Self-Targetting Moves

[Mulan15262]

Heal Block on your own team could mess up a player that calculates what KOes instead of using KO subs could be harmed by it, so it has a point.

About Poison Gas, I proposed removing that part of the move. Being incapable of poisoning yourself with toxic gasses you made doesn't make much sense imo, although that could be argued. With how Poison Gas(self) is allowed, but has no effect, I see no point in allowing it.

About Helping Hand, Attract, etc., I was merely saying that, in my opinion, having next to no use for them when self-targeted should not be used as an argument for banning them since some ( not Attract, and possibly some others, I know that) have an incredibly rare and minor use, but it still exists. For example, Reflect Type(self) could prolong type-changing effects. Helping Hand(self) could be used in a combination to increase priority of a move.

According to the NDA, Imprison targets all foes.

Also, moves like Sunny Day are said to target the Entire Battle, and moves like Crafty Shield are said to target All Allies, so I thought that was different from field-targeting. In that area, I did make a mistake, but I do not think that using more time would have fixed that. I also meant that there should not be a blanket ban on all of them. Most wouldn't have a target (i.e. weather/terrain/room moves), but the ones that would target specific pokemon should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, in my opinion, instead of being banned without consideration.

About entry hazadrs, either one of us made a typo, or we agree on that subject.


I see the logic behind your suggestion that I lurk in ASB, more, though. I think I'll wait some more time before re-joining this discussion, unless someone replies to something I said, asks for my opinion (why that would happen, I don't know), or asks for more opinions and I've thought of something unstated (that I have thought about, not a "knee-jerk reaction").

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

The NDA is both accurate and inaccurate regarding Imprison, all foes are affected but the move is self-targetting. The effects of the move remain even if a different Pokemon is facing the opponent.

I can't actually decipher the meaning of the Heal Block sentence but I see zero reason to allow it.

Field effects by definition do not target specific Pokemon.

I typoed entry hazards, disagree with allowing them.

That and everything else can be up for discussion.


For anyone yet to post, please comment on the merits of whitelist/blacklist and the content of the lists.

 

[Mulan15262]

I was saying that, if a person figures out what will KO the opponent and does not use KO subs, while your pokemon has recovery due to leftovers/aqua ring/etc., you could mess him up by using heal block on your own team, which might cause him to attack a fainted pokemon (although it would only work in doubles and larger formats and would harm you if other pokemon on your team were relying on healing).

I was using that part about field effects to explain that it shouldn't be banned (since some field effects would target a side and using them on your side is self-targeting, afaik, and other ones have no target so it doesn't matter).

My arguments for allowing self-inflicted entry hazards is that Sticky Web can lower speed, increasing power of Gyro Ball, making your Aegislash move second more frequently to allow it to take more attacks in shield form, and making you effectively faster in Trick Room. Toxic Spikes can activate Toxic Boost, Poison Heal, Guts, etc. on pokemon switching in. Stealth Rock and Spikes would damage your pokemon, which is a bad idea, so they won't be used much (perhaps as a deterrent for your foe to use Defog, but that's very situational for gaining from that with it working). Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes would be beneficial, in some scenarios that are easily possible to encounter, and not broken (unless poison and less speed has an effect I can't think of, or I missed a part of the description or either move). The entry hazards could be disposed of by Rapid Spin, Defog, or Rebound if no longer wanted (although the last one is exclusive to Coloshale and Colosoil). They can already be done in a situational setting (against a Magic Bounce pokemon), but not freely.

 

[Gerard]

If you had time to use Heal Block then you had time to attack (even use a combo) that will screw your opponent more than attacking a fainted mon, which doesn't even hurt them, if your opponent attacks a fainted mon, doesn't that mean that one of your own pokemon bit the dust? They will be losing energy, yeah... but they would have anyway if they attacked your pokemon. A living pokemon is always better than a fainted one and even sub stalling is better than fainting unless that would mean your remaining pokemon would have a hard time coming (hazards, set up, subs, weather, etc...).

The only one I disagree with is hazards, I think Self Poison Spikes have the potential to be pretty good on a Guts / Toxic Boost / Facade Spam team, and Sticky Web being ok in a TR team (probably not worth it though). SR & regular Spikes though seem pretty useless. Allow them imo.

 

[Ute]

Other than Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web the list looks great from a flavor perspective.

From a Balance perspective I don't see any of these (except Telekinesis and maybe Simple Beam) used much aside from status activated abilities and Smeargle.

Simple Beam (self) could be powerful if multiple boosting moves are used but the difference between Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance ~ Attack and Simple Beam ~ Swords Dance ~ Attack is five Energy. If you want two or more turns worth of boosting Simple Beam (self) is the way to do it. Also the only Pokemon with Simple Beam and Stored Power are Natu, Xatu, and Smeargle (and Natu/Xatu want Magic Bounce). I personally think Simple Beam (self) is fine but feel free to argue.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Okay so I'm thinking we vote on this list and send the entry hazards and Telekinesis to a vote if white list black list is accepted white list/black list.
k frosty also wants toxic and will o wisp b/c orbs

Know who agrees? Top men.

Top. Men.




So they be going to a vote.

 

[Frosty]

and poisonpowder and other moves that only induce poison.