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SM OU Serpent's Venom (top 30, 85.5% gxe)

Discussion in 'SM OU Teams' started by xKnight, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. xKnight

    xKnight

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    upload_2017-11-14_23-3-14.png
    Introduction
    After spamming the combination of sash double hazard gren and sub dd zygarde on the ladder with numerous teams, such as the ABR-Bro fist wcop finals team, and Empo's offense, I thought of using a similar strategy with an old favorite, sub-seed serperior. I thought sub-seed serp could abuse toxic spikes in a similar manner to how sub+dd+tect zygarde does, with additional passive damage in leech seed. I have been using this team for a very long time and thought of this idea myself, which I wanted to note because I have seen sub-seed serp + tspikes used in smogon snake draft, so I just want to make it clear that I did not steal the idea, as I made this team before snake even started. Now I will go into my team choices. TLDR- sub-seed serp + t-spikes

    Prook of Rank

    upload_2017-11-14_22-22-56.png
    upload_2017-11-14_22-22-16.png

    Team Building
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    First, I just want to mention that I have gone through a lot of different versions and have tested numerous mons on this team, such as waterium-z ash-gren, gliscor, tapu bulu, alakazam, skarmory, and plenty of others, so I will just be discussing the final version. So, after serp, I looked through the list of toxic spikers and decided on toxapex rather than something like nihilego or greninja, mainly because I thought pex could support serp well defensively by checking threats that trouble serp, such as zard-y, non-psychium volcarona, venusaur, and weavile. At this point I am extremely weak to pinsir, lele, bulu, and common scarfers such as lando-t, kartana, and latios, so I felt that celesteela was a perfect fit to cover defensive weaknesses of the team. At this point I was leaning toward a balanced approach, and I decided I wanted to go with a full on hazard stacking route, since my team really appreciates the passive damage, which brings me to my favorite member and arguable mvp of the team, spikes greninja. I decided on this mon for the next slot, since it gives me some nice speed, helps me revenge lando-t, and gives me a good way of applying offensive pressure, and gives me a great lure which I will explain below. Next, I added Mega-Camerupt, which was a perfect fit, since it gave me a good response to electrics, and a magearna check, and a great nuke. Lastly, I added calm mind clefable, which is my response to zygarde, and other threats like lopunny, while also being a great wincon.

    Team Breakdown
    [​IMG]
    Serperior @ Leftovers
    Ability: Contrary
    EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed
    The star of the show and the mon I built around, sub-seed serp. I just used the standard ev spread, and it is max speed timid for obvious reasons, you need to outspeed base 110s and below. The 56 hp is from the oras spread, but I just kept it since the bulk can come in handy at times. This mon works similarly to oras. Set up a substitute on something you force out, such as tapu fini, then leech seed after they go into something like celesteela or heatran, then spam substitute as they break your sub while getting most of your health back with leech seed and leftovers. Also, in the case of heatran, if they only have magma storm to break your sub, you can even fish for a miss since you're protected by a sub anyway. This gives me some good speed, revenges sd kartana, applies a lot of offensive pressure, and can potentially sweep late game.

    [​IMG]
    Toxapex @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Toxic \ Haze
    - Recover
    - Toxic Spikes
    Now on to the t-spiker, and a good source of defensive support for serperior, checking important threats I mentioned above such as zard-y and weavile. The reason I opted for the Bold spread is to better take on physical threats, charizard-x in particular. Which is why toxic is an option over haze. But I will leave it up to you as both are fine options on this team, and both have been successful for me. Honestly, in a lot of games, I mainly use this just to absorb and set up t-spikes, and setting up a t-spike vs offensive teams is usually all it needs to do in those matchups. Another very important factor is that pex effectively pp stall venusaur (if its not leech seed), which is a massive roadblock for serp. You can also fish for scald burns on venusaur, scizor, etc. We all know what this thing does by now. (Feel free to make this more spdef for ash gren and volc if you want to)


    [​IMG]
    Celesteela @ Leftovers
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Heavy Slam
    - Flamethrower
    Next up is celesteela, which now forms the famous cele-pex core, able to handle a plethora of threats in the metagame together. This mon is absolutely essential for dealing with threats I mentioned above, especially pinsir, lele, latios, diancie, and scarf lando-t. This member has been extremely helpful vs offensive teams, being able to check common ho threats such as mimikyu, while also stalling them with leech seed and poison. Gives me a fantastic ground immunity and another way to abuse the t-spike with leech seed and protect.

    [​IMG]
    Greninja @ Psychium Z
    Ability: Protean
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Spikes
    - Ice Beam
    - Extrasensory
    - Hydro Pump
    Now for the coolest, and arguably most important, member of the team. This gives me a great spiker that allows me to hazard stack my opponent and even trade spikes, in which case I generally win thanks to celesteela and magic guard clefable being excellent in such matches. Ice beam is just a solid, reliable move to hit zygarde, garchomp, latios, tangrowth, zapdos, etc. Hydro Pump is great for hitting heatran and diancie in particular, and a rare marowak. The last move, extrasensory, paired with Psychium z, is easily the most important slot here, and synergizes extremely well with the first 3 members. Its mainly just there to hit poisons, venusaur and toxapex in particular. If your able to kill venusaur, serperior can have a field day, celesteela can leech seed more freely, and toxapex's t-spikes might just be there to stay. If your able to kill toxapex, your own toxapex becomes more problematic, and it also frees up celesteela as the opponent won't be able to go to their pex and scald fish. Z-Extrasensory doesn't ohko venusaur or spdef pex, so u need to get just a little bit of chip to ohko those. This is a fantastic bluff as well since you can play it as if you're scarfed and then fire off ur z-move when the opportunity arises. There's some really cool stuff you can do with this, like get an unexpected kill on your opponent's team if the opponent's lele sets up psychic terrain, with a boosted shattered psyche. I just gotta say that I never saw this gren set before and I thought of it myself so I think I can call it my own innovation.

    [​IMG]
    Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
    Ability: Magma Armor
    EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Rock Slide
    - Stealth Rock
    Now for the rocker, and mega, of choice, camerupt, which finds its way on to the team mainly as a way to check electrics such as koko and zapdos. Standard ground-fire STAB coverage that make this mon a nuke. Rock Slide hits zard y, and gives me some extra insurance against volcarona since +1 hp ground does only (61.9 - 73.4%). Modest with max special attack for maximum power. The speed is for toxapex, and the rest are dumped into hp. Very helpful for breaking, and also can get up rocks against sableye, which is very helpful against stall.

    [​IMG]
    Clefable @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Moonblast
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Calm Mind
    - Knock Off \ Stored Power
    Now for the final member, and glue, of the team. Clefable is my response for threats such as zygarde and lopunny. It also gives me another answer to zapdos and mew, using them as setup fodder, while checking non-flash cannon magearna, and even using the av version as setup fodder. This also lures in heatran effectively and can knock it off, which really helps my first 3 members. It can also knock celesteela, which helps serp stall it out. This is also good in the stall matchup, especially since you can knock off the opponents unaware clef, which is nice for your own clef, and serp. Knock off can be changed to stored power, but I find the knock off to be very useful. This is really just a great emergency button as well that can just win games a lot of times. I just want to note that certain venusaur builds can be tough for this team to break, so clefable can generally win those games, especially if you knock off the celesteela's leftiez (if they even have one); generally in those games I put myself in position to win with clef, and it should win barring a sludge bomb crit from venusaur, but the crit seems to always happen sadly (but you win in theory lol), which is stupid because I literally never get the crit on clef when I use venusaur, but it always crits my clef, but I won't rant about ladder luck here.

    Threats

    The biggest threat to this team in my experience is magnezone based strategies, so magnezone in conjunction with pinsir, bulu, lele, salamence, etc is a huge problem. While most threats can be played around, there sometimes isn't much I can do against magnezone teams, which is a weakness of a lot of celesteela teams. Another big threat is medicham, which is deadly against almost any team without mew, sableye, or reuniclus. Hoopa is also a major nuisance because my defensive core cannot really handle it very well. CM Mega Latias is also a major threat as it can potentially sweep my entire team. SD z-move kartana is also a dangerous breaker because it threatens my entire defensive core. Tapu koko is also a nuisance since my only koko counter is camerupt, so if its paired with mantine, it can be very rough since mantine completely walls camerupt; its also dangerous with spikes support since camerupt gets worn down easier. Other breakers such as offensive lando with smack down or gravity, band tar, and life orb kyurem are also very tough to deal with. There are probably more threats worth mentioning since there are so many mons out there, but I just discussed what I felt were the biggest ones.

    Importable

    https://pastebin.com/PU9cUpGN
    http://pokepast.es/e8c00f419904ab6c
    Replays
    Here are some replays of the team in action. I didn't save a lot and I have a bunch of alts so you'll see different names.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-659530255
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-649886755
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-659567001
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-651003346



    Conclusion
    This team has been a blast to both build and use. I feel that the gren set in particular gives it creativity as well. I want to note that the team isn't helmet by any means and can be difficult to use, requiring you to manage your resources, especially the z-move, very carefully. The team is all about passive damage, and each member of the team contributes to, and benefits from this passive damage (serp-subseed, pex-tspike and scald burn, steela-leech and protect, gren- spikes, camel-rocks, clef-knock). I will admit that serp + tspikes don't often work in games as well as zygarde + tspikes do, but the team still does fine overall. I actually got a bit higher than in the picture I posted, and I was about 20 points away from top 10, but then I tilted off again lol, but the pictures I posted were the only ones I took. I feel that this team can get to top 10, especially since I was so close, but I plan to leave the game after this RMT, so I won't likely ever play again. I figured I might as well just leave behind all my good teams for whoever wants them, http://pokepast.es/ddd3fd73ec0ccdeb. So I guess this will be my farewell to pokemon. ENJOY the team, and good bye.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017 at 1:30 AM
    Essence, blarghlfarghl and YvelGod like this.
  2. DragonKnightmaster

    DragonKnightmaster

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    114
    This team looks really solid.

    797.png
    One thing that could help though might be adding Earthquake on Celesteela over heavy slam.
    This would be to hit
    Magnezone, which could get ohko'd after chip damage if it switches in.

    It also hits Heatran, which the team doesnt really like switching into, especially Groundium Z/Taunt variants.


    748.png
    I would definetely run Toxic on Toxapex for Charizard and Mega Latias since it always takes a +1 T-bolt or Stored power, and can put them on a convenient timer.

    I dont see much else I can change without opening weaknesses to the team, so I hope this was helpful :]
  3. legend slayer

    legend slayer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    329
    I would suggest making clefable into scarf lele as pex handles lop p well, and lele with focus blast his magndzone, which dragon mentioned needs to be covered. Also p weak to megacham, so this helps
    DragonKnightmaster likes this.
  4. xKnight

    xKnight

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Eq is a great idea, which is something I never thought of, and would really help with dealing with magnezone, and snipe heatran, which I struggle to switch into. And with just 28 evs in atk, it has a good chance to ohko 140 hp magnezone after a spike (28 Atk Celesteela Earthquake vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 268-316 (84.8 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes). So I could just drop 28 def evs for atk to add eq. I also agree toxic is good, but haze has been important in some situations, and I can't really drop tspikes, recover, or scald, so there will always be an important move missing, maybe scald can go. Unfortunately, I won't be playing anymore to test these changes tho, but it would be good for someone who might use the team. Thanks anyway
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
    DragonKnightmaster likes this.
  5. xKnight

    xKnight

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    I get what u mean here, as I usually have a scarfer on most of my teams, as I usually use BO or balance. However, if I remove clef for scarf lele, I become much weaker to zygarde, and I struggle even more to win against certain venusaur balances and stall, especially since they often have av gear or celesteela, while clef can often just save games and come through against a lot of these fatter teams while being a more solid response to zygarde. I also didn't feel the need for a scarfer on this team as I felt I could compensate with the team's high amount of bulk. Medicham is a big threat but I wouldnt say its the worst thing, I can generally manage medi teams if I play well. Thanks anyway for the rate
    DragonKnightmaster likes this.
  6. legend slayer

    legend slayer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    329
    clef definitely doesnt help v venu builds, as they are celevenupex lol, which all can 1v1 it. 2nd off, lele grants ur team much needed speed, and ur doing something wrong if ur av gear check is clef, as most have flash cannon m8. pex also is used as a special wall these days, that a old spread, and he can eat anything from av mag, as regen will recover back dmg from v switch even.
  7. xKnight

    xKnight

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    There's a lot of false things here. Venusaur does not 1v1 cm clef if venu is not already in, in which case clef won't stay in anyway (it cant switchin and beat cm clef). Barring crits, if a clef cm's on the switch to venusaur, venu is just setup fodder, which happens all the time in tour games (example- flamingvictini vs leftiez in snake tour, and plenty more from this and last gen), and ladder play. Av gear almost always runs iron head > flash cannon now (see smogon set, or literally any recent tour game with av gear, like smogon snake draft), which is to beat cm gear 1v1, allowing av gear to check every offensive gear. Pex is commonly used as a special wall, but the set can be adjusted to fit the particular team, as phys def pex is still quite popular, and yes I agree it does beat av mag. When I said clef checks non-flash cannon magearna above, I was referring to offensive variants, like cm bolt beam, but camerupt checks offensive gear anyway. Av mag isnt a threat at all to this team, as its beaten by pex, and clef, and even camerupt. Also, cm clef still beats av mag with flash cannon, as flash cannon doesn't do much after a cm (if av mag switches in on a cm, u cm again as they flash, now they're setup fodder, same as with venu), and I've actually setup and won vs av mag plenty of times. Also, venu builds are generally not celevenupex, definitely not. I have never seen venu + pex in a decent part of the ladder or in tour games. Common venu builds either have venu-steela + clef (typically rocks), such as this common team http://pokepast.es/4d8b9a64af4dd68d, or they have venu + av gear, which, barring crits both get setup on and beaten by cm clef as they switchin. Even if its iron head, 0 Atk Magearna Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. so clef actually is very, very good against venu builds. Also, if they have a celesteela, I just need to catch it with a knock off, either on their switchin, or I knock off as they heavy slam and double into my clef on something it can heal on later in the match. After celesteela loses its leftiez, over the course of a long game, its not that difficult to wear down for clef. This team has actually never lost to a venusaur build, which I've run into multiple times, barring sludge bomb crit (which is technically a loss, but not mine or the teams fault bc cant control rng). So the statement that 'clef definitely doesnt help v venu builds, as they are celevenupex lol' and 'ur doing something wrong if ur av gear check is clef, as most have flash cannon m8' is simply false. Also, lele doesnt give me the zygarde switchin I need, as zygarde if played well can get a kill almost every time with lele > clef. Cm knock clef is also good vs stall, esp in conjunction with serp, since knocking off unaware clef with my clef makes it easier to wear down and stall out of wish with my clef + serp (side note- if they are running a different variant without clef, like quag stall, serp breaks thru even more easily), so replacing clef with lele hurts the stall matchup as well. I also dont need the speed on this particular team as I can compensate with bulk as I said before and being able to switchin to zygarde reliably is just too important. Pretty much every good team always has a good zygarde switchin (barring like ho), and serp isnt very reliable for this because it cant take on outrage variants, especially dragon-z. Not trying to come off as rude, and I appreciate the rate, but you should first run calcs, or use tour games, or even personal experience in higher ladder (I've used all 3) before making claims
    DragonKnightmaster likes this.

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