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Serperior (BW2 Update) [QC 0/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by sickweare, May 28, 2013.

  1. sickweare

    sickweare

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    Hey guys this is my first attempt at an analysis so let me know the best ways to improve it!

    [​IMG]
    snakes r cool

    [Overview]

    • First thing you notice is its high base speed, which outspeeds some of the most prominent threats in the current metagame including the two most important: Jynx and Scolipede
    • Niche as fast, decently bulky offensive grass type with access to set up moves to remedy its modest attacking stats in Calm Mind and Coil
    • Access to a ton of support options from Taunt and glare to Leech Seed and Dual Screens
    • May not seem like a great offensive threat but it is thanks to its combined attributes
    • Downsides include it’s relatively shallow movepool,
    • It gets worn down rather easily through Spikes and Toxic Spikes
    • Cannot hit hard right off the bat

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Substitute / Taunt
    move 4: Hidden Power Rock
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • This set aims to set up on any Pokemon Serperior can force out, such as Defensive Seismitoad
    • Great for late-game sweeping
    • The main draw to Serperior lies in its wonderful speed allowing it to set up rather easily
    • Its meager Special Attack stat is patched up by Calm Mind which also increases its special bulk, making its substitute (if used) more durable against special attackers who think they can wreak havoc like Jynx or Rotom-S
    • Substitute is generally the better option as it blocks certain status moves that others will try to lay on it, as well as putting it into Overgrow range
    • Taunt pushes away status moves as well without cutting into Seperior's valuable HP. It also helps in preventing SR from getting set up, which further aids its temamates who may be weak to it
    • Giga Drain is the most important move because it is STAB and it recovers the health Serp will lose, and in Overgrow range with Life Orb it reaches an astounding 135 BP without STAB factored in
    • Hidden Power Rock looks unappealing because of the 30 Speed IVs it requires, but it still outspeeds Scolipede who just misses out on Serp.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • HP Fire and HP Ice are both good options, but thanks to Scolipede and Jynx’s omnipresence in the metagame and Serperior’s ability to take them out, Rock is preferred. It also nails Flying types that resist Serperior’s STAB, especially Charizard who is only hit neutrally by HP Ice.
    • Serperior needs its counters out of the way to be able to sweep like every good set up sweeper. Metang does not care about this set at all as it resist grass and rock and is very bulky with eviolite. For this reason an offensive fire type such as Charizard or Simisear would make a good teammate wile also having good type synergy with Serperior.
    • Stealth Rock is almost mandatory in every game, and it’s no different for Serperior, guaranteeing the KO on Scolipede at +1 and birds such as scarf Braviary and Swellow are hit by rocks unlike spikes. A good setter such as Golurk or Golem is important. Golem has sturdy which almost guarantees rocks, while Golurk is a solid choice who *can come in easily with its many resistances and immunities.
    • Since Spikes are very viable in this metagame, Scolipede makes a good teammate, also taking on Primeape’s U-turn and some bug type attacks aimed towards Serperior. Spikes help wear down the likes of Sawk, who could otherwise take on Serperior rather well. Scolipede has the extra privelage of absorbing toxic spikes in the case that they find their way on your side of the field.
    • Serperior takes on electric and grass types well and has a tough time with some fire types, so pairing it with a water type like Samurott provides decent offensive and defensive synergy.
    • Life Orb offers much needed power to its attacks, but leftovers are a good option if you want to have more time setting up, although Serperior will do much less damage this way.


    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Reflect
    move 2: Light Screen
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Giga Drain
    item: Light Clay
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • This set looks to support its teammates by cushioning the opponent’s attacks on both Serperior and its teammates
    • Serperior is fast, and decently bulky so it makes a great candidate for Dual Screens
    • This set works for offensive teams well, because it gets up screens fast and supports with a decent defensive typing for the team to fall back on
    • Its speed almost guarantees a Reflect or Light Screen
    • Dual Screens are found on many Pokemon, but the main reason to use Serperior is its greater speed and good bulk compared to other screen setters

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Since Serperior will be supporting the rest of the team, it is important to make sure it beats out other Taunt users such as Electrode with a teammate. Golurk and Golem can tank an HP Ice and OHKO back.
    • Serperior puts the screens up quickly, and by that time a switch in will usually be there to break it down. Scarf Jynx appreciates the help from dual screens and can take on many threats to Serperior, like Scolipede and many other Jynx. Scarf Primeape can also be good for taking on other Jynx that try to send your team to Sleep thanks to Vital Spirit.
    • A good addition would be a Pokemon to keep fire types in their place. Carracosta can set up rocks, or threaten them with Aqua Jet so it is a good teammate.
    • A bulkier EV spread could be used, but it loses its value as a fast Dual Screens setter, and is less useful on offensive teams
    • Serperior wants to help its team and its useful resistances are appreciated by Water types like the aforementioned Carracosta and Simipour. Serperior can also help Pokemon that are threatened by Ground type attacks, such as Zebstrika.
    • Dragon Tail could be used with a Jolly nature to force out switch ins who think they can take on Serperior, but it lacks STAB and has negative priority which isn't very good for a Pokemon who wants to give support as quickly as it can.

    [SET]
    name: Coil
    move 1: Coil
    move 2: Leaf Blade
    move 3: Dragon Tail / Aqua Tail
    move 4: Substitute / Synthesis
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Coil is a really cool set up move for Physical Serperior, as it increases physical bulk while also making it a lot stronger
    • Might look inferior to Sawsbuck as a physical sweeper, but it has greater speed and bulk and access to dragon tail to force out its switch-ins
    • Competes with Torterra as bulky physical attacker, but having good speed without having to set it up makes it different in this respect.
    • Serperior also has good coverage with Aqua Tail to take down things like Physically Defensive Torkoal
    • Coil is the main move to this set, as it is unique and Serperior is almost tailored to fit it with its average Attack and good Defense
    • Leaf Blade is the only viable physical STAB that Serperior receives outside of Seed Bomb which has a lower BP
    • Dragon Tail takes out Physical Serperior's common checks and counters like Tangela, forcing your opponent to play mind games with it
    • Aqua Tail has great coverage, taking out Fire types
    • The choice between Substitue and Synthesis is difficult, as Substitute blocks status and brings Serp to Overgrow range, but it is very easily worn down this way
    • Synthesis finally gives physical Serperior reliable recovery thanks to the BW2 Move Tutors, but leaves it open to status moves like Taunt and Thunder Wave
    • Leftovers can be used over Life Orb to set up more, but Synthesis helps retain its health without losing power

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • EVs are standard for a physical sweeper, but a bulkier set could be used with leftovers for a more defensively oriented team
    • Serperior has a shallow physical movepool, with its only other options including Return, Outrage, and Aerial Ace which don’t help Serperior out very much. AErial Ace could be used to hit opposing grass types, however.
    • Help from Fire types to clear out grass types, like Tangela who walls this set really badly, as well as Steel types are always nice. Extra mention to Charizard goes here as one of the few really good offensive fire types.
    • A cleric, such as Lickilicky, would be nice if running Synthesis, since Serperior will hate being statused, especially Paralyzed.

    [Other Options]

    • Despite shallow offensive movepool, Serperior has a ton of support options to utilize
    • Glare is cool, but gimmicky as there are better parashufflers in the tier
    • It gets Mean Look but has nothing else to go along with it to warrant a set
    • Gastro Acid to force switches
    • Knock off could be used on most sets, but Serperior has valuable moveslots and Knock Off is situational at best
    • RestTalk is an option for phasing, but, again, there are other things that can shuffle better and Serperior does have reliable recovery in Synthesis
    • Serperior receives Growth, but it’s done by Chlorophyll users who benefit more from the sun
    • Aromatherapy was distributed, but requires a Hardy Nature which is bad for almost any Pokemon
    • Swords Dance is cool option, but grass types like Sawsbuck and Leavanny do it better thanks to good coverage and Coil is better suited to Serperior’s stats
    • A specially offensive set with Leaf Storm with Life Orb or Choice Specs could be used as it is strong, but it is way too easily worn down if hazards are taken into effect, and would be much better if Serperior had Contrary yet.

    [Checks and Counters]

    • Serperior lacks the ability to get past many grass types in the tier like Tangela and Roselia until it has accumulated a lot of boosts. Exeggutor is a good counter as it takes little damge from HP Rock and can hit back with STAB Psychic coming off 125 base SpA
    • Skuntank is a great check to Serperior, taking little damage from any move the snake can throw at it, while also being able to Taunt or hit SE with Poison Jab
    • Metang laughs at anything Serperior does
    • Serperior hates Sap Sippers
    • SubBU Braviary takes little damage from Serperior (even after a boost) and can Roost+BU and take out Serperior from there
    • Anything that phazes is a pain for Serperior since it needs to set up most of the time to be really useful, but sets using taunt will not have to worry about this as it prevents phazers from doing their job
    • Muk and Weezing can take on both sets well
    • Serperior hates status and Toxic Spikes which both wear it down
    • Dragonair is pretty resilient against Serperior and can use rest to laugh more at its attacks.
    • Lickilicky and Zweilous are bulky and can both dragon tail Serperior out.
    • Arbok takes on Serperior well with good bulk and resistance to its attacks, as well as a strong Gunk Shot that can take down Serperior.

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Contrary is an ability that we've been waiting a long time for Serperior to receive. It essentially inverts stat boosts and reductions, so +1 becomes -1 and vice versa. Serperior receives only one move to work well with Contrary: Leaf Storm. Gaining a +2 boost after a 140 BP STAB move makes Serperior a fearsome special sweeper that will likely crawl its way out of the Neverused tier. </p>
  2. Asbestospoison

    Asbestospoison

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    In the CM Set, I would slash Leftovers with Life Orb (instead of just AC). It seems like a viable option if you want more time to set up. Same thing with Coil. Those are the only two things I've noticed, but I'll look more closely when I have a chance.
  3. The NU Tuber

    The NU Tuber

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    I think you could trim down the Overview a bit. Just talk about Serp's role in the meta (sweeper, supporter), how well he performs (I recommend this thread for that kind of info), and try not to mention obvious and specific things about Serp like his base stats. You can talk about the importance of his Speed tier (which you did) but don't go much farther than that.

    Also, give a big mention to Toxic Spikes/status in general in c&c, as status pretty much always ruins his sweep.
  4. sickweare

    sickweare

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    Alright I made a few edits implementing the changes stated above. I cut out a few points in the overview that were rather unnecessary. Let me know what else you find!
  5. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    I know you haven't written it yet, but the current overview skeleton you have doesn't fit what we're looking for anymore. Talk about Serperiors role in the metagame (faster than Scoli and Jynx, hits hard enough to be relevant). The last 2 points in particular don't add much (even though it does have a cool design)


    For the CM set:
    • Mention that HP Rock is chosen because it hits Zard as well, or else I would use HP Fire to hit Grasses. Zard is a big reason for HP Rock
    • You don't need to mention Leaf Storm or the EVs on this set. They are both self explanatory.
    • that is redundant. List what takes out its counters if you're going to include it.
    • What extra KOs does it get?
    • What KOs does Spikes get?
    • Is a spinblocker that important? If it gets a super important KO they are valuable, but we need to know what those KOs are.
    For the SubSeed set:

    • expand on teammates again. What stops serperior (Other Grasses). What beats those (Jynx, Charizard)
    • EVs dont need to be mentioned if its just 252/252. Only if theyre meant to do something specific.
    For the Dual Screens set:

    • This needs a lot of work, you need to mention what kind of team this Serperior would be on, what teammates benefit from this set. You won't find this set on a balanced team, it is solely offensive, but that isn't stated anywhere. List some sweepers that work well with Serp's screens.
    • Also Light Clay > leftovers

    For the Coil set:

    • I really can't comment on this at all because I've never seen it. How does it work in this meta? I don't have an opinion on it.

    For OO:
    • Add an offensive Leaf Storm set, it hits hard off the bat and is a cool hit and run mon.

    For Checks and Counters:
    • I'd add Arbok as well. Most Grass resists will do very well as long as they arent Rock weak. I'd add Eggy to the list of grass-types
  6. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    Raseri did a really good job outlining all of the main points, but I'd like to highlight your teammate sections, most of which are really, really lacking. You mention Spikes and Stealth Rock in every single one - yes, while they are good for every sweeper, I'm pretty sure every other analysis on-site specifically says that you should pair x Pokemon with Golem and Garbodor for Stealth Rock and Spikes because it eases the sweep. Unless there are any specific KOes it gets or the Pokemon performs exceptionally well with a lot of hazards or a certain kind of them (bulky Pokemon often work well with Toxic Spikes, etc) then you honestly shouldn't have to mention them. Further, you don't have to explicitly mention a spinblocker at all.

    If we're to cut most mentions of Spikes (you can keep a brief mention of Stealth Rock, since it shaves 25% off of Fire-, Flying-, and Bug-types which all resist its STAB), your teammate section is very sparse and general. In total, all you mentioned are Water- and Fire-types for type synergy (and I would argue that Water-types aren't particularly great partners for Serperior in general, too).

    Good teammate sections go hand-in-hand with good checks and counters sections - which Pokemon does Serperior have the most trouble with? Outside of the blatantly obvious counters (Roselia), are there any Pokemon that Serperior cannot OHKO even after a boost that OHKO it or do a significant amount of damage in return (I'm thinking CB Sawk, Fraxure, Armaldo, Kangaskhan, Ludicolo, Gurdurr...)? Are there any teammates who can reliably switch in on these Pokemon and beat them? Does Serperior do anything important for them (ie beat most dangerous Water-, Rock-, and Ground-types like Samurott, Regirock, Golurk)? Can Serperior be especially effective with this Pokemon? Teammates that beat counters are even more important - apart from generally saying "Fire-types", what Pokemon do well against Roselia or Vileplume? If Toxic Spikes beat Serperior, should you mention Poison-type teammates (hint: these beat Rose / Vileplume)? Should you mention a Heal Bell user because it's susceptible to status (hint: no, you can make a brief mention but you don't need to because it's not that bothered)? I'm not going to tell you exactly what to add because if you do want to work on writing more analyses this is something you have to learn to take note of and pay attention to (and you can certainly come up with different suggestions than I would, so we'd have an even better bunch of teammates to list!) - if you have any questions or if you want me to look over your suggested changes after taking these questions into mind, feel free to let me know and I'd love to do it.

    Also, in the future, please post in the Index thread when you put up your skeleton (and when this is finished being written and has both GP checks). It helps me a ton, so I don't have to go through and individually check each thread.
  7. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    [Overview]
    • Remove the part of it having a cool design. I do think it has a cool design, but that sounds like fluff in the making. Basically sentences that don't contain actual information on the Pokemon would be removed or kept to a minimum for these.

    [SET] (Calm Mind)
    • The order of the moves could use some work. Moves order is determined by the importance of the move to the set. Since the set is a Calm Mind one, having Calm Mind as move 1 makes sense. Move 2 should be Giga Drain as its a huge reason as to why Serperior can be really annoying to take down; its STAB heals it while damaging. Move 3 should be Substitute / Taunt and move 4 should be Hidden Power Rock.

    • I think Life Orb should be the only item on Serperior. With Giga Drain as its STAB move of choice it doesn't really miss the extra 6% a turn from Leftovers. Not only that but without Life Orb Serperior is actually really weak and has to spend more time setting up, which Leftovers doesn't help enough to warrant using it.

    [SET COMMENTS] (Calm Mind)
    • Add how Taunt prevents Stealth Rock from being set up as Serperior generally has a really good match up to common Stealth Rock users thanks to its Grass-typing. Taunt also allows it to beat other Calm Mind Pokemon such as Musharna, Gardevoir, and Duosion 1v1 while stopping phazing from the likes of Bastiodon, Altaria, and Misdreavus (Perish Song).

    • Remove the explanation of its EV spread. That belongs in Additional Comments, but the EV spread is generic enough that it doesn't need to be explained there either.


    I'm not very keen on the other sets so I'll only make a few changes to them.

    • Remove Toxic from Dual Screens's move 4. Giga Drain is miles better thanks to allowing Serp to check common Stealth Rock users and prevent set up alongside Taunt.

    • Remove the part about fast Taunt users in C&C. Electrode is in no way a counter at all to Serp or even a a good check really. Not to mention that outside of there are no viable Taunt users faster than Serperior outside of Electrode. Persian is simply terrible. Do include however that Skuntank is an excellent check to Serperior as it takes little from Giga Drain or Hidden Power Rock and can retaliate with a Poison Jab.

    • Remove Roar users from C&C. Replace with phazers and mention how Taunt sets don't have to worry about them due to since Taunt prevents the phazing moves from working.

    K that's what I got for now. Sorry to overwhelm you, but please implement these.
  8. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Double posting because I think this posts requires its own separate attention rather than just being edited into my last post.

    I don't think that SubSeed Serperior is a good set at all. While its fast and has Taunt, the SubSeed strategy in general is very poor, specially on Pokemon like Serperior who have to real way of damaging opposing Grass-type Pokemon. The only viable SubSeed Pokemon that I can think of are Exeggutor and and maybe Tropius, but this is because they have STAB moves that can do damage to Grass-type Pokemon. Dual Screens and Coil are 100% more useful than SubSeed will ever be really, and the set has no way of dealing any real damage outside of Leech Seed.

    QC Reject 1/3 on SubSeed.
  9. sickweare

    sickweare

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    Thank you all for your replies it is really helping out to write/understand this!
    I will take some time to try and rework through the skeleton to make it fit under your criteria and expand on teammates among other things you all have mentioned.

    Extra mentions of Charizard for HP Rock is obvious I can't believe I didn't mention that, I'll list out more checks and counters as well as expanding the general set comments.

    I'm on crunch time as of now with life so I can't respond on the sub seed set just yet.

    EDIT: I made some bigger changes, mostly for the CM set, but I also expanded all AC comments as well as implemented the above changes. I added more Pokemon to the Checks and Counters (Should I add Scolipede to non-HP Rock/Fire sets?) as well as trying to remove redundant mentions of Spikes and Stealth Rock only where it was important.

    CM Set: Added more substance to team set up rather than general terms. Moved Leftovers to AC, removed mentions of unimportant things like Leaf Storm. Detailed general cmments such as hazard support and team support. Emphasized importance of HP Rock. Emphasized SR KO's (Scolipede, Jynx)

    SubSeed: This one was hard, but I trie adding as much as I could think for the set comments and the AC. I've been thinking HP Fire/Ice is better than Taunt but I'm not quite sure.

    Dual Screens: (One of my favorite sets actually). Silly mistake with Leftovers, changed it to Light Clay (sorry about that). Removed Toxic from all areas mentioned. Added its place on an offensive team and added who it supports well, while also adding who supports it well. Still the AC feels a little empty and I feel that I'm forgetting something I just don't know what.

    Coil: Not a whole lot of feedback, but I did add more to AC. Do you think Synthesis fits well? I know it is valuable thanks to Life Orb damage and no giga drain but it loses out to Taunt/Substitute benefits.

    C&C: Major additions (best counter is actually Muk I think). Added a lot of mentions to Pokemon who take pitiful damage from its attacks.

    About the sub-seed set, I originally set it up to be the last set in the analysis, but I talked to Zeb and he said he wanted the order to be CM/SubSeed/Dual Screens/Coil. The main draw to subseed Serperior is its greater seed which eases off the pressure when setting up as the fast sub can easily let you scout. I do think on defensive teams eggy and tangela would be a better option mainly for their greater bulk, but Serperior definitely has its merits for running subseed and I believe it should stay.

    Please let me know everything you guys think, I really want to improve this and analysis writing in general. Thanks again.
  10. sickweare

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  11. Hollywood

    Hollywood +NUD Bisharp: costa is outclasssed by seis
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    QC Reject 2/3 for SubSeed

    I also don't really see any reason to use Coil over Calm Mind. Probably more notably, I'd probably rather use Swords Dance than Coil anyways. I'll wait to hear from other QC members before I outright reject it, but I really don't see much reason to use it. There are a lot more Pokemon—most of which are more common than the checks/counters to the CM set—that can beat the Coil set (Weezing, Metang which loses to HP Fire CM sets, Tangela, SubBU and the elusive physically defensive Braviary, etc).

    Also, Leaf Blade>Seed Bomb in every instance on physical sets. Crits do not ignore your own stat boosts outside of RBY, so if we keep the Coil set, cut the part about Seed Bomb from AC altogether.

    Anyway, I'd like us to get more organized on what sets we're putting onsite before QCing this. More feedback from other QC members on the sets would be splendid.
  12. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    I think a mention of Glare in the AC of the Coil set is worthwhile. The other moves you placed there are far less useful (maybe keep Aerial Ace to hit Scolipede?), and catching Scarf users on the switch is pretty neat. Tbh, i have to agree with QC about SubSeed, I don't think it does very well. Serperior may be fast, but it can't really significantly threaten most Grass-types even with a super-effective Hidden Power (neither Fire nor Ice even hits Ludicolo super-effectively, while many of the others are usually invested in bulk). CM and Dual Screens are good, and Coil at least has a niche (though SD might be worth testing) in phazing and being a decent enough physical attacker.
  13. tennisace

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    QC Reject 3/3 on SubSeed, other mons do it better. I also agree with most of the feedback given on other sets, but I'll let someone else who commented before me stamp this.

    Sets should be: CM, Dual Screen, Coil.

    edit: some talk on irc of Swords Dance > Coil, since: Serperior doesn't rely on inaccurate moves, and with Calm Mind Serp can take advantage of the SpDef boost because it can heal itself.
  14. sickweare

    sickweare

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    Okay, so I will remove the SubSeed set.

    For a physically attacking set what do you guys think it should look like with SD > Coil? Remember, Serperior also gets Synthesis and imo that is a move definitely worth mentioning although it is not like giga drain for SubCM. Also, should I just move Coil to AC as per consensus?
  15. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    You still mentioned SubSeed in C&C for Metang. I also feel Cradily is a very shaky check as it doesn't even resist Giga Drain and is massively weak to Taunt or even sufficiently stopped by Substitute if enough boosts are attained.
  16. sickweare

    sickweare

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    Removed all mentions of SubSeed. Please let me know what you think I should do with the Coil set. I've been testing out SD Serperior out a bit, but I wanted to know what the QC members thought
  17. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    going to approve everything other than the coil set right now. Everything is done well and I'm not sure what we're doing with it, I have no experience with that or Swords Dance.

    I think the best way to go is to either hope QC reaches a conclusion, or remove it for the time being and have it readded later.

    1/3 for everythng else though
  18. Hollywood

    Hollywood +NUD Bisharp: costa is outclasssed by seis
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    FireMage offered to take this over and (I have been told o:) Raseri ok'd it. Posting to let everyone know this isn't dead.
  19. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
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    yeah firemage will post eventually, or ill let someone else do it

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