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Serperior (QC 3/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Steamroll, May 10, 2012.

  1. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    SNAAAAAKE! SNAAAAAKE! OOOOOOHHH A SNAKE!
    context
    [pimg]525[/pimg]
    I am Serperior to you...

    [Overview]
    - Looks like a king, or some other high authority figure
    - One of 5 fully evolved starters in NU (Charizard, Meganium, BW)
    - Bulky with 75/95/95 defenses
    - God speed 113 (10th fastest in NU)
    - Limited but useful movepool
    ~Leech Seed, Giga Drain, Taunt, Glare, Safeguard, Dragon Tail, Reflect, Light Screen, Calm Mind and Coil to name a few
    - Movepool still leaves a lot to be desired...

    [SET]
    name: Err'yday I'm Shufflin' (ParaShuffler)
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Glare
    move 3: Dragon Tail
    move 4: Giga Drain
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    - The most annoying set in NU atm
    - Substitute to evade status and Dragon Tailing from Lickilicky
    - Glare to paralyze your opponents switch-ins
    - Dragon Tail to shuffle the mons around
    - Giga Drain for recovery
    - Doesn't worry about moveset coverage, as pokemon that can check serperior will have to break the sub in order to harm it, Just to get shuffled out by Dragon Tail

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    - 252 HP for maximum overall bulk
    - 144 Def for respectable physical investment
    - 112 Spe for outspeeding +base 95's (ESPECIALLY HAUNTER)
    - works spectacularly with hazards support, as shuffling constantly racks up damage on the opponent, Garbador for spikes/ tspikes. Golem, Armaldo, Regirock for Stealth Rocks
    - Cannot run any other moves or else the set will not function
    - Is also great with Stall-Oriented teams, and can still work effectively if one or two checks are still alive.
    - Doesn't neccessarily need support, but pokemon that are able to deal with serp's many checks will make Serp's job a hell of a lot easier
    ~Magmortar and Flareon nail the Grass-types that try to feed on a free switch-in
    ~Golem and Regirock nab the Flyers, Braviary, Swellow and the occasional Rotom-S
    - this set can actually make cleaning up a lot easier, too. Allowing other mons to easily punch through weakened and paralyzed opponents later in the match after Serp is done Pseudo-Walling.

    [SET]
    name: CM
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Substitute / Taunt
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Rock
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    - Calm Mind to increase both Special Defense and Special Attack
    - Substitute to grant immunity to status, avoid being Dragon Tailed out by Lickilicky.
    - Blocks status and brings Serperior down below 33% (aka Overgrow activating)
    - Taunt to block opponent from phazing via Roar or trying to status Serperior (Serp is insanely fast so it can taunt before being statused except for like Electrode or prankster mons)
    - Giga Drain for Recovery and STAB
    - Hidden Power Ice for dem Tangela, Amoonguss, Altaria, Torterra, Sawsbuck who otherwise get an easy switch-in.
    - Hidden Power Rock for Charizard, Braviary, Swellow, Magmortar, Butterfree, Rapidash and others
    - Is definitely not the easiest to set up, but pays off greatly when done

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    - Max Speed in order to outspeed the majority of NU, including important threats like Tauros, Haunter, Sawsbuck and Rapidash
    - 252 SpA ev's to hit as hard as possible
    - 4 HP for bulk
    - Is not just a mon that can just be thrown out and expected to easily set up, it needs a lot of support.
    - Wartortle, Lapras, Magmortar and Miltank can cover for Serps Ice and Fire weaknesses while Regirock and Golem can cover Flying. Garbador and Probopass can cover for the Poison weakness.
    - Needs a few CM boosts in order to wall most of its special attacking checks, but its sheer speed allows it to set up subs in order to predict ahead of the opponent.
    - to cover the checks opened up by the other hidden power: Magmortar and Flareon work good with HP Rock Serp while Regirock and Cinccino can cover for HP Ice.

    [SET]
    name: SubSeed
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Rock
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    - Really annoying stall set
    - Come in on something harmless, Substitute
    - Leech Seed gets health back on top of leftovers (nearly 20% a turn)
    - Giga Drain for even more recovery and longevity
    - Hidden Power Ice for dem Tangela, Amoonguss, Altaria, Torterra, Sawsbuck who otherwise get an easy switch-in.
    - Hidden Power Rock for Charizard, Braviary, Swellow, Magmortar, Butterfree, Rapidash and others

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    - 68 HP for a decent investment and bulk
    - 252 SpA to hit shit hard
    - 188 Speed and timid nature so you outspeed +spe natured base 105's (AKA RAPIDASH)
    - Hidden Power reduces speed by 1 so 188 is to always outspeed
    - Hidden Power determines the mons Serp covers, there's no way around this
    - Can opt to use Taunt or Glare over a Hidden Power but it really hinders the point of using this set
    - Is frankly so fast that it can set up another sub before the opponent can taunt / dtail / status. Making for one annoying mon to break through.
    - Enjoys a more stall oriented team, can work with balanced teams, too.
    - Works best with a lot of hazards, Garbador for spikes / tspikes. Golem / Armaldo / Regirock for Stealth Rock.
    - Needs support to cover the checks opened up by the other hidden power: Magmortar and Flareon work good with HP Rock Serp while Regirock and Cinccino can cover for HP Ice.

    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Reflect
    move 2: Light Screen
    move 3: Giga Drain
    move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Rock
    item: Light Clay
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    - Sets up Screens for other mons to set up easier and attempt to sweep.
    - Reflect and Light Screen are the crux, increasing the bulk both Serp and its teammates
    - Giga Drain for vital Recovery so Serp can come back and set Screens multiple times
    - Hidden Power Ice for dem Tangela, Amoonguss, Altaria, Torterra, Sawsbuck who otherwise get an easy switch-in.
    - Hidden Power Rock for Charizard, Braviary, Swellow, Magmortar, Butterfree, Rapidash and others

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    - 248 HP for a heavy investment in bulk
    - 72 Def for ability to take physical hits better
    - 188 Spe to outspeed base 105's (AGAIN RAPIDASH IS A BITCH)
    - Taunt can help Serperior by blocking mons who try to taunt Serp back or just set up in Serperior's face. Great for teams that worry about set up sweepers like Shell Smash Costa and RP Torterra
    - Glare can help Serp set up screens easier, but cuts away at its coverage
    - Works to help a teammate set up to sweep, so sweepers like Scraggy, Absol, Gorebyss and even Belly Drum Linoone can have an easier time preparing to sweep
    - Needs a lot of support in order to reliably set up screens multiple times.
    ~to cover the checks opened up by the other hidden power: Magmortar and Flareon work good with HP Rock Serp while Regirock and Cinccino can cover for HP Ice.

    [Other Options]
    - Coil
    - Taunt only set
    - Mean Look Trapper, Staller
    - Swords Dance
    - Synthesis, although Giga Drain is better
    - using a life orb to have some more power, although it cuts into Serp's recovery
    - Something that doesn't abuse sub
    - lol pretty much everything was covered

    [Checks & Counters]
    - Serperior hates faster pokemon, especially when its not behind a substitute. Zebstrika, Swellow, Cinccino, Floatzel, Sneasel and Scarfed Pokemon like Rotom-A and Rapidash can threaten sub-less Serp
    ~SubSeed, Dual Screens and SubCM all suffer from lack of coverage due to Serps horrible offensive movepool, leaving Serp open to a variety of different checks pending on the Hidden Power used.
    ~Sub Glare is much harder to check but its top threats are Scarf Haunter, SubCM Musharna and to a lesser extent other Substitute mons who can take a Dragon Tail without losing their Sub. Serperior really is at a disadvantage when faced against powerful mons that can break Serp's Subs, forcing Serp to either keep substituting fishing for a possible miss or to Glare and die so another teammate can revenge.
    -Amoonguss is the best overall check to Serperior. CM Serperior is really the only set that doesn't need to worry about Amoonguss. Clear Smog will always break Serperior's substitutes (sans CM serps) and Serperior can't really do anything back unless it has multiple Calm Minds under its belt.

    [Unreleased]
    - Contrary will make Serperior incredibly powerful after just one Leaf Storm
    - Contrary will change Serp from a defensive mon into a full offensive monster
    - Will definitely cause Serperior to leave the tier to Mid-OU usage, and is likely ban worthy in NU.
  2. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    I'm probably going to make coil a set, too. but just can't be arsed at the moment so it's OO for now.
  3. breh

    breh ⁰ ゝ⁰
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    SubCM really ought to be set 1; it's very strong and can rip through teams if you happen to have killed off the right mons. At the very least, it's better than Leech Seed, which is "switch in a mon with Grass-typing to win".
  4. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    Amoonguss is the best Grass-type to switch in against SubSeed Serp. Nothing else is going to enjoy taking an HP Ice on the switch, or trying to break the sub and getting smacked in the face.
  5. tennisace

    tennisace
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    SubGlare should be set 1 imo, as it's the most common (and best) set in this metagame, followed by SubCM, leech seed, then Dual Screens (if not Dual Screens in OO). However this is entirely subjective, any other QC members wanna comment on this?
  6. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
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    I haven't used SubGlare much but I agree that it and SubCM are by far the best sets atm. I'd go with SubGlare > SubCM > Dual Screens > Leech Seed, reason being that Leech Seed is really not too great with so many bulky Grass-types running around (and quite a few of them doing it far better than Serperior does). I'm kind of really fucking tired right now so I'll take a more in-depth look tomorrow probably but yeah.
  7. Omicron

    Omicron
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    I personally enjoy SubCoil, but it admittedly needs a lot of team support. I don't know if it's worth a set at this point, but the QC members should probably have the final say on that. Definitely OO at least though.
  8. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    I'd say give SubCoil a set. With Spikes support it can sweep mid- to lategame.
  9. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    Serperior's moveset stats (open)
    Code:
     + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ + 
     | Serperior                                                                     | 
     + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ + 
     | Ability |100.0 | Overgrow                                                     | 
     + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ + 
     | Item    | 72.1 | Leftovers                                                    | 
     | Item    | 19.5 | Light Clay                                                   | 
     | Item    |  5.5 | Life Orb                                                     | 
     | Item    |  2.8 | Other                                                        | 
     + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ + 
     | Move    | 73.6 | Giga Drain                                                   | 
     | Move    | 49.8 | Substitute                                                   | 
     | Move    | 47.8 | Taunt                                                        | 
     | Move    | 45.8 | Leech Seed                                                   | 
     | Move    | 35.2 | Hidden Power                                                 | 
     | Move    | 23.4 | Glare                                                        | 
     | Move    | 22.1 | Calm Mind                                                    | 
     | Move    | 20.8 | Light Screen                                                 | 
     | Move    | 20.7 | Reflect                                                      | 
     | Move    | 15.7 | Dragon Tail                                                  | 
     | Move    | 13.3 | Leaf Blade                                                   | 
     | Move    | 12.4 | Coil                                                         | 
     | Move    |  3.6 | Synthesis                                                    | 
     | Move    |  3.1 | Energy Ball                                                  | 
     | Move    |  2.2 | Leaf Storm                                                   | 
     | Move    | 10.7 | Other                                                        | 
     + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ + 
     | Nature  | 58.9 | Timid                                                        | 
     | Nature  |  8.8 | Hardy                                                        | 
     | Nature  |  7.7 | Jolly                                                        | 
     | Nature  |  7.2 | Bold                                                         | 
     | Nature  |  5.4 | Calm                                                         | 
     | Nature  |  3.2 | Impish                                                       | 
     | Nature  |  2.8 | Adamant                                                      | 
     | Nature  |  2.8 | Modest                                                       | 
     | Nature  |  2.3 | Careful                                                      | 
     | Nature  |  0.8 | Other                                                        | 
     + ------- + ---- + ------------------------------------------------------------ + 
     | EVs     | 21.3 | 252 HP / ~72 Def / ~184 Spe                                  | 
     | EVs     |  9.4 | ~240 HP / ~16 Def / ~240 Spe                                 | 
     | EVs     |  8.4 | 252 SpA / 252 Spe                                            | 
     | EVs     |  7.9 | ~72 HP / 252 SpA / ~184 Spe                                  | 
     | EVs     |  6.8 | 252 HP / ~44 Def / ~212 Spe                                  | 
     | EVs     |  5.6 | 252 HP / 252 Spe                                             | 
     | EVs     |  5.2 | ~44 HP / ~212 SpA / ~240 Spe                                 | 
     | EVs     |  4.1 | 252 HP / 252 Def                                             | 
     | EVs     |  4.0 | 252 Atk / 252 Spe                                            | 
     | EVs     |  3.0 | 252 HP / ~128 SpD / ~128 Spe                                 | 
     | EVs     |  2.5 | 252 HP / ~100 Def / ~156 Spe                                 | 
     | EVs     |  2.3 | ~44 HP / 252 Atk / ~212 Spe                                  | 
     | EVs     | 19.6 | Other                                                        | 
     + ------- + ---- + -------------------- + ------------------------------------- + 
     | Serperior @ Leftovers                 | Serperior @ Leftovers                 | 
     | Overgrow                              | Overgrow                              | 
     | 248 HP / 28 Def / 232 Spe             | 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe             | 
     | Timid                                 | Timid                                 | 
     | - Leech Seed                          | - Substitute                          | 
     | - Glare                               | - Giga Drain                          | 
     | - Giga Drain                          | - Hidden Power                        | 
     | - Taunt                               | - Calm Mind                           | 
     + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ + 


    Based entirely off of this it shows that subseed is the most common set while SubCM is second, Screens is third, Shuffler is fourth and coil is fifth. I really don't care what order the sets are supposed to be in, but I always thought it was based on usage #'s.

    I also expanded on OO a bit since Serp still has a few untouched moves.
  10. Django

    Django
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    Swords Dance in OO? It gets Leaf Blade and Aerial Ace!!!
  11. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    Swords Dance is inferior to Coil. Coil's accuracy boost lets Serp use Dragon Tail and Leaf Blade with no fear of missing. The Defense boosts bulk up its Substitutes too. Why patter foes with a weak Aerial Ace when you can phaze them away?
  12. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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    Unless manual sand/hail with the few Sand Veil and Snow Cloak mons have been used since yesterday when I went to bed I doubt such a thing is even possible.
  13. Zebraiken

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    I was under the impression that it was based on effectiveness. Most people really look at the first few sets and tend to use one of them; if one of the most used sets is additionally one of the worst, would we be trying to encourage usage of it?
  14. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    Alright I edited it to Tennisace's recommended order. Quirks?
  15. Cherub Agent

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    I'd much prefer to use Frustration over Aerial Ace, as it has very similar coverage and obviously far better power. However, it's pretty much outclassed by Leafeon and Sawsbuck. All it boasts is higher Speed (the other two have very good Speed for NU though) and obviously has lower power.
  16. Django

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    Yeah I agree its inferior to a lot of other mons, hence why it should just be in OO. Aerial Ace does actually hit Grass types harder than Frustration, but Frustration wins out overall for its ability to hit Fire types in addition to Grass types almost as hard.

    On the Dual Screen set I ran Taunt in the last slot, and found it to be really effective. It sets up all over Golem leads while preventing hazards at the same time, and can do the same trick to pretty much any other lead. Stopping something like Tangela coming in and either sleeping Serperior or whatever you want to sweep with is also a big plus. I don't think the power of a fast Taunt has been explored enough on that set.
  17. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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  18. bluemon

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    could you mention leaf blade in the AC of parashuffler set?
    it allows you to run jolly and allows serp to hit as hard as possible with dragon tail. giga drain is almost always better tho.
  19. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    I'd rather use Jumpluff for Swords Dance... and that's saying something. D:
  20. No Luck Involved

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    Just looking at the EV spreads for all the sets I can't help but feel that most of them aren't using Serperior's speed enough. Sets with Glare can possibly be excused but I think a faster spread deserves at least to be mentioned for the SubCM set. A traditional 252/252 SpAtk Spe works wonders and in my experience probably should be the main EV spread. It's very capable of sweeping with just one boost, there's no need to try to tank attacks when Serp's speed is so high. It survives ScarfSawk CC quite comfortably with no investment which is pretty good for a sweeper.
  21. Zebraiken

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    This seems to have gone unnoticed. Why is Serperior running coverage on that set when it has no investment on anything and at best will be wasting screen turns? Idk about you but I'd much rather see Taunt in that last slot than Hidden Power of any sort. HP can be mentioned in AC if you really want it but Taunt is definitely deserving of a moveslot imo.

    Yeah, what are these arbitrary numbers we're hitting, Steam? I can sort of understand the emphasis on bulk for sets like Dual Screens but SubCM is by far too slow (unless the physical defense does something in particular...?). Part of the effectiveness of SubCM is that things generally cannot outspeed it and hope to handle it that way; cutting down the speed to base 80s is kind of crushing the big advantage it has. You can mention the bulky spread in AC but really that set, at least, is much more inclined to an offensive spread.
  22. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    Changes made
  23. TLCJR4LIFE

    TLCJR4LIFE

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    I like the original Sub CM EV and Natures with Timid and Special attack. That one loses too much power and Sub CM should really have enough speed to pretty much sweep the whole tier.
  24. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Yeah, I'm not sure if making SubCM Serperior physically defensive is a good idea. 186 SpA is just terrible, and Altaria can only get away with bulky boosting sets with similar offense because its STAB is more or less unresisted and it has a better defensive typing. Plus you still get destroyed by the birds and Emboar.

    Imo, 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid or something similar is the best way to go. Outspeeding Tauros is pretty sweet, and Serp is one of the few setup sweepers that can actually do this. Life Orb or Leftovers depends on how conservative you want to be.
  25. Steamroll

    Steamroll Tasty
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    alright change made and formatting issues have been fixed.

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