If you come in on defog, you'd leaf storm then d pulse. Can you add up the calcs of a unboosted leaf storm and then a + 2 dragon pulse? Asuume speed boosting nature for serp.
I'd do it but I'm on a phone
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Pokémon Serperior
- Thread starter Youmu the Gardener
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I'd do it but I'm on a phone
I didn't mean to say that it can switch in, it definitely can't unless you 100% know for sure that a defog or roost is coming. But in a revenge killing or voltturn free switch situation, the only way to beat a full HP latis is using the vest, otherwise LO meteor one shots you. Meanwhile leaf storm -> +2 dpulse can kill both offensive latis. It's a wierd situation where it's impossible to OHKO them, so, the only way to survive and go for a 2hko is with the assault vest because leftovers would be meaningless when they hit that hard.
The purpose of the set though is definitely more along the lines of eating up specskeldeo water attacks and even some weaker hp ice/fires out there. Checking latis, setting up on them even, was just one interesting scenario I wanted to point out, since other people had brought up the idea of stealing an evasion boost from defoggers and abusing that.
It can't stop them from defogging. But if they do defog, then, serp has +2 spatk and +2 evasion and 100% hp. If they go for damage instead, serp still wins the fight and the hazards are still on their side of the field.
Wouldn't it be +1 Evasion? I thought Defog lowers it by one stage, then contrary swaps that.
But yeah, Lati@s versus Serperior is a weird case. On the other hand, we're assuming worst case scenario where Lati@s is out and Seperior has to switch in; in a case where Lati@s has to switch in, or both of them are in at the same time (of after a revenge kill) then it falls in Serperior's favour... though you'll take significant damage unless their last move was Draco Meteor. So Assault Vest isn't really looking terrible, then?
Any important KOs you miss out on when boosted that LO gets that AV can't? I'd *hope* that at +6 it'd be negligible because you're doing terrible damage at +0 either way, and I'd much prefer the bulk on the AV set to the anti-bulk on the LO one.
But yeah, Lati@s versus Serperior is a weird case. On the other hand, we're assuming worst case scenario where Lati@s is out and Seperior has to switch in; in a case where Lati@s has to switch in, or both of them are in at the same time (of after a revenge kill) then it falls in Serperior's favour... though you'll take significant damage unless their last move was Draco Meteor. So Assault Vest isn't really looking terrible, then?
Any important KOs you miss out on when boosted that LO gets that AV can't? I'd *hope* that at +6 it'd be negligible because you're doing terrible damage at +0 either way, and I'd much prefer the bulk on the AV set to the anti-bulk on the LO one.
2 grass moves are legit on that thing since LS has only 8 PPs, Giga Drain works well in cunjunction with Life Orb so it can stay longer on the field while saving the PPs for another time, especially since even +4/+6 giga drain is brutal as fuck.
also HP Fire is the best option imo since you probably wont stay on Talonflame or Pinsir (Pinsir wins the 1v1 after like 3 turns of Life Orb.), and you cant force through Skarm/Zor/Ferrothorn with Dragon Pulse/Leaf Storm alone like you would do with, say, Pinsir (+4 Dragon Pulse OHKOes after Stealth Rock damages on non-mega pinsir) or Zard X who obviously gets mauled by DP.
also HP Fire is the best option imo since you probably wont stay on Talonflame or Pinsir (Pinsir wins the 1v1 after like 3 turns of Life Orb.), and you cant force through Skarm/Zor/Ferrothorn with Dragon Pulse/Leaf Storm alone like you would do with, say, Pinsir (+4 Dragon Pulse OHKOes after Stealth Rock damages on non-mega pinsir) or Zard X who obviously gets mauled by DP.
Serperior is going to be very viable, I think. Anything that doesn't resist Leaf Storm is going to get 2HKO'd after the boost (unless its name is Chansey).
Leaf Storm is resisted by poison, dragon, fire, flying, bug, steel and grass. A combination of HP fire and Dragon Pulse is hitting 4 of those 7 resistances super effectively. The remaining 3 (flying, poison and fire) are conveniently walled by defensive Rock types such T-tar and Rhyperior.
Coupled with an excellent speed stat (outspeeding Lati@s, Keldeo, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross etc etc.) it's gonna be hard to stop once it gets going.
Leaf Storm is resisted by poison, dragon, fire, flying, bug, steel and grass. A combination of HP fire and Dragon Pulse is hitting 4 of those 7 resistances super effectively. The remaining 3 (flying, poison and fire) are conveniently walled by defensive Rock types such T-tar and Rhyperior.
Coupled with an excellent speed stat (outspeeding Lati@s, Keldeo, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross etc etc.) it's gonna be hard to stop once it gets going.
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Honestly he is better used to deal with non fireblast Mslowbro and MSableye.
I honestly prefer HP ground if you use knock off, and use Magneton plus a mega that benefits from Magneton usage but hates Slowbro and sableye like Gallade/loppuny . But that is a personal preference on my side.
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Magneton to outspeed the omnipresent Greninja, right?
Serperior, Magneton and Gallade core seems pretty solid.
Yep magnezone is cool an all, but after killing something with serperior greninflame will come without a doubt. Or a skarmory/ferro will scout for HP fire while you attack. That's when magneton comes handy. Especially with some volturner shenanigans.
Would Diancie work as the mega as well? I've been thinking of getting a Magnezone anyway and assembling a strike squad for Diancie
Sticky Web is mentioned in the OP and there was some discussion regarding it around a few pages ago, but its distribution and users makes the move a rare sight and Serperior would still have problems with priority.
Essentially this.
If anything, Serperior will be like Bisharp and be a deterrent to Defog, since he'll get an Evasion boost when hit by it (even though Bisharo was already a stop to Sticky Web, but eh)
Only if Serperior can safely switch in and threaten users of Defog (or Sticky Web I guess) though. And as we've seen for Latias and Latios, that safety isn't exactly assured. Deterrent might be too strong a word. Serperior can probably threaten some Scizor with HP Fire, but fears U-turn/Bug Bite or +2 boosted moves. Skarmory can phaze its boosts or Brave Bird it gradually I suppose? I'll have to run calcs on that. Mandibuzz's got Toxic, and substitute doesn't seem to be the move-of-choice for Serperior so far in this thread, not when it has Giga Drain/Synthesis/Glare/Knock Off. Serperior won't want to switch in to Zapdos's Heat Wave/Toxic/U-turn, although again with AV I'd have to run calcs to see whether it's worth the risk. None of the OU defoggers really seem to quake at the sight of Serperior :/
And also: either way, the Defog user still gets to Defog. And a +1 evasion Serperior in most cases isn't quite as scary as a +2 Atk Bisharp with STAB priority.
And also: either way, the Defog user still gets to Defog. And a +1 evasion Serperior in most cases isn't quite as scary as a +2 Atk Bisharp with STAB priority.
The problem I see in the comparison is that, in the most commonly discussed scenarios at least, Serperior needs to amass a lot of boosts to threaten Defoggers, which means he can't necessarily switch into them. Bisharp, on the other hand, presents an immediate and clear threat with the Defiant Boost, not to mention mind games with Sucker Punch and (potentially) Pursuit. Even with the Evasion Boost, Serperior still needs to get the Leaf Storm Boost to threaten much of anything, and in the meantime risks being KO'd by the Latis, Phazed by Skarmory or Mandibuzz, or statused/attacked depending on their move of choice. The evasion boost is helpful, but unlike Bisharp, I don't think potential hax (it weighs in their favor as much as Focus Blast would) is usually worse than the objective issues their team may face from Rocks, especially since removing those rocks is key to some of Serperior's most potent answers, like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, whose primary moves are 100% accuracy and thus safe bets anyway.
It's more something Serperior can benefit from, but I don't see him actively deterring Defog the way Bisharp does.
...Wasn't this locked a while ago? :B Klefki works its faerie majykk again I guess.
On the basis (^) that we should be treading new ground in the discussion and not just the repetitive "so, is viable y/n"; more teammates for Serperior? I'm thinking specifically about the Screens set (more offensive alternative to Klefki) - I used Klefki to decent effect with Haxorus a while back - respectable bulk on both sides, and Haxorus appreciated spikes, paralysis and especially those screens to set DDs with - but I don't think Haxorus would have preferred Serperior, and most Dragon DDers won't either since they're plenty offensive in the first place. Plus Dragons fit so much better with Steel/Fairy anyway, and the majority are fast enough at +1 to not need paralysis. MGyarados wants things to muscle through its checks, sure, but a lot of those checks are Grass type, so... and MTtar is sort of moot lately. MAltaria has better teammates to consider.
Umm.
Lucario's SD set appreciates things to get through Slowbro and Sableye, and appreciates the Earthquake resist, maybe sometimes Scald, and likes paralysis should you run Glare. IIRC Lucario can get past Talonflame's Brave Bird with ES, too. But you're still open to fire moves from anything faster than Serperior. Luc can muscle through some Steel types (can't switch into Heatran, though) while a +2 HP Fire can clean others. But someone please stop me, I'd rather the first thing I seriously suggest to *not* be something as painfully borderline as Lucario is. (Sorry buddy :( )
On the basis (^) that we should be treading new ground in the discussion and not just the repetitive "so, is viable y/n"; more teammates for Serperior? I'm thinking specifically about the Screens set (more offensive alternative to Klefki) - I used Klefki to decent effect with Haxorus a while back - respectable bulk on both sides, and Haxorus appreciated spikes, paralysis and especially those screens to set DDs with - but I don't think Haxorus would have preferred Serperior, and most Dragon DDers won't either since they're plenty offensive in the first place. Plus Dragons fit so much better with Steel/Fairy anyway, and the majority are fast enough at +1 to not need paralysis. MGyarados wants things to muscle through its checks, sure, but a lot of those checks are Grass type, so... and MTtar is sort of moot lately. MAltaria has better teammates to consider.
Umm.
Lucario's SD set appreciates things to get through Slowbro and Sableye, and appreciates the Earthquake resist, maybe sometimes Scald, and likes paralysis should you run Glare. IIRC Lucario can get past Talonflame's Brave Bird with ES, too. But you're still open to fire moves from anything faster than Serperior. Luc can muscle through some Steel types (can't switch into Heatran, though) while a +2 HP Fire can clean others. But someone please stop me, I'd rather the first thing I seriously suggest to *not* be something as painfully borderline as Lucario is. (Sorry buddy :( )
Serperior is a Pokemon that needs momentum to work well. It is too weak to just bring in whenever and try to win. Instead, it can only come in on a choice few Pokemon to attempt a cleanup. This is because without a boost it is completely useless. So I've been building several teams around it and found that SD U-Turn Scizor with Superpower and BP is a great partner for it. Gives you a switch in to many Pokemon in case you lose momentum such as Latios, which you only beat with a boost. It provides momentum with U-Turn, lures in Heatran with SD Superpower, sets up on Amoonguss and other mons that can threaten Serperior on stall. Similarly, U-Turn Landorus-I can work as a good partner for Serperior, giving it free switches, weakening Latios and Latias, and letting sub variants set up on the likes of Gliscor and Cresselia. landorus also beats Mega Venusaur which walls Serperior.
These are just a few good teammates I've found.
These are just a few good teammates I've found.
I'm a little late here, but Serperior needs to be careful if it ends up against Chansey and doesn't have Taunt or Knock Off, as she can very easily cripple it with T-Wave or Toxic and stall out some of Leaf Storm's preciously low PP with Protect. I personally would just smack it with Knock Off as it switches in and double out to Magnezone (which you should be using as a Serperior partner anyway since it can deal with Skarmory and Ferrothorn if you Knock Off their Shed Shell), no-sell the Toxic or T-Wave if Chansey stayed in, then get a Volt Switch off.
Speaking of partners for the new and improved snake, thought came to head thinking that maybe mega manetric would be a good partner.
Has fire coverage to get past the steel types, resist flying types and weakens them with it's ability, and can grab momentum with volt switch so it can switch the snake when it's perfect for it
Has fire coverage to get past the steel types, resist flying types and weakens them with it's ability, and can grab momentum with volt switch so it can switch the snake when it's perfect for it
Is choice scarf viable on serperior? Let's it outspeed basically everything in OU that isn't scarfed, and let's it revenge kill stuff like greninja, as well as being able to nab a boost in the process. Leaf storm isn't bad to be locked into, but other moves like HP ground and stuff are pretty bad to be locked into, but idk. Just an idea.
This has already been gone over and it's decided that it's a very sub-par option, as Leaf Storm is actually bad to be locked into - at first it seems perfect, but even at +6 Leaf Storm still has a horrible offensive typing and has a hard time getting past anything that resists it with even the slightest bulk, or even just straight out special walls like Chansey. It absolutely requires it's coverage in Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power to be effective.
Well, if all goes well Greninja should be getting banned come the new year...
But yeah, Serperior's best niche is as a set-up cleaner. Choice lock just limits it.
Guys, it's probably about time Serperior had a preliminary place on the viability rankings - we've long since established it's viable, so by how much? It's been sorta neglected thus far. Also if anyone has any semi decent replays using Serp I personally would really appreciate seeing them :D
edit: aaaargh it's not even on showdown yet
edit: aaaargh it's not even on showdown yet
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I'm pretty sure contrary still hasn't been implemented on showdown so I don't expect anyone to have decent replays.
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