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Ubers Shaymin-S [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by canman98, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    [​IMG]
    QC's: 3/3 (Blue Jay, Fireburn, Melee Mewtwo)
    GP's: 2/2 (blitzlefan, Electrolyte)
    Overview
    ########

    Shaymin-S is one of the great pioneers of the "60% = 100%" bias, and it returns to prove itself in Ubers once again. With the combination of Seed Flare and Air Slash, Shaymin-S can break through special walls with Special Defense drops and secure KOs by repeatedly flinching its targets. With an excellent base 127 Speed, Mewtwo, Mega Gengar, Deoxys-A, and Deoxys-S are the only unboosted threats that can catch up to it. In addition, an immunity to Sticky Web furthers its usefulness on a team. Though Shaymin-S's Special Attack stat might seem average, Seed Flare's side effect can remedy it quite nicely. Unfortunately, Shaymin-S's subpar defensive typing and frailty hold it back from switching in whenever it wants, and its weakness to Stealth Rock compounds with this, even with the popularity of Defog users. Also, Shaymin-S has somewhat sparse coverage options, and its STAB moves don't provide much coverage. Regardless, Shaymin-S can utilize Serene Grace very efficiently to wreak havoc.


    SubSeed
    ########
    name: SubSeed
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Seed Flare
    move 4: Air Slash
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    With Substitute, Shaymin-S can take advantage of the switches it forces against bulky Water-types and Ground-types to shield itself from damage and status. Leech Seed works well with Substitute as the move increases Shaymin-S's survivability and replenishes its health against walls and tanks. With a high Base Power and an 80% chance to reduce the target's Special Defense stat by two stages, Seed Flare helps Shaymin-S bypass special walls. Air Slash completes Shaymin-S's STAB combination, has an incredibly handy chance to flinch the opponent, and can be a reliable move to spam when Substitute and Leech Seed have been used.

    Set Details
    =========

    A Timid nature and maximum Speed investment allow Shaymin-S to set up Substitutes quickly and proceed to spam Seed Flare. Due to Shaymin-S's slight reliance on Seed Flare to deal damage, maximum Special Attack investment is highly recommended. The remaining four EVs are placed into Special Defense to grant it a minuscule buffer against special attacks. Leftovers is the chosen item as it works well in tandem with Substitute and Leech Seed, passively restoring Shaymin-S's HP.

    Usage Tips
    =========

    One of the rules of thumb when using Substitute is to stay on top of predicted switches in order to gain setup opportunities. This is important as Shaymin-S can force out threats such as Groudon, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and even the mighty Kyogre, and set up a Substitute for free. Try using Substitute to scout for super effective coverage moves, and try to use it before using Leech Seed, as to avoid taking damage from attacks. When using the two moves, choose Substitute when you feel an offensive threat is coming in to scout out its set, and use Leech Seed if you think a defensive Pokemon or phazer is coming in so that Shaymin-S can score some passive damage. Shaymin-S's STAB moves have mediocre coverage, but they are very threatening and spammable, so fire away when needed. Try to avoid Steel-types, priority users, and possible phazers unless Shaymin-S has a Substitute up (for Steel-types and priority users) or can flee with Leech Seed in effect (against phazers).

    Team Options
    =========

    Though it is a rage-inducing soloist most of the time, Shaymin-S has many potential allies. The primary ones are VoltTurn users such as Thundurus, Genesect, and Zekrom, which can gain momentum and bring Shaymin-S in on a fleeing opponent. Groudon is a very solid partner for Shaymin-S, as it can set up Stealth Rock and check Ho-Oh, Skarmory, and Scizor with the right moves. Mega Gengar can trap Steel-types and cripple them with Taunt, leaving them vulnerable to Shaymin-S's shenanigans. Yveltal is a solid partner, as it can smash many common Steel-types and assist Shaymin-S with Taunt and U-turn. Heatran is a very helpful partner as it can provide Stealth Rock support as well as lure out Ground-type attacks and Pokemon for Shaymin-S to switch in and set up on. Entry hazard setters such as Forretress, Ferrothorn, Dialga, and Landorus-T are also crucial to Shaymin-S's success, as Stealth Rock and/or Spikes can allow it to finish off and defeat support Arceus formes and Ho-Oh. Entry hazard removal is equally important, as Shaymin-S wants to switch in as much as it can, so Defog users such as Arceus and Giratina and spinners such as Excadrill and Forretress can help out in this regard. Shaymin-S can support the aforementioned teammates with Leech Seed to increase their recovery and longevity.


    All-Out Attacker
    ########
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Seed Flare
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Healing Wish
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    When equipped with Life Orb, Shaymin-S can be a dangerous attacker capable of fending for itself when needed. Seed Flare deals good damage with the boost from Life Orb, and nothing likes switching into it in fear of a Special Defense drop. Earth Power is Shaymin-S's main move for defeating Steel-types that wall its STAB combination, and has a 20% chance to lower the opponent's Special Defense. Hidden Power Fire can be run so that Shaymin-S can defeat Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor that don't care too much about Earth Power. If Shaymin-S is not useful or cannot deal enough damage to the opponent, it can utilize Healing Wish, a support move that only a few Pokemon have access to. Healing Wish allows Shaymin-S to sacrifice itself in order to restore a damaged sweeper, pivot, or revenge killer to full health. Though unlisted, Hidden Power Rock allows Shaymin-S to heavily damage or KO Ho-Oh, and can reliably damage other Flying-types due to the boost from Life Orb.

    Set Details
    ========

    With a Timid nature, Shaymin-S outspeeds most of the unboosted tier, and with Life Orb, its damage output is very acceptable. A Modest nature can be used for additional power, but doing so sacrifices Shaymin-S's ability to outspeed max Speed Arceus formes and Darkrai. In terms of EVs, Shaymin-S should not deviate from the given spread, as its Speed and power are too precious to give up.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    When attacking, don't be afraid to mispredict with Shaymin-S's STAB moves, as they are extremely spammable and are backed by Life Orb. Seed Flare is often the best move to use unless a Steel-type that checks Shaymin-S is on the opposing team. However, be wary of the damage that Life Orb induces, as the recoil could reduce Shaymin-S's HP to the point that a priority user such as Yveltal, Scizor, or Extreme Killer Arceus could revenge kill it with ease. As a result, try to avoid priority users as much as possible, as Shaymin-S's frailty combined with Life Orb recoil can turn it into a high-priority target.

    Team Options
    ========

    As with any offensive threat, Shaymin-S can take advantage of entry hazards on the opponent's side of the field with its offensive pressure to rack up residual damage. Stealth Rock setters such as Landorus-T, Dialga, and Groudon in addition to Spikes setters such as Forretress and Ferrothorn will obviously help greatly in this regard. Entry hazards on Shaymin-S's side of the field are detrimental, so Defog users such as Arceus and Giratina as well as spinners like Forretress and Excadrill are beneficial partners. Even with Earth Power or Hidden Power Fire, Shaymin-S needs extra support against Steel-types. Therefore, Fire-types such as Ho-Oh, stallbreakers like Yveltal, and even Darkrai can assist Shaymin-S. VoltTurn is a safe method for bringing Shaymin-S in: Thundurus, Zekrom, and Genesect can grab momentum for the team and provide utility. Lastly, lures for Ground-types can bring Shaymin-S in safely; in particular, Heatran excels at this role with its 4x weakness to Ground-type attacks.


    Other Options
    ########

    Shaymin-S has a relatively solid set of options to choose from when thinking outside the box. A Choice Specs or Choice Scarf set is one that comes to mind quickly, as the former can provide immense wallbreaking power with Seed Flare, while the latter's increased Speed can help it revenge kill even boosted threats like Rock Polish Groudon. However, Shaymin-S dislikes being locked into a move, and the Choice Scarf set lacks power. Shaymin-S has a boosting move in Swords Dance, which complements its great Speed, but its physical movepool is more barren than a Ditto's expression, with only Seed Bomb and Return as options. In terms of filler options, Shaymin-S has access to the rare Aromatherapy, which can allow it to function as an offensive cleric that can take on opposing walls with Seed Flare. Shaymin-S has Dazzling Gleam, which can deal solid damage to Dark- and Dragon-types, but a neutral Seed Flare hits them for roughly the same amount of damage. Shaymin-S has a large arsenal of other Grass-type moves at its disposal. Leaf Storm can provide more immediate power but reduces Shaymin-S's Special Attack, Energy Ball has more PP and accuracy than Seed Flare does, and Giga Drain can restore its health. However, the sheer utility and usefulness Seed Flare has to offer causes it to greatly overshadow these options. Finally, Shaymin-S can utilize Toxic to cripple walls and Defog users, and can run it in tandem with SubSeed. Keep in mind though that Shaymin-S's moveset is relatively cramped and Toxic can be run on a bulkier team member.


    Checks and Counters
    #########

    **Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh is a large threat with its massive special bulk, 4x resistance to Seed Flare, and ability to KO Shaymin-S with Sacred Fire and Brave Bird. However, if Stealth Rock is up and/or Shaymin-S has Hidden Power Rock, Ho-Oh will go down without too much of a hassle.

    **Mega Gengar**: With its resistance to Seed Flare, access to Taunt, and greater Speed, Mega Gengar can easily check Shaymin-S. It can trap and KO Shaymin-S without trouble, but it must be wary of Earth Power as it Mega Evolves.

    **Levitating Steel-types**: Skarmory and Bronzong cause a great deal of trouble for Shaymin-S. Although Shaymin-S can do almost nothing to Bronzong, it can hit Skarmory with Hidden Power Fire for good damage.

    **Scizor**: If Shaymin-S does not carry Hidden Power Fire, Scizor can switch in on a Seed Flare and pick it off with a Technician-boosted Bullet Punch.

    **Dialga**: Dialga usually carries Special Defense investment, can take all of Shaymin-S's attacks bar Earth Power, and can deal severe damage to it with Draco Meteor.

    **Charizard**: As both have a 4x resistance to Seed Flare, Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y can switch in on the move and threaten to KO Shaymin-S with their STAB Fire-type attacks. However, both are vulnerable to being flinched repeatedly by Air Slash, Mega Charizard X falls to Earth Power, and Mega Charizard Y does not like Hidden Power Rock.

    **Heatran**: Heatran can hard wall Shaymin-S due to its typing and Flash Fire, and can KO it with Lava Plume. However, it doesn't stand a chance if Shaymin-S has Earth Power.

    **Zekrom**: Zekrom's typing allows it to switch into any move Shaymin-S has bar Earth Power and threaten Shaymin-S greatly with Bolt Strike. It can also use Volt Switch after Shaymin-S is forced out.

    **Kyurem-W**: Shaymin-S cannot switch into Kyurem-W's devastating attacks, and Kyurem-W does not take too much damage from Shaymin-S's coverage options.

    **Sylveon**: Sylveon's great special bulk and ability to attack through Substitute with Hyper Voice can annoy Shaymin-S.

    **Blissey**: Blissey can take any hit the All-Out Attacker set can throw at it. However, it is complete setup fodder for the SubSeed set, and loans incomprehensible amounts of HP through Leech Seed.

    **Lugia**: Shaymin-S cannot hit Lugia hard enough without Hidden Power Rock or Stealth Rock up, whereas Lugia can heal itself with Roost and threaten Shaymin-S with Aeroblast.

    **Revenge Killers**: Revenge killers are probably the biggest thorn in Shaymin-S's side and the best ways to deal with it. Choice Scarf users such as Kyogre and Genesect as well as priority users like Yveltal and Extreme Killer Arceus can take advantage of Shaymin-S's poor bulk and KO it easily.

    **Stealth Rock**: Stealth Rock prevents Shaymin-S from switching in freely without losing 25% of its health, and can rack up residual damage over the course of the match.

    **Status**: Paralysis utterly cripples Shaymin-S, preventing it from taking advantage of its great Speed stat and leaving it open to opposing attacks. Shaymin-S also dislikes Toxic and burns, as the residual damage leaves it more vulnerable to revenge killing.

    However, keep in mind that many of the aforementioned Pokemon cannot take on Shaymin-S as if it were like any other special attacker. This is because Seed Flare can reduce its opponent's Special Defense to the point where a coverage move can easily cripple or KO it.


    Skeleton (open)

    [​IMG]
    QC's: 2/3 (Blue Jay, Fireburn)
    GP's: 0/2
    Overview
    ########

    • Serene Grace Seed Flare + Air Slash = shoot me now
    • Awesome Speed tier, outspeeds everything up to Mewtwo
    • Good Special Attack; Seed Flare gives it great offensive pressure
    • Immune to Sticky Web
    • Frail as shit
    • SR weak (Defog doesn't save it this time)
    • Somewhat limited coverage

    SubSeed
    ########
    name: SubSeed
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Seed Flare
    move 4: Air Slash
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    • Substitute takes advantage of Skymin's offensive pressure to get a free turn to set it up
    • Leech Seed keeps Shaymin healthy and can gradually weaken tanks/walls
    • Seed Flare breaks through shit, nothing likes having an 80% chance to get their SpD dropped
    • Air Slash can keep up flinch hax if possible (60% chance), and Flying in general is just a good spammable type

    Set Details
    =========

    • EVs let Skymin set up Subs fast while still having good initial power before Seed Flare does its thing
    • Modest can be used for more power, but you get outsped by Darkrai
    Usage Tips
    =========

    • Try to stay on top of predicted switches, especially ones with incoming Pokemon that Shaymin-S can force out, like Kyogre (yes), some Arceus formes, and opposing walls
    • Use Sub to predict possible super effective coverage moves, or use it before using Leech Seed otherwise, as the only thing that can attack you through your Sub is Sylveon
    • Also, when using Substitute or Leech Seed, try using Substitute if offensive threats are expected to come in to stop you, or use Leech Seed to gain leverage against a defensive Pokemon or phazer
    • Skymin is still threatening with its STAB combo combined with Serene Grace, so don't be too scared of using them
    • Be careful and try to stay away from priority attacks, unless you are behind a Sub
    • Stay away from Steel-types or possible phazers, as they will usually ruin your day

    Team Options
    =========

    • VoltTurn users
    • Groudon to deal with Skarm and Scizor
    • MegaGar to trap threats that can hurt Skymin, like Skarmory and Zong
    • Ygod
    • Hazard setters, as Skymin can force switches well and rack up resid. SR is most important, as Skymin can reliably defeat Ho-Oh and Rockceus / Waterceus with SR up
    • Defog or Rapid Spin
    • Heatran to set up rocks and lure Ground-type attacks for Skymin to come in

    All-Out Attacker
    ########
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Seed Flare
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Healing Wish / Hidden Power fire
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    • Seed Flare and Air Slash for obvious reasons
    • Earth Power hits the Steels that resist Skymin's STABs
    • HP Fire can hit Scizor or Gene on the switch and kill
    • Healing Wish can let Skymin fully heal a damaged sweeper or wallbreaker, and is useful for breaking past stall teams or stuff that needs one of your team members at full health
    • HP Rock can be used to hit Ho-Oh relatively hard, and it will do consistent damage with LO factored in

    Set Details
    ========

    • Timid lets it outspeed, as Life Orb is good enough with Timid
    • Modest can be used with Lefties, but you again lose to Darkrai and max Speed Arceus formes
    • EVs let it outspeed everything up to Mewtwo

    Usage Tips
    ========

    • When using LO, don't be afraid to go with your gut, as the freedom to switch moves, and the high chance of a SpD drop with Seed Flare does not punish mispredictions much
    • However, be very careful on residual damage with LO, as it can bring you down to the point where a priority user like Ygod, Extreme-Killer and Scizor can pick you off without fail
    • Try to avoid priority as much as possible, especially if using LO, as Skymin is frail and vulnerable to it
    Team Options
    ========

    • Hazard setters
    • Defog or Rapid Spin
    • Stuff that beats Skarm and Zong (MegaGar or Ygod)
    • VoltTurn
    • Lures for Ground-type attacks (Heatran or something)

    Other Options
    ########

    • Choice Scarf
    • Choice Specs
    • SD set, but with only the movepool of Seed Bomb and Return. Good luck.
    • Aromatherapy
    • Dazzling Gleam
    • Leaf Storm
    • Energy Ball
    • Giga Drain
    • Toxic

    Checks and Counters
    #########
    • Ho-Oh
    • Mega Gengar
    • Levitating Steels (Zong and Skarm)
    • Scizor (CB Bullet Punch hurts)
    • Dialga (if no Earth Power)
    • Mega Charizard X / Y
    • Heatran
    • Kyurem-W
    • Sylveon
    • Blissey
    • Lugia
    • Revenge Killers
    • Stealth Rock
    • Status
    • Not much can deal with Skymin as well than say other special attackers, as the SpD drops from Seed Flare prevent Pokemon from winning one-on-one
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  2. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    I will add an all-out attacker set, as it does work with Skymin being able to dish out damage and switch moves is very good, but not right now. This is probably the most WIP thing I've done ever. Hitting the sack lol.
  3. TonsofPuppies

    TonsofPuppies

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    So glad this is finally being worked on. Shaymin-S is my favourite. I guess my first question is now that Hidden Power has a BP of 60, how viable is it (specifically HP Ice) in Gen VI, especially now that it gets Dazzling Gleam? Against targets that have a 4X weakness, it certainly has merit, but against anything else (even targets that are 2x weak), you might as well just use Air Slash. It'll have slightly less damage output (112.5 vs. 120), but the flinch chance is way more appetizing. HP Fire deals with Ferrothorn, Genesect, Scizor and Skarmory though and has significant merit too, though. Tough choice on that last moveslot.
  4. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    Is dazzling gleam really ever worth it over seed flare?

    Don't forget Healing Wish!
  5. TonsofPuppies

    TonsofPuppies

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    Dealing with all of the Dragon Pokemon that run amok? A 1/2 resisted Seed Flare hits with 90 BP, while a 2X effective Dazzling Gleam hits with 160 BP. Obviously the ~80% SpD drop is amazing, but is it worth it to lose that much power? Dazzling Gleam also gives it a way to decimate Darkrai and Yveltal.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    talking in respects to palkia and flare is better vs the dark types
  7. TonsofPuppies

    TonsofPuppies

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    This is true versus Darkrai, when factoring in STAB (Seed Flare will hit with 180 BP vs 160 BP for SE Dazzling Gleam), but not true against Yveltal because of it's Flying type. I guess you'd have to consider how big of a threat Yveltal is in the Ubers Metagame.
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    that and you are spamming air slash anyways
  9. Minority Suspect

    Minority Suspect

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    Is there any viability in a Choice Specs set? Sure it gets revenge killed by anything Scarfed but it's one of the few things that can immediately OHKO bulky Kyogre sets. Also +1 STAB Air Slash hurts and coupled with the flinch rate it's pretty incredible.
  10. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    Well, Dazzling Gleam can hit Ygod, Tina and Ray hard without resorting to HP Ice, which can give you another option. I mean, the really only better option for Skymin in this case is HP Fire. It really doesn't matter for the 4th coverage move, you can even just go for Healing Wish on Scarf if you're that crazy. That's why it's so hard to put in an extra move: Skymin is usually just spamming Seed Flare and Air Slash, and Earth Power is for Steels, so the 4th move is basically whatever.
  11. Nayrz

    Nayrz
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    I feel like Zekrom needs a mention here, Seed Flare does only around 25% to the standard scarf set while Air Slash does around 15%, and Zekrom can cause absolutely massive damage back (Earth Power does hit for around 50% but Scarfkrom is a revenge killer anyway so it would outspeed)

    252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 330-388 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (based on your given EV spread)
  12. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    Added Zekrom in checks/counters
  13. Piexplode

    Piexplode I COULD BE BANNED!

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    The specs set is viable and very much enjoys support from sticky web/thunder wave (literally the only thing outspeeding specs skymin with sticky web up is like scarf ho-oh lol or other scarfed skymin)
  14. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    I'll add Specs, and of course the All-Out Attacker set.
  15. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    Ok, I think I've gotten it to QC standards, so whoopie! But, some areas I think we should focus on are the set details for Scarf and Specs, as I think it's a bit.....sparse. But anyway, this is QC ready!
  16. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Overview - Mention that Skymin is immune to Sticky Web (Skymin is exceptionally good vs Web since it can antilead Smeargle and is immune + 127 Speed). Remove Gleam mention imo, its not that big of a buff

    SubSeed - Remove bulky Spread, Skymin absolutely needs Max Speed. Remove Earth Power mention since Skymin needs all four of its moveslots. Mention that Skymin is still very offensively threatening with Graced Flare/Slash under usage tips so don't be afraid to launch a few attacks. Emphasize Stealth Rock support to help deal with Ho-Oh (or using Rock/Water Arceus).

    Choice Scarf - Remove Dazzling Gleam, slash Hidden Power Fire with Earth Power and make 4th moveslot Healing Wish. I think you're underestimating how good Healing Wish is and overestimating the utility of Dazzling Gleam. Gleam only hits Yveltal who you really shouldn't be trying to revenge kill with Skymin (Sucker Punch too strong) and Giratina who are rare and don't appreciate Graced Flare anyway. Earth Power does more to Dialga/Zekrom and Seed Flare does more to Palkia (and Air Slash is your best bet at going for risky Kyurem revenges) so imo Gleam is unnecessary on this set. On the other hand, Healing Wish is awesome given Skymin's speed since against teams where it may not be so useful (stall) it basically gives you an extra life to one of your more useful wallbreakers or it can revive your check to something trying to set up on Skymin or what have you. It's an excellent utility move and you should include it.

    All-Out-Attacker - Make move slashes this:

    move 1: Seed Flare
    move 2: Air Slash
    move 3: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Healing Wish / Hidden Power Fire

    Again, Gleam isn't that useful, you can get by just by spamming Flare and Slash. Leftovers is really weak...maybe instead slash Meadow Plate to buff up Seed Flare while not having to deal with recoil damage. Remove mention of Modest nature (Timid all the way). Skymin tends to weaken bulky Steels with this set so mention GeoXern (can set up on Giratina) as a teammate imo.

    Choice Specs - Timid only nature. Same slashing as all-out-attacker.

    OO - Remove Healing Wish (slashed on some sets now) and put Dazzling Gleam in here. Add Aromatherapy (Skymin is a decent offensive user). Add Energy Ball (decently powered Grass STAB if you want to conserve Seed Flares). Add...Toxic...ugh (actually kinda useful to cripple Ho-Oh/Lugia).

    Counters - Ho-Oh is first imo. Mega Gengar second, then the floating steels. Make a general mention of Scarfers (Xern and Gene work too, not just Zekrom) and add priority (Arceus, Ray, Khan). Change Pink Blobs to just Blissey. Add Sylveon (Hyper Voice is annoying). Add Heatran (walls completely any set without Earth Power). Add Mega Charizard (both formes x4 resist Seed Flare and wreck Skymin though Air Slash can suck).

    Fireburn - Stop typing Skyrim instead of Skymin you idiot
    Alert to Sounds likes this.
  17. Reviver

    Reviver Banned deucer.

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    Add Ekiller and Scizor to list of checks.
  18. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
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    Made all the changes, but on Specs, why does Skymin need Healing Wish? Because Specs gives him wallbreaking abilities and would therefore do better against stall teams and use HP Fire over Healing Wish? Here are some calcs in which Specs HP Fire would be useful:

    252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 244-288 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Of course, Skymin can't break through Zong, as that's only a 3HKO at best, but it can hurt Skarm and Ferro, and can kill Gene and Scizor without fail. Healing Wish would have its merit, but I think HP Fire should be slashed b4 it.
  19. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    I'd like both Choice sets moved to OO, with Hack and Sweep's approval.

    The Choice Scarf set is extremely weak, with a middling offensive stat and mostly low base power moves (Seed Flare doesn't have great coverage). Although it reaches awesome speeds, it simply cannot OHKO much anything really, even most super effective targets, and relies on flinch hax for its niches and to revenge kill a lot of targets. It cannot consistently clean or revenge kill, and although it can (inconsistently) fulfill roles such as antileading Deoxys-S or such, it can't do so consistently and chances are you any team could probably restructure itself to better handle those threats, rather than using such an inconsistent set to try to cover its flaws. It's just very weak and flinch hax does not reliably compensate that.

    As for Choice Specs, I just don't really see the appeal over Life Orb, unless you can show me a good list of KOs Life Orb is missing out on. Skymin is so frail already that the recoil doesn't really matter (most priority will do a huge number after one round of SR, Scarfmons will OHKO it either way, etc) and is compensated in part by being forced out a little less easily (eg being locked into Seed Flare you're forced out very easily by stuff that needs to beware of Air Slash flinches or a coverage move), which can mean less SR damage. And you can use Healing Wish whenever. Again, unless Specs gets nice KOs I'd rather just have it in OO.

    Also, mention HP Rock in the moves section for Life Orb. It's not worth it on any of the other sets, but with LO it always OHKOs 252 HP Ho-Oh after SR. I'd also remove the Leftovers slash, Skymin is already so weak.
  20. TonsofPuppies

    TonsofPuppies

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    15
    In the BW2 analysis, it mentions putting Shaymin's HP IVs at 29 when using Life Orb:

    "The IVs serve a very particular purpose, namely to reduce Life Orb recoil, allowing Shaymin-S to survive 11 whiplashes instead of 10."
  21. Minority Suspect

    Minority Suspect

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2014
    Messages:
    626
    I'm the farthest thing from QC, but after doing tons of cals Life Orb appears to be superior to Choice Specs. Practically all of the OHKOs gained from using Specs are also obtainable with Life Orb so long as rocks are up, and what Ubers team isn't running rocks. These are some exceptions where Specs is superior, however they still require hazards and/or they are not entirely reliable.

    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 289-341 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 331-391 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 242-286 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 278-328 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 242-286 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
    252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 278-328 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 207-243 (64.2 - 75.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
    252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 237-280 (73.6 - 86.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes


    After rocks Specs can also get an unreliable 2HKO on Blissey minimizing on Toxic and Life Orb damage. However, all of these cals are very situational which makes Life Orb more appealing in general.
  22. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    448
    Took away Specs and Scarf and put them in OP after hearing Blue Jay and talking a bit with Steelskitty
  23. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    2,278
    About removing the Choice Scarf set, may I ask why exactly? I understand the argument of Shaymin-S being weak, but Choice Scarf has been a major Skymin set in both DPP and BW. What changed this generation?
  24. Haruno

    Haruno jiggle jiggle
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Jun 29, 2012
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    1,999
    It doesn't revenge what a scarf user should (arceus, opposing scarf users, mewtwos, deoxys, etc) thanks to being sr weak + pitifully weak. Not to mention thanks to its piss poor defenses it can't really afford to switchin to anything besides dedicated walls. Overall it lacks the power + utility to reliably revenge threats.
  25. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Messages:
    390
    I cannot speak for anything before BW2, as I did not play at the time.

    Compared to BW2, the metagame has shifted away from frailer offense and become bulkier, while Spikes stacking is much less effective than it was, all of which is very inconvenient for Pokemon like Shaymin-S which are rather weak and frail. Pokemon which wall or threaten it well have either become more prominent or been newly introduced; Ho-Oh is a much more prominent threat which easily abuses Choice sets (unless you try to squeeze in HP Rock but even that does not OHKO and is an awful move to be locked into or try to predict with), Mega Scizor easily takes any attack and threatens with priority, Mega Kangaskhan and Yveltal are powerful new priority users. Thundurus has also gained some popularity and the newly introduced Klefki can hamper Shaymin-S with its typing and Prankster Thunder Waves. There is generally just a lot more priority around, which is very inconvenient for a Pokemon that relied on an excellent (Specs) or totally elite (Scarf) Speed tier.

    Which brings me to a key advantage it has lost. Shaymin-S could boast being able to revenge kill things that essentially nothing else could. It could outspeed the fastest Scarf Pokemon, even the quite popular Terrakion or the occasional Scarf Darkrai. It could revenge kill Kabutops in rain, which was typically faster than any other Pokemon (even faster than Scarf Terrakion if it used a Jolly nature). It could revenge kill an Adamant Excadrill in sand, and only few ever used Jolly (some prior damage was needed, but this was not hard between entry hazards and the common Life Orb recoil). Weather sweepers and very fast Scarf Pokemon have both declined heavily in usage in XY, and with the change in weather mechanics weather sweepers have become far less threatening, which has left Shaymin-S struggling for any niche beyond flinch haxing Deoxys-S, revenge killing an occasional Rock Polish Groudon and being a very subpar revenge killer or cleaner otherwise which is heavily dependent on flinches.

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