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Shaymin Testing

Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by Aeolus, Sep 27, 2008.

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  1. Aeolus

    Aeolus Bag
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    Aftering chatting in #is... we are going to go ahead with "Skymin" testing. I've asked DJD to reimplement the suspect test ladder with ONLY that pokemon removed. As of now, the testing procedure is planned to go the same way as with Garchomp... so if you don't want to happen say so now please. Thanks all.
  2. matty

    matty I did stuff a long time ago for the site
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    Same deal with voting or any new details?
  3. Aeolus

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    Same deal... it worked pretty splendidly last time once we figured out the logistics. The only difference I'd like to see is a longer testing period (I like 2 months) since Shaymin is completely new whereas Garchomp was not. The length of the test is the area I want input on the most, though... I just ask you all to remember that internet time is more compressed that real life time (a week can seem an eternity sometimes).
  4. DougJustDoug

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    Everyone's ratings on the Suspect ladder will be "reset" for the new test. So, no one will carry any baggage or benefit from the previous Suspect test. There is no reason for anyone to make new alts or anything. Unless, you would like to make your id match your Smogon nick, just to avoid confusion when registering for voting.
  5. Caelum

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    Yeah, Suspect Test really should be at least 2 months (I'd really like 3 but that might be pushing it) with Skymin. I'd honestly prefer to have a month before implementing a testing ladder since it seems a bit early to call it "a suspect" it's more of one of those "person of interest" right now.
  6. matty

    matty I did stuff a long time ago for the site
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    I'm gonna disagree that I think this thing is a little to broken for standard, but I may be wrong and this is why we have the testing in the first place.

    One last question is when are we going to let the rest of the community know? (Just wondering out of curiosity)

    EDIT: I agree that testing should start ASAP. I don't think that 2 months is necessary to see if something is broken. It should be fairly obvious in about a month. I'd vote with 1 month on the testing of Shaymin
  7. Maniaclyrasist

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    Shaymin maybe completely new but I don't think 2 months is going to make that much more difference than one month in terms of how people play (I could be wrong) but it still seems unecessarily long. To be honest, anything longer than a month seems like overkill.

    I'd call Scizor, Zapdos and Heatran "people/pokemon of interesting" for the moment, nothing else is causing as much controversy as Shaymin-S. I don't think we would be wrong in calling it a suspect as of right now.
  8. Aeolus

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    Waiting any time at all to implement the suspect test ladder makes no sense at all... as I've already gone through twice in #insidescoop with both zerowing and Tangerine.

    By adding the suspect test ladder now, we are not taking away the standard ladder. The game as it sits right now will continue to be available, unchanged, throughout the entire testing period. It will develop normally and all players will be able to determine their feelings about it. In this way, the implementation of the additional ladder has NO impact whatsoever on the standard ladder.

    Further, by starting the test as soon as possible we prevent strong voting biases from forming. If we let the game sit for another month, people will get themselves entrenched into an "yes/no" opinion before really having a chance to collect the adequate information and experience necessary to come to a decision. We saw this phenomenon with Garchomp. Many people had already made up their minds how they were going to vote before the testing had even started... they simply jumped through the hoops to get voting status and were never swayed by the actual experience. This is avoided by adding the test ladder now.

    In sum, I cannot think of a single drawback to implementing the ladder now despite several people seeming to have a negative "gut" reaction that they cannot back up with any real reason.

    I'm going to post an announcement when we have a consensus on how long the test should last. If one cannot be reached in 2 days I'll probably just decide myself.
  9. JabbaTheGriffin

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    2 months is a very very long time. 1 month should be adequate.
  10. Caelum

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    My only concern is that it's quite probable that many players will just play the Suspect ladder for the month/two months and then go back to the standard ladder the last 2 days to meet the voting requirements. This would give them about a month or two of play testing without Skymin and about 2 weeks with it. With Garchomp, that was a non-issue since it was already in the metagame for months. That's my only objection to it starting so early but if no one else finds that a concern so be it. At least the constant discussion about it being uber might cease.
  11. gorm

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    I really feel like we should wait for a stabler metagame to get "established". Having a decent point of reference is important for testing suspects and every team being scizor heatran skymin mamo suicide lead mence etc doesn't exactly seem like a stable metagame.

    I'd really love to call shaymin completely destabilizing right off the bat because that's my gut feeling, and i really would not be surprised if subsequent testing does result in banning; but I have to agree with caelum.
  12. imperfectluck

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    I think 2 months is more appropriate than 1 month, as right now everyone is having a party using Scizor/Salamence and all the other Platinum toys as has been said

    Nominating Deoxys-S for retesting after this
  13. Maniaclyrasist

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    No one is preventing people from playing the Standard Ladder then going to Suspect Ladder to meet voting requirements, vice versa, or just playing both ladders equally. People will do what they feel like regardless of whenever we choose to implement the Suspect Ladder.
  14. Caelum

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    Of course they would, but if the user makes the choice to almost exclusively play on Suspect ladder it's possible they only played for 2 weeks with Skymin (and the first week people were just screwing around with random crap anyway) and now they will decide it's tiering fate. If the option of the Suspect Ladder was held off for just a smaller amount of time that problem could be avoided entirely. This wasn't an issue with Garchomp since it had been in the metagame for months, Skymin has been here for less then 2 weeks.
  15. Havak

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    I wouldn't mind seeing a metagame with Shaymin-S, Deoxys-S and Garchomp allowed. All three could cancel eachother out, though they may end up on every team... but that's already happening with other Pokémon lol.

    But I support Shaymin-S testing for ASAP.

    Also agreeing with Maniac about re-testing Deoxys-S at a later date.
  16. twash

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    I would like to see testing last two months. One month is too short imo, and three is just too long. I don't think we should worry about it being too short of a time period to make a decision, I think two months is very adequate, so far many people have already made their minds up due to a lot of teams carrying Shaymin-S, so there would be a clear difference between the Suspect and Standard ladders, so people could make the decision in two months. If we went for one month I think that WOULD be too short a time that Shaymin-S was in the metagame.
  17. Aldaron

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    Yea uhh, to test a completely new variable (especially in a new metagame), 1 or even 2 months is not nearly enough.

    It took Garchomp around at least six months to go from maybe-kinda-potentially-but not really uber to suspect status.

    If we want to learn a lot about Skymin regarding its effect on the metagame, 2 months is not enough.

    Also, why was it decided that Skymin would be a suspect already?

    Yea, it's really good. So what? The platinum metagame hasn't even come close to being somewhat stable.

    Right now, sorry to say, but it seems like we are definitely jumping the gun by throwing Skymin into suspect. I mean, barely a week into playing a metagame and we already have decided on its suspect status?

    Comon. If you want the subjective opinion of someone who has been playing consistently in the past week, and who has both used and fought against Skymin, it would be that it isn't even the most potent threat. I am MUCH more worried about Scarf Heatran and its ability to dent me with Fire Blast / Overheat or Explode on me. Also, Dragon Dance Salamence, both the fully offensive Life Orb set and the new BulkyMence with Lum Berry that I am using have given me significantly more issues than Skymin.

    Can we continue testing Deoxys-S, and consider Skymin after some more time?
  18. Taylor

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    I agree entirely with Aldaron. Gorm also touched upon how we don't have a frame of reference because we haven't given Shaymin enough time in this metagame, let alone a metagame without it for a potential banning. And I think both make a valid point.

    I believe that we should wait until we have finished with Deoxys-S, should he be the next suspect. After that, we will have past a reasonable ammount of time where we may have enough experience and knowledge about Shaymin-s, and where we can conclude whether or not Shaymin-s deems to be a suspect or not.

    I think one month is fine, once we have given Shaymin-s some time in the current metagame.
  19. twash

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    Do we have any clue when we are testing Deoxys-S? I think Shaymin-S should be tested after, so say we tested Deoxys-S for a month(?), then go through the process, then Shaymin-S would possibly be ready to test over say, two or three months?
  20. Maniaclyrasist

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    You have to realise that the only person that would do this is a person that has already decided in their mind that Shaymin-S is Uber. That is the only reason they would avoid playing the Standard Ladder, in favour of the Suspect Ladder. It works the other way as well, if a person firmly believes that Shaymin-S is not Uber then they will continue playing the Standard Ladder and only touch on Suspect Ladder to meet voting requirements.

    It's exactly as Aeolus said, the longer we just let the metagame sit the more likely we're going to see a stong bias among the people, similar to what happened to Garchomp.

    It took D/P in excess to 3-4 months to be come "somewhat stable" and even then it was still constantly changing, an extra month waiting won't exactly do us any favours.

    It does sound kind of arbitrary but if Shaymin-S is the only Pokemon causing any kind of controversy amoung players about beinng Uber, there are complaints everywhere about how it should be moved to Ubers or at least tested. Even Garchomp or Manaphy didn't get this kind of publicity when they were allowed at the start of the D/P metagame. As far as I'm concerned I don't think we would be wrong in saying Shaymin-S is definitely a suspect.
  21. Aeroblacktyl

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    1 or 2 months is fine imo. any longer and we'll be on the eve of a new generation before you figure out what you even want. remember, we have a lot more things to test!
  22. Great Sage

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    While I do believe that Skymin is a very potent threat and it will eventually become a suspect, it would be malpractice at this point to call it a suspect before Platinum settles. Give it about two more weeks, I'd say.
  23. Havak

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    I agree with MoP, we're like two years into generation four and we have almost fuck all sorted lol. If we're gonna have to wait months to sort out one Pokémon it'll be generation five before this one is stable.
  24. maddog

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    I think that the quicker we do this, the better. Skymin definetly is a suspect, considering some of the patterns I've seen on the Offical and Smogon ladders. If we delay, it delays the rest of our tests, which we have been waiting too long for anyway.
  25. Aeolus

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    There will be no delay in starting the test.

    The only reason given for doing so is that the game hasn't settled and they'd like to wait a month. What all you people fail to see is that the test is AT LEAST that long... giving you the time your asking for in order to let the game "settle" (whatever that means). The objection that 'Skymin' isn't a suspect is bs too... it took me about 5 minutes investigation on Shoddy and IRC to determine that. The very fact that we are debating it here affirms that fact.

    Additionally, the test may very well confirm what some of you say. He might turn out to be perfectly viable in the standard metagame and that is a decision that can be made now.
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