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Shelgon [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by TickingSeedotBomb, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    [​IMG]

    [Overview]

    <p>Last generation, Shelgon was seldom considered outside of NU, as it has lackluster base stats despite being the pre-evolution of the mighty Salamence. Shelgon's horrible Special Defense, Speed, and HP stats aren't its only problems; its mediocre base 95 Attack leaves much to be desired. However, with the generous gift of the Eviolite, Shelgon can fill a specific role on your team as a physically defensive Pokemon. With access to Wish and Roar, Shelgon can function as an effective Dragon-type wall, standing out from its competitors. Furthermore, Shelgon can be a defensive Dragon Dance sweeper, enabling it to shrug off physical blows while setting up. With all these traits, Shelgon has a valuable niche in UU.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive Dragon Dance
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Eviolite
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 204 SpD / 28 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Defensive Dragon Dance is the way to go on Shelgon. An offensive Dragon Dance set makes Shelgon completely inferior to Kingdra, so it's best to abuse Rest + Sleep Talk and the Eviolite. With key resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric, an amazing offensive type in Dragon, and a great Defense stat, Shelgon can shrug off hits while it sets up. Rest and Sleep Talk allow you to recover health and set up or attack while asleep. Outrage is a neat STAB move that tears holes in most non-Steel-type Pokemon after a few Dragon Dances. This rinse-and-repeat combination allows Shelgon to pose as a threat to the opponent. The given EV spread provides Shelgon with some special bulk as it already has a high Defense stat, allowing Shelgon to take most attacks with ease. The 28 Speed EVs allows Shelgon to comfortably outspeed Pokemon with a base Speed of 110 after three Dragon Dances instead of four.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Dragon Claw serves as a fine option over Outrage if you feel that the confusion from Outrage will get the better of Shelgon. Keep in mind, however, that when Outrage is executed during Sleep Talk, it will not leave Shelgon confused, nor will it lock Shelgon into Outrage. Utilizing a Careful nature isn’t recommended, as the Defense bonus from the Impish nature is generally higher than the Special Defense boost granted to you by a Careful nature. Although it appears that Wish is superior to Rest, and Sleep Talk, Wish is illegal with Dragon Dance.</p>

    <p>Shelgon loathes Ice-types, especially Abomasnow, which can claim an OHKO on Shelgon with a chilling Blizzard. Slowbro or Slowking carrying Flamethrower or Fire Blast can barbecue Abomasnow and its band of Ice-types, and Scald deals super effective damage to Ground-type Pokemon that wall Shelgon. Empoleon is an amazing partner for Shelgon; it sets up Stealth Rock, enabling Shelgon to nab a few KOs with Outrage after Stealth Rock damage, and sponges Ice-type attacks that would make short work of Shelgon. In addition, Shelgon resists the Electric-type moves that target the metallic penguin.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Toxic / Roar
    move 4: Dragon Claw
    item: Eviolite
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Shelgon is unique from other Dragon-types, as it is more defensively oriented and obtains Wish. Shelgon can be a chore to take down without special attacks; in fact, this variant carries as much physical bulk as a Cresselia with the same EV spread and nature! Shelgon also supports one's team with 167 HP Wishes. Wish and Protect allow you to restore HP to take more physical blows, and Protect acts as an excellent scouting move as well. Toxic allows Shelgon to break through walls that are not Steel- or Poison-type. Roar is useful in conjunction with entry hazards, in paticular Toxic Spikes, and it can also phaze away physical attackers that attempt to set up on Shelgon. Dragon Claw takes the cake in the last slot as a reliable STAB attack. It prevents Shelgon from being a complete Taunt bait while giving a way to deal consistent damage to the opponent.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Body Slam is an option over Toxic or Roar if paralysis support is necessary. However, it is unreliable, only paralyzing the opposing Pokemon 30% of the time, so it is generally inferior. An EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD with a Careful nature merits a mention to abuse Shelgon's unique resistances, but it no longer takes physical attacks as well as it could; Choice Band Heracross always 2HKOes 252 HP / 4 Def Shelgon with Close Combat, even with Eviolite.</p>

    <p>As always, Shelgon struggles with Ice-types, such as Abomasnow and Froslass. Hitmontop destroys Ice- and Steel-type Pokemon, and can make use of Rapid Spin to remove entry hazards, enabling Shelgon to switch in without receiving entry hazard damage. Scolipede and Nidoqueen can set up Toxic Spikes, while the former can even lay Spikes to maximize Shelgon's walling potential and allowing Roar to force the opponent to take entry hazards damage.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Shelgon's choices are essentially limited to those listed in the sets. Brick Break cannot really fit into a moveslot on the sets, as it is quite weak, even when hitting super effectively. Although Shelgon can use an offensive EV spread on the Dragon Dance set, it is outclassed by other Dragon Dance users, such as Kingdra, which boasts better coverage, higher offensive stats, and is not dependent on Eviolite.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Trick or Knock Off is especially threatening to Shelgon, removing its precious Eviolite. Trick will likely bestow upon Shelgon a Choice item, which will ruin its attempts to set up with Dragon Dance from that moment on. Nevertheless, Protect can guard against Trick and Knock Off. Super effective attacks, even physical ones, can force out or crush Shelgon. Fraxure, Kingdra, and Altaria can simply spam Outrage to fell our pupa-staged dragon. Steel-types walk all over Shelgon and take practically nothing from Shelgon's STAB attacks. Mismagius and Mew can burn Shelgon with Will-O-Wisp, crippling Shelgon and preventing it from doing much damage. Kingdra that have managed to set up two Dragon Dances wreck physically defensive Shelgon with Outrage if the shelled dragon lacks Roar. Kingdra with one Dragon Dance annihilates defensive Dragon Dance Shelgon with Outrage.</p>
  2. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    You need the Bulky DD set:

    name: Bulky Dragon Dance
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Dragon Dance
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Eviolite
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
  3. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    Ah yes! I remember seeing that a few times, but I forgot about that one. should I also slash Dragon Claw as an option over Outrage? or is the power absolutely needed?
  4. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    i think dragon claw should be slashed in. locking yourself in on outrage on that kind of set doesnt make sense. also why use restalk when there is wish protect? seems a lot better

    also those evs are really inefficient. im not good at ev spreads but either mix it a better way or use a careful nature. sorry i cant help making one.
  5. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    I would rather get rid of status and get back at full health, instead of using Wish.
  6. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
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    tbh I really wouldn't use shelgon in the first place, but maybe that's just me. Wish is meh on it since it has shitty HP. It has roughly 1.5x (if the calcs I do off the top of my mind are right) the defence of chansey but has nowhere near the same special bulk.

    anyway, prem is right; the nature on the dder should be careful and not impish.
  7. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Okay, a few problems:

    1) Wish is illegal with Dragon Dance, IIRC, so take DD out of the first set. Wish was an event move, and DD was an egg move. In its place, you can use Roar.
    2) Defensive DD set may be better off running some Speed. I don't know what the benchmarks are, so it may be better for some extra testing.
    3) In the Other Options section where you mention offensive DD, mention that it's outclassed by Kingdra, who has better typing and Water STAB. I was about to suggest offensive DD when I remembered that Kingdra exists.
    4) Can you please name Shelgon's Dream World ability? Something like "Shelgon gets Overcoat in Dream World". We know it gets it, but you should be explicit on it.
  8. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I'm not exactly sure you know how EVs work here. Since Defense is Shelgon's highest stat, if you want to invest in Defense at all, you're better off using your nature on it, since you get more raw stats in general. You can never get more than 19 (28 after Eviolite) points from a Careful nature, while you get 23 (35 after Eviolite) from an Impish nature even without any investment.

    On top of that, those EVs were originally designed for the Drought meta, where it was never OHKOed by a +2 Adamant Life Orb Sawsbuck's STAB Double-Edge. Unless you can point to a specific thing you get out of the extra Special Defense, Impish nature should stay.

    Also, Outrage doesn't lock you in when called via Sleep Talk, and if you get enough boosts, being locked in really doesn't matter.
  9. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Besides, it's not like you have... any other attacks... to switch between. Dragon Claw is better on Dragons that have more varied offensive options, like a powerful Fire Blast and Earthquake to fall back on. Shelgon is dedicated to Dancing and spamming Dragon attacks-- Outrage is clearly the better option, especially when considering Shelgon's pretty average ATK score. The fact that Sleep Talk prevents you from being locked into Outrage is icing on the cake. (this links back to why RestTalk is better than wish protect, though as stated earlier, DD + Wish is illegal)

    btw, the fact that Sleep Talk side-steps Outrage's weak point should be mentioned, as not all readers are aware of this.

    The OP (or others) are free to suggest additions to Speed, or other alterations if you have notable calcs and real battle experience. The nature, as SDS has mentioned, really should stay Impish.
  10. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    Thanks for those comments! My bad, Wish is illegal with Dragon Dance so I edited those out of the defensive Shelgon set. I'm not sure if any speed EV's are worth it. I've only really tested the bulky set. Bulky DD I tested only a few times. I'll test out the defensive DD set some more and I'll see what the stats are after each boost.

    Edit: Did some more testing and here's what I got for stats with each DD boost

    +1 339 / 204
    +2 452 / 272
    +3 565 / 340
    +4 678 / 408
    +5 791 / 476
    +6 904 / 544

    I have to say. bulky DD with RestTalk is an awesome set. unless you get taunted, you can setup on pokemon like Moltres who can't even harm you. You really only need to get up to + 4 but + 5 is always good to outspeed Scarfers. Despite taking so many boosts to get up to a good speed stat, it has the bulk to set up those DD's so it's really no problem for Shelgon. Speed EV's aren't really necessary imo
  11. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
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    anywho, make the evs 252 HP / 244 SpD / 12 Speed if you want to make any mention of speed. this allows you to outspeed no speed rotom h at +1.
  12. V0x

    V0x Glycine G
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    anyway, I've found 28 Speed to be decently useful, as after +2 you outspeed +base 80s (namely, Mamoswine), whose LO Ice Shard doesn't do nearly enough to harm you
  13. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    hmm 28 speed's not much and outspeeding Mamoswine after 2 boosts is always great. Ok, I'll edit the OP along with giving it a careful nature slashed in.
  14. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    i was more on the point that running a spread with 252hp/4def/252 spd with an impish nature is inefficent and that with a different spread you will get a bonus point in def or spd. i just wish i knew how it exactly worked....
  15. Chou Toshio

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    @the stuff I deleted-- Defense is Shelgon's highest stat, therefore to maximize overall bulk, Impish is the best nature. Did you guys even read SDS's post thoroughly? Unless there's a specific special attack you need Careful to survive, there's no point in a nature other than Impish. Likewise, unless there's a specific physical attack that you need to survive, you might as well balance out your defenses by giving it Special Defense.

    No more comments on the EV spread without caculations for specific, highly relevant attacks... >:(

    edit: A little info on EVs/Nature

    Defense + Special Defense:
    252 HP / 252 Sp.D Careful Shelgon: 454 (236 + 218)
    252 HP / 252 Sp.D Impish Shelgon: 458 (259 + 199)
    252 HP / 252 Def Impish Shelgon: 464 (328 + 136)

    Impish + Special Defense nets you more points while giving you acceptable bulk on both fronts. It is more efficient than 252 sp.Def Careful.
  16. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    Thank you very much Chou. I was starting to get a bit confused.
  17. Chou Toshio

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    Yeah, 28 Speed sounds good; otherwise, max HP and Special Defense.
  18. Flare Blitzle

    Flare Blitzle

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    In the Dream World section you should probably mention that Outrage, Wish and Sleep Talk are all illegal with Overcoat.
  19. Rackham

    Rackham

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    Shouldn't Dragon Tail get a mention on the first set? Probably only AC worthy, though allows you to phaze and damage if running Toxic over Roar.

    EDIT: Whoops didn't realise that. Sorry.
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

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    Check Veekun, kindly. Shelgon doesn't get it.
  21. breh

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    I frankly can't tell if you guys are trolling me or not.

    assume 252 HP / 252 Def / 4SpD Chansey.
    Chansey with Calm gets 704/109/271.
    Chansey with Bold gets 704/119/247.

    109+271>119+247, so calm is superior right?

    yet, bold seems to be the most common nature on chansey. why do you think that is?

    the point is the same with shelgon. it doesn't matter if it's more efficient. shelgon is taking physical hits well enough. it doesn't need an impish nature to help it with that. however, its special defence is awful. the greater you can make it, the better. to get the most statistically efficient set does not mean the most practical. As chou very conveniently noted for me, Shelgon with max def and HP is the most efficient set; that does not mean it is good.
  22. Snunch

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    Shelgon does not take physical hits well enough to completely ignore its defense. Adamant Heracross' CC 2HKOs the majority of the time with a careful nature, and almost never with an Impish nature. For this reason, 24 EVs should be moved from SpD to Def, to always avoid the 2HKO.
  23. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    ok. I moved 24 SpD EV's over to Defense. I'm assuming most of this discussion is about the Bulky DD set so that's where I changed the SpD EV's (because physically bulky set doesn't have any SpD ev's except the 6 so...)
  24. TickingSeedotBomb

    TickingSeedotBomb

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    Ok. Ready for QC checks. I don't think Shelgon can use any other sets effectively and there's not much other changes to be made to the sets. (unless I'm missing a few things)
  25. Chou Toshio

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    What Snunch said.

    Calm Chansey would be better if not for the fact that Bold Chansey still shits on all special attackers. Shelgon still needs to invest in DEF to take physical hits. As SDS said, if you plan to invest AT ALL in the stat with the higher base stat, put your nature in there.

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