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UU Shiftry [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by unfixable, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
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    Discussed with Ernesto for a bit today, Defog will not be getting a set unless more QC Members approve it, instead, Swords Dance will be the only one included.
    Overview

    ########

    Shiftry has a niche in the UU metagame thanks to its powerful STAB moves, Knock Off and Sucker Punch, the latter of which is also a priority move. Grass-type STAB moves are very appreciated in a tier filled with bulky Water-types such as Slowbro and Suicune, and they also get nice neutral coverage alongside Shiftry's Dark-type STAB moves. Shiftry can also use its wide special movepool to catch physically defensive Pokemon off-guard, unlike other setup sweepers. However, Shiftry doesn't have much bulk, making it a lot harder for it to set up. Shiftry is very reliant on Sucker Punch because of its middling Speed, which can easily be taken advantage of. Its base 100 Attack is not very high before a boost as well. Shiftry's typing leaves it weak to common Flying-, Fire-, Ice-, Bug-, and Fairy-type attacks, which gives it trouble switching in. Shiftry receives competition from other sweepers such as Lucario and Heracross. Its abilities are also quite useless because Shiftry cannot be put to sleep via Spore, while sun is rather uncommon in UU, and Pickpocket is extremely gimmicky. Finally, Shiftry receives competition from Cacturne; despite lacking Knock Off and being slower, Cacturne can wall Slowbro and other Water-types with its ability, which Shiftry cannot do.

    Swords Dance
    ########
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Knock Off
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Seed Bomb
    ability: Chlorophyll
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    nature: Adamant

    Moves
    ========

    Swords Dance bolsters Shiftry's Attack stat to threatening levels in a single turn. Knock Off is a very spammable move that cripples many Pokemon that are reliant on items and is also a strong STAB move. Sucker Punch is a powerful STAB move that allows Shiftry to hit many faster attackers such as Victini and allows it pick off weakened foes. Seed Bomb is Shiftry's most consistent STAB move that hits bulky Water-types such as Suicune very hard. Leaf Storm is a nifty option because it nails physical walls; if it is used, Naughty is the nature of choice. Low Kick nails Mega Aggron and has good overall coverage, but it has little use outside of this.

    Set Details
    ========

    Life Orb enables Shiftry to hit as hard as possible, and because Shiftry isn't exceptionally bulky by any means, the recoil is not too detrimental. The listed EVs maximize Shiftry's offensive potential. An Adamant nature is chosen over a Jolly nature because it enables Shiftry to hit even harder and a Jolly nature doesn't outspeed anything notable. Lum Berry is an alternative option if Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp are a concern, but Life Orb's power increase will be missed. An alternative bulkier spread of 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe is an option to give Shiftry a bit more bulk while allowing it to outspeed uninvested base 100 Speed Pokemon such as Mew.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Knock Off is best used early-game thanks to its utility, while Swords Dance should be saved until late-game to allow Shiftry to sweep. Sucker Punch is very reliant on prediction, so be wary, as the opponent can predict this and either set up a Substitute or use a status move; using a coverage move such as Knock Off is often more useful in these situations. Shiftry truly shines as a late-game cleaner to sweep weakened teams. Finally, avoiding status is crucial, so stay away from potential status users, as practically all forms of status cripple Shiftry.

    Team Options
    ========

    Slow U-turns or Volt Switches are the best ways to bring in Shiftry safely, as its lack of resistances and bulk makes it hard for it to switch in directly; Mega Ampharos makes a good partner because of its resistances to Fire-, Flying-, and Water-type moves, along with its ability to provide Heal Bell support. Similarly, Memento and dual screens support are effective, making Dugtrio a good partner, as it can trap and eliminate Fire-types and can also provide a switch-in opportunity with Memento. Azelf is also a good offensive partner that can aid Shiftry with its access to dual screens, and it can set up Stealth Rock as well. Rotom-Heat resists all of Shiftry's weaknesses except Fighting and can bring it in safely with Volt Switch, while Shiftry can take Water-type moves in return. Thunder Wave support is also greatly appreciated to slow down faster threats; this can be provided by Pokemon such as Mega Aggron and Mew. Finally, entry hazard support from the likes of Froslass is very beneficial to wear down bulkier switch-ins and to enable Shiftry to pick off weakened resists like Mienshao and Heracross at +2.

    Other Options
    ########

    Defog sets are viable, but entry hazard removal is better left to other Pokemon such as Blastoise, as Shiftry's lack of bulk makes this very difficult to pull off. Shiftry can run a special set using Nasty Plot to bolster its Special Attack, and it has the movepool to back it up as well. Focus Blast is a usable coverage move, although its accuracy is a bit unreliable. Giga Drain is an option for a STAB move that also regains health. SubSeed is an option, but such sets are vastly outclassed by Shaymin, and Shiftry's lack of bulk prevents these sets from being very effective. Rock Slide hits Flying- and Fire-type switch-ins, but it is otherwise fairly weak. Tailwind is a nifty option as a last-ditch resort to bring in a sweeper with increased Speed. Similarly, Explosion is another last-ditch option, although it comes at the expense of Shiftry's remaining HP. Icy Wind, while very weak, hits faster switch-ins and helps to make up for Shiftry's average Speed. Sun support can be used with Chlorophyll, but sun does not last long enough to be useful, potentially rendering this set unviable . Finally, as a warning, do not use Fake Out; it is weak and does not accomplish anything significant.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Super Effective Attacks**: Shiftry is weak to common Fighting-, Flying-, Poison-, Bug-, Ice-, and Fairy-types. Some of these Pokemon do have secondary types, however, which can allow Shiftry to play around them. Some Pokemon that fare well against Shiftry include Lucario, Heracross, Drapion, Granbull, and Honchkrow; all of these Pokemon resist Sucker Punch and can hit back hard with their respective STAB moves. Some Pokemon like Victini and Crobat can be beaten if they switch into Knock Off and are KOed by +2 Sucker Punch, so keep this in mind. However, bulkier Pokemon that resist Shiftry's moves, such as Drapion and Granbull, are great counters.

    **Fletchinder**: Fletchinder resists Seed Bomb and is not hit hard by Knock Off because it does not usually carry an item. Sucker Punch can also be played around with Will-O-Wisp, which can be followed by Acrobatics for a clean OHKO.

    **Status**: Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave instantly cripple Shiftry, while Toxic slowly wears it down.

    **Priority**: Priority moves such as Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch, and Ice Shard can outspeed Sucker Punch's priority and hit Shiftry hard.

    **Hydreigon**: Hydreigon resists Shiftry's STAB moves and can easily threaten Shiftry in return with Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, and even U-turn.

    **Faster Pokemon that Resist Sucker Punch**: Heracross, Hydreigon, and Lucario all resist Sucker Punch and can OHKO Shiftry with their respective STAB moves.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  2. The Shellder Smuggler

    The Shellder Smuggler Banned deucer.

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    Real quick, checks and counters should be listed as:

    **Super effective attacks**:

    **Status**:

    **Priority**:

    **Mega Ampharos**:

    **Faster Pokemon that Resist Sucker Punch Faster Fighting-types**:
  3. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    What gets ice shard thats gonna be a problem? Donphan or Piloswine? I wouldnt even mention it. Maybe vacuum wave instead, or even espeed.

    Also I wouldnt make weaknesses its own check section. I would do it like

    **Fighting types**: Lucario, Virizion, and Cobalion in particular since they outspeed, resist seed bomb, and resist and get a Justified boost from sucker punch.

    **Flying types** crobat etc

    **Fire types** arcanine (intimidate), entei etc.

    Maybe give bug moves a mention, so like anything with uturn will KO. Every single weakness doesnt deserve a piece imo. Remove poison,fairy, and ice imo.

    Also you have 2 dark type stabs, with a grass stab slashed. Sucker punch is pretty important..so maybe slash Low Kick with Knock off on the last slot so it looks like this

    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Seed Bomb
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Knock Off / Low Kick

    Grass STAB is pretty importnt in a tier with so many bulky water types(blastoise, suicune, swampert, cloyster, starmie, slowbro/king, just to name a few). This looks pretty good so far, great work. :)
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
  4. The Shellder Smuggler

    The Shellder Smuggler Banned deucer.

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    Knock off is a mandatory stab that is reliable and does more damage, and provides great utility for knocking off items, it should stay. Low kick is better off being slashed, as you only notably hit mega aggron with it.
  5. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    Theres no point in using shiftry if you arent using seed bomb. Otherwise its outclassed by any other dark type with swords dance. Seed bomb ia mandatory if youre a grass type in this tier filled with water. You dont even need low kick tbh, mega aggron will beat you anyway.
  6. The Shellder Smuggler

    The Shellder Smuggler Banned deucer.

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    You basically just reworded what I just said in a ruder tone. All I'm saying is keep both dark moves and prioritize seed bomb.
  7. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    No I wasnt being rude lol, and no. I said seed bomb is mandatory, not knock off. Seed bomb shouldnt be slashed with anything, is what im saying.

    You cant even beat mega blastoise without seed bomb...take low kick off and put it in OO, in my opinion.
  8. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
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    I know that, but I'm not in the GP stage yet :p. This was just for better organization.

    Comments in bold :]

    Also, at the above comments: You can't seriously think that Knock Off isn't more amazing than Seed Bomb, right? Knock Off provides utility in removing items, it's powerful and spammable, and it is reliable to top it all off. Sucker Punch can't do that at times. Seed Bomb is not moving up unless a QC member specifically says otherwise, but I'm not going to do it.
    The Shellder Smuggler likes this.
  9. HypnoEmpire

    HypnoEmpire Yokatta...

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    The problem with Ice Shard is that Donphan won't be using it because it's so weak and Cloyster won't be staying in on Shiftry anytime soon. The only other user of Ice Shard would be Abomasnow, but I don't think it's common enough to have to be wary of it.
    Water Drone likes this.
  10. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
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    I guess n__n I'll remove it (but I'm not adding Vacuum Wave or Extreme Speed as already explained)
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  11. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    Of course Knock Off is an overall better move, im saying why would you use it when you have sucker, obviously it has its uses over it.

    Extremespeed is obviously to avoid sucker punch..entei arcanine lucario, though luc doesnt mind s punch.

    Vacuum wave I guess doesnt need a mention,but Toxicroak nape and luc get it.

    Lol if you mention Ice Shard donphan ill laugh.

    While were on priority, you could probs mention Fletchinder even if its not too common.

    Also I wasnt insisting Knock Off is worse than seed bomb, im just trying to say seed bomb needs its own slash.

    In the case of the set you have right now, lets say you dont use seed bomb. Why would you use this set over preferred swords dance dark typed like absol and zoroark. You wouldnt, imo. Thats why i think seed bomb deserves its own slash.
  12. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
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    Since you seem to keep bringing up Water-types:
    • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 265-313 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 247-292 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 290-343 (71.7 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 224-265 (92.5 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 507-601 (128.6 - 152.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Notice how all take massive damage in the process? It uses Swords Dance as the Water-type switches in, not that hard. But, honestly, who would send in a Water-type on Shiftry? Seed Bomb / Leaf Storm obviously scare them off, so I'm not really sure what they'd accomplish.
  13. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    What exactly do you plan on setting up on?
    And again, if you dont use seed bomb, why would you even use shiftry over zoroark or absol? All it has over those mons is more weaknesses, and seed bomb of course.
  14. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
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  15. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    Why the fuck would a water type ever switch into a grass type. Are you even listening?
  16. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
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    No need to be rude, calm down. Seriously, drop the discussion, unless a QC member says so, it's not happening.
    "Grass STAB is pretty importnt in a tier with so many bulky water types(blastoise, suicune, swampert, cloyster, starmie, slowbro/king, just to name a few). This looks pretty good so far, great work. :)"
    Yes, it is, but when will a Grass-type switch into Shiftry and when will it stay in should Shiftry stay in? It's really not amazing outside of this anywho and Knock Off does a number anyways. Just stop, please, it's cluttering the thread up.
  17. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    You never answered why you would use it over lets say absol or zoro.
  18. HypnoEmpire

    HypnoEmpire Yokatta...

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    The problem here is that Knock Off and Sucker Punch are necessary. Though Water Drone there was no need to be so rude. Just wait for QC to check this out if it's such a dilemma.
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  19. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    I understand, and I apologize, but Unfixable was ignoring every point I made. Sorry if you felt I was cluttering this. Ill let qc look at this before I say more, but I still think Seed Bomb is what seperates it from similar mons, and deserves its own slash.
  20. Timpsu

    Timpsu

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    I used SD Shiftry a bit in earlier phases of the metagame, and the reason why I thought Seed Bomb was mandatory was that bulky Water-types are the prime mons to set-up against. Ofc no Water-type will ever switch-in against Shiftry, but at the time, the tier was filled with defensive Water-types, which could easily be used as a setup-fodder. Because Shiftry was used mainly to counter Water-types, I only used enough Speed to outspeed 0 Speed Suicune, rest was put to bulk. Then again, I did play that Shiftry pretty similar to Cacturne (whereas Cacturne can avoid Scald hax with Water Absorb, Shiftry has higher Speed, meaning not as reliant on Sucker Punch, also Shiftry can use Knock Off). I just thought to contribute since the Seed Bomb/Knock Off discussion was on table. Short answer: Knock Off is amazing, and no Dark-type should ever give it up if it's at disposal, but then again, Seed Bomb let's you counter bulky Water- and Ground-types, and not using Seed Bomb (or other Grass-type move, such as Leaf Storm) seems a bit awkward on Shiftry.
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  21. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
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    I know it's all true that Seed Bomb is amazing for Water-types and all, I understand. But, Knock Off is better in so many situations, like knocking off items for instance and that it is more powerful than Seed Bomb on neutral hits (even if used twice consecutively where the item is knocked off the first turn). I'd consider putting it above Sucker Punch and slashing that with Low Kick, but Sucker Punch is so important too. Think of it sort of like Bisharp in OU, using both Knock Off / Sucker Punch over Iron Head.
  22. Water Drone

    Water Drone midnight rider
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    But this is uu and shiftry has worse typing, more weaknesses, and less speed than zoroark. If youre not using seed bomb you might as well use zoroark.
  23. radianthero156

    radianthero156
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    in my opinon, seed bomb is important because it does hits super effectively not only the bulky water types like cune/mola but also the ground types like hippo/phan. however, it's not really as important as knock off, which is basically a STAB eq with only 3 resistances that cripples what it cant kill. even then, i'd move low kick to OO. what does low kick hit that seed bomb doesnt? from the top of my head, the only top used mon is hydreigon and maybe mega aggron, while seed bomb hits mola, cune, hippo and the fairies much harder, while doing the same damage to stuff like absol, krow, etc.

    btw, also mention it faces competition from cacturne (stronger and water absorb, though slower and lacks knock off)

    after moving low kick to OO instead of slashing it in, and mentioning cacturne, 1/3
    Timpsu, unfixable and Water Drone like this.
  24. PISTOLERO

    PISTOLERO gone nomad
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    [​IMG] I can outspeed and kill, or Will-O-Wisp the Sucker Punch :) [​IMG]

    [​IMG] Kill Shiftry [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  25. Kushalos

    Kushalos I'll be the beaty queen in tears ;;
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    Add Hydreigon to C&C QC 2/3
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