Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Aerrow, Feb 23, 2010.
Hi. Cool team you've got.
I definitely think you need Stealth Rock somewhere on your team, and Metagross is in the best position to provide it. I suggest replacing Explosion with Stealth Rock. While you no longer have a chance to beat Swampert and Gliscor leads, Stealth Rock is invaluable to most teams now adays. Let's say your opponent switches in 5 times (one for each Pokemon, more likely they'll switch in multiple times). That's 12.5 damage for each Pokemon, which is 62.5% damage right there. Stealth Rock is very important for say Scizor to revenge kill Salamence with Bullet Punch. Assuming Metagross is dead, you may have some trouble defeating a +1 Life Orb Salamence, as even Suicune will likely be OHKOed after Stealth Rock damage.
Hidden Power Electric on Suicune could also be useful instead of Substitute, allowing you to defeat Gyarados and Vaporeon a whole lot quicker, as well as enemy Suicune who may be trying to stall you out. You lack a true Gyarados counter as it is. A +1 Gyarados will do a lot of damage to Suicune, OHKO Magnezone with Earthquake, Dragonite with Stone Edge, and without Thunderbolt Latias will oftentimes be defeated as well. You will probably need to go through multiple Pokemon to defeat Gyarados, when you could only use one with Hidden Power Electric on Suicune.
Only recently, I've figured out that Dragonite needs 204 Speed EVs (4 more than you have) in order to outspeed Choice Scarf Jirachi, Flygon, and Salamence after 2 Dragon Dances. This is incredibly important now more than ever, as the metagame has become extremely Speed oriented. All these Pokemon now run boosting natures alongside the Choice Scarf and as such it be helpful if Dragonite could defeat them, if only after 2 Dances. The 4 EVs can easily be taken from your Attack.
Good luck to you.
your team is very solid
it's just salamence sadly does dragonite's job better
salamence, while not being as bulky as dragonite, is no pushover, he can still take any non-ice hit and set up, while running the same set being slightly stronger and much faster
scarftran may give your team some troubles, but since it's scarf, he's going to have to be switching in and out a lot, running SR will stop him from ruining your team because once suicune is gone, he deals A LOT of damage to your team, especially if he runs HP ice, you can revenge kill it with magnezone if he's locked into HP ice but explosion will leave a dent in magnezone since he doesn't have great defense
other than that, your team seems very capable of dealing with anyone else
i suggest your running SR on your metagross, it does help tremendously, try it over any move on his set but earthquake and see how it works out
Oh, okay; I see what you're saying; yes stealth is important I guess so I'll try it on on this Metagross, but what I really think is that since this team is based only on power and speed, it doesn't need s turn wasted for stealth rock; I think it would rather more enjoy it of the enemy didn't have and entry hazards set up so for the time being, I wont be adding stealth rock to the team..
As for Suicune I guess I can use hidden power [electric] but does it necessarily have to be over substitute? Its a valued move on this set and losing it would result in a major change of the strategy, but I'll try. As for Dragonite, I will invest 4 more effort values into speed; probably out of hp.
Thanks for the rate man, I know it'll come in handy; the changes you've suggested.
Thanks for the Rate!
But as you can see with my response above, I personally think differently then most competitive battlers; stealth rock is not a necessity on every team. Unlike most people I think that if the members of a team can strike fast and true, support from floating rocks or a bunch of spikes scattered around the playing field is not needed.
As for your suggestion for salamence over dragonite, I would normally agree with you knowing salamence totally outclasses dragonite, but its not the case here; here, my friend a more bulkier dragon dancer is needed even if it costs a fair amount of less firepower so that's why I have chosen dragonite; I was thinking just like you before; salamence should be on the team but then I just had to admit that dragonite was a better choice for this position (as shown on the team building process on the first post).
Anyways, thanks for the rate, I know it takes time to help improve a team and I appreciate that. Thank you.
SR benefits everyone
it turns 2HKOs to OHKOs and 3HKOs to 2HKOs and makes the opponent switch to counters less often
it completely controls the metagame
True, as that is you forget one thing; everyone has a unique opinion and view on thing and that view should be respected.
yea i know
but the reasoning behind not using SR wasn't exactly, sound enough
you basically said you're not using SR because you don't want to
i've tried using teams without SR and then switched one move to SR and the amount that SR helped was incredible
Okay, i understand; though now I'll have stealth rock, I want to see how other raters suggest putting stealth rock into this team, okay?
very, very soild team here. my nitpicks:
Drop iron head for Stealth Rocks on metagross. this team is going to force so many swiches, its not even funny.
second nitpick, drop substitute for rest on suicune. i kno that you want to be unique, but suicune is really the glue of this team. you loose her, so many pkmn can sweep you, its not even fair.
well, those are my nitpicks. good luck! (i prefer dragonite over salamence as well ;) )
Responses in Bold/ Italic/ Blue.
And thanks for the suggestions, TheDarkLord!
Hey there, got your VM!
Definitely put Stealth Rock on Metagross. It is absolutely vital to have on a competitive team not only to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs, but also to check threats, especially those weak to SR, such as Gyarados and Salamence, who can sweep you clean if SR isnt up, and in the case of Gyarados, perhaps anyway. I think you can probably drop Explosion for Stealth Rock as Earthquake gives you a nice way to check Calm Mind Jirachi who could pose a large threat if it is running Flash Cannon + Thunderbolt (and even moreso with defensive Evs on Jirachi). I dont see the point of Explosion because your team does not really need to blow up on stuff like Swampert or Hippowdon when they cannot really wall your team anyway, and you can deal with set up Pokemon quite easily through your two Calm Minders and Scizor able to smack around stuff like Curselax with SuperPower, lessening the need for Explosion.
Now, to address your ridiculous LO Gyarados weakness, I agree with Metanite that you should exchange Substitute for Hp Electric. This allows you to stop DD Gyarados very reliably and beat Bulky Water types more easily. Switch to a spread of 56 HP / 252 Special Attack / 200 Speed, still with a Timid Nature and the Leftovers. This puts you ahead of everything that tries to beat Adamant Lucario by one point and gives you very good attacking power, still with a little bulk. This simple change allows you to stop DD Gyarados more reliably.
Now, with Suicune's set changed, you are really in for a rough time against the standard stall team because Suicune is not able to beat Blissey one on one. Latias is of course helpless against Blissey (especially with status moves such as Toxic), so a way to beat down a stall team, in my opinion, is vital. One way I feel your stall problem can be alleviated is by changing your DDNite to a MixNite. MixNite has one thing, really, over Salamence, which is that it is a superior purist stall breaker. SuperPower is really the key to Dragonite's success because it can knock Blissey right out of the park immediately, which opens up for Suicune and Latias nicely. Draco Meteor really bites into whatever it hits that ISNT Blissey, and you even have Magnezone to deal with the Steel types that will try to absorb the attack, making MixNite a great idea in my opinion. Here is the set:
Dragonite @ Life Orb
Rash / Inner Focus
112 Attack / 196 Special Attack / 200 Speed
-Fire Blast / Flamethrower
The Flamethrower vs Fire Blast argument is between accuracy vs power, which I leave up to you! I think both have merit, but in my opinion the increased damage output from Fire Blast is preferable. Roost is really nice on Dragonite because it can stick around against a Stall team and repeatedly wear into them with its attacks. Attack Evs allow you to OHKO Blissey, while speed EVs put you ahead of Jolly TTar, whom you can OHKO. The rest of the EVs power up your Draco Meteor.
Thats all I have, good luck with your team!
Responses will be in blue.
Thanks a ton Friar, that rate/ those suggestions really helped.
I'm not going to repeat what other people have said, but I will point out that Salamence does the DDing so much better than Dragonite (even bulky DD!). Dragonite needs a bait set, a Choice Band set, a support set, or a Mixed set to beat out Salamence for a spot. The mixed set is great but has to be used with a specific purpose, otherwise it just sits there being average. What do you need to break? I love the Choice Band set, just because it breaks everything in the game. The choice is up to you, but for CBNite I like Extremespeed / Outrage / Fire Punch / Superpower or Earthquake with an Adamant or Jolly nature. The power difference is small but often large enough to make it worth having less speed. Max out attack but not speed (figure out what you want to outspeed) and dump the rest into either HP or defenses (watch the SR numbers). For MixNite, I'm a huge fan of Thunderbolt over Roost, but Roost is so much more versatile so I don't know what to say. Good luck!
Okay, thanks man!
Hmn, yes choice band dragonite does seem tempting and does give this team a bit more help on its strategy but I'm leaning towards the mix dragonite set for now but stay assured, you're suggestion did come in handy because I'll be testing the team with a choice banded dragonite instead of a mixed version.
This looks like a well builded team, great job.
Well most suggestions have already been made so there isn't much more for me to say. However there are some suggestions I would like to make. the first one being to change your EV's spread for Suicune. Since you are now using the offensive version an EV spread of 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe would be better suited. There are also other options you could have, Life Orb for example gives you that extra bit of power, while Hydro Pump is a great replacement for Surf especially on a Suicune as offensive as yours. If you do decide to go with Leftovers then a more bulkier version would be preferable. It has an EV's spread of 172 HP / 120 SpA / 216 Spe.
Next, looking at your team I noticed that Latias could be a bit of a problem as even the Specs version can outspeed the majority of your team. Scizor cannot switch-in to safelly because a Specs Draco Meteor is a 2HKO. So here I want to suggest a bulkier EV spread for Scizor allowing it to take hits from Latias with more ease, so you can Pursuit it to death. The Ev spread is 52 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe / 200 SpD. Like I said before it allows Scizor to take more special hits but he still keeps his raw power.
Okay that was all I could help you with.
Hope this helped and good luck with the team!
Responses will be in blue.
Well, I don't want to repeat what anyone else said, so here goes: there's not really any holes in the team, but you should probably change your Latias set to a 3-attack variant. Something like Draco Meteor / Grass Knot / HP Fire / Recover. The reason for this is that your team doesn't really have any Heatran problems since you have Dragonite and Suicune, and you can afford to use this instead of the two-attack variant you were currently using. The two-attack sweeper works well on teams that can handle Blissey, but since your team attempts to break through stall on the physical side, this sweeping Latias just gets walled by Blissey. Since you're going to be walled by Blissey anyways, you might as well use a Latias with better coverage, so as to better handle offensive teams. Also, Grass Knot lets it better serve as a Tyranitar lure, which is important since BabiriTar+Gyarados can defeat this team as it is (BabiriTar weakens Suicune, Gyarados sweeps with Suicune weakened. It's not huge, but it's something to consider).
Yes, I see what you mean. But as you said, the latias does well on teams that can handle blissey; wouldn't scizor be sufficient? Superpower...
what mtr is saying is that the only pokemon blissey really wants to come in on is suicune, and she beats suicune 100% of the time, so blissey will almost always be healthy when latias comes out. the set mtr wants you to use hits for excellent coverage, smashing pretty much everything with draco meteor and everything that can take it with grass knot and hp fire. it will probably do the same amount of damage that cmlatias does, since you've got no way of beating blissey, but it handle offensive teams much better as it can kill stuff straight off the bat. I support this change.
and after you've made it, here's something to consider. hp fire latias can already kill steels, so magnezone's role is not needed so much anymore. however, you are rather easy to set up on with this team. guys like cbscizor, non-lo suicune, -2 dragonite, and -2 latias are very easy to set up on, and scarfzone is not so great at revenge killing. for this reason, I'd like you to try out scarfjirachi. scarfrachi does a good job of revenge killing nearly everything, as it gets great coverage, the ability to flinch stuff, and most importantly, much more speed than magnezone. additionally, you've got 2 draco meteor users throwing dragon attacks around, and you've also got scizor uturning everywhere, so it's likely that by the lategame steels will be sufficiently weakened. this means that it's not too hard for jirachi to come in and just straight up lategame sweep. if you switch latias to the draco meteor variant, you're going to be very easy to set up on in general, as half of this team is either choiced or lowers its attack (counting latias). I think you'll appreciate the extra revenge killing ability. try it out.
Okay, I will.
Hey there! This is a response to your Wall message.
At first glance, this team has great synergy, mostly because of the Dragon/Steel core you've implemented. That's the sign of a very good team. Good job!
However, at second glance, I've realized that there is a certain play style involving a certain Poke that will shut this whole team down: SubPeteya Empoleon-based teams. Empoleon outspeeds all of your Pokemon after an Agility (including Magnezone) and OHKO's five out of six of them after a Torrent + Peteya boost. Your only direct check is Suicune, but since it lacks rest, SubPeteya teams who successfully place down two layers of TSpikes have you checkmated. Latias is somewhat of a check, but note that Surf + Dragon Pulse is resisted. Most Empoleon-based teams carry TTar for Latias as well, so it may not even be a factor. It can set up on Magnezone (especially after it revenges Scizor and whatnot) and Scizor with ease, and somewhat on Metagross, as Earthquake has a minuscule chance of OHKO'ing, meaning you activate its Berry boost with EQ. Empoleon will be troubling.
A moderate threat to the team is Gliscor, especially under Sandstorm conditions. Dancing Tank variants have that famous EdgeQuake combo that kills your Dragons and Steels with ease. Magnezone lacks a way to hit it well, and if it predicts correctly on an Explosion, it only loses 20% damage after Roost. Those who carry EQ/Ice Fang are actually worse, as now they beat Latias 100% of the time AND still OHKO the Dragonite. With Sandstorm, Gliscor can successfully kill Scizor (if it holds Leftovers or anything other than Life Orb), since the most BP does is 52% damage to minimum HP Gliscor (less if it's the true Dancing Tank set). He can then successfully Roost stall you until Bullet Punch misses, and then finish you off. However, Suicune can stop it fairly well, and a combination of Latias' Surf and Scizor's BP will end it. Note that in the former, a Max Attack LO +2 EQ from Gliscor OHKO's you after Rocks (I run this set personally), and for the latter, you lose Latias in the process. Also, thanks to Sand Veil, any Gliscor counter is risky to play if it misses.
Other threats include Swampert, who hits the whole team hard bar Latias without much worry, Rest Suicune after a few initial Calm Minds, and opposing Latias who carry HP Fire.
It's really hard for me to give you a counter, since the Dragon/Steel combo is pretty effective. However, I don't really see an immediate need to revenge trap Scizor and Lucario on this team. Yeah, it's nice to counter-revenge Scizor after he kills off Latias, but what if it decides to U-Turn? Suicune and Metagross eat Bullet Punches for breakfast already. Dragonite resists Bug and Fighting. In the case of Lucario, I don't see a lot of windows of opportunity that it can set up a Swords Dance on. Metagross OHKO's with EQ while only taking a max of 65% from a non-boosted CC. Latias can take of 3/4 of its health with Surf + LO damage, and it outspeeds. Scizor then can revenge it with BP. So, with that in mind, why exactly is it necessary to have Magnezone on the team? It's niche is nice, but uneccesary. Plus, it's always Scarved, which gives those with high Special Defense an easy way to switch in and attack or boost (opposing Latias especially). This is why I believe you need an alternative to Magnezone, one who can stop Scizor and Lucario (albeit without trapping them) and take care of a lot of other threats:
Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat/HP Ground
It's the standard ScarfRotom-H, except I'm recommending Timid over Modest. Normally, this is not the brightest move, since Rotom likes the 10% Nature boost from Modest. However, you now outspeed all Empoleon at +2 and can OHKO them with TBolt. If you want to always outspeed it, but feel it has too much (uneccessary Speed), then consider the spread of 46 HP/252 SpA/210 Spe. You outspeed the +2 standard SubPeteya Empoleon by one point exactly, and add on some more bulk. Rotom also adds a third EQ immunity, which helps Metagross, Scizor, and even Suicune to an extent. It is also unaffected by Spikes, which helps. ScarfRotom also checks Scizor and Lucario too, with Overheat. Trick is used to stop walls like Suicune from setting up and such, which is the biggest sell over normal Scarf users. Shadow Ball gives it a second Attack option for STAB. Overheat nails Steels, of course. The only problem with me suggesting this is that this team now becomes a little bit Pursuit weak, having both Scarf Rotom and Latias. However, the two common Pursuit users in the game are Scizor and TTar. Scizor can be beaten by Suicune, Metagross, Rotom (revenging, of course), and MixNite. TTar's defeated by Scizor, MixNite, and Metagross. Your team already handles these two quite well.
Hope this rate helped, and good luck with the team, my friend!
I understand all the weaknesses my team has that you mentioned but you overlooked one small thing; this team is for wifi use. Rotom wont be particularly effective there since its unable to change forms forms on wifi; maybe another suggestion?
Eh...whoops! See what happens when I get caught up in counters? Sorry about that. XD Let me see...
Well, there is a better alternative to Rotom-H itself when it comes to Empoleon directly. However, it can't exactly retaliate against Lucario automatically unless it carries HP Fire. Try this:
Starmie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
Essentially, this can do a mix of Rotom's and Magnezone's job. A Modest Nature plus Hydro Pump makes Scizor and TTar cautious about switching in, as Hydro Pump OHKO's TTar while Scizor is 2HKO'd and Starmie resists BP. Ice Beam revenges +1 Salamence, who could pose some problems with the team, and ScarfGon. TBolt revenges Gyarados and, more importantly, outspeeds and OHKO's Empoleon. You lose the Ground immunity that Rotom gives you, but gain more Speed, Attack, and Moveset. It's not ridiculously different than Rotom-H's job, and it's still weak to Pursuit, so it's a decent alternative. The lack of a Fire move may be off-putting, but Hydro Pump has enough power to make up for that.
Hmn, what would you say to replacing it to a ScargGon instead? With earthquake, fireblast and all, it keeps the immunities of rotom and still does a job of revenge killing. With stone edge and outrage as a final move nothing much can resist its array of moves. What do you think?
it should be noted that your current latias set can beat agility empoleon one on one by cming to +6 before attacking empoleon into petaya range, and if you change to draco meteor latias and scarfjirachi, you can revenge kill empoleon 100% of the time. it's not an issue.