The idea that they are not two completely separate ladders, but two modes of play on the same ladder, with people having the option to search for any match whether rated or not (as well as such for specifically rated or specifically unrated), would go some way towards mitigating this problem. That idea would, however, require changes to Shoddy 2 itself - I don't know if it's been feature frozen already.
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Should alts be banned on Shoddy 2?
- Thread starter cantab
- Start date
I don't want alts for one very specific reason: I want to tie forum accounts and Shoddy accounts together. In other words, your ladder ranking would be associated with your forum account and perhaps even show on your profile or something. This implies that no alts are allowed on the ladder, as no alts are allowed on the forum.
With such a system, you can still change names and be anon on the Shoddy server; your ladder ranking isn't tied to your name, but your forum account.
With such a system, you can still change names and be anon on the Shoddy server; your ladder ranking isn't tied to your name, but your forum account.
Actually the current problem is having too low of a deviation, not too high. :) And this won't be solved entirely by GLIXARE either... it will be solved in another (very simple) way that I have already discussed with Colin.
Because Pokemon is a game of imperfect information. Knowing what chess openings a particular player likes to use doesn't really give you new information, because there is no simultaneous execution of moves, and there are no hidden pieces. In Pokemon, you make moves without knowing what your opponent has or is doing.
If that's the only concern, why not allow people to have one ranking on SB2, but allow that ranking to be transferred to different alts on the server? That way someone can test on alts and whatnot, but still have them all tied to the same Smogon forum username. I'm thinking of a system where you can log onto SB2 under your Smogon forum name, but then within that sign into different names to actually be seen as by others. This solves all problems, including making sure that bans are not so easily avoided; a mod would simply ban the "forum username" and therefore ban all associated accounts on SB2.
Then again, I am programming-retarded, so I don't know how hard this would be to implement and whatnot.
Yeah, I saw that, but I wasn't really sure what to think, cause it sounded like it directly contradicted the first part of his post. Particularly, this part:
If my suggestion was already being considered, then great! I would really love to see something like that be implemented.
So long as there is an unrated match finder (for each metagame), you change your name, and preferably the ability to reset your rank is implemented.. I can see little good objection to this and much to gain.
As stated by chaos he best solution is clearly to have the Shoddy battle username tied to your forum account name.
(i.e I have Alt A that laddered to 1660 CRE, but on the leaderboard is shows up as "Yondie".) I am not a programmer and am unaware of whether or not this function will be possible, but its just an idea.
Not only this, but then you can ladder as an alt. Perhaps though the CRE and your ranking on the leaderboard will show up on as your forum account.
(i.e I have Alt A that laddered to 1660 CRE, but on the leaderboard is shows up as "Yondie".) I am not a programmer and am unaware of whether or not this function will be possible, but its just an idea.
I guess I'm alone in my opinion on this, but I don't think a player can be rated across multiple teams. Since, in other rated games (chess), they have the same pieces every match, when in Pokemon, you can change them. I feel player - team combinations should be ranked rather than players for that reason.
It's also harder to drastically raise or lower your ranking once it gets set. If that was possible I wouldn't mind this no alt stuff so much.
It's also harder to drastically raise or lower your ranking once it gets set. If that was possible I wouldn't mind this no alt stuff so much.
That is a good point. But on the other hand, if you are going to rate player - team combos, do you reset someone's rating every time they change their team? Or do you try to define a boundary between 'minor changes' and 'major changes'? How exactly do you do it? Does one player get to maintain multiple ratings, or do you simply give the deviation a shove up whenever there's a team change? Would it be practical for the server to track teams (perhaps a hash would work)?
Also, teambuilding is as much a skill as battling - in fact arguably teambuilding is more important. A player must be skilled at both to rate highly. It's true that I can't think of any other game involving teambuilding where these rating systems are used.
As for your second point - X-Act mentioned there's going to be a solution to the problem of too-low deviations (which result in a 'stuck' rating).
There are other issues with rating systems and their application to Pokemon. Notably, to my knowledge most rating systems assume transitivity - if player A is better than player B, and B better than C, then A is better than C. But in Pokemon that's clearly not the case, due to the teambuilding aspect coupled with the rock-paper-scissors nature of the type chart.
Also, teambuilding is as much a skill as battling - in fact arguably teambuilding is more important. A player must be skilled at both to rate highly. It's true that I can't think of any other game involving teambuilding where these rating systems are used.
As for your second point - X-Act mentioned there's going to be a solution to the problem of too-low deviations (which result in a 'stuck' rating).
There are other issues with rating systems and their application to Pokemon. Notably, to my knowledge most rating systems assume transitivity - if player A is better than player B, and B better than C, then A is better than C. But in Pokemon that's clearly not the case, due to the teambuilding aspect coupled with the rock-paper-scissors nature of the type chart.
Um, a simple idea I've seen done before is to allow one "master" account, that holds all the stats etcetera, and can have any number of subordinate accounts (names and nothing else). The account options would allow the player to have their "true" name be revealed if they wished, or have it hidden for the sake of anonymity.
That said, everything else in this thread seems good, especially the unrated automatcher.
That said, everything else in this thread seems good, especially the unrated automatcher.
Simple: Let the player control when their rating begins tracking their team at will. Basically, the current system.
If you are stating that we should have 2 ladders, one for complete testing and the other for ranking, this is exactly what I was thinking as well.
Alt accounts do mess up the rankings a bit. A simple solution is to have a ranked and Non-ranked Section. In these 2 sections, you can further divide into Uber, Ou, and UU, and if implemented, Nu. The non-ranked ladder should be matched up by random choosing, and the ranked ladder should be matched by a comparison of ranking between players. By doing this, you can have a standard competitive scene while having a whole other section that can be used diligently for testing properly. Also, it does not interfere with the rankings on shoddy what-so-ever.
The whole problem with all of this is that the amount your ranking increases / decreases by is determined by your OPPONENT'S rating, which means that whenever I face someone good on a fresh alt on the ladder, I win jack shit when I do win and lose a ton of points when I lose.
A "Reset Ladder Rating" system wouldn't help either. Now I'd be able to know if I'm playing someone really good, but their ladder rating will still be in the shitter, and then we're back in the same boat.
I think that the alt problem is just part of a larger problem: namely, the fact that often a player's ladder ranking and their skill don't even come close to corresponding, so it's easy to abuse it and reset your rating by making an alt, which utterly fucks most everyone else around. While I believe that alt accounts should be banned, they're only one part of the real problem, which is a system that results in flawed and inaccurate rankings and that rewards alt use.
Glicko-based rating systems only work when the ratings that are given to players are actually accurate. Allowing players to reset those ratings through a "reset ratings" button or the use of alts ruins this, as you get a ton of skilled players with extremely low rankings fucking up the system. Either alts need to be banned AND rating resets need to be disallowed, or the ranking system needs to be revamped to take into account the fact that there is a high likelihood that there is absolutely no correlation between player ranking and player skill.
A "Reset Ladder Rating" system wouldn't help either. Now I'd be able to know if I'm playing someone really good, but their ladder rating will still be in the shitter, and then we're back in the same boat.
I think that the alt problem is just part of a larger problem: namely, the fact that often a player's ladder ranking and their skill don't even come close to corresponding, so it's easy to abuse it and reset your rating by making an alt, which utterly fucks most everyone else around. While I believe that alt accounts should be banned, they're only one part of the real problem, which is a system that results in flawed and inaccurate rankings and that rewards alt use.
Glicko-based rating systems only work when the ratings that are given to players are actually accurate. Allowing players to reset those ratings through a "reset ratings" button or the use of alts ruins this, as you get a ton of skilled players with extremely low rankings fucking up the system. Either alts need to be banned AND rating resets need to be disallowed, or the ranking system needs to be revamped to take into account the fact that there is a high likelihood that there is absolutely no correlation between player ranking and player skill.
This sums it up. I think accounts should be tied to forum name, alts should be banned (but an anonymous test option should be available - automatched, but unrated) and resets should definitely not be allowed, imo.
I think they should be.
If you go to use alts over wi-fi, they go back to normal. So make it different here?
If you go to use alts over wi-fi, they go back to normal. So make it different here?
WiFi's a very different situation. For a start, there's no rating system, no laddering, and no automatching. Only a win/loss record maintained on each person's cartridge. And while it's simple to get a new Friend Code, I believe the only ways to reset your win/loss statistic are to start a new game, or use a cheating device, and unless you create a new forum account too (which is banned) people battling are still going to know who you are, even if you do change your FC and reset your own record.
I agree with this and consequently with what SDS said. An unrated, matchmaking system would be greatly appreciated for testing out new teams without running the risk of a mistake in the team builder costing you your rating. It's also frustrating when the game matches you with someone that has a CRE of 400 or so less than you. That means that they risk nothing by battling you, whereas you risk a lot by battling them. It shouldn't allow such match-ups to exist.Felix91 said: