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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Matthew, Nov 4, 2012.
Oh, there already is one. Thanks and nvm, I didn't know they already had one.
I haven't been in the game since around Platinum, but I've noticed a dramatic increase in the number of Substitute sets listed on the Smogon Dex.
What's made Substitute so ubiqitous?
Well, substitute has always been an extremely good move and it's only gotten better. With B/W adding some pokes with good enough STAB coverage to forgo that extra coverage move, substitute becomes an extremely appealing option--it makes prediction a sure thing, prevents revenge-killing, and blocks status. 5th Gen has also introduced some pokemon with phenomenal coverage such as hydreigon, who can hit everything in the metagame neutrally with just dpulse and focus blast, for example. CM and BU sweepers really like sub too, since it blocks status and, once a few defense boosts have been gotten, can easily stand up to weaker attacks. Some examples of this are subCM rachi, latias, and the new keldeo. Finally, some pokes, such as kyurem and kyurem-b, have poor speed but excellent offenses and defenses, making a sub+roost set extremely effective.
How much power does running rock slide over stone edge on Terrakion lose me? I hate inaccurate moves (flamethrower > fire blast etc.) I'm running a babiri berry double boosting set and I need to know if there are any crucial KOs I miss.
Once you have a dance up I don't think you miss out on many threats
Stone Edge Terrakion hits harder, by far. I wont go into calcs, but Rock Slide isn't worth it, especially considering that it still can miss (95% accurate). Also, run Rock Gem over Babiri Berry; the power is so worth it on Stone Edge (run it) and most Prio nowadays is Mach Punch from Loom.
Here's some calcs
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 159-187 (44.91 - 52.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 211-249 (59.6 - 70.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 166-196 (42.23 - 49.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 220-261 (55.97 - 66.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 267-315 (73.35 - 86.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 355-418 (97.52 - 114.83%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)
alright , I'm probably going to switch to chople berry (Breloom's been very prevalent in my laddering so far) and make the switch to stone edge. The fact I don't have to use as many means the accuracy sort of evens out too, thanks!
You should also take note on chance of flinching + the chance of missing stone edge into hose calcs. Also, does your team lay hazards well? Do you have an effective spin blocker? Take all of this in before making the switch
I run subsplit Gengar and lay hazards with Deoxys-D. For this reason I think I could get away with rock slide especially since I run fighting gem breloom and LO sharpedo to to knock of any 10-20% left on pokemon with priority. I actually just realized that rock slide isn't 100% accurate so it doesn't really solve the problem. I'll test them both and get comfortable.
if revenge by priority is an issue, use a subsd set (salac ftw). the coverage of x scissor isn't a very significant loss compared to running substitute, and the +1 speed boost cuts the number of scarfers that can beat you dramatically
Is there an item that boosts attack in a pinch instead of speed like salacious does actually? I ran double dance but can drop swords dance for substitute. Outspeeding rp genesect and Landorus, agility thundurus and of course the terror that is venusaur is more important to me than a +2 in attack because I run terrakion on a deoxys-D hyper offence team. So like a reverse SubSD set, Is there a berry for that?
Is there basically any reason to run a Swords Dance Lucario build anymore now Terrakion exists?
having extremespeed is a pretty nice reason, and you have bullet punch too if you just CAN'T GET ENOUGH PRIO. terrak would need to run SD+quick attack to even begin to approach luke's priority movepool. having a steel typing can be nice too i guess.
that being said, luke is not an especially distinguishing SDer right now, i don't really feel like there's a huge reason to use it in this meta
Lucario does not have the priority to get past the might Genesect while Terrakion can get by Genesect (except Giga drain and iron head variants) nicely. Lucario's Extremespeed also makes sure it can not be stopped be Techniloom even while at a low range of health +2 vs +1 priority. SD lucario's advantge was getting past scarfers that Terrakion could not, but now gene is the premeir acRfer. I really think in the non-Genesect metagame, Lucario will find room to succeed.
I think it could be interesting to run on Lucario SD both E-S and Bullet. Apart of Terrakion, Bullet is also useful against Gengar and Kyu-B
Bulky Psychics and Ghosts are pretty rare right now, except Deoxys-D and Latias to miss too much Crunch.
Crunch is pretty much expendable, but we don't have to forget that we forgo Ice Punch; that's one of the distinctive feature from Terrakion, allows us to kill Gliscor, Dragonite and bulky Landorus-T comfortably.
Ice Punch is definitely an important move cause the aforementioned Pokes can stop Lucario dead on his track. However if you have a way to deal with them a double prio SD Lucario maybe could be used for late game sweeping. This also brings up the question would such a set still need max speed or could it be built more bulky?
Lucario still needs the speed so it can use Close Combat freely. Timid Heatran is only one speed point below Adamant Lucario, so you'll need max speed to CC it.
I only thought about Gliscor when thinking to mention Ice Punch and I thought that would be a waste running a move only for one mon, I forgot the others'. Anyways Dragonite is more or less manageable because E-S Life Orb +2 Adamant deals 71%-84% and Lucario SD is more useful in the lategame.
It is possible to use Scarf Gothitelle with HP Ice to kill these threats.
It is important to stand out the fact that Lucario with Ice Punch needs to be Jolly in order to outspeed 252 Speed Adamant Gliscor, Adamant Landorus-T and Jolly Dragonite. However Gliscor with more than 72 Ev's in Spd is fairly rare. Only around 6,5% of Gliscors were in last October. In case of Landorus-T, around 45%
Like a lot of sets, depends on the team running a move in the 4th slot instead of other.
About making Lucario bulky, it's a waste. Always 252/252 4 Ev maybe in HP, and 30 Iv in Defense if Genesect +1 in Attack is wanted.
Maybe when running Jolly Lucario, a speed of 296/301 to outspeed neutral Hydreigon and Jirachi, but there are few Ev's to take off that it would be irrelevant and better having it to avoid a rare Speed tie with another Jolly Lucario.
About Adamant/Jolly without Ice Punch, important mons are Haxorus, Rotom-W, Hydreigon and Mamoswine.
Haxorus and Hydreigon are impossible to outspeed without Jolly, and Hydreigon is 30% Timid and 10% Hasty while Haxorus is 65% Adamant.
With Bullet, outspeeding Mamoswine is irrelevant.
Rotom-W is 20% Timid and Mamoswine is Timid 26%
So, apparently, Adamant will be better the majority of time since most of the things will be faster or slower anyways and faster mons are rare.
How does getting a warning from a Moderator work?
Absolute scrub here. First time posting and I've been trolling around the battle pokedex and looking up different strategies and things like that
--- Is there any detailed noobie threads that are a must read?
--- are themed teams (weather) better than others?
--- how do I build a team? That sounds dumb. It what do I look for when building teams?
--- is there a strongest pair or trio of monsters that are just a must to have or must to defend against?
Thanks for answering the new questions. I play mostly league of legends are focusing on that but want to look at doing something on the off time
oooh we should put the answers to this question in a sticky somewhere, i doubt you're the only person who's new to smogon and wondering about em. in fact one answer is probably not enough for your question, so don't just take my word for it
1. must read threads are basically restricted to any stickies about rules, and simple question simple answer threads. the fact that you're posting this in the SQSA thread is a good sign so you prob need no help on this front. it's fun to look through big threads (eg the OU cores discussion, metagame megathread) but these threads are LONG and open-ended so they tend to lack the focused and concise stuff that a new player is looking for. i have read the entire metagame megathread first page to last, and it's pretty boring
2. i think "theme" is the wrong way to say it. every team needs some kind of focus or plan (at the very least, you need to have a way to assemble such a plan when you get into a battle). the idea that weather is "themed" where as weatherless is not is kinda flawed. this is a hard question to answer. weather is powerful but i doubt people would agree with me if i went so far as to say weather > weatherless. play what fits
3. a team needs a good gameplan and that's about it. there are really no elements that appear on every good team (nope, not even genesect, although it's damn close x_x) so it's hard to answer this kind of question. offense should generally focus on using sweepers that beat each other's counters; stall should focus on things that cover each other's weaknesses. typically you need at least one resist to each of the major common attacking types: dragon, water (often 2), fire, fighting, ground... uh those are the big ones imo
4. there are a lot of threats these days, ideally you should have some kind of plan for all of them. however i would consider the following as things you need to have a HARD stop for:
tornadus-T + dugtrio
genesect (+ dugtrio)
dragspam (ie 3+ offensive dragons)
venusaur in sun (bonus points if you can check it even when it's at +2)
standard rainstall cores (toed+ferrocruel+jirachi/chansey seems to be the thing these days)
Just listening to you sounds like genosect and dug trio are incredibly powerful. Last time I set up my team was bw1 and focused on sand (tyranitar+excadrill, rock legendary from bw, name escapes me).
How do you build teams? Last time I was building I took one or two monsters and built what I thought would support them based on what the battle pokedex said