Simple Questions, Simple Answers: OM Edition

Cresselia92

formerly Darklatias92
#76
sorry if this comes across as rude, but how can you justify enforcing donor reveal in inheritance because it makes it too hard to work out what the set is, when so many other oms suffer the same flaw? bh is obv the main offender in this regard, but also sketchmons and aaa to a somewhat lesser extent. none of these have anything like donor reveal: why should inheritance be an exception?
I'm no TI or scpinion, but I want to throw my two cents on the matter. Let's talk first about the other three metagames you have mentioned.

Sketchmon. A creative metagame where your Pokémon can dedicate a moveslot to any move it desires: recovery, status, support, boosting, stronger attack, coverage, lure or something completely surprising. However, you and your opponent both have access to only six surprise factors in the team, while 3/4 of the movesets of your Pokémon is largely known territory. You may be facing a Roost Z-Flyinium Landorus-T, but once revealed that you can work around this threat relatively easily, since you know more or less what to expect from its other moves: Earthquake (almost guaranteed), U-turn, Knock Off, Stone Edge and similar known attacks. It's definitely easier to prepare from threats in this metagame, while still having enough freedom to pull random aces out of your pockets.

Almost Any Ability. Replace that yucky Ability with another one and change the moveset to better make use of the new Ability. This may be quite random, since there is an enormous amount of Abilities to choose from, but at the end of the day your Pokémon are still restricted to their available moves. Also, naturally defensive Pokémon tend to prefer defensive Abilities, like something that heals HP or that neutralize a weakness, while offensive Pokémon tend to run more offensive variants, like Abilities to deal more damage or to bypass your opponents' Abilities. Sure, you may deviate from that and have more unique Abilities, but at least you can better predict some of the potential sets.

Balanced Hackmon. This is essentially Run Anything You Want: The Metagame. It's a metagame where you can essentially run anything you wish without restrictions. However, to me this is a metagame that can't really be compared to other metagames, since its lore is an extremely difficult concept to master and learn. Like, having absolutely no idea of what your opponent can do to mess up with you is… well, a game of chances. This would be almost like playing chess with a blindfold, where you hope to pull off the correct move and to not be demolished by one of your opponent's strategies. However, only because one metagame is essentially built on this random premise, it doesn't mean that all metagames should be allowed to have this same random premise.

The issue with Inheritance is that there is way too much guesswork, even with the restriction of having only legal sets. Basically, you would be completely in the dark against all six of your opponent's Pokémon, turning every match in a dice roll where you hope to not be messed up by some random set from a random Pokémon and hope that your random strategy will be as effective in practice as it is on paper. This is not very friendly toward newer players, who will essentially need to keep track of every change and popular set by playing an infinite amount of games, and essentially turns it into "BH with legal sets".

This is a quite taxing chore for many new people, and it's why I appreciated the donor reveal. With that, I had a better idea of what I was facing, and I could work around that threat better by choosing the best Pokémon to check the potential set of the opposing Pokémon. Without that info, I would have scrambled to find something to stop that threat and thrown a few Pokémon in an attempt to scout the opposition. However, would have that be enough? Of course not, I would have needed to do the same with the other five teammates, meaning that keeping my team healthy enough to reveal all the opponent's cards is imperative. Oh, and this all happens while trying to keep my own cards hidden, too.

You all keep comparing Inheritance to those "creative" metagames, but it isn't the only metagame with an indicator. The popular Mix and Mega metagame has an indicator too, which helps a lot during a match, since you have a clearer idea of what you are dealing with. If it wasn't visible, I bet it would be a huge mess for the same "rabbit in the hat principle" and surely not be as popular as it is.

You must not preserve a metagame in a way only because a minority of capable players have learned the ropes. You should instead be trying to have a metagame so that anyone can get into it and play it relatively easily, whether it is a new player or a veteran. And, honestly speaking, Inheritance throws off quite a few new people.
 
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scpinion

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#77
Please, send us and your peers a private message for something related to Inheritance from now on. This is not the purpose of this thread and this back and forth with lengthy answers is detracting from its original purpose.

MAMP, we explained it in the thread. Inheritance without the reveal mechanic was not unique enough for us to approve. Using TI's list above (note that list isn't necessarily everything we consider, just a good starting point for the concept), it didn't meet our criteria based on the second point.
We should find the concept potentially appealing to a large enough audience, different from existing concepts such that it doesn't infringe upon them, and good enough to justify existing in Other Metagames.
"Infringe" isn't really the best term in this scenario because of bh's popularity, but inh is too similar without the reveal mechanic to justify its own thread. I'll happily expound upon this in a private conversation or on ps sometime if you want.
 
#78
Leading this away from inheritance because this is important elsewhere: is there a way by which we can ask if a metagame is too similar or just bad without wasting anyone's time, or is submitting it and getting feedback on it there the best method?
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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Other Metas Leader
#79
Leading this away from inheritance because this is important elsewhere: is there a way by which we can ask if a metagame is too similar or just bad without wasting anyone's time, or is submitting it and getting feedback on it there the best method?
You can pm us on PS/Discord with your basic premise and see how we feel. But, it's not going to be as good as going through Submissions. We'll get a better picture of the meta with the detailed submission. We'll also get the views of our Submissions team.

Presentation is a factor that may sway our decision. There have been concepts in the past that we didn't like and rejected but then someone else made an impressive submission that convinced us.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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Other Metas Leader
#81
Just wondering, but why was 2v2 doubles removed from showdown?
It was not a successful OM. I added it on Showdown based on my own whim, it didn't earn a spot. And then once it had an opportunity, it still didn't prosper. The thread on here was a complete failure, and it doesn't even have a thread this gen. Basic requirement for an OM is to exist on these forums. After that it should be a successful thread and win OMotM. If it accomplishes all that, then it can be considered for Showdown.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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#83
What's with Sketchmons of all things being a permaladder?
You can search here for the discussion. Summary is: three ladders were removed, Inverse/Tier Shift/STABmons, because they had very low ladder activity. Sketchmons was chosen because it was a very successful OMotM, had a successful thread, and because of the concept itself being something that was fine to represent OMs as a ladder.
 
#84
You can search here for the discussion. Summary is: three ladders were removed, Inverse/Tier Shift/STABmons, because they had very low ladder activity. Sketchmons was chosen because it was a very successful OMotM, had a successful thread, and because of the concept itself being something that was fine to represent OMs as a ladder.
Funny how that works, it suffering from the very same fate it was put in to stop. Ah well, thanks for the answer.
 
#85
Um, sorry to double-post, but I accidentally posted a thread in OM Submissions before it was... remotely complete or had any info in it (it's clearly marked as something among the lines of "this was a mistake" now). Does this use up my monthly submission?

Also, what's the exact terms for the monthly submission? Is it one every month, or do you have to wait a month's time?
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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Other Metas Leader
#86
Um, sorry to double-post, but I accidentally posted a thread in OM Submissions before it was... remotely complete or had any info in it (it's clearly marked as something among the lines of "this was a mistake" now). Does this use up my monthly submission?

Also, what's the exact terms for the monthly submission? Is it one every month, or do you have to wait a month's time?
No, it's fine.

One every month. It's just easier to manage that way rather than keeping track of when every user made a submission.
 
#89
Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but in Mix and Mega, how are in-battle form changes affected by the stones?
If you mean like Greninja after it has turned into Ash-Greninja via Battle Bond or Meloetta after it has turned into Meloetta-P via Relic Song, they default back to the base forme before the mega stone changes are applied. This wasn't the intended mechanic iirc, but it's how it works due to the structure of the code.
 
#90
Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but in Mix and Mega, how are in-battle form changes affected by the stones?
All in battle form changes bar Shaymin-S are reset to the base form. It was originally intended that the current form be used, but it was rejected as too hard to code. This means that if, say, ash-greninja were to mega evolve, it would be as though regular Greninja did so.

E: Ninja'd by It11
 
#91
Just wondering, but why isn't there a 350 Cup ladder on Showdown but there is for Pokébilities?

Edit: Oh ok, but didn't LCotM have a ladder before? I'm also wondering what happened to that.
 
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The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Programmeris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
#92
Just wondering, but why isn't there a 350 Cup ladder on Showdown but there is for Pokébilities?
Pokébilities is the OM of the Month, an OM voted by the community to receive a ladder for a month. 350 Cup is the Leader's Choice, an OM that the leaders choose based on forum activity. It's wasn't popular enough to win OM of the Month and receive a ladder, but it is successful enough to be given a challenge-only format for the month. It's also included in our Daily Tournaments!

Edit: It did have a ladder last generation, but we decided not to keep it as a ladder as there are plenty of available ladders and we didn't want to take the focus away from them.
 
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#93
What should someone do if someone has an idea for an OM that they think is codable but they aren't entirely sure?
edit: Slightly unrelated, but if I asked a question but never got an answer, would it be alright to ask it again?
 
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#95
edit: Slightly unrelated, but if I asked a question but never got an answer, would it be alright to ask it again?
If it hasn't been answered in quite a while, I think it'd be OK to re-post your question so that it can get attention/answered.

Anyways, anyone know how long permanent ladders last, because I've seem some change before so they aren't always permanent? Is it yearly, or every new gen or what?
 
#96
If a metagame existed in gen 6 and has not yet been submitted, could someone else submit that metagame for gen 7, provided that its not on the comonly rejected ideas list?
 

Uselesscrab

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#97
Anyways, anyone know how long permanent ladders last, because I've seem some change before so they aren't always permanent? Is it yearly, or every new gen or what?
This is basically whatever the leaders feel like doing. We were originally going to have a rotation but it fell by the wayside. Personally, I think it may (or at least should) come back when Tier Shift is implemented.

If a metagame existed in gen 6 and has not yet been submitted, could someone else submit that metagame for gen 7, provided that its not on the comonly rejected ideas list?
If you get permission from the original host, yes.
 
#98
All in battle form changes bar Shaymin-S are reset to the base form. It was originally intended that the current form be used, but it was rejected as too hard to code. This means that if, say, ash-greninja were to mega evolve, it would be as though regular Greninja did so.

E: Ninja'd by It11
Would this also theoretically be the case for Zygarde-C, i.e. would a Zygarde-C with a mega stone (if that were allowed) revert back to regular Zygarde before adding the mega stone stat changes? If that is the case, would it be an option to allow Zygarde-C to use mega stones, since in some sense it is just a regular Zygarde with a mega stone?
 
#99
Question: Why since a couple of months the "leader's choice" meta of the month is not playable like the other ladder metas? I remember perfectly that in october/november it was like this. What's the point of a monthly meta if it's playable only by direct challenge?
 
Question: Why since a couple of months the "leader's choice" meta of the month is not playable like the other ladder metas? I remember perfectly that in october/november it was like this. What's the point of a monthly meta if it's playable only by direct challenge?
Iirc, the reason why it was removed was so that the LCotM wouldn't take away plays from the OMotM. It's been like this for the new gen. Might not be what everyone wants, but you can still challenge people and LCotM can be made into tournaments, which are always fun.