Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings

[Omastar68]

I feel like Regirock oughta be ranked, maybe C+. It's an amazing AV user, w/ 80/200/100 defenses and Drain Punch. Also, I recall it being mentioned in the Victim of the Week thread, and stuff that doesn't warrant at least a D rank isn't supposed to be nominated there, since it's supposed to be stuff that's usable. I.e., you wouldn't not Magcargo if the VOTW was Talonflame, even though Magcargo craps on Talon, because Magcargo just isn't viable in BSS. I guess by that token we should also discuss Granbull, which Pyrite named as an answer to something(forget what, but I remember Granbull cause I liked the set.)

This is a small thing, but I'd like to nominate Noivern for B-. Noivern has great speed, which lets it pick off a lot of things, which pairs nicely w/ Choice Specs and Switcheroo. Its SpA isn't the best, but it's still pretty good, especially since Noivern has high power moves and can function welol holding either a LO or Choice Specs, both of which make it much more powerful. Noivern also gets Super Fang, so if you can't OHKO or 2HKO w/ an attack, you can still halve the opponents health. 85/80/80 bulk isn't terribly impressive, but it's still fairly decent, and gives Noivern a decent chance to survive powerful neutral attack like 244+Atk Talon's BB. Noivern's typing is also really great. It has a bunch of resistances(for instance, it resists Blaziken's STABS, though it unfortunately cannot switch in on Blaziken), and an immunity to ground. Infiltrator is a pretty nice ability to(though most people use Frisk, which doesn't really make sense to me.) It lets Noivern beat Gliscor most of the time, as it's immune to EQ, while also letting it hit other potential subbers like Mega Gengar. STAB Air Slash, while better on Togekiss, is still really good. Heracross is plainly KOd, as is Serperior. Draco Meteor beats all those nasty Dragons running around, provided they're not sashed, your SpA isn't dropped, and you hit(though 90 accuracy isn't too bad.) It's also pretty potent against anything not resistant or immune to dragon if Noivern's SpA isn't lowered, and it's worth noting that LO Noivern's DM is quite a bit stronger than Megamence's DM, and way stronger than Chomp's.

There's no shortage of 4x ice weak Pokes, so Nouver can be hard to fit on a team. That said, it has a lot over each of the popular dragons in the meta, for instance:

Garchomp has significantly fewer resistances, and no more immunities. It's SpA is pretty crumby if it doesn't mega evolve(does it ever?), and most walls(and other things besides,) are geared towards physical defense. It's coverage is worse, and it's quite a bit slower, and doesn't get Switcheroo/Trick or Super Fang.

Megamence is hardly a fair comparison cause it's a mega, but it does have some problems Noivern doesn't. For one, it's base 120 speed to Noivern's 123(which outspeeds Greninja, a fairly common Poke that can KO Dragons.) It also is a bit weaker in terms of special attacking power, since it's 120 base SpA only comes w/ the Mega stone, and cannot be boosted further, while Noivern sits at base 97but can have a boosting item. Mence also can only hit through subs w/ Hyper Voice, while Noivern running Infiltrator hit through subs w/ anything.

Dragonite is hopeless as a special attacker(and not terribly good as a mixed attacker,) and is again much slower. It can remedy this w/ DD, but setting up is not always easy. It has priority over Noivern, but it can't cripple a wall w/ Switcheroo and a Choice Scarf/Specs, or hit through subs. It's also crippled by burn(though that applies to most of the dragons)a status Noivern likes simply because it'll make it safe from sleep, paralysis, and poison. SwagPlay is also a thing, and Noivern is the only one of these dragons to have more Def than Atk.

Hydreigon is probably the best dragon to compare to Noivern. Noivern has better speed, STAB Air Slash instead of STAB Dark Pulse(higher chance to flinch and better coverage-I think.) Hydra's got more power and bulk, w/ pretty much all the same good coverage moves, but lacks Super Fang, Switcheroo, and Inflitrator(Levitate is ofc a good ability, but Noiv's ground immune too.) I'd say they're about tied in terms of defensive typing, and Nouvern fits much better on rain teams thx to STAB Hurricane. Probably better on sun teams too for what it's worth, cause it gets Sloarbeam.

Noivern isn't the best dragon, really, but the specific things it can do that other Pokemon can't do make me think it should be higher than a C+. Here are some calcs w/ the EV spread I use(which is better than just dumping 252 in SpA and Spe:)

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 140-166 (77.3 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Little prior damage necessary to KO, and Kang will kill itself w/ DE recoil after a Focus Blast(trading 1 for 1 ain't bad, especially if it's their mega.) Also a decent chance(31.3) to OHKO after SR damage, though that's not very important. The biggest problem here is FB's 70 accuracy, but you can use DM at the cost of some power.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 112-133 (68.2 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 121-142 (88.9 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Decent chance to take Gengar, though it isn't very likely. Mega outspeeds, and will probably win, but if it's not mega yet you can AS and hope for a flinch so you can KO the next turn.

244+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 28 HP / 20 Def Noivern: 144-169 (87.8 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 153-181 (96.2 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

CB set from the strat Dex I typically use for calcs. DM OHKOs after BB recoil, you just have to avoid the KO(quite likely), and hit w/ DM(not too unreasonable either.)

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 159-190 (102.5 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Blaziken is beaten if it doesn't have HP Ice or Stone Edge(Rock Slide is too weak,) but HJK is unfortunately a 2HKO, and even if it has none of the aforementioned moves, Flare Blitz is a likely 2HKO. This means you can never switch in :(

252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 28 HP / 20 Def Noivern: 120-142 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 79-95 (47.8 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

I'm actually a bit surprised at the RS calc-when'd that move get so weak? Noivern doesn't even need to gimp itself w/ DM vs Landog(won't KO anyways,) it can just go for Air Slash. Ofc, this is a spread for Scarf, so Landog will be outspeeding, unless it's AV and then AS isn't a 2HKO. So I guess you don't really beat Landog, though you get awfully close :(

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 28 HP / 20 Def Noivern: 144-169 (87.8 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

4 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 28 HP / 20 Def Noivern: 142-168 (86.5 - 102.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Some Megamence go 4 Atk/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spe, and those that do have little chance to OHKO w/ DE, though you outspeed and KO w/ DM, so that's really only relevant if you are at -2SpA/miss w/ DM. Megamence that attempt to preserve their bulk w/ Return will not typically OHKO, never if they only have 4 in Atk.

+4 0 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 66-79 (40.2 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 0 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 44-52 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Air Slash vs. 116 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 135-164 (81.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Rock vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 57-68 (34.7 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Solid Snake set. Actually survives a hit, disregard what I said earlier. Still, you're very likely to beat it. Even if AS doesn't flinch, the rare HP Rock(well, I'm assuming it's rare, never seen it,) is only a 3HKO-w/ Serp's lower Spe, that means you'll win even if you miss an AS. Calcs show you can safely switch in on Serp even if it's at +2(I wouldn't at +4 though, really nothing not immune should switch in at that point. Even Venusaur takes a pretty large chunk of damage, and it's +6 the next turn.)

0 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 152-180 (92.6 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 101-121 (48.7 - 58.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

Surviving Ice Beam isn't really relevant, as subsequent LO recoil will do you in, but I think it's interesting that it has a pretty decent chance to live an Ice Beam. The DM calc is relevant as it shows DM tends to out damage Super Fang assuming you're at normal SpA.

0+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 79-94 (48.1 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 112-135 (59.8 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IDK what EVs Mega Venu typically run, but this is mine. Odds are definitely in your favor here, though the odd AS miss can mess you up since Sludge Bomb is 100% accurate.

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 151-179 (111.8 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 28 HP / 20 Def Noivern: 147-174 (89.6 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

That power is scary, but luckily you outspeed and OHKO. Just try not to switch in.

252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 28 HP / 20 Def Noivern: 96-114 (58.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Gallade Shadow Sneak vs. 28 HP / 20 Def Noivern: 33-39 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 117-140 (81.2 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Almost 50% of Gallade have Ice Punch, which is ofc an OHKO and means you lose bar a lucky AS flinch, but the rest of them that aren't Stone Edge are beat.

212+ SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 152-180 (92.6 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

212+ SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 66-78 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 109-129 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-2 204 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 55-64 (35 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Again guessed the EVs(this is VGS2015 SpAing tank), but they get the point across. T-bolt is a 2HKO, but I see more of Volt Switch on Rotom-W, and the power difference is small enough running them together is redundant. Noivern can usually 2HKO w/ DM factoring in the SpA drop, and is only KOd by HP Ice, and even that's not guaranteed.

Probably went way overboard considering I just want it bumped up half a rank, but at least taking up so much space means I'm bound to get a response:)

 

[cant say]

Strictly no theorymonning in this thread. If you nominate a Pokemon based off some loose ideas you had rather than actual evidence - and no, posting a shitload of calcs in your Pokemon's favour does not count, anything can be made to look good with favourable calcs* - your post is likely to be deleted and repeated offences are open to infraction.

The Viability Ranking thread exists to give players an idea of what we know is actually good in the 3DS metagame by using / seeing them in practice / achieving high rankings on the ladder. It is not a place to dump your ideas. If you're looking at a Pokemon's usage on the PGL or its details on Serebii or whatever and think it could be usable, ask in the 3v3 discussion thread! Then, once you've gone out and used the Pokemon a considerable amount and know for a fact how good it is, you can come here and nominate it for a rank...

Omastar68 - there are so many things I want to point out about your Noivern nomination but I'll try to leave it short. Out of all of your massive post of calcs, you never once said what the hell Noivern does. What purpose does it serve? Why would anyone want to use it in their team? Ok, it's a special-attacking Dragon-type, what sets it apart from Hydreigon, and specially-based Mega Salamence / Dragonite? All you explained was those mon's faults and didn't really provide Noivern with any use except for outspeeding Greninja. Apart from that, Noivern is severely outclassed by those aforementioned dragons.

You also only spoke about the Life Orb set, but that pales in comparison to Frisk + Choice Specs + Switcheroo's usage, so I'm not sure you even have a real grasp on Noivern at all. Are you suggesting that a completely less popular set is worth B-, when Noivern's original viability (C+) was based off its only real niche in the metagame?

*Mamoswine on the last page was an exception to this as the wall of calcs was relevant to its offensive typing and threats in the metagame, and that it could do its job with limited investment.

 

[freekhoorn]

It is, since I used lum berry crawdnaut, so he can get this SD quite easily, without risking scald burn.

Also Mega Gardevoir and Zard Y are so common. That's biggest argument against suicune in S rank.

Gastrodno has clear smog and can say some swears to get high damage on EQ.

Reuniculus has psyshock so it's more like suicune is set up folder for him.

Milotic has both haze and dragon tail.

I agree that Suicune is good. It's hard to doubt that, but in my opinion there is too many thing which can stop it.

Gastrodon also has mirror coat, and you forget mega charizard X who can't be burned and can set up dragon dance on it.

After using it for around a year in my battlespot team now, I feel avalugg surely deserves a ranking.

Avalugg is my favourite pokemon and a pretty reliable counter (!) to the two most common pokemon on battlespot: garchomp and mega kanghaskan, and a great deal of the other physical attacking mons too thanks to its gigantic defense stat (184) and solid hp (95). It is pretty slow, but with recover he can recover damage back. Its main purpose is as a switch in to physical attacks and after that recover back the damage and deal passive damage with toxic, hail (according with ice body works well too) and rocky helmet or active damage with avalanche. Along with a pretty good attack stat (114) this pokemon can deal a lot of damage too. It also has a niche to deal with special attacking mons with sturdy and mirror coat altough that will be a one for one trade. Its best item is rocky helmet wich is very nice for switching in a fake out from mega khan cause that will deal more damage to khan himself then on avalugg. Other pokemon that avalugg can counter are mamoswine, mega gyarados (even after multiple dragon dances still not threatening to it), dragonite, landorous, mega salamence.

252+ Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 79-94 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yes, it can switch in to choice band fully invested garchomp outrage, then just recover back the damage while garchomp kills itself. This is even better than switching in a fairy cause this will do damage to garchomp.

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 153-181 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It checks also pokemon like banded talonflame and blaziken cause avalugg survives a stab boosted super effective move from them with a fair amount of hp left and can recover damage back so it will survive another hit of such an attack, while wearing those two pokemon of because of recoil and rocky helmet.

252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even fully invested choice band flare blits does no more than 68 % so after recover avalugg is guaranteed to survive another hit and then the poor bird dies of recoil while you have at least 64% over, which is enough to survive evrything from a garchomp or anything like it.

Even on the special side, it is not even that frail because of its high hp stat (95) so can live and retaliate back wtih avalanche:

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 136-162 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then avalugg ko'es thundy with avalanche afterwards.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 171-202 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It even lives sludge bomb from mega mengar.

With toxic and reliable recovery it can stall out pokemon like cresselia too.

Here is video example how avalugg 3-0s an opposing team. It was a battle against a thundurus, a garchomp and a mega kanghaskan where avalugg ko'ed every pokemon with some help from clefable with t-wave and healing wish support. You can see that it is pretty bulky and lives a life orb boosted t-bolt from thundurus (from full hp) and a stone edge from garchomp while avalugg had only 40% hp left. Note that even when mega khangaskan was t-waved avalugg avalanche still was low priority so had 120 BP instead of 60.

Battle code is 9DFW-WWWW-WW3B-VNGN

Of course avalugg has its flaws, specially hard hitting pokemon win from it (besides sturdy mirror coat) and its weak against stall, but apart from that, it is a pretty reliable cold stop to a great deal of the meta and a lot of people just forfeit when they see their super effective physical coverage moves almost do nothing and avalugg toxics them.
I think it can belong in B- along with other stall pokemons like quagsire and mega aggron.

 

[a0161613]

Gastrodon also has mirror coat, and you forget mega charizard X who can't be burned and can set up dragon dance on it.

After using it for around a year in my battlespot team now, I feel avalugg surely deserves a ranking.

Avalugg is my favourite pokemon and a pretty reliable counter (!) to the two most common pokemon on battlespot: garchomp and mega kanghaskan, and a great deal of the other physical attacking mons too thanks to its gigantic defense stat (184) and solid hp (95). It is pretty slow, but with recover he can recover damage back. Its main purpose is as a switch in to physical attacks and after that recover back the damage and deal passive damage with toxic, hail (according with ice body works well too) and rocky helmet or active damage with avalanche. Along with a pretty good attack stat (114) this pokemon can deal a lot of damage too. It also has a niche to deal with special attacking mons with sturdy and mirror coat altough that will be a one for one trade. Its best item is rocky helmet wich is very nice for switching in a fake out from mega khan cause that will deal more damage to khan himself then on avalugg. Other pokemon that avalugg can counter are mamoswine, mega gyarados (even after multiple dragon dances still not threatening to it), dragonite, landorous, mega salamence.

252+ Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 79-94 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yes, it can switch in to choice band fully invested garchomp outrage, then just recover back the damage while garchomp kills itself. This is even better than switching in a fairy cause this will do damage to garchomp.

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 153-181 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It checks also pokemon like banded talonflame and blaziken cause avalugg survives a stab boosted super effective move from them with a fair amount of hp left and can recover damage back so it will survive another hit of such an attack, while wearing those two pokemon of because of recoil and rocky helmet.

252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even fully invested choice band flare blits does no more than 68 % so after recover avalugg is guaranteed to survive another hit and then the poor bird dies of recoil while you have at least 64% over, which is enough to survive evrything from a garchomp or anything like it.

Even on the special side, it is not even that frail because of its high hp stat (95) so can live and retaliate back wtih avalanche:

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 136-162 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then avalugg ko'es thundy with avalanche afterwards.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 171-202 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It even lives sludge bomb from mega mengar.

With toxic and reliable recovery it can stall out pokemon like cresselia too.

Here is video example how avalugg 3-0s an opposing team. It was a battle against a thundurus, a garchomp and a mega kanghaskan where avalugg ko'ed every pokemon with some help from clefable with t-wave and healing wish support. You can see that it is pretty bulky and lives a life orb boosted t-bolt from thundurus (from full hp) and a stone edge from garchomp while avalugg had only 40% hp left. Note that even when mega khangaskan was t-waved avalugg avalanche still was low priority so had 120 BP instead of 60.

Battle code is 9DFW-WWWW-WW3B-VNGN

Of course avalugg has its flaws, specially hard hitting pokemon win from it (besides sturdy mirror coat) and its weak against stall, but apart from that, it is a pretty reliable cold stop to a great deal of the meta and a lot of people just forfeit when they see their super effective physical coverage moves almost do nothing and avalugg toxics them.
I think it can belong in B- along with other stall pokemons like quagsire and mega aggron.

What's the set on this. Need to try it out.

 

[freekhoorn]

What's the set on this. Need to try it out.

You can run multiple sets, but mine is:

Avalugg @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Hail
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Toxic

 

[Omastar68]

Strictly no theorymonning in this thread. If you nominate a Pokemon based off some loose ideas you had rather than actual evidence - and no, posting a shitload of calcs in your Pokemon's favour does not count, anything can be made to look good with favourable calcs* - your post is likely to be deleted and repeated offences are open to infraction.

The Viability Ranking thread exists to give players an idea of what we know is actually good in the 3DS metagame by using / seeing them in practice / achieving high rankings on the ladder. It is not a place to dump your ideas. If you're looking at a Pokemon's usage on the PGL or its details on Serebii or whatever and think it could be usable, ask in the 3v3 discussion thread! Then, once you've gone out and used the Pokemon a considerable amount and know for a fact how good it is, you can come here and nominate it for a rank...

Omastar68 - there are so many things I want to point out about your Noivern nomination but I'll try to leave it short. Out of all of your massive post of calcs, you never once said what the hell Noivern does. What purpose does it serve? Why would anyone want to use it in their team? Ok, it's a special-attacking Dragon-type, what sets it apart from Hydreigon, and specially-based Mega Salamence / Dragonite? All you explained was those mon's faults and didn't really provide Noivern with any use except for outspeeding Greninja. Apart from that, Noivern is severely outclassed by those aforementioned dragons.

You also only spoke about the Life Orb set, but that pales in comparison to Frisk + Choice Specs + Switcheroo's usage, so I'm not sure you even have a real grasp on Noivern at all. Are you suggesting that a completely less popular set is worth B-, when Noivern's original viability (C+) was based off its only real niche in the metagame?

*Mamoswine on the last page was an exception to this as the wall of calcs was relevant to its offensive typing and threats in the metagame, and that it could do its job with limited investment.

First off I want to say I have used Noivern extensively, and it does quite well. This isn't another stunt I pulled like w/ Mismagius. One big thing, particularly for my team, but also in general, is Noivern's utility vs Mega Venusaur, which Togekiss(which has a stronger Air Slash that flinches twice as often,) and Hrydreigon(whichis generally the better choice,) cannot boast, at least not as reliably, since Togekiss absolutely stunning needs the flinch(betting on 60% isn't too bad, but still,) and Hydreigln needs to either get really lucky w/ crits or Dark Pulse's flinch chance(unlikely,) or else use Draco Meteor boosted by Choice Specs. We've discussed my paranoia about substitute users before. Being able to hit them is nice, and you also bypass screens, which while rare can allow otherwise frail Pokes(or those that cut their HP, I.e. BD Azumarill,) to set up. PGL is doing maintenance right now, so no checking what gets used how often on Noivern, but I can definitely see the utility in Frisk, as it's good to know if you should go for the KO vs Garchomp or break its sash and hope for a flinch, and I have run Choice Specs + Switcheroo before. In terms of what Noivern has over specially based Megamence besides speed, it hits considerably harder w/ special moves(be it Specs-that haven't been given away-or LO.) Salamence also lacks Focus Blast for what it's worth. The biggest thing, ofc, is that Noivern doesn't take up your Mega slot. Have you seen a specially based Dragonite? Mixed might go for Fire Blast, but that's about it since Dragonite has much more Atk than SpA.

Thanks for the Frisk + Specs + Switcheroo idea, that's probably better than Infiltrator, which is really just for subs.

EDIT: I strongly agree that Avalugg should be ranked, probably B/B+ since nothing really outclasses it in its role-Suicune and Cresselia are both quite a bit les bulky on the physical side, neither hit as hard w/o a boost, and they're recovery options are worse than Recover(Moonlight's PP, plus it's ruined by Sand and Rain.) One big problem w/ Avalugg is it's ruined by status, as some things it normally beats like Talonflame all of a sudden become counters if they're running defensive investment and WoW. Still, a really solid mon, w/ a great STAB in Avalanche, the best recovery move in the game, gigantic physical bulk that lets it whittle stuff down w/ Rocky Helmet recoil, and the ability to take advantage of special attackers w/ Sturdy and Miror Coat. I had a set on one of my old RMTs, but I deleted it. It away freekhoorn's set, but w/ Sturdy as the ability, and EQ>Toxic and Miror Coat>Hail. Dont remember EVs exactly, but something like 252 HP/ 132 Atk/ 124 Def. Still have that crazy physical bulk, but you can KO more stuff.

 

[cant say]

First off I want to say I have used Noivern extensively, and it does quite well. This isn't another stunt I pulled like w/ Mismagius. One big thing, particularly for my team, but also in general, is Noivern's utility vs Mega Venusaur, which Togekiss(which has a stronger Air Slash that flinches twice as often,) and Hrydreigon(whichis generally the better choice,) cannot boast, at least not as reliably, since Togekiss absolutely stunning needs the flinch(betting on 60% isn't too bad, but still,) and Hydreigln needs to either get really lucky w/ crits or Dark Pulse's flinch chance(unlikely,) or else use Draco Meteor boosted by Choice Specs. We've discussed my paranoia about substitute users before. Being able to hit them is nice, and you also bypass screens, which while rare can allow otherwise frail Pokes(or those that cut their HP, I.e. BD Azumarill,) to set up. PGL is doing maintenance right now, so no checking what gets used how often on Noivern, but I can definitely see the utility in Frisk, as it's good to know if you should go for the KO vs Garchomp or break its sash and hope for a flinch, and I have run Choice Specs + Switcheroo before. In terms of what Noivern has over specially based Megamence besides speed, it hits considerably harder w/ special moves(be it Specs-that haven't been given away-or LO.) Salamence also lacks Focus Blast for what it's worth. The biggest thing, ofc, is that Noivern doesn't take up your Mega slot. Have you seen a specially based Dragonite? Mixed might go for Fire Blast, but that's about it since Dragonite has much more Atk than SpA.

Thanks for the Frisk + Specs + Switcheroo idea, that's probably better than Infiltrator, which is really just for subs.

EDIT: I strongly agree that Avalugg should be ranked, probably B/B+ since nothing really outclasses it in its role-Suicune and Cresselia are both quite a bit les bulky on the physical side, neither hit as hard w/o a boost, and they're recovery options are worse than Recover(Moonlight's PP, plus it's ruined by Sand and Rain.) One big problem w/ Avalugg is it's ruined by status, as some things it normally beats like Talonflame all of a sudden become counters if they're running defensive investment and WoW. Still, a really solid mon, w/ a great STAB in Avalanche, the best recovery move in the game, gigantic physical bulk that lets it whittle stuff down w/ Rocky Helmet recoil, and the ability to take advantage of special attackers w/ Sturdy and Miror Coat. I had a set on one of my old RMTs, but I deleted it. It away freekhoorn's set, but w/ Sturdy as the ability, and EQ>Toxic and Miror Coat>Hail. Dont remember EVs exactly, but something like 252 HP/ 132 Atk/ 124 Def. Still have that crazy physical bulk, but you can KO more stuff.

From memory, Choice Specs had at least 70% usage, and I feel like Frisk was similar, but pretty sure it was more!

Special Dragonite is a rare sight (since its DD and CB sets are so good), but it does exist. He has more SpA than Noivern, despite it being his secondary offensive stat, and much better bulk. He's usually on rain teams since he sports the niche of having both Hurricane and Thunder, as well as Surf or Waterfall to take advantage of the rain (even though Dragon-STAB + Extreme Speed makes it hard to fit in). I've used both it and Noivern before and found that Dragonite's bulk and power made up for his lack in speed.

Special Salamence is something I still haven't used yet (why do pseudo-legends' eggs take so long to hatch??) so I don't wanna go breaking my newly imposed 'no theorymonning' rule, but I feel like even though he 'takes your mega slot' (an arguement I've seen used against Megas a lot in this thread that I don't really agree with but that's best saved for another post), I believe he strongly outclasses Noivern. Aerilate Hyper Voice is so much better than Air Slash and Hurricane, and Mence has way better special options throughout his learnset that he puts Noivern to shame. Ok cool he doesn't learn Focus Blast, but what exactly does Salamence need that for? Fire Blast deals with all the Steels and Hydro Pump can even be used for Rocks (or Earthquake if going mixed). Ok yeah again, Noivern's speed is superior, but when he's getting outclassed in every other aspect (other stats, movepool, abilities) then it really isn't that good. This is the reason the Frisk + Specs + Switcheroo set become popular on it, because it's Noivern's only real niche. If you're using a different set, then you may as well use a different Pokemon and make sure you have a teammate that can deal with Greninja!

 

[Omastar68]

Hope I'm not making too much of a mockery of this thread-I rather like it, but it seems like I just got a bit of team building help. TBH the Specs thing might not help that much, so I guess I'll replace it w/ another dragon. It did seem a bit weird giving the reasons it's "better"-at least in some ways-then other dragons while simultaneously thinking about what they have over Noivern, which is usually a lot and always includes bulk(85/80/80 is ok for some things, but it's pretty weak as far as dragons go, all the BSS, and a few besides, are quite a bit bulkier.) Would you say Noivern is ok where it is in that case? Frisk + Specs + Switcheroo is pretty nifty, particularly for telling you if that Gyara is mega or not(for instance,) but there's no shortage of Trick Specs/Scarfers, and if letting you know the opponents item is all Noivern really has over something like TrickScarf Togekiss, is it really worth using at all?

For the sake of saying something productive, I want to not Mega Manectric and Mega Venusaur for A-. Hopefully that's less controversial, since these two are actually good Pokemon. I run them together, and I've done pretty well. Mega Venusaur is probably my favorite of the two. I really like Leech Seed, and my fairly odd choice of EQ on it has tripped so many people up. It doesn't hit w/ the greatest power ever, but the coverage is super appreciated, as Venu's STABs kinda fail offensively, and HP Fire is weak and still doesn't give the best coverage. That bulk with Synthesis and Leech Seed lets you wall a fair few things, and I've also had success w/ Sleep Powder(pretty funny when Venusaur beats Mega Charizard Y.) Mega Manectric has lots of power, great speed, and boosts its SpA w/ it's pre mega ability if it switches in on an electuring move, which makes it even better than Venu vs Rotom-W, as it can not only safely switch in, but get a boost, take zero damage as opposed to a little, and, most importantly, block Volt Switch, since w/ Venu switching in it always seems like it just goes right out to a Talon or something and you end up wasting turns. Intimidate is an extremely nice ability, and works great w/ Gyara, which also has Intimidate and synergizes extremely well w/ MM. The two can make a mockery of physical attackers if used correctly. MM's high SpA means its HP Ice actually tends to get KOs on the 4x weak dragons(not Dragonite w/ Multiscale intact, obviously, but you can VS out to Gyara, and go from there.) Overheat is really the rest of its coverage(Signal Beam is worth nothing in this meta, all top 12 resist or are neutral,) but it's great. I firmly believe every team should have a Fire type attack, since Ferro and Scizor can be obnoxious otherwise, and Overheat is a really nice attack, since it's power means an 2x SE Overheat is stronger than a neutral T-Bolt, and it pairs well w/ Volt Switch(which is also just a fantastic move in general. I'll post some replays where ey do really well if people ask, might do it tomorrow anyways.

 

[hetoord]

I agree Mega Manectric is a great Pokémon in the metagame, however I think it's fits better in B+ than in A- (in other words its ranked fine as is). Earthquake is a very common move, in the top 12 we can find Garchomp and Mamoswine, but also Kangaskhan that carries it every once in a while. A flying or levitating partner, like Gyarados as you mentioned or Talonflame, Lando-T, is very nice to have. It's a weakness that is easily dealt with, but it's a form of team support that's almost necessary in order for Manectric to work best.

There are quite a few Pokémon it can't get a guaranteed OHKO against (either doing around 50%-60% damage or 97%-105%), from a few quick calculations: Mega Salamence, Kangaskhan, Aegislash, Mamoswine, Garchomp, Cresselia, Suicune and Rotom Wash. However I honestly don't think Manectric does bad in this regard at all, as long as you're away what it can and can't KO from specific HP ranges you should be fine.

Manectric definitely requires team support against EQ and to weaken those that it can't OHKO. While that's definitely not a bad thing, especially because it's common partners are all Pokémon you could run on your team without using Mega Manectric. I think a flying/levitating Pokémon is required in order to deal with the very common Earthquakes. Because of this requirement I think B+ suits it better than A-; with rank A Pokémon I'd expect them to work best with some form of team support, but that they'd still be able to do fine without (otherwise the distinction between 'less team support' and 'more team support' is rather vague). Manectric just barely doesn't fit that personal definition. But then again that's just how I interpret the split between rank A and B.

 

[a0161613]

Mega Manectric to stay in A- for me. Magnet Rise is a thing and it's HP is dead strong.

Intimidate is a great ability for a volt switch user. Lightning rod pre Mega is nice too

Earthquake isn't a bad thing to need team support. I believe that it can survive all but very strongest (can't calc right now, experience only.). It has the one of the best moves to check ground types whilst having all around great utility against birds & dragons.

 

[Seth_]

In spite of fact I'm done with battle spot singles. I really want to bring discussion about Crawdnaut.

I have some battles with this mon because I though it might be good against defensive teams. And I was right CRAWDNAUT IS AMAZING AGAINST EVERYTHING TANKY. However he have problem, he dies to almost everything what is not tank.

It's kinda strange because crawdnaut is good against mons which many sweepers struggle to deal with it. Porygon 2, Suicune, Cres, Hippo, Chansey, Mega Scizor, Heatran. He beats every single one of them.

However he's hard to use. Even with Aqua jet has no chance against most common mon like talonflame, kanga, blaziken and few other. However his huge wallbreaking power might be worth consider in team. I would give him C- because he really need to come in right time, but when that happens he's gold.

 

[hetoord]

Below are some of the calcs I used for Manectric. They're all against the top 12 except I also added Lando-T, because I wanted to see another calc for a Pokémon 4x weak against HP ice. Haven't checked any other common EQ users, mostly because I'm supposed to be working right now.

versus Garchomp:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 164-196 (89.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 138-164 (95.1 - 113.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 152-180 (104.8 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Manectric has a chance, but Focus Sash and Choice Scarf are worrisome, especially Adamant Choice Scarf ones. Not something to worry about if scouting was done properly.

versus Mamoswine:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 114-136 (61.6 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 152-180 (104.8 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (e.g. Adamant Choice Scarf)
-1 252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 138-164 (95.1 - 113.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 179-213 (123.4 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (e.g. Jolly + Life Orb)

Like Garchomp depending on what the Mamoswine is, this can be worrisome. Assault Vest (29.2%), Life Orb (12.0%) and Choice Scarf (10.4%) + max speed are all a problem. If Mamoswine is weakened and it's not scarfed it's not a problem, so again it comes down to scouting.

versus Kangaskhan:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 79-94 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 121-144 (83.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 54-64 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Sucker Punch after Double-Edge is a KO)
-1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 135-159 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Kangaskhan survives and gets priority. Most Manectric use Thunderbolt/Hidden Power/Volt Switch + Overheat or Flamethrower, making them weak to Sucker Punch. I'd say Kangaskhan is favored here and the best thing that Manectric can do is Volt Switch into something that can take a hit.

versus Lando-T:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 172-204 (104.2 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T: 112-136 (67.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 164-194 (113.1 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again Choice Scarf and Focus Sash are dangerous, Assault Vest Lando also survives. Again it requires scouting, otherwise EQ kills Manectric.

versus Mega Salamence:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 156-184 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 100-118 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Manectric is definitely favored here.

versus Talonflame:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 168-198 (109.8 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (if Volt Switch is a guaranteed OHKO, Thunderbolt definitely is)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 49-58 (33.7 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 99-117 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not that it'll ever have a chance to do this)

Again, Manectric is favored here (as expected).

versus Rotom Wash:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 76-90 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO (I'm not sure if the damage calculator accounts for Sitrus Berry or not, it doesn't seem to)
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 78-93 (53.7 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again pretty even, but Sitrus Berry should protect Rotom from the 2HKO if I'm correct, giving it a chance to 2HKO in return (accuracy yo)

This is what I mean; Manectric does a lot of damage against most of these, however a lot of things also deal a lot of damage to it in return if it fails to KO (leaving it weak to revenge killing and priority in general). Manectric doesn't like these EQs, which is where the flyers/levitators come in which I personally think are necessary partners as I said. This is reflected in the usage statistics on the PGL: four of the top ten common partners are Lando-T, Gyarados, Talonflame and Hydreigon. Like I say I personally would draw the line between the A and B ranks requiring team support and favoring team support. Although Manectric being so good overall I could definitely approve of it moving up to A- (also because there's a difference between using another great Pokémon like Lando and using a weak move like Electric Terrain for it to be good). I personally like Manectric ranked where it currently is, though, but maybe I've been using my Manectrics wrong.

Also I hope Magnet Rise wasn't a serious suggestion, though. The PGL has Light Screen as it's least used move and that's 1%, so Magnet Rise is less than that.

 

[a0161613]

I would never have thought light screen was a good idea Magnet Rise negates a few of those switch in & effectively gives no weaknesses for a few turns.

Admittedly it's possibly a better move to receive but baton pass is not consistent.

I really like Manectric and can totally understand that Magnet Rise is tough to fit in. I've been thinking on the drive home and this definitely straddles the A-/B+ line.

 

[Omastar68]

That's exactly what I was thinking for rank after reading the first bit of your post! Crawdaunt can be nigh on invincible w/ a few DDs under its belt, but it needs some form of support to set those up. W/o support its easily beaten by a myriad of threats, but it also beats quite a few things like Mega Sableye(pretty much positive, just don't switch in on WoW or boosted special attacks,) and it can at least dent everything w/ Aqua Jet, which is the same as non STAB Waterfall w/ priority in terms of power.


Can't get a replay-search is down for maintenance. Surprised Landog dropped from the top 12, and is a Magnet Rise really such a poor option for MM? It lets it beat pretty much all those nasty EQ users. Vs Rotom-w, I'm pretty much always switching in on Volt Switch and getting a boost before going Mega, so I beat(ofc this stops if I go Magnetic Rise>T-bolt, but I wasn't really thinking I'd do that, just saying MG is better than most if not all of MM's options besides its main four moves. Notice no discussion on Mega Venusaur. I've actually used it more than MM, and it's just been really great. I run a Relaxed nature, w/ enough physical bulk to always survive CB Talon's BB at full health. Moves are Sludge Bomb, EQ, Synthesis, and Leech Seed. Often Venu's foe is paralyzed, but I'm pretty sure that support isn't completely necessary. Giga Drain really doesn't add too much coverage wise, as Rotom-W is beat w/ just Sludge Bomb, rock types are rare and TTar takes quite a bit more from EQ, and Quagsire is also very rarely seen(and SB's 30% to Toxic poison w/ Leech Seed's pretty powerful HP draining effect is also more than enough to take it.) GG is better for Suicune than SB, but not by much and again the poison chance makes up for a lot, eventually coercing Suicune into Resting. Venu has been great vs Heatran for me, and more often than not beats Aegislash w/ Leech Seed and EQ(if it's blade it's gotta KS to live it, getting you a free turn to drain w/ Seed.) Main problem is ofc WP, since EQ triggers that, but it is usually ok, particularly if Aegi is parad. MM is beaten w/ EQ as well, and Raikou, Jolteon, Serperior, Zapdos, Garchomp, Gengar, Kangaskhan(if nothing else it'll eat fat recoil,) and Cresselia are examples of other common Pokes my Venu beats, and it can even switch in on quite a few of them! I also want to make a note of Dragalge. I've actually never seen it, but it's ranked decently high and SB/GG/ HP Fire Mega Venu can't touch it. Same goes for Tentacruel(except the high rank part,) except it trades a grass resist for the ability to damage you when you use GG. Mega Venu obviously has its problems-non bulky Talon does unhealthy amounts of damage, and Megamence flat out ruins you, but every Poke has its down sides, and at least most of the stuff that messes up Mega Venu(Togekiss, Lati twins, Reuniclus, Noivern, etc.) is pretty rare compared to checks/counters of Pokes like Chomp and Mega Gengar(I'm loving AV Diggersby for this guy.) Also, only two weaknesses as a mega, same as Thundy and fewer than Chomp(plus psychic barely counts anymore-really only relevant for Lati twins.)

Another big argument for Venu and MM going to A- is Mega Altaria is B+, and I'm pretty sure everyone can agree they're better than Malt, which I've never seen on PS(yes, I know cart play is preferred, but same meta and ban list, so it's pretty comparable.) I guess it could also be ok to keep them B+ and move Malt down to maybe B. I think Mega Lopunny and Gardevoir are good in B+ regardless of if Venu and MM are moved up.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

In my opinion, I don't really see Mega Manectric at A- and I can't necessarily see it going anywhere beyond B+ unless I'm fully convinced because I use Mega Manectric awfully a lot in Battle Spot Singles. Magnet Rise is just an option but I would't recommend it on Mega Manectric. It's better off as an all out attacker. Mega Manectric is great for hit and running because it can help scout. nice with Intimidate in helping its teammates and Mega Manectric itself take another attack, outspeed pretty much the entire metagame bar some Choice Scarf Pokemon, and get rid of some threats such as Mega Gengar. I'd rather talk about some of the flaws that make it lackluster in going above B+.

Mega Manectric has subpar bulk 70/80/80. Nothing to really be amazed about even with Intimidate. In which it has to rely on. The problem with the calcs is that they're calculated when Manectric Mega Evolves or when it switches in off a fainted foe and those are the only conditions it meets to get a good Intimidate off. It's known to have a lack of recovery. What really makes me annoyed playing with Mega Manectric are some of the bulky special walls it has no hope in breaking through such as Chansey, Cresselia, Porygon2 with Trace in copying Mega Manectric's Lighting Rod ability making it immune to its Electric-type attacks. Mega Charizard X can certainly demolish it resisting all its moves bar Hidden Power Ice. Unlike the many A or S rank Pokemon, Mega Manectric needs quite a bit more support if it wants to be used to its full potential because there's many Pokemon that it can't handle on its own. Not to mention it doesn't have a reliable way of setting up either.

 

[Omastar68]

Wouldn't really have a slot for something like Nasty Plot even if it got it, though. Porygon2 has been a problem for me, so I guess MM stay in in B+ makes decent enough sense. Mega Venusaur is the one I'm more interested though. Still no way to retrieve my replays, but I just think it's an amazing Pokemon. Of the top 12, only Megamence and Talon really give it trouble, and Talon is survived and takes a beating from Sludge Bomb(and I'm pretty sure 0 Atk neutral Talon doesn't 2HKO, so it gets messed up through a combination of Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Sludge Bomb.) Ordinarilly Venu is crap vs Mega Gengar, but Gengar is 2HKOd by EQ, which is unexpected enough it won't predict and use WoW(probably will use WoW e 2nd turn once it knows, but by then it's too late cause Gengar ain't got recovery.) Some other things Mega Venu beats that I haven't mentioned are Conkeldurr, non boosted Mega Houndoom, Zard X(again unboosted, though boosted and paralyzed can be ok,) Magnezone(rare, but Venu crushes it even w/o EQ,) Hippowdon, Clefable, Gyarados(really you only fear T-Wave and Taunt, so it'll never beat you alone,) unboosted Mega Mawile, Breloom(one of the most important ones. I hate Spore, and feel I need a switch in, but Sap Sippers tend to be situational,) unboosted Mega Lucario(you want EQ for this,) Excadrill(yay! EQ!) Hydreigon(you don't hard counter or anything, but it either needs luck w/ Dark Pulse flinches or some crazy set like Modest Specs,) Klefki(sorta, Swagger and T-Wave suck, but it gets drained w/ LS and is weak to EQ,) unboosted Mega Lopunny, Sylveon(Pyshock sucks, but it hits your better defense w/ 80 BP and no STAB. Just don't switch in and you're fine,) unboosted Terrakion, both Thundys lacking Psychic, Bisharp, Whimsicott, non Psychic Chandelure, Politoed, Mega Swampert, and a whole bunch of stuff below B rank. High stats all around, you can only complain about speed and HP. The former has to be pretty mediocre(if it was like base 120 Venu would be horribly OP,) and the HP is fine in conjunction w/ those defenses. Venu needs support vs flying types, but everything needs support for it's weaknesses. You don't see people lobbying for Garchomp being moved down to B+ because it can't take ice attacks. Flying is also it's only really relevant weakness, as I've said before, and it's not like having to have flying covered by something else is such a bad thing-flying is common enough everyone has ways to deal w/ flying spam, and, really, how hard is it to fit something like Rotom-W or Thundurus on a team?

 

[Anirav]

Hey guys, I love that everyone is participating and getting involved on this thread but I have a simple request. I think it would be better if we didn't keep bringing up new pokemon after every like 2-3 posts. It would be a lot easier for everyone to give their views that way. As for Mega Manectric, it has too many counters and checks like hetoord pointed out and definitely needs team support to function so I feel it needs to stay in B+.

 

[GateCreeper]

Hey guys, I love that everyone is participating and getting involved on this thread but I have a simple request. I think it would be better if we didn't keep bringing up new pokemon after every like 2-3 posts. It would be a lot easier for everyone to give their views that way. As for Mega Manectric, it has too many counters and checks like hetoord pointed out and definitely needs team support to function so I feel it needs to stay in B+.

I agree with this. We're moving too fast. There's really no need to rush this, so bringing up new pokemon in every 2-3 posts is unnecessary, so let some other people have some time to give their insight. I also feel that Mega Manectric needs to stay in B+, if anything I see it moving down a rank rather than up.

Wouldn't really have a slot for something like Nasty Plot even if it got it, though. Porygon2 has been a problem for me, so I guess MM stay in in B+ makes decent enough sense. Mega Venusaur is the one I'm more interested though. Still no way to retrieve my replays, but I just think it's an amazing Pokemon. Of the top 12, only Megamence and Talon really give it trouble, and Talon is survived and takes a beating from Sludge Bomb(and I'm pretty sure 0 Atk neutral Talon doesn't 2HKO, so it gets messed up through a combination of Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Sludge Bomb.) Ordinarilly Venu is crap vs Mega Gengar, but Gengar is 2HKOd by EQ, which is unexpected enough it won't predict and use WoW(probably will use WoW e 2nd turn once it knows, but by then it's too late cause Gengar ain't got recovery.) Some other things Mega Venu beats that I haven't mentioned are Conkeldurr, non boosted Mega Houndoom, Zard X(again unboosted, though boosted and paralyzed can be ok,) Magnezone(rare, but Venu crushes it even w/o EQ,) Hippowdon, Clefable, Gyarados(really you only fear T-Wave and Taunt, so it'll never beat you alone,) unboosted Mega Mawile, Breloom(one of the most important ones. I hate Spore, and feel I need a switch in, but Sap Sippers tend to be situational,) unboosted Mega Lucario(you want EQ for this,) Excadrill(yay! EQ!) Hydreigon(you don't hard counter or anything, but it either needs luck w/ Dark Pulse flinches or some crazy set like Modest Specs,) Klefki(sorta, Swagger and T-Wave suck, but it gets drained w/ LS and is weak to EQ,) unboosted Mega Lopunny, Sylveon(Pyshock sucks, but it hits your better defense w/ 80 BP and no STAB. Just don't switch in and you're fine,) unboosted Terrakion, both Thundys lacking Psychic, Bisharp, Whimsicott, non Psychic Chandelure, Politoed, Mega Swampert, and a whole bunch of stuff below B rank. High stats all around, you can only complain about speed and HP. The former has to be pretty mediocre(if it was like base 120 Venu would be horribly OP,) and the HP is fine in conjunction w/ those defenses. Venu needs support vs flying types, but everything needs support for it's weaknesses. You don't see people lobbying for Garchomp being moved down to B+ because it can't take ice attacks. Flying is also it's only really relevant weakness, as I've said before, and it's not like having to have flying covered by something else is such a bad thing-flying is common enough everyone has ways to deal w/ flying spam, and, really, how hard is it to fit something like Rotom-W or Thundurus on a team?

Mega Venusaur is quite good, yes. Something tells me that it being in A- is a little too much imo. It does really struggle against bulky setup sweepers like Garchomp, Salamence, and others. It kind of lacks the bulk to take repeated strong hits from the likes of M-Kang and boosted/CB Dragonite, and it gets totally wrecked by things like Gengars who choose not to Mega Evolve and WoW (which they would probably do) and WP Aegislash. All of these are fairly common, so this gives it some trouble when using it. My other problem with Mega Venusaur is that you really can't just slap it on a team. I feel as if it has to be built around if you want it to do its job successfully, and fitting it into a team can prove to be quite difficult, which qualifies for a B ranked mon. I also don't see it myself on cart too often... at least at mid ladder. However, Poison STAB is very useful, it has pretty good bulk and a recovery, and an amazing ability eliminating two of its weaknesses. I could possibly see it go to A- in the future, but my gut tells me it should just stay in B+ for now. Some replays of it being used (in cart) may change my opinion otherwise.

 

[Omastar68]

Noticed Mega Sableye is in B+, so I'm no longer gonna push for either of my Megas moving up to A-. I still maintain that Mega Altaria should be moved down, maybe to B, though. It just isn't as good as Venu, MM, or Mega Sableye. I'm not really familiar w/ it, but it's power and bulk are both quite low for a mega, and base 75 HP and base 80 speed also hurt it.

 

[cant say]

Hey guys, I love that everyone is participating and getting involved on this thread but I have a simple request. I think it would be better if we didn't keep bringing up new pokemon after every like 2-3 posts. It would be a lot easier for everyone to give their views that way. As for Mega Manectric, it has too many counters and checks like hetoord pointed out and definitely needs team support to function so I feel it needs to stay in B+.

Seconding this. If we could all chill tf out with rapid-fire nominating then maybe we can actually come to a consensus on some mons and rank them accordingly. I've been meaning to come up with a list of stuff that should be (re)ranked so I might drop that here later when I'm home.

Noticed Mega Sableye is in B+, so I'm no longer gonna push for either of my Megas moving up to A-. I still maintain that Mega Altaria should be moved down, maybe to B, though. It just isn't as good as Venu, MM, or Mega Sableye. I'm not really familiar w/ it, but it's power and bulk are both quite low for a mega, and base 75 HP and base 80 speed also hurt it.

Why are you trying to compare all of Mega Sableye, Altaria, Manectric, and Venusaur?? Literally the only thing they share is requiring a bloody mega stone! We don't need to have one mega per rank and place them depending on how good they are in relation to one another, that isn't how viability lists work... They all do different jobs and are all of equal viability to one another. Also, if you haven't used Mega Altaria, why comment on it?? For the record, I've used it a lot and it's one of my absolute favourite Megas! Dragon Dance with Pixilate Return / Facade and Earthquake is brutal. Not only that, but it's can run an equally good special set with Hyper Voice, or a more defensive spread. It's really good....

 

[Omastar68]

Seconding this. If we could all chill tf out with rapid-fire nominating then maybe we can actually come to a consensus on some mons and rank them accordingly. I've been meaning to come up with a list of stuff that should be (re)ranked so I might drop that here later when I'm home.



Why are you trying to compare all of Mega Sableye, Altaria, Manectric, and Venusaur?? Literally the only thing they share is requiring a bloody mega stone! We don't need to have one mega per rank and place them depending on how good they are in relation to one another, that isn't how viability lists work... They all do different jobs and are all of equal viability to one another. Also, if you haven't used Mega Altaria, why comment on it?? For the record, I've used it a lot and it's one of my absolute favourite Megas! Dragon Dance with Pixilate Return / Facade and Earthquake is brutal. Not only that, but it's can run an equally good special set with Hyper Voice, or a more defensive spread. It's really good....

Well, it's more that I haven't seen Mega Altaria...well maybe once or twice, but at least on PS I have seen Cloyster much more frequently than it. I have used it in the Battle Maison, and I'd say it's relatively good since it has a nice movepool and ability, but w/ how much more I see Mega Venusaur then it...I figured it's widely considered to be better. Maybe not, I guess I'll try and make another team w/ it at the center and see how that goes. Also, I was most certainly not comparing Mega Manectric, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Sableye-what I said is that Mega Sableye being B+ was why I decided to stop trying to get MM and Venu bumped up to A-, since I don't think they should be in a higher rank than it(as for moving them all up together...idk.)

 

[freekhoorn]

I agree with mega manectric staying B+ for the same reason as hetoord brought up: it does need specific team support and that is a good distinction between A and B. Apart from that, mega Manectric is not really able to fulfill multiple roles than a fast special attacker. Altough it has some "extras" as intimidate and volt switch, i don't see that as entirely different roles. Mega manectric is also not really fantastic in the role it does have, because it misses some ohko's on garchomp for example, maybe i even consider it less than B+ after thinking about these flaws.

 

[Psynergy]

So this thread took a super hard turn from too much going on to nothing at all. I notice Mamoswine is still in A- but I know there was discussion on moving it up that eventually got drowned out. I don't know if there was ever a real consensus on that but is there a reason not to move it up at this point now that it's consistently been in Top 12 (8th at the end of last season)? It was pretty well established that Mamoswine's amazing offensive typing really helps it against most of the top threats in the format, and I don't think the sudden jump in Cresselia usage really changes this. It's definitely at least as useful as the rest of A rank.

On the topic of A rank though I also wanted to bring up Serperior because it's fallen quite a bit in usage over the past few seasons. Since Season 10 where it jumped from 26th in the previous season up to 13th, it's only continued to fall in usage each season (15th, 18th, 25th and currently 27th). Basically I'm wondering if it still necessarily fits in A rank as opposed to A- at this point. It's still great, a Grass-type with high speed that can not only threaten Suicune and Rotom-W, but use them as a jumping point to sweep is still really good. But it still has losing or nigh impossible matchups against a lot of other top threats like Gengar, Aegislash, Salamence, Talonflame, Ferrothorn (if lacking HP Fire) and every other Fire-type. I'm not necessarily pushing for it to move down but with the drop in usage since it's been put up in A, I think it's something to consider.

 

[Anirav]

Speaking of pokemon that have been moving to a different level in terms of usage, cresselia has been moving up constantly since season 10.
Season 10 19th
Season 11 16th
Season 12 13th
Season 13 12th
Season 14 8th! (It was even 7th for a while)
Rocky helmet cresselia is one of the best walls in the meta able to wall almost all physical attackers in the top 20 except Aegislash and Tyranitar. Cresselia also has great all around bulk (120/120/130) so it can take special hits quite well even if there is no investment in special defense. It provides great support for offensive mons being able to run thunder wave, trick room, toxic and lunar dance. Although it's offensive stats are subpar, it has access to Ice Beam which means a lot in a meta where ice coverage is very important imo. All that being said, I really feel it needs to move from A to A+.

 

[Psynergy]

I was thinking of bringing up Cresselia in my post, partly because of that same steady rise. I'm not actually sure if I think it should go up to A+ though. It's definitely one of the best walls in the format and Levitate gives it a notable edge over Suicune on top of slightly better bulk across the board. But the Psychic typing is definitely a problem since it lacks many useful resistances and weaknesses to Dark and Ghost is really annoying. Unlike Suicune it doesn't have Scald's better coverage and burn chance to allow it to threaten more things immediately, and the 15 less SpA also means it's doing less damage even with x4 damage Ice Beams. I'm not greatly opposed to Cresselia in A+ but I feel like the awkward typing and significant lack of offensive threat brings Cresselia down just a bit so I think it's fine in A. It might be worth seeing how Cresselia's usage looks later in the season though because being Top 12 is definitely not something to take lightly.