Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings

[Pearl]

I have no clue how common Stall is on Showdown since I only play on cart, but a lot of Nippon dudes use it to grind the ladder and (regular) Tyranitar is one of the most common Pokemon on that team archetype for a lot of reasons, but mainly because of its ability to soft check threats such as Mega Gengar, Thundurus and Talonflame, all of which are among the most common Pokemon on offense and can be a little tricky to handle for stall (it's true that Chansey is a nearly perfect counter to Thundurus and that both mega and regular Slowbro destroy Talonflame pretty hard, but Mega Gengar poses a huge threat to both, which is where Tyranitar comes in)

Mega Tyranitar, on the other hand, is usually paired up with Excadrill on offense and its main appeal over other possible mega slots is being able to 1v1 both Mega Kangaskhan (most of the times) and Salamence, as well as working as a neat soft check to Talonflame, Gengar and most Thundurus-I variants. Personally, I'm not a fan of it, but I can see why people run it. It rarely pulls off a sweep by itself (if you want a mega Pokemon that can straight up 3-0 teams then give Zard X or Gyarados a shot), since it's kind of easy to revenge kill and has some pretty bleak match ups, but it can still pave the way for the aforementioned Excadrill and other dangerous threats such as regular Blaziken.

Too lazy to provide calcs right now, but you can trust me on this one (for the record, most Japanese teams I've seen with regular Assault Vest-less Tyranitar run 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful, so it definitely tanks at least one Focus Blast from most Pokemon)

 

[Omastar68]

It's pretty impressive that ttar has seven weaknesses and still manages to do as well as it does.

Also I don't understand why you think a x4 weaknesses is as big of a deal as you think it is. Plenty of the best pokemon have a x4 weakness yet that doesn't stop them. Landorus, Garchomp, Salamence, Heatran, Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc.

Well as you say, it's all those other weaknesses too. Scizor has a 4x weakness, but that's it. Heatran and Ferro don't have many other weaknesses, and lots of resistances. The ice weak mons your u mention are all faster, which is a big deal. TTar also doesn't have many good resistances. Dark, Ghost, Fire, Flying, Normal, Poison, and a Psychic immunity.

Dark resist isn't that helpful. Really only thing I'm thinking of there is switching on Hydra locked into Dark Pulse. Kang doesnt miss doing that with Sucker Punch since it's faster and has PuP. Mawi can just OHKO, so it wouldn't be using Sucker even if TTar was neutral. Bisharp and Weavile are pretty rare rare, but they both have SE moves on TTar so don't care that they're dark STAB. Mamo has EQ, Sharpeso has Water STAB, Sableye has WoW, etc.

Ghost isn't that helpful of a resistance for TTar, at least considering ghosts will often have FB. Some TTar can take one of those, but mayb not after switching in on a Ghost move, and the bulk for that takes away a lot from power. Ghosts also have WoW very often, and Destiny Bond isn't uncommon either.

Fire and Flying are mostly good for Talon, and Flying is sorta helpful for Mence as well, tho it does have EQ(not enuff without a boost or two tho.) Blaziken Ofc has fighting STAB, while Zard Y has Solarbeam or possibly FB. Zard X would rather use Outrage, and Heatran has SE Steel STAB. Mega Pinsir will have either EQ or a fighting move, so doesn't miss hitting TTar neutrally with Flying STAB that much.

Normal is really only relevant as an attacking type from Kang, which will almost certainly have EQ or PuP if not both, and Poison isn't very common as an offensive typing anyways. A Psychic immunity can be nice...but generally doesn't help much.

 

[jroxas]

I want to say that TTar is better than you're giving it credit for, but there are only two in the top 100 S14 teams, so maybe demotion to B+ has merit.

 

[Omastar68]

I want to say that TTar is better than you're giving it credit for, but there are only two in the top 100 S14 teams, so maybe demotion to B+ has merit.

Thanks lol. That's like what I'm saying. TTar isn't really that bad, and if some weirdo wanted to demote it to D or unranked I'd argue much more vehemently against that than I've argued for it being dropped just a little. Mayb I came on a little strong, I just don't think it's quite A material.

 

[NOVED]

update on some 'council' decisions:

mamoswine: remaining A. this was actually at A- as some people have pointed out. i was actually supposed to move it to A a while ago. but, some people were making arguments for A+, and the majority of us agreed A is fine. while its stabs cover a whole lot of mons, its still easily checked by a lot of things like the mon im about to mention next.

cresselia: moving up to A+. great mon, does a lot of good things consistently and checks a lot of top threats.

serperior: remaining A. it has some hard stops, but it still does what it does fairly well, reflecting and getting more boosts on kang/chomp/etc is nice, being able to spread para on a wider range of mons is also really nice.

mega manectric: remaining B+. theres a lot of good electric types that compete with manectric for a team slot, and most of them dont take a mega and are probably more effective. it does have good qualities though, B+ is a fine fit.

roserade: moving down to B-. mediocre grass type. has some cool calcs but really doesnt offer a lot and loses to lots of stuff.

And that's all for now. You can tell us your thoughts on these or bring up new nominations.


I would like to bring up one mon for discussion though. Mega Mawile for A+. Massive attack that's really difficult to switch into, strong priority, good typing, only real downside is its speed. Thoughts?

 

[Anirav]

Well I agree with all the changes that have been implemented. I do feel some more things need to be addressed.

I feel chansey needs to move up to B+ or B. It has a great matchup with pretty much all special attackers and has access to a variety of moves which can help support a team such as thunder wave, toxic, and stealth rock. It also runs can get pretty annoying if it has swagger and minimize.

Clawitzer needs to move down to C-. I have no idea why it's still so high. It has subpar bulk and terrible speed. Although it does have a decent special attack stat, I don't see it B- worthy. Nothing else to be said.

Although Mega Mawile has been moving up in usage and I personally love using it, I feel it needs to say in A. Pokemon in A+ can hold their own against most pokemon. I don't think the same can be said about mawile. Mega Mawile requires some form of speed control and support. It's also quite susceptible to burns. Another flaw is that it can get stuck into sucker punch mindgames which can sometimes be the result of a loss. Also this is straight from the mega mawile analysis "Because of Mega Mawile's flaws, it's not simply a Pokemon you can slap on your team" Despite that, it does have notable traits that NOVED pointed out. This is all just my opinion. I would definitely like to hear what rest of the community thinks.

 

[Omastar68]

Well I agree with all the changes that have been implemented. I do feel some more things need to be addressed.

I feel chansey needs to move up to B+ or B. It has a great matchup with pretty much all special attackers and has access to a variety of moves which can help support a team such as thunder wave, toxic, and stealth rock. It also runs can get pretty annoying if it has swagger and minimize.

Clawitzer needs to move down to C-. I have no idea why it's still so high. It has subpar bulk and terrible speed. Although it does have a decent special attack stat, I don't see it B- worthy. Nothing else to be said.

Although Mega Mawile has been moving up in usage and I personally love using it, I feel it needs to say in A. Pokemon in A+ can hold their own against most pokemon. I don't think the same can be said about mawile. Mega Mawile requires some form of speed control and support. It's also quite susceptible to burns. Another flaw is that it can get stuck into sucker punch mindgames which can sometimes be the result of a loss. Also this is straight from the mega mawile analysis "Because of Mega Mawile's flaws, it's not simply a Pokemon you can slap on your team" Despite that, it does have notable traits that NOVED pointed out. This is all just my opinion. I would definitely like to hear what rest of the community thinks.

Not really sure what to say on Chansey, but I agree on the other two. Clawitzer shouldn't be so high. Yea it has a lot of power, but not much else. I do think it should stay ranked somewhere though, as you say. Lots of power with still decent bulk and a fairly nice typing.

Mawile I agree with. It's really good, but has its share of problems that make me think it shouldn't be going up. Lots of stuff can OHKO while also outspeeding(Ofc) and even taking Sucker, some of these with Mawi at +2. Heatran in particular is the devil for Mawi. Only mon to 4x resist fairy, and it 4x resists steel as well. Knock Off is pretty dangerous, but only the first time when Tran has a item. It can take a Sucker and probably just OHKO, while some can play around that with Sub and/ or WoW.

Lots of other stuff is super dangerous, some things more if they don't get Intimidated by pre mega first, like Chomp.

Doesn't really seem like something you use without ample support, unlike say Cress.

 

[Psynergy]

Chansey is definitely better than B- but I don't think it's quite a B+ kind of Pokemon. It's never been super common and that's reflected in the fact that stall, while effective, is a pretty specific team composition that runs into massive issues with some stuff like Mega Gengar. So Chansey is very restricted in terms of what teams it can be used on and said teams aren't incredibly common. That being said it is very good at what it does and I guess you could argue that Chansey is a vital cornerstone of stall and therefore worthy of B+, but I personally think B is a good spot for it at least for now. Chansey loses to Volcarona though I have video evidence of this

I also don't personally agree with Mawile in A+ just yet, it has all this power and it's super popular lately yet it has a tough time against a lot of the top threats without notable support. This is something that aniravjain alluded to in his argument, but the thing with current A+ mons is that you can fit them on a team and they work with little to no support at all, and I'm not quite sure Mega Mawile is at that level. Heavy reliance on Sucker Punch is also annoying especially with the low PP, and the low speed is a huge liability without Trick Room support so despite its incredible defensive typing still usually acting second, which can be a pain without the proper support. I might change my mind if Mega Mawile continues to remain this popular but I sort of don't agree with the massive usage it's been getting, I think it's fine in A for now.

 

[Omastar68]

Do people have any thots about if Drifblim can move up to C?

Some other things mentioned(mostly by me) that people seemed to agree deserve a rank(or at least no one argued against them,) are Avalugg, Uxie, Mesprit, Regirock, and Milotic.

 

[6tennis]

update on some 'council' decisions:

mamoswine: remaining A. this was actually at A- as some people have pointed out. i was actually supposed to move it to A a while ago. but, some people were making arguments for A+, and the majority of us agreed A is fine. while its stabs cover a whole lot of mons, its still easily checked by a lot of things like the mon im about to mention next.

cresselia: moving up to A+. great mon, does a lot of good things consistently and checks a lot of top threats.

serperior: remaining A. it has some hard stops, but it still does what it does fairly well, reflecting and getting more boosts on kang/chomp/etc is nice, being able to spread para on a wider range of mons is also really nice.

mega manectric: remaining B+. theres a lot of good electric types that compete with manectric for a team slot, and most of them dont take a mega and are probably more effective. it does have good qualities though, B+ is a fine fit.

roserade: moving down to B-. mediocre grass type. has some cool calcs but really doesnt offer a lot and loses to lots of stuff.

And that's all for now. You can tell us your thoughts on these or bring up new nominations.


I would like to bring up one mon for discussion though. Mega Mawile for A+. Massive attack that's really difficult to switch into, strong priority, good typing, only real downside is its speed. Thoughts?

I actually agree with Mega Mawile moving to A+. Sure, it needs support, but once it has that support, it basically becomes unstoppable. Not much is taking a +2 Play Rough from this thing, and the very limited number of things that do (i.e. Cress) are probably going down to a Knock Off. Point is, this thing is very low risk, high reward. Unfortunately, once your opponent sees that you've brought P2/Cress, they can immediately start to counter it. Additionally, without the support it needs, Mega Mawile's checks increase almost tenfold.

 

[jroxas]

One of my recent pet pokes, Jellicent, should be ranked.

It's #61 on BSS right now - higher than a number of ranked mons, including some ranked as high as B+ like Altaria and Weavile. I don't think it should be too high though, as its uses are pretty exclusive and it has some severe and common weaknesses.

Cursed Body Jellicent is a great Trick Room partner for Mega Mawile that comfortably eats fire/ground moves and threatens to stall out or Will-o-Wisp their users. It also performs reasonably well against Mega Kangaskhan, especially the trendy new Secret Power users that can have a tougher time punching through its recovery. With Taunt over Trick Room, Jellicent can act as a general-purpose wall that performs well against other stally mons by combining Taunt with Cursed Body to force them into Struggle mode.

Unfortunately, it's a complete sitting duck against common metagame presences such as Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, and anything with Knock Off, limiting how high it deserves to be ranked. I'd put Jellicent at C+ (maybe B-).

P.S. I'm thinking about working on a dex entry for jelly too. :)

 

[Kori]

I would like to bring up one mon for discussion though. Mega Mawile for A+. Massive attack that's really difficult to switch into, strong priority, good typing, only real downside is its speed. Thoughts?

Have been running Mega Mawile since the very start of my ranked ladder on cart on all types of teams, including Trick Room Mega Mawile (oh the horror) and can give my thoughts on the matter.

I always run mine with Knock Off, because it is devastating on a switch in and can often just outright win you the match (goodbye toxic orb gliscor) but failing that still gets out some impressive damage, sometimes enough to get a cheeky finish with sucker punch on mons that would usually kill you. Even on non-trick room orientated teams, M-Mawile can revenge kill so many mons and providing they're running the 252HP/ATK can very easily survive a non STAB EQ.

I do not however run Swords Dance on my m-mawile and instead opted for Iron Head but this is personal preference based on my team, I also personally feel Swords Dance is worthless on non-Trick room M-Mawile teams. More often than not, it simply doesn't get time to pull it off.

One of my favourite mons to pair it with is Phys defensive RockyHelmet Gyarados, as this thing can't be touched by ground and laughs at fire damage, brutally taking care of almost all of the common checks to M-Mawile.

Although M-Mawile does seem like it needs support, it also at the same time demands counters/checks to it and can cause a lot of confusion or hesitance in the opening/loading screen. I'd say it deserves to be in A+

I also completely agree with jroxas. Jellicent is, at least in my opinion, one of the best if not the best partner with Mega Mawile as a trick room user. I'd agree to see it ranked but frankly I feel like it's better off used as a trick room mon and that can limit its purpose.

 

[Omastar68]

One of my recent pet pokes, Jellicent, should be ranked.

It's #61 on BSS right now - higher than a number of ranked mons, including some ranked as high as B+ like Altaria and Weavile. I don't think it should be too high though, as its uses are pretty exclusive and it has some severe and common weaknesses.

Cursed Body Jellicent is a great Trick Room partner for Mega Mawile that comfortably eats fire/ground moves and threatens to stall out or Will-o-Wisp their users. It also performs reasonably well against Mega Kangaskhan, especially the trendy new Secret Power users that can have a tougher time punching through its recovery. With Taunt over Trick Room, Jellicent can act as a general-purpose wall that performs well against other stally mons by combining Taunt with Cursed Body to force them into Struggle mode.

Unfortunately, it's a complete sitting duck against common metagame presences such as Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, and anything with Knock Off, limiting how high it deserves to be ranked. I'd put Jellicent at C+ (maybe B-).

P.S. I'm thinking about working on a dex entry for jelly too. :)

One of my recent pet pokes, Jellicent, should be ranked.

It's #61 on BSS right now - higher than a number of ranked mons, including some ranked as high as B+ like Altaria and Weavile. I don't think it should be too high though, as its uses are pretty exclusive and it has some severe and common weaknesses.

Cursed Body Jellicent is a great Trick Room partner for Mega Mawile that comfortably eats fire/ground moves and threatens to stall out or Will-o-Wisp their users. It also performs reasonably well against Mega Kangaskhan, especially the trendy new Secret Power users that can have a tougher time punching through its recovery. With Taunt over Trick Room, Jellicent can act as a general-purpose wall that performs well against other stally mons by combining Taunt with Cursed Body to force them into Struggle mode.

Unfortunately, it's a complete sitting duck against common metagame presences such as Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, and anything with Knock Off, limiting how high it deserves to be ranked. I'd put Jellicent at C+ (maybe B-).

P.S. I'm thinking about working on a dex entry for jelly too. :)

I agree that Jellicent should be ranked, and vat least as high as you're suggesting. Lots of pros like you mentioned, and it also has a great movepool and workable SpA. For instance;

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gengar: 165-195 (122.2 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf wouldn't do that, and wouldn't outspeed base 130s anyways. But TR or t-wave support(or Tailwind...basically anything with a T lol) fixes the Spe issue, and watch out if this monster has rain support. Even if it's taken a little from rocks or something WS is still absurd.

A more standard set with WoW gets Chomp and Kang(S rank mons, highest two in use.)

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 93-109 (44.9 - 52.6%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 83-98 (40 - 47.3%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

And that's before the WoW. Once you do that they can't do anything at all bar crits. I guess you have to watch out for possible flinch hax from Kang, tho that goes for most anything slower.

Jelli has a ton of other strange options that could keep foes on their toes. Scarf isn't really enough Spe, but it's still quite a bit, and Jelli has Trick. Considering she's super vulnerable to poison you might get stuff like Cress switching in, and that kind of stuff hates getting Scarfed. Magic Coat is another way to mess with them, and more reliable as a means to avoid Toxic for a turn than Taunt cuz Jelli is slow. Ofc that's only one turn, but their Toxic clock will be ahead of yours.

Sludge Bomb, Night Shade, Giga Drain, and Acid Armor are all other interesting moves Jelli gets. Not really sure how to use them, but they're there.

 

[average fella]

Nominating Dragalge for B- (C+?) Rank

The Blaziken counter the Trick Room archetype never asked for! Dragalge is honestly one of my favorite Pokemon to put on Trick Room teams, its very capable of doing significant damage to teams that decided to not bring their trusty Steel types with its handy STAB combination, as well as possibly being able to clean entire teams if bulky threats have been weakened. Here's a set I've used to great success on my TR teams:


Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA / 0 Spe
- Dragon Pulse
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]

A Life Orb could be run, but I usually seem to waste my LO slot somewhere along the line of teambuilding, so I often find myself resorting to Specs. LO significantly eases prediction, but misses out on Sludge Wave 2HKOing Cresselia.

This mon, while having its uses, has its fair share of headaches that this meta forces upon it. It is EXTREMELY difficult to switch in, it shares a ground weakness with its probable teammate M-Mawile, sashed Garchomp can neuter it, and it is hard walled by every steel type not named Ferrothorn. It is a free-ass switchin to Aegislash, Mawile, Heatran, Magnezone, and whatever other steels you use, all while being able to immediately threaten the poor algae dragon more than it can ever dream of threatening them. Aegislash deserved a special mention because even if you predict the switchin and HP Fire, you'll just be even more fucked over when you Weakness Policy it. If you manage to give it the support it needs, it can still put in some work, or at least make your opponent use their steels.

 

[Omastar68]

Nominating Dragalge for B- (C+?) Rank

The Blaziken counter the Trick Room archetype never asked for! Dragalge is honestly one of my favorite Pokemon to put on Trick Room teams, its very capable of doing significant damage to teams that decided to not bring their trusty Steel types with its handy STAB combination, as well as possibly being able to clean entire teams if bulky threats have been weakened. Here's a set I've used to great success on my TR teams:


Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA / 0 Spe
- Dragon Pulse
- Sludge Wave
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]

A Life Orb could be run, but I usually seem to waste my LO slot somewhere along the line of teambuilding, so I often find myself resorting to Specs. LO significantly eases prediction, but misses out on Sludge Wave 2HKOing Cresselia.

This mon, while having its uses, has its fair share of headaches that this meta forces upon it. It is EXTREMELY difficult to switch in, it shares a ground weakness with its probable teammate M-Mawile, sashed Garchomp can neuter it, and it is hard walled by every steel type not named Ferrothorn. It is a free-ass switchin to Aegislash, Mawile, Heatran, Magnezone, and whatever other steels you use, all while being able to immediately threaten the poor algae dragon more than it can ever dream of threatening them. Aegislash deserved a special mention because even if you predict the switchin and HP Fire, you'll just be even more fucked over when you Weakness Policy it. If you manage to give it the support it needs, it can still put in some work, or at least make your opponent use their steels.

I feel like Dragalge was in here earlier, mayb it got removed or something.

I think you're exaggerating how bad steels are. Yes they're not fun, but some of them fear a possible Focus Blast, and many hate Scald burns as well(while some just hate water in general.)

Aegi is tough...except Dragalge can under speed outside of TR and hit its blade form.

Still, Dragalge has lots of faults. While its STABs are very powerful with Adaptibilty, they also have bad coverage. 65/90/123 defenses would be really good if not for the fairly low HP. As is they're sorta mediocre, getting OHKOd by Mence and Kang and all that kinda stuff without a lot of defensive investment(way more than just 252 HP, and that hurts power.) CB Talon doesn't OHKO tho, so that's good.

Dragalge needs quite a but of support, either with t-Wave or TR, and can provide neither. I think somewhere in the Cs sounds right for a ranking.

 

[Psynergy]

Dragalge is pretty neat, hits harder than Latios and I recall Jibaku posting it as a counter to the Blaziken + Thundurus core. It has a solid unique typing and aside from Steels it's hard to switch into a Specs/LO Draco Meteor or Sludge Wave comfortably. Low speed and bad matchup against other Dragons, Landorus-T and Steels make it difficult to use effectively. It seems like a C+ to me though, definitely has a definable niche but has several flaws that need to be addressed in order to make effective use of it.

On the topic of C+ Pokemon though, I'm actually thinking a few things on the list right now should be moved down. Clawitzer, Reuniclus, Sharpedo/Mega Sharpedo, and Scrafty all don't really feel like B- to me. None of them are really bad but you just don't see these guys often on high rated teams, and they all definitely want team support to function well. C+ feels more accurate for all of those, maybe even C for Clawitzer since I don't see a ton of reason to use it over other Water-types.

 

[GateCreeper]

Dragalge is pretty neat, hits harder than Latios and I recall Jibaku posting it as a counter to the Blaziken + Thundurus core. It has a solid unique typing and aside from Steels it's hard to switch into a Specs/LO Draco Meteor or Sludge Wave comfortably. Low speed and bad matchup against other Dragons, Landorus-T and Steels make it difficult to use effectively. It seems like a C+ to me though, definitely has a definable niche but has several flaws that need to be addressed in order to make effective use of it.

On the topic of C+ Pokemon though, I'm actually thinking a few things on the list right now should be moved down. Clawitzer, Reuniclus, Sharpedo/Mega Sharpedo, and Scrafty all don't really feel like B- to me. None of them are really bad but you just don't see these guys often on high rated teams, and they all definitely want team support to function well. C+ feels more accurate for all of those, maybe even C for Clawitzer since I don't see a ton of reason to use it over other Water-types.

I strongly agree with the ranking for Dragalge. C+ rank is more suited for Dragalge than B- rank because of the fact that has poor matchups against faster grounds and dragons, and both of its STABs are walled by Steel types. Poison/Dragon STAB coupled with Adapatability is pretty good and advantageous against some cores, but Dragalge's flaws sadly outweigh its benefits. It definitely does require extensive attention when trying to cover its flaws, and it perfectly qualifies as a C+ ranked pokemon.

Also agree with all of those being ranked down to C+, with Clawitzer in C. Clawitzer's main niche is that it hits rather strong on the special side, which is uncommon for most water types. However, its bulk isn't the best and can't take repeated hits like it wants to, even with Assault Vest variants. Clawitzer also requires extensive team support much like Dragalge, as it can't really function on its own all that well. Never understood why it was in B- in the first place. I feel like Mega Aggron and possibly Infernape should be complied into that list as well. They don't see much usage in high rated teams either. Lucario is one to look out for if the C+ tier gets a little too big and something needs to be moved down to compensate.

 

[freekhoorn]

Dragalge is pretty neat, hits harder than Latios and I recall Jibaku posting it as a counter to the Blaziken + Thundurus core. It has a solid unique typing and aside from Steels it's hard to switch into a Specs/LO Draco Meteor or Sludge Wave comfortably. Low speed and bad matchup against other Dragons, Landorus-T and Steels make it difficult to use effectively. It seems like a C+ to me though, definitely has a definable niche but has several flaws that need to be addressed in order to make effective use of it.

On the topic of C+ Pokemon though, I'm actually thinking a few things on the list right now should be moved down. Clawitzer, Reuniclus, Sharpedo/Mega Sharpedo, and Scrafty all don't really feel like B- to me. None of them are really bad but you just don't see these guys often on high rated teams, and they all definitely want team support to function well. C+ feels more accurate for all of those, maybe even C for Clawitzer since I don't see a ton of reason to use it over other Water-types.

Apart from that reuniclus isn't used that much it is a great pokemon that beats a lot of pokemon with its immunity to passive damage with magic guard and the bulkyness combined with calm mind that beats a lot of special setup pokemon and its potential with trick room. It even checks mega gengar cause it lives a super effective shadow ball with not even maximum investment in special defense. I dont even run trick room but it is one of my MVP, maybe even my most used one and atm i have a lot of succes and sitting at a ladder rating of 1817 so i do have some right to speak i guess.

Btw, pokemon that are uncommon have the great advantage of not being prepared for which makes them more effective than pokemon not used so being not used a lot in higher teams doesnt always mean the pokemon is not good in the current meta.

 

[NOVED]

update on some mons that have been discussed

Tyranitar: staying A-

Chansey: up to B

Clawitzer: down to C

Drifblim: staying D (let's stop bringing this up for discussion)

Jellicent: B-

Dragalge: C

Reuniclus: down to C+

Sharpedo: staying B-

Scrafty: down to C+

Mega Aggron: down to C+

also Psynergy is now one of the viability guys

 

[Omastar68]

update on some mons that have been discussed

Tyranitar: staying A-

Chansey: up to B

Clawitzer: down to C

Drifblim: staying D (let's stop bringing this up for discussion)

Jellicent: B-

Dragalge: C

Reuniclus: down to C+

Sharpedo: staying B-

Scrafty: down to C+

Mega Aggron: down to C+

also Psynergy is now one of the viability guys

I support this, and I won't mention Drif ever again. I'm satisfied by Jelli and Dragalge moving up. DoNT b surprised if I bring but something else weird tho! I'm THIS close to homing Regice again, really has been working for me. If I can manage that on cart I'll definitely try for at least a D ranking, then on to other Regis and Piloswine :D

 

[6tennis]

I'd like to discuss raising Volcarona to A- rank. While it is walled by a few prominent threats, it is one of the best setup sweepers in this metagame. Quiver Dance is a phenomenal move, able to boost SpA, SpD, and Spe. These boosts allow it to sweep through a lot of teams, once a potential Volcarona check or two is removed from the equation. It has pretty decent STAB coverage that hits stuff like Psychics, Steels, and Darks for SE. Giga Drain lets it plow through the bulky waters that are so prominent in this meta. If it chooses to, it can run a Hidden Power type so as to prevent it being walled by specific threats to its sweeping potential, notable ones including Ground, Ice, and Rock. With just one boost, it gives the hyper offensive style teams that almost everyone uses a very hard time dealing with it. With two, it becomes almost unstoppable. The only issue it really has is breaking through bulkier offensive mons that are either neutral to or resist its coverage. Notable mons include Kangaskhan, Heatran, and Charizard. I don't think it being B+ does it justice. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thundurus-T is a mon that I've been thinking about suggesting raising to A-, but I'm about to go to bed and don't feel like writing something up, so I'll just start with Volcarona now.

 

[freekhoorn]

update on some mons that have been discussed

Tyranitar: staying A-

Chansey: up to B

Clawitzer: down to C

Drifblim: staying D (let's stop bringing this up for discussion)

Jellicent: B-

Dragalge: C

Reuniclus: down to C+

Sharpedo: staying B-

Scrafty: down to C+

Mega Aggron: down to C+

also Psynergy is now one of the viability guys

Why did you lower reuniclus to C-? I just discussed it was very good.

 

[NOVED]

Why did you lower reuniclus to C-? I just discussed it was very good.

It was lowered to C+, not C-. And we disagree that it's "very good". It's nice that it can set TR and still be offensive but you generally want your TR setters to be really bulky and this thing isnt. Garchomp 2hkos, aegislash destroys it, any kind of offensive talon 2hkos, it cant even live fake out + DE from kang. And if you want an offensive TR setter, P2 is way better because it doesn't just get 2hko'd by almost everything.

 

[Omastar68]

I'd like to discuss raising Volcarona to A- rank. While it is walled by a few prominent threats, it is one of the best setup sweepers in this metagame. Quiver Dance is a phenomenal move, able to boost SpA, SpD, and Spe. These boosts allow it to sweep through a lot of teams, once a potential Volcarona check or two is removed from the equation. It has pretty decent STAB coverage that hits stuff like Psychics, Steels, and Darks for SE. Giga Drain lets it plow through the bulky waters that are so prominent in this meta. If it chooses to, it can run a Hidden Power type so as to prevent it being walled by specific threats to its sweeping potential, notable ones including Ground, Ice, and Rock. With just one boost, it gives the hyper offensive style teams that almost everyone uses a very hard time dealing with it. With two, it becomes almost unstoppable. The only issue it really has is breaking through bulkier offensive mons that are either neutral to or resist its coverage. Notable mons include Kangaskhan, Heatran, and Charizard. I don't think it being B+ does it justice. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thundurus-T is a mon that I've been thinking about suggesting raising to A-, but I'm about to go to bed and don't feel like writing something up, so I'll just start with Volcarona now.

Sorry but I'd have to disagree. Volcarona does have lots of power and really good stats, but a somewhat poor STAB combination and flying weakness hold it back a lot.

It doesn't matter how much helth it has or anything. Unless Volc is sporting an intact Focus Sash or a Coba Berry, it will easily take it out. Since Talon also resists Volc's STABs it's also pretty easy for it to set up an SD on it, ensuring even Coba Berry dies hard. Talon is on plenty of teams, and any team with it will likely bring it if they see Volc unless the rest of your team is really strong vs Talon or none of theirs is weak to Volc.

But even tho Talon is a huge thing it's definitely not all. Chomp can live an unboosted hit, or anything with sash. Either way it'll main with a rock coverage move. Scarf will also outspeed, and outspeeds Volc after even a QD if Chomp is Jolly. Thund can priority t-wave, end even if Volc is Lum many Thund will have an oppurtunity to do a second t-Wave if Volc ain't boosted. A parad Volc is basically dead cuz it's so easy to revenge.

Gengar doesn't do good vs Volc, but Blaziken OHKOs with Flare Blitz. Courtesy of its typing it also takes STABs just fine.

Heatran is a big threat to Volc with a 4x resistance to bug and fire immunity. HP Ground gets past it, but HP Ice Volc or Giga Drain dies hard.

Landorus is prolly gonna be Scarf or AV, and beats Volc either way bar an unlikely Rock Slide miss. Char X can use Volc as set up fodder, and Y can prolly win too. Azumarill also wins big time, taking little from whatever Volc has bar Giga Drain.

Rotom-H resists or is imune to anything Volc is likely to have, and can win with the right set. Breloom has Sash, so it'll live anything and then kill Volc with Rock Tomb or put it to sleep. Clefable sees a decent amount of use, and can set up pretty well on Volc, or cripple with T-Wave. Porygon2 can take hits pretty well and do the same.

Going down the list, bothered plenty hat doesn't see tons of use that wins(say Mega Altaria.) The main thing that is pretty common tho is Dragonite. Without HP Ice Volc really has no chance.

So I guess I should acknowledge what Volc does right. It can set up right alongside Suicune if Cune isn't boosted to begin with and then probably win with Giga Drain if it has it, tho Roar messes this up(about 28% of Cune are Roar. Not a ton, but far from negligible. It beats Cress, tho it fears t-wave if it ain't Lum. Gegar minds it, but I think there are far better mons to deal with Gengar.

Volc does well with Rotom-W for the most part, but it's really not that great bar Giga Drain, and running that leaves it walled by lots(tho same goes for any move in the last slot.)

Volc does good against all the common fire weak mons like Ferro, Scizor, Serperior, and Mawi, but so does pretty much everything with a fire move. Volc can OHKO standard Hera even unboosted with Fire Blast, but Flamethrower is a low chance and Fiery Dance is none. Bulkier Heras that have some chance to live Fire Blast also exist, as do Scarf which outspeed and OHKO tho those are really rare.

Anyways I could go on but I've spent way too much time on this already. Basically Volc sux IMO. I'd be all for moving it down. Not too low, I mean it's stats are good and all, but a STAB combo resisted by a plain type in fire sux. Most STAB combos are at least only resisted by some dial types, at least the good ones.

 

[6tennis]

Sorry but I'd have to disagree. Volcarona does have lots of power and really good stats, but a somewhat poor STAB combination and flying weakness hold it back a lot.

It doesn't matter how much helth it has or anything. Unless Volc is sporting an intact Focus Sash or a Coba Berry, it will easily take it out. Since Talon also resists Volc's STABs it's also pretty easy for it to set up an SD on it, ensuring even Coba Berry dies hard. Talon is on plenty of teams, and any team with it will likely bring it if they see Volc unless the rest of your team is really strong vs Talon or none of theirs is weak to Volc.

But even tho Talon is a huge thing it's definitely not all. Chomp can live an unboosted hit, or anything with sash. Either way it'll main with a rock coverage move. Scarf will also outspeed, and outspeeds Volc after even a QD if Chomp is Jolly. Thund can priority t-wave, end even if Volc is Lum many Thund will have an oppurtunity to do a second t-Wave if Volc ain't boosted. A parad Volc is basically dead cuz it's so easy to revenge.

Gengar doesn't do good vs Volc, but Blaziken OHKOs with Flare Blitz. Courtesy of its typing it also takes STABs just fine.

Heatran is a big threat to Volc with a 4x resistance to bug and fire immunity. HP Ground gets past it, but HP Ice Volc or Giga Drain dies hard.

Landorus is prolly gonna be Scarf or AV, and beats Volc either way bar an unlikely Rock Slide miss. Char X can use Volc as set up fodder, and Y can prolly win too. Azumarill also wins big time, taking little from whatever Volc has bar Giga Drain.

Rotom-H resists or is imune to anything Volc is likely to have, and can win with the right set. Breloom has Sash, so it'll live anything and then kill Volc with Rock Tomb or put it to sleep. Clefable sees a decent amount of use, and can set up pretty well on Volc, or cripple with T-Wave. Porygon2 can take hits pretty well and do the same.

Going down the list, bothered plenty hat doesn't see tons of use that wins(say Mega Altaria.) The main thing that is pretty common tho is Dragonite. Without HP Ice Volc really has no chance.

So I guess I should acknowledge what Volc does right. It can set up right alongside Suicune if Cune isn't boosted to begin with and then probably win with Giga Drain if it has it, tho Roar messes this up(about 28% of Cune are Roar. Not a ton, but far from negligible. It beats Cress, tho it fears t-wave if it ain't Lum. Gegar minds it, but I think there are far better mons to deal with Gengar.

Volc does well with Rotom-W for the most part, but it's really not that great bar Giga Drain, and running that leaves it walled by lots(tho same goes for any move in the last slot.)

Volc does good against all the common fire weak mons like Ferro, Scizor, Serperior, and Mawi, but so does pretty much everything with a fire move. Volc can OHKO standard Hera even unboosted with Fire Blast, but Flamethrower is a low chance and Fiery Dance is none. Bulkier Heras that have some chance to live Fire Blast also exist, as do Scarf which outspeed and OHKO tho those are really rare.

Anyways I could go on but I've spent way too much time on this already. Basically Volc sux IMO. I'd be all for moving it down. Not too low, I mean it's stats are good and all, but a STAB combo resisted by a plain type in fire sux. Most STAB combos are at least only resisted by some dial types, at least the good ones.

"Basically Volc sux IMO"

You seem to be forgetting what it was intended to do: setup boosts and sweep the team.

Let me make a list, then.

With +1 (STAB only):
Gengar and Mega Gengar
Thundurus
Mega Mawile
Cresselia
Aegislash
Greninja
Ferrothorn
Breloom
Landorus-Therian
Hydreigon
Serperior
Heracross
Lucario

With +1 (HP/Giga Drain):
all those above and
Garchomp
Blaziken and Mega Blaziken
Salamence and Mega Salamence
Rotom-W
Suicune
Mamoswine
Azumarill
Heatran
Mega Gyarados
Hippowdon
Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar
Dragonite

With +2:
all those from +1 and
Garchomp
Kangaskhan and Mega Kangaskhan
Hippowdon
Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar
Zapdos

With +2 (HP/Giga Drain):
all those above and
Blaziken and Mega Blaziken
Salamence and Mega Salamence
Rotom-W
Suicune
Azumarill
Heatran
Dragonite

Checks at +2:
Garchomp
Blaziken and Mega Blaziken
Salamence and Mega Salamence
Rotom-W
Heatran
Dragonite

Checks at +2 (assuming correct HP/Giga Drain coverage):
Talonflame
Charizard and Mega Charizard X/Y
Porygon2
Sylveon
Rotom-H

And that's just from the Top 32. I can go on, if you'd like.