Skarmory (revamp) (QC 2/3)

CyclicCompound

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Overview
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Skarmory stands out as an exemplary defensive Defog user and physical wall. With a stellar base 140 Defense and a stellar Steel / Flying typing to back it up, Skarmory is guaranteed to find opportunities to get rid of hazards against nearly any team. Whirlwind, Taunt, Counter, and Brave Bird allow it to take on a multitude of defensive and damaging roles. Thanks to its typing, stats, and the recovery afforded by Roost, Skarmory can reliably check many prominent physical attackers, such as Gallade, Lopunny, and Mega Pinsir, to name a few. With all of these attributes, Skarmory is rarely dead weight on a team.

However, Skarmory has several shortcomings that must be addressed. It possesses relatively low HP and Special Defense stats, making it unable to stand up to most special attackers. Entry hazards, once a staple of Skarmory's gameplay, have become less impactful due to Defog. In addition, Skarmory requires a moderate degree of team support to cover its weaknesses to popular Fire- and Electric-type moves. Finally, although Skarmory has been blessed with an amazing support movepool, it now faces serious four-moveslot syndrome more than ever, and this, combined with the introduction of extremely powerful physical attackers such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Metagross, makes Skarmory that much easier for the opponent to overwhelm despite its physical walling capabilities. Lastly, Skarmory faces intense competition from Mandibuzz, one of the other popular choices for a defensive Defog user, which possesses higher overall defenses and valuable resistances to Ghost- and Dark-type moves. However, it cannot match Skarmory's startling array of resistances and immunities, and, unlike Skarmory, is weak to Stealth Rock.


Physically Defensive
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move 1: Roost
move 2: Defog
move 3: Counter / Brave Bird
move 4: Taunt / Whirlwind
ability: Sturdy
item: Shed Shell
nature: Bold / Impish
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

Moves
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Roost is the most important move Skarmory carries, allowing it to stay healthy throughout the match and continuously switch in against physical attackers to either wall them or use Defog, which is mandatory for the second moveslot as it is Skarmory's greatest contribution to most teams. Counter is a great option to better fare against physical attackers such as Bisharp and Mega Scizor, and in conjunction with Taunt, Skarmory can stop most physical attackers. On the other hand, Brave Bird allows Skarmory to deal damage without relying on the opponent using a physical attack, and can help to wear down switch-ins that don't expect to take damage from such a passive attacker. It is also Skarmory's most reliable way of checking attackers weak to Flying-type moves, such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Gallade, and Mega Lopunny. The moves in the final slot aim to deter Pokemon that try to set up on Skarmory. Whirlwind prevents boosting Pokemon such as Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar or Calm Mind Suicune from sweeping by phazing them out. On the other hand, Taunt is far more effective against defensive Pokemon such as Ferrothorn that could easily set up against Skarmory regardless of Whirlwind, and it's also the best move against many common Skarmory switch-ins including Heatran and Rotom-W, giving Skarmory's teammates a much easier time beating them. If Stealth Rock can't be fit anywhere else on the team, Skarmory may run Stealth Rock in one of the last two moveslots, but note that it is counterproductive with Defog and may put too much pressure on Skarmory to carry out multiple roles.

Set Details
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Skarmory runs full HP and Defense EVs to maximize its physical bulk, its most valuable statistical trait. An Impish nature should be used alongside Brave Bird; however, if this is not the case, a Bold nature should be used, as it lessens the damage taken from Foul Play and confusion. Shed Shell is the item of choice as Skarmory is helpless against Magnezone and Gothitelle, both of which are often used alongside Pokemon like Mega Pinsir or Scizor in order to facilitate a sweep.

Usage Tips
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Skarmory's main role is often to remove hazards, so it should generally be kept very healthy until either the opponent's hazard setter is gone or a last-ditch effort is required to remove hazards for an important play. Because Skarmory excels at stopping many physical sweepers with either Whirlwind or Counter, it is a good idea to keep Skarmory healthy if the opponent has a sweeper that can be potentially stopped by it, such as Mega Pinsir. Despite Skarmory's array of resistances, its easily-exploited weaknesses to Fire- and Electric-type moves means it must be wary of switching into many attackers even if their STAB moves are ineffective against Skarmory, such as in the case of Garchomp (which often runs Fire Blast) or Latios (which often runs Thunderbolt). As such, if keeping Skarmory alive is crucial, it is a good idea to scout for these moves by double-switching.

Team Options
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Skarmory typically functions best either on more defensive teams or as a part of a defensive core, as both provide defensive teammates that patch up its weak points. Chansey works particularly well in tandem with Skarmory, as their respective defensive stats function well together against almost any attacker not using a mixed set. Although it needs additional team support, specially defensive Heatran also works well, as it can stop many of the Fire-type attackers that try to break through Skarmory. Teammates resistant or immune to Electric-type moves are appreciated as well. Bulky Mega Charizard X and Mega Venusaur in particular stand out in this role, as both can check Rotom-W, one of Skarmory's most common switch-ins. Clefable is excellent for absorbing Electric- and Fire-type moves, as it can force out many common users of them, such as Garchomp, Latias, and Tyranitar. If Skarmory is being used as part of a defensive core on a balanced team, offensive teammates that value the ability to easily fall back on a defensive wall when forced out will appreciate Skarmory's presence, such as Latias and Mega Charizard X.


Custap Lead
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move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Spikes
move 3: Taunt / Iron Head
move 4: Brave Bird
item: Custap Berry
ability: Sturdy
nature: Hasty
evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Moves
========

Stealth Rock is immensely important this set, and in nearly all situations it will be Skarmory's best move it is forced to choose only one. Spikes is a great follow-up move to Stealth Rock, and with Custap Berry as well as its tendency to perform well against opposing leads, Skarmory will not have a difficult time setting it up. Taunt allows Skarmory to stop slower opposing leads from setting up, and also stops Defog users from eradicating the hazards Skarmory has set up. However, Iron Head is also a valuable move in this slot, as it allows Skarmory to easily OHKO Mega Diancie, who could otherwise not only stop Skarmory's hazards with Magic Bounce but also easily set up against it. Finally, Brave Bird provides a consistent and strong source of damage that not only dents switch-ins but also allows Skarmory to block Rapid Spin if it faints from recoil, and can easily grab momentum for its team.

Set Details
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Custap Berry is mandatory in the item slot, allowing Skarmory to set up at least two layers of hazards in nearly every situation, and allowing it to pull off a fast Brave Bird or Taunt if need be. Sturdy allows it to pull off this strategy reliably by preventing Skarmory from being OHKO'd by any one attack. While it may seem counter-intuitive to run Speed and Attack EVs on an inherently defensive Pokemon like Skarmory, it needs to go as fast as possible to get off hazards and Taunts against attackers before they can retaliate. Furthermore, Skarmory needs its defenses to be as low as possible so that a wider range of attacks can get it into Custap Berry activation range. Therefore, the rest of the EVs go into Attack, and a Hasty nature is used to decrease Skarmory's naturally-high Defense stat. In addition, it would be wise to make HP, Defense, and Special Defense IVs zero for the same reasons.

Usage Tips
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Team Options
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Other Options
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Leftovers and Rocky Helmet both work well on Skarmory; however, it makes playing against teams with Magnezone and Gothitelle far more difficult, and as such Shed Shell is usually the safest and best choice. A dedicated Spikes set can not only provide Spikes support but also phaze, but the vulnerable position it puts Skarmory in versus most offensive teams is highly detrimental. A specially defensive set is an option to be in a better position to Defog against special attackers, but it wastes Skarmory's bulk and is somewhat outclassed by Mandibuzz, who has much better special bulk. While Skarmory is actually a capable user of Stealth Rock, it is counterproductive to put Stealth Rock on the same set as Defog, and Skarmory's ability to remove hazards is generally more valuable than its ability to lay hazards. Drill Peck could see use over Brave Bird, but the significant decrease in power is rarely worth the lack of recoil.

Checks & Counters
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**Special Attacks**: Strong special attackers, such as Mega Charizard Y and Thundurus, can easily bring down any Skarmory set. Electric- and Fire-type attacks are also very common. Many attackers, such as Kyurem-B, carry them for coverage purposes, making it even tougher for Skarmory to stay in. In addition, many physical attackers with usable Special Attack stats will carry Fire Blast specifically for luring in and hitting Skarmory for massive damage.

**Taunt**: Skarmory has trouble getting past Pokemon with Taunt, as they prevent it from healing, phazing, and Spikes-stacking. Setup sweepers that possess Taunt to stop Skarmory are especially dangerous, such as bulky Gyarados, particularly if Skarmory is the team's primary method of dealing with them.

**Trapping Abilities**: Three users of trapping abilities, Magnezone, Gothitelle, and Wobbuffet, are particularly troublesome to Skarmory. Gothitelle and Magnezone are capable of easily KOing Skarmory with their powerful special attacks, whereas Wobbuffet, while extremely uncommon, can easily lock Taunt-less Skarmory into a useless move and provide its teammates with a valuable setup opportunity.
 
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CyclicCompound

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Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to keep my opinion paragraph separate from the OP, which will eventually be used for the full revamp.

First of all, I think we can all agree that Roost and for the most part Defog are both mandatory on Skarmory.

Personally, I think Whirlwind and Taunt are both great—I prefer Whirlwind marginally more but I don't think it's a huge deal which one's slashed first.

If Counter is used, I think that Taunt is always the best option over Whirlwind, so that might affect the slashing. I'm not a fan of Brave Bird, and I'm neutral towards Toxic (I think Skarmory generally has more important things to do). Overall I think Swamp Link's set is the best, but I'd like to hear other opinions as well.
 

Jukain

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Dice said:
skarmory:

only use a physdef spread plz

move 1: Roost
move 2: Defog
move 3: Whirlwind / Taunt
move 4: Toxic / Stealth Rock / Counter

should be the move order imo. slash rocky helmet and mention to use it if you're using stealth rock as you can't touch pinsir otherwise without hazards.
relevant to this thread, basically what i said but with a defined set of move slashes for the last slot. go with this set.

spdef ought to be discussed more i guess so leave it for now.
 

CyclicCompound

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Dice

Reasoning for Toxic being the first slash? Other than Whirlwind it's Skarm's best option against incoming Rotom-W but I feel that the amount of relevant switch-ins it doesn't hit (Heatran, Aegislash, Bisharp, opposing Skarm, etc.) kinda makes it a worse option than either SR or Counter.
 
it's not like counter makes ur matchup vs skarm / aegislash / heatran any better and bisharp doesn't switch into skarm

toxic hits a lot of things like hippo / lando / lati@s / rotomw / keld / greninja / zard-y / zard-x ETC on the switch or otherwise and i don't think counter is that useful. stealth rock on skarm should only be used if you don't have room for it on any other poke regardless
 

CyclicCompound

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Well, Bisharp WOULD switch into Skarm, considering it's a Defog user, but that's beside the point.

I'll go with your set.
 
i worded that badly. i meant under normal circumstances which doesn't revolve around defog-- standard 4 atks LO bisharp can't touch skarm.
 

CyclicCompound

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Physically Defensive set updated with full descriptions of the moves, set details, and team options.

Now on to the Specially Defensive set...

I'll ask this before and I'll ask this again, do we even need it? I've never been a huge fan of the specially defensive set but I know a lot of other people are, which was the reason why it was kept. A lot of popular special attackers that weren't really popular at the very beginning of the metagame for whatever reason (in particular Keldeo, Landorus, and Thundurus) have extremely little trouble taking down specially defensive Skarmory, and L@tias commonly runs Thunderbolt as well. Furthermore, specially defensive Skarmory can be OHKO'd (if Sturdy is broken) by +2 Bisharp Knock Off, which is kind of embarrassing and kind of ruins the point of running a physically defensive Defog user. I'm also failing to see how it outclasses Mandibuzz, who has more all-around bulk, if that's the main point of running a specially defensive spread.
 

CyclicCompound

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Okay, so it looks like there's been no opposition to removing the specially defensive set, so yay. Moving on - how does everyone feel about the Spikes set?

My opinion is that a few months ago it was good because every stall team was running Mega Venusaur-based stall, which Spikes Skarmory did very well against (outsped and Taunted Mega Venusaur, outsped and Taunted Mandibuzz/Skarmory, Taunted Heatran on the switch, etc., all while setting up Spikes). However, Stall has largely shifted towards using more offensive spreads on stuff like Mega Venusaur (such as HP Fire) and using Mega Charizard X, who is much harder for Skarmory to deal with especially if it's carrying a Fire-type move instead of Earthquake. It outspeeds Skarmory and hits it with Will-o-Wisp anyway, so that's still a major pain to deal with, and it can Roost off the damage from entry hazards if it wishes. Magic Guard Calm Mind Clefable is another Pokemon that is much more common on stall now than it was before, and Skarmory likewise has problems with that too especially considering it doesn't take any damage from Spikes.

So yeah, I don't think it's as effective anymore. The lack of Counter on it also makes it a lot more susceptible to the physical attackers that can easily lay down the pressure on it. Plus as stated for the justification in my specially defensive set rejection, there are a lot more Pokemon now that carry moves that can seriously hurt Skarmory, so it has serious trouble staying in on threats.

TL;DR: more developed metagame means spikes skarm is no longer setworthy.
 

Jukain

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yea that's probably fine, you don't really need a set for it. I've seen spikes skarm used successfully but it's really not worth it in most cases.
 
would you do steath rocks over spikes and make it worth while, or are entry hazards not that effective in general?
 

CyclicCompound

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would you do steath rocks over spikes and make it worth while, or are entry hazards not that effective in general?
The current set has Stealth Rock. The Spikes set was a dedicated hazard-laying set that aimed to shuffle opponents around while taking heavy hazard damage. The effect isn't as good with Stealth Rock, so giving the current Spikes set Stealth Rock would be even worse. Don't get me wrong, hazards are great, but attempting to shuffle opponents around isn't as effective as it used to be.

EDIT: Update time:
  • Specially Defensive set moved to OO.
  • Spikes set moved to OO.
  • Removed ridiculous crap from OO like SD + Weak Armor and Keen Eye (why did I feel I had to mention those...? Then again that was like 6 months ago)
This is now QC ready. It's already in written form since I reused a lot of stuff from the old analysis and tweaked it.
 
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Jukain

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put electric- and fire-type attacks as a bullet in checks and counters and mention keldeo specifically under special attacks.

i think rocky helmet should be the first item slash. it punishes physical attackers hitting skarmory unlike leftovers overall at least helping make it less passive. leftovers recovery isn't really that important while the residual for rocky helmet is very useful. it also punishes knock offs which is great.

qc 1/3
 
i believe rocky helmet is only necessary if your skarmory set cannot directly threaten pinsir, e.g. only having whirlwind instead of toxic or taunt + counter or whatever. as it stands, the main set can directly threaten pinsir, so i'd leave rocky helmet as a secondary slash.

2/3
 
i believe rocky helmet is only necessary if your skarmory set cannot directly threaten pinsir, e.g. only having whirlwind instead of toxic or taunt + counter or whatever.
That should be in set details imo e.g. Rocky Helmet is preferred if not running Toxic or Counter.
 

CyclicCompound

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While I'm a leftovers fan myself I think both items can work. Agreeing fully with Dice.

I'll get this updated soon.
 

Jukain

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hm sooooo i actually disagree with toxic being slashed first from a stall perspective (where you find skarmory most of the time). as far as stall is concerned counter is by far the most common move. it punishes things like knock off from bisharp, pinsir attacking a skarmory at +2, mega gyarados, and physical attackers in general much more than toxic, and puts pressure on physical attackers in general even if they know you have it/you reveal it. it also does things like let it worst-case scenario beat sd mawile 1v1 (think last mon mawile) and punish random knock offs. overall it helps in making skarm be less of fodder for attackers rather than just whirlwinding them out or whatever. i appreciate the positives of toxic, but on the whole i think counter is better.
 
It should be mentioned that if you lack a reliable Bisharp counter, counter + taunt becomes particularly helpful as it is a reliable way of defeating it. I do agree Counter should be the main slash, but it's largely ineffective against Swords Dance Mega Heracross (Rock Blast will get the KO after a few boosts.) Skarmory is oftentimes the primary counter for Mega Heracross in stall teams. It should be mentioned that Toxic is the optimal solution to at least grant a way to guarantee its demise after a few turns.
 

boltsandbombers

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It should be mentioned that if you lack a reliable Bisharp counter, counter + taunt becomes particularly helpful as it is a reliable way of defeating it. I do agree Counter should be the main slash, but it's largely ineffective against Swords Dance Mega Heracross (Rock Blast will get the KO after a few boosts.) Skarmory is oftentimes the primary counter for Mega Heracross in stall teams. It should be mentioned that Toxic is the optimal solution to at least grant a way to guarantee its demise after a few turns.
I don't agree with calling skarmory a mega Heracross counter, as it is 2hkod by close combat - therefore it cannot switch in to it and take another attack. The scenario you described is just for a 1v1 situation.
 

CyclicCompound

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I don't agree with calling skarmory a mega Heracross counter, as it is 2hkod by close combat - therefore it cannot switch in to it and take another attack. The scenario you described is just for a 1v1 situation.
It's important to note, however, that very few things actually reliably counter Mega Heracross, especially not defensively. The only two Pokemon on a typical stall team that doesn't stand a chance to be 2HKO'd by Jolly Mega Heracross are Skarmory and physically defensive Clefable, and both are capable of being 2HKO'd by Adamant Mega Heracross or by a Jolly variant if Stealth Rock is down.

Mega Heracross is just really difficult for stall teams to handle in general, so Skarmory is really as close to a counter as they come.
 

boltsandbombers

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It's important to note, however, that very few things actually reliably counter Mega Heracross, especially not defensively. The only two Pokemon on a typical stall team that doesn't stand a chance to be 2HKO'd by Jolly Mega Heracross are Skarmory and physically defensive Clefable, and both are capable of being 2HKO'd by Adamant Mega Heracross or by a Jolly variant if Stealth Rock is down.

Mega Heracross is just really difficult for stall teams to handle in general, so Skarmory is really as close to a counter as they come.
Fair enough, I can certainly agree with all the points you made. I didn't really take into account jolly mega Heracross as I always use adamant on it, but that is a viable nature to KO pokemon like adamant dragonite and such.
 
It's important to note, however, that very few things actually reliably counter Mega Heracross, especially not defensively. The only two Pokemon on a typical stall team that doesn't stand a chance to be 2HKO'd by Jolly Mega Heracross are Skarmory and physically defensive Clefable, and both are capable of being 2HKO'd by Adamant Mega Heracross or by a Jolly variant if Stealth Rock is down.

Mega Heracross is just really difficult for stall teams to handle in general, so Skarmory is really as close to a counter as they come.
I'm pretty sure adamant is the most common nature by far.
 

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