Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!

[Jaguar360]

Thankfully -ates really a huge problem in Sketchmons, but though something could be done with a couple of them I guess. There are only three -atESpeed abusers all of which are Megas and the most threatening of them (Mega Pinsir) is still checked by some of what checks him in OU (Mega Meta, Zapdos, Rotom-W). In hindsight though, I guess Mega Pinsir could be suspected or banned seeing that things like Thundurus, Mega Diancie and Mega Aero get OHKOed by +2 ESpeed after SR, which is kind of sad.

I'll admit that Sylveon and Mega Alt are difficult to deal with however. There aren't any switchins to either of them with Boomburst (except for Sp. Def Mega Venu in the case of Mega Alt) and both can still use their defensive typings to be useful outside of hitting things. Specs Sylv can literally just spam Boomburst mindlessly seeing that stuff like Ferrothorn, Sp. Def Skarm and even Mega Aggron get 2HKOed. Heatran needs to watch for HP Ground and Sp. Def Mega Venu needs to watch for Psyshock. Sylveon is probably unhealthy. Mega Alt isn't as obvious imo, but its versality makes it hard to deal with. Mega Glalie and Mega Garde are fine.

 

[Funbot28]

-ate abusers in general are just stupidly powerful in this meta. Having the option to run these powerful moves just push it to far in my eyes. Open to see a ban of Mega Pinsir, Mega Altaria and Sylveon. Setup is scary, but would have some answers in -atespeed and Tospy-Turvy Thundurus-I.

Also we should really fix the Egg move + Sketch glitch before this becomes OMotM

 

[aesf]

I feel like the meta is still a bit too "young" for testing stuff like -ates and shell smash that the meta can adapt to; if sketchmons does win OMotM, let's wait and see how people adapt and then decide whether something needs to be done.

However, there is something that I feel like really deserves to be tested.

Gothitelle seems like one of the most unhealthy things with Perish Song and Shadow Tag

Sample Set:

Gothitelle @ Focus Sash / Chesto Berry / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD or specially defensive
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Taunt
- Rest

Gothitelle is a pretty bulky mon altogether, meaning that this spread can pretty much withstand most attacks. It gets rid of anything bulky that might prevent your espeeders or set up mons from spamming espeed/setting up and getting free wins by just switching in and clicking perish song. When Gothitelle is present on the battlefield, almost any defensive mon that isn't a ghost type immediately becomes a burden to play with, forcing you to continuously double switch if the slower mon is actually of value.

Then there's the matter that it isn't completely useless against offense. In fact, if you run Focus Sash, there's a 33% chance that you can revenge kill almost anything provided you get the double protect.

On the other hand, in a metagame filled with fast and powerful pokemon, u-turn/volt switch on many defensive mons, and sleep, is Goth really as broken as it appears?

Thoughts? (even if sketchmons doesn't win OMotM people are actually playing this right now so this is probably the best time to make a decision, and if it does win this month it'll be good to have a verdict before ladder is up)

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Tbh, this is one of the metas that I wouldn't like to ban anything based on brokeness, simply because it'll be like the old STABmons, which bans a million of things. I'd agree to ban anything if it's uncompetitive (In this case, Perish Song + Shadow Tag fits in this criteria).

 

[xJownage]

Serperior is not something i'm overly worried about, but its certainly worth looking at later on.

How about a move clause? People can't spam espeed or spore or whatever else they love to slap on everything. Sure, individual threats are pretty broken, but spam is the main problem with this entire meta.

Also rain is really good in this meta.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I strongly disagree with move clause. The point of this meta is to use whatever move they want to. Having move clause would ruin the point of Sketchmons. This is the same argument when I argue about the three options in Future of STABmons thread before there is Neo STABmons (which is why I prefer option 2). Unless it's Chatter broken, I disagree with move clause.

 

[xJownage]

I strongly disagree with move clause. The point of this meta is to use whatever move they want to. Having move clause would ruin the point of Sketchmons. This is the same argument when I argue about the three options in Future of STABmons thread before there is Neo STABmons (which is why I prefer option 2). Unless it's Chatter broken, I disagree with move clause.

espeed spam basically is chatter broken. Literally. Just take things with high attack and swords dance, then spam espeed and destroy half the offensive meta, while SD powerful attackers can beat a good portion of stall too. This applies to a lot of moves, actually.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

espeed spam basically is chatter broken. Literally. Just take things with high attack and swords dance, then spam espeed and destroy half the offensive meta, while SD powerful attackers can beat a good portion of stall too. This applies to a lot of moves, actually.

There are reasons why set up moves and Extremespeed aren't banned in STABmons, BH and Inheritance, but Chatter is banned in all of those metas. It's because Chatter is uncompetitive. If those moves are Chatter broken, they would've been banned in those metas too.

 

[thesecondbest]

There are reasons why set up moves and Extremespeed aren't banned in STABmons, BH and Inheritance, but Chatter is banned in all of those metas. It's because Chatter is uncompetitive. If those moves are Chatter broken, they would've been banned in those metas too.

Ate is getting looked at in BH, and atespeed is the issue he was talking about I think as pinsir is the greatest offender. In stabmons random nu mons become good. And inheritance was never really competitive tbh. (And there is an ability clause in BH so I think a move clause is fair.)

 

[Reisuke]

Sketchmons OMoTM september!!!!!!!!!!! (Sorry for oneliner)

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

So glad this won OMoTM. Already got some sets I want to try out.

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch / Grass Knot

Standard Megagross, now with a much stronger STAB. You could also use Gear Grind if you prefer consistent power although given Metagross is quite a fatty most of the time you'll still be getting 120 BP. Use a Naive nature if you're running Grass Knot.

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Baton Pass

Use Swords Dance, and you'll be 2HKOing everything that doesn't resist your STABs. Which is nothing, bar the useless Shedinja. And if you come against something you can't break, just pass the boosts on to a teammate.

Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power Ground
- Trick

1. Click Boomburst
2. Watch stuff die
Seriously, this thing may need a look in the future: 252+ SpAtk Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 4 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 264 - 312 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

The issue I was talking about was is that from time and time again we've seen metagames revolve around: -Ate extreme speed, -Ate Boomburst, Insane set up. We already know how such a metagame will look, and the argument is always "-ate speed checks -ate speed and/or offence", in reality it's more centralising than not. As of now we are already perfectly aware of how a boom/ate/espeed/setup metagame will look, so why are we "waiting to see"?

Can we quick ban gothitelle?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-265531702

 

[xJownage]

There are reasons why set up moves and Extremespeed aren't banned in STABmons, BH and Inheritance, but Chatter is banned in all of those metas. It's because Chatter is uncompetitive. If those moves are Chatter broken, they would've been banned in those metas too.

This isn't any of thsoe metas, don't juxtapose this with any other. Espeed is much more broken in this meta since so many powerful sweepers can run it, and there are no limitations; in inheritance there was the move clause and it couldn't break stall, as well as the inability for you to slap SD/speed on anything while retaining its normal movepool; in mix-and-mega there was the mega stone clause and the presence of extreme bulk and power on almost everything. Here, none of those exist. SD/speed can sweep any offensive build when used right, especially with bulky abusers like garchomp, and since everything retains its native movepool, these teams can easily break stall as well. It is unfair to everybody to leave this in the tier.

The issue I was talking about was is that from time and time again we've seen metagames revolve around: -Ate extreme speed, -Ate Boomburst, Insane set up. We already know how such a metagame will look, and the argument is always "-ate speed checks -ate speed and/or offence", in reality it's more centralising than not. As of now we are already perfectly aware of how a boom/ate/espeed/setup metagame will look, so why are we "waiting to see"?

Can we quick ban gothitelle?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-265531702

Centralization applies to BH too. You are basically saying "lets spice it up by letting the metagame run rampant because we want to involve the slippery slope of banning" instead of just keeping what we have. Apparently since this is so much like MnM and Inheritance we should just ban the shit that was broken there because it was and didn't hold the meta together (which in inh's case, it did) because these are obviously the same metagames. You have no argument here. -Ate boomburst is good. Hardly broken. If it is, sylveon is really the only broken abuser, the rest are handled in coverage with the exception of Mega Garde which will be used exclusively as a stallbreaker anyways (i.e. not used very much). -atespeed isn't broken at all, if anything pinsir is and that's it. Glalie doesn't boost and lacks the power to break anything with bulk, and has bad typing, while altaria can't use SD and is generally pretty weak at +1. Altaria could abuse boomburst, but with no boosting and base 110 with no item, how far will that take it? Not very far.

Gothitelle can go though, there is no good reason to keep it in the tier.

 

[aesf]

I know the idea of having a council has been suggested, but I think I'll just run this metagame based on community input. Yeah, yeah, people didn't like how there wasn't a council in BH, but keep in mind: some people have been playing BH for over 2 years, and have a great understanding of the metagame. Unlike BH, Sketchmons only gained attention within the last few days, and even so, I feel like a council simply won't work with the level of experience and the fact that a metagame hardly even exists right now.

That being said, in this system, if you begin to feel like something seems unhealthy or broken in any way, just post your thoughts about it in this thread; if the vast majority of people supports it and the ban is backed up by good arguments, I'll enforce the ban. If it's a 50/50, but one side's reasoning is clearly better than the other side's, I'll give a verdict on that. (will try to be open-minded)


Current suspects: Gothitelle and Mega Pinsir

 

[pyuk]

Klefki @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpDef / 252 Def
Nature: Impish
- Dark Void/Topsy-Turvy
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
- Switcheroo

Lagging tail's another option, as prankster ignores its effect. Also, without magnet rise, klefki gets eaten alive by earthquake.

 

[Lcass4919]

honestly, from theorymon (and testing both out a bit) i just dont see any counters to pinsir. it just hits WAY too hard, and lacks checks since its coverage destroys every potential switchin. honestly, mega pinsir is very banworthy, and i intend to look more into it so i can say so with more "factual evidence"

goth however, is just broken in this meta. and yes. i point at GOTH and not perish song, sure its perish song set is complete BS to face, but ive been therymonning (again) with another stallbreaker set, that literally can set up on almost everything that lacks a way of 2hkoing it. 252/252 hp/spc def subquiver with rest and psychic. this set, allows it to tank crits, break stall down, and most importantly, set up on offensive pokemon too. once your opponent lacks dark types(or even with a dark type...lel not like its gunna switch in), goth can easily set up on any pokemon incapable of 2hkoing goth, and meanwhile substitute lets goth sponge crits, espeeds, and in return allows goth to setup and sweep a bit more leniant. what separates current gothitelle from previous goth, is now, goth has a way to boost speed, making it not only scary for stall, but offense now has to be weary of having nothing that can stop goth. sub goth also has the bonus of beating the two main chansey sets: transform, and metal burst. where transform can escape by a cleverly timed transform, and sub lets goth sponge metal bursts and rest is on the very off chance that my opponent runs STOSS, or sub isnt enough and i need reliable healing. imo, i think goth should get the axe too, but as the same, i need to test.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

This isn't any of thsoe metas, don't juxtapose this with any other. Espeed is much more broken in this meta since so many powerful sweepers can run it, and there are no limitations; in inheritance there was the move clause and it couldn't break stall, as well as the inability for you to slap SD/speed on anything while retaining its normal movepool; in mix-and-mega there was the mega stone clause and the presence of extreme bulk and power on almost everything. Here, none of those exist. SD/speed can sweep any offensive build when used right, especially with bulky abusers like garchomp, and since everything retains its native movepool, these teams can easily break stall as well. It is unfair to everybody to leave this in the tier.


Centralization applies to BH too. You are basically saying "lets spice it up by letting the metagame run rampant because we want to involve the slippery slope of banning" instead of just keeping what we have. Apparently since this is so much like MnM and Inheritance we should just ban the shit that was broken there because it was and didn't hold the meta together (which in inh's case, it did) because these are obviously the same metagames. You have no argument here. -Ate boomburst is good. Hardly broken. If it is, sylveon is really the only broken abuser, the rest are handled in coverage with the exception of Mega Garde which will be used exclusively as a stallbreaker anyways (i.e. not used very much). -atespeed isn't broken at all, if anything pinsir is and that's it. Glalie doesn't boost and lacks the power to break anything with bulk, and has bad typing, while altaria can't use SD and is generally pretty weak at +1. Altaria could abuse boomburst, but with no boosting and base 110 with no item, how far will that take it? Not very far.

Gothitelle can go though, there is no good reason to keep it in the tier.

Uh, looks like I'm drunk lol. I'm sorry. I thought by having move clause is by banning things like Extremespeed or set up moves in general. If you mean by "limiting same sketch moves to like 2 max," then I wouldn't mind.

Mega Pinsir: No Ban. I think we should give this guy a chance. It HAS the potential to be broken but as of now I don't see it. It's still has OU checks like fast Electric and Rock types and Skarmory. Yes, you an argue "It has extra move as coverage," but remember, there are more ways to handle this thing, like random King's Shield (Pinsir will most likely Espeed you because who the fk expects you to have King's Shield? You can slap random Rock moves or something (Power Gem Mega Slowbro lel). I think this is just to early. When the ladder is up, I'm sure people will find more ways to handle Mega Pinsir. Plus, Mega Altaria is more unpredictable because it can run mixed while Pinsir is mainly Physical. Give this a chance, people.

Gothitelle: Ban. Why? Because it's uncompetitive. The difference of Gothitelle and Mega Pinsir is, you can't prepare for this, while you can prepare for Mega Pinsir. In general, Shadow Tag + Perish Song lets you have control over opponent's aspect of switching. This makes any bulky pokes powerless. Unlike Trickscarf, Perish Trap allows you to trap and kill more than two pokes, as opposed to only one with Trick.

Also, Sturdinja on steroid? Lel

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Will-o-wisp
- Shadow Claw
- Baton Pass

 

[xJownage]

Focus sash is not an item you can recycle; you can only recycle natural items such as berries and herbs.

No, Pinsir is VERY broken, because it extremely overcentralizes the metagame towards king's shield and a few select mons. When zapdos can't check it, you know there is a problem - it literally 6-0s almost anything besides scarf electrics at +2.

 

[jackm]

Focus sash is not an item you can recycle; you can only recycle natural items such as berries and herbs.

As it happens, this is in fact incorrect.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-265626360

 

[xJownage]

As it happens, this is in fact incorrect.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-265626360

Welp, I'm smart. I was thinking of something else I guess...Because I remember that was true in another case. Anyways, its not competitively viable to begin with since spamming recycle isn't exactly practical besides pp and life orb stall.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Welp, I'm smart. I was thinking of something else I guess...Because I remember that was true in another case. Anyways, its not competitively viable to begin with since spamming recycle isn't exactly practical besides pp and life orb stall.

Which means that in some cases it is completely viable :/ For example, Fire Blast only has 8 PP--less than Recycle so it can be easily stalled. Add protect and you can outstall even more moves. Shedinja is still a gimmick due to its status/hazards weakness, however it just improved a lot imo, in gaining the ability to outstall some SE attacks to spread burns and pivot.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Also rain is really good in this meta.

Lol. Bro, I swear, you say this in literally every new meta.

However, I actually completely agree, tbh. Especially because of how improved politoed is. The ability to provide sustained support to its team is incredibly helpful.

 

[sin(pi)]

I'd also recommend that we keep an eye on King's Rock (specifically for that cloyster set, I doubt anything else can really abuse it except Beat up Deoxys-S)

Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power Ground
- Trick

1. Click Boomburst
2. Watch stuff die
Seriously, this thing may need a look in the future: 252+ SpAtk Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 4 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 264 - 312 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 114-136 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hidden power is redundant on PZ thanks to Adaptability - 2x resisted Boomburst hits at the equivalent of 140 BP while SE HP hits at 120. The only time it's relevant is for Rock/Steel, the only viable one being (regular) Aggron:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 195-229 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which is cleanly 2HKO'd unless it runs significant SpDef investment.

edit: it's also worth running to specifically hit something like tran/ttar, but otherwise you're better off running some support move such as toxic/twave/recover/sleep talk (though this is a tiny bit risky with trick)

 

[dsm77773]

I'd also recommend that we keep an eye on King's Rock (specifically for that cloyster set, I doubt anything else can really abuse it except Beat up Deoxys-S)

We should. I tested that set and it's as good on paper than in practice. Cloyster alone took down 3 mons by flinch haxing them in the match i had, forgot to save replay though... Also that Cloyster set is a good revenge killer, even without King's Rock, but without it, Cloyster is just bad.

EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-customgame-265742399 Proofs pinsir power and gothitelle able to beat tank serperior with luck

 

[Zipzapadam]

:O Sketchmons is OM of the Month in September! Good job! [along with hackmons 1v1]