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Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!
- Thread starter Chopin Alkaninoff
- Start date
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Goth is gone, praise emperor palpitoad.
I've been struggling with Thundurus(-T? - the one with priority) a bit, I don't have a switch in until I know its sketch move (usually dark void/oblivion wing, but I've seen webs as well). FakeSpeed Lopunny has worked decently (fakespeed has KO'd every time for me) but only because people tend to stay in. Has anyone else found a good check/counter to this?
You need to have a decent sleep absorber. Playing 5v6 sucks, starmie has been okay on an offensive team (also spins hazards which is neat, and is v fast so you can give it something like dark void or volt switch/parting shot)
I've run into a couple of SturdyCustap Memento Skarmories, usually paired with a bellyspeeder is similar. Skarm has SR/Spikes/Memento/X (I've never seen the fourth move, possible whirlwind or an actual attack). Idea is obviously get up hazards -> force a switch with memento giving sweeper a free turn to setup -> sweep.
sorry if this post sounds like a ramble, it's probably because that's what it is lol
I've been struggling with Thundurus(-T? - the one with priority) a bit, I don't have a switch in until I know its sketch move (usually dark void/oblivion wing, but I've seen webs as well). FakeSpeed Lopunny has worked decently (fakespeed has KO'd every time for me) but only because people tend to stay in. Has anyone else found a good check/counter to this?
You need to have a decent sleep absorber. Playing 5v6 sucks, starmie has been okay on an offensive team (also spins hazards which is neat, and is v fast so you can give it something like dark void or volt switch/parting shot)
I've run into a couple of SturdyCustap Memento Skarmories, usually paired with a bellyspeeder is similar. Skarm has SR/Spikes/Memento/X (I've never seen the fourth move, possible whirlwind or an actual attack). Idea is obviously get up hazards -> force a switch with memento giving sweeper a free turn to setup -> sweep.
sorry if this post sounds like a ramble, it's probably because that's what it is lol
I think FakeSpeed Lop is legal, and I would assume the other 2 are legal as well.
Yes, they all work. TI somehow made it so that egg move + Sketch move are legal together.
One gimmick that I find surprisingly works is Scarf Aurorus. It's a gimmick because it's slower and weaker than Sylveon or Porygon-Z. It may have a terrible typing, but Rock typing sometimes comes in handy because it resists Extremespeed from Normal types and Pinsir. Also, Scarf max Speed allows it outspeed up to Thundurus I (Serperior still outspeeds you so watch out). Plus, It's bulkier than both Sylveon and Porygon-Z, due to the high HP it has. A typical set would be something like this.
Aurorus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Freeze Dry
- Thunderbolt/filler
Also, among the OMotMs and LCotMs I've played, this meta is probably the hardest one to date, on par with Inheritance (it's elligible next month, so prepare guys) and probably harder than Linked which I say it's among the hardest ones. Having to prepare for multiple gods that can screw you is a pain, especially with the insane power of the pokes. Oh, and Stall IS viable in this meta, probably because of Goth ban. I think I've seen teams with Clefable, Chansey and Sableye or Mega Slowbro (iirc) and it does work, especially with moves like random Kings's Shield, Topsy Turvy, Will-o-wisp and Quiver Dance (Clefable uses this I think).
Also, Joshz, you want to make viability rankings? I'll help you.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Seriously, we need to ban espeed as a whole. Sorry I had to bring this up.
The number of viable espeed strategies is ridiculous. Belly drum / cosmic power / baton pass clefable to scrappy kangaskhan, SD flame orb ursaring, Espeed Diggersby, Mega Pinsir/Altaria/Glalie, and flat out espeed spam, all of which are HIGHLY effective against ALL playstyles. What really makes me angry is the fact that the entirety of ladder rankings are basically determined by how many espeeders you run. Literally, the high ladder is only teams that consist of 2-3 espeeders, a scarfmon, ditto, and 1-2 filler mons. It's almost impossible to win consistently in this metagame, as teambuilding skill is completely irrelevant. This is one of the few metas where stacking threats literally makes you better than players who actually think through their teams. Espeed is the root of this problem.
When espeed spam can literally 6-0 any team in this meta, including full stall, you know there is a problem. So lets see - Diggersby / Mega Pinsir / Ttar / Excadrill / Kyurem-B / Ursaring can 6-0 stall, offense, balance; absolutely anything you put in front of it - something will always be able to set up. There are dozens of other options too, a quick search of /ds swords dance, atk > 125 will show you this since any of the mons on that list can be abused with this strategy. I almost want to degrade myself by using such a team to win, but instead I just stack threats by using geotran/ditto/mega pinsir/ursaring/ttar/exca. My only loss was to a team with 3 espeeders, rotom-w, ditto, and something random. The player? He was absolute ass, but he won anyways because Espeed makes teambuilding skill irrelevant. I'm sure many of you can attest to this - thinking about your teambuilding just doesn't work in this metagame; you will find yourself overwhelmed by the powerful attackers. Espeeders are the root of this problem.
AllJokesAside I heard you wanted to do the viability rankings, however I ask you let me lead them on sunday afternoon. I don't think its smart to do them before that with the impending pinsir suspect and the extreme lack of full discovery in the meta. Whatever we do will need to be very heavily edited. I have done it before and I'm willing to do it again. Talk to me on showdown tomorrow, not here though.
The number of viable espeed strategies is ridiculous. Belly drum / cosmic power / baton pass clefable to scrappy kangaskhan, SD flame orb ursaring, Espeed Diggersby, Mega Pinsir/Altaria/Glalie, and flat out espeed spam, all of which are HIGHLY effective against ALL playstyles. What really makes me angry is the fact that the entirety of ladder rankings are basically determined by how many espeeders you run. Literally, the high ladder is only teams that consist of 2-3 espeeders, a scarfmon, ditto, and 1-2 filler mons. It's almost impossible to win consistently in this metagame, as teambuilding skill is completely irrelevant. This is one of the few metas where stacking threats literally makes you better than players who actually think through their teams. Espeed is the root of this problem.
When espeed spam can literally 6-0 any team in this meta, including full stall, you know there is a problem. So lets see - Diggersby / Mega Pinsir / Ttar / Excadrill / Kyurem-B / Ursaring can 6-0 stall, offense, balance; absolutely anything you put in front of it - something will always be able to set up. There are dozens of other options too, a quick search of /ds swords dance, atk > 125 will show you this since any of the mons on that list can be abused with this strategy. I almost want to degrade myself by using such a team to win, but instead I just stack threats by using geotran/ditto/mega pinsir/ursaring/ttar/exca. My only loss was to a team with 3 espeeders, rotom-w, ditto, and something random. The player? He was absolute ass, but he won anyways because Espeed makes teambuilding skill irrelevant. I'm sure many of you can attest to this - thinking about your teambuilding just doesn't work in this metagame; you will find yourself overwhelmed by the powerful attackers. Espeeders are the root of this problem.
AllJokesAside I heard you wanted to do the viability rankings, however I ask you let me lead them on sunday afternoon. I don't think its smart to do them before that with the impending pinsir suspect and the extreme lack of full discovery in the meta. Whatever we do will need to be very heavily edited. I have done it before and I'm willing to do it again. Talk to me on showdown tomorrow, not here though.
I don't agree with Espeed ban, but I DO agree with move clause. If the problem is Espeed spam with like, 3-4 users of it, we can limit it to 2 or something. That way, we also limit Boomburst and Shell Smash spam. I stated my reasoning of disagreeing with move ban in post #134, but I'm fine with limiting moves to control spam.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
The problem is that too many espeed users are just flat out unhealthy and hideously overcentralizing. If we were ranking things on effectiveness, Ditto would be top tier literally because it beats basically everything and counter-sweeps almost every team. Espeed has several abusers that are unhealthy; ursaring can kill almost anything with a neutral +2 burned espeed because its more powerful than +3 ekiller. Pinsir can run stone edge to handle flying types, and has no true counters at +2. It basically requires you to run scarf flying resists or ditto. There are a lot of these espeeders and I don't want to bother with banning them all; they make the meta unhealthy and it's so bad skill literally has no definition in the meta.
At first i was kinda skeptical but now i see how ridiculous espeed is. I've never found espeed too much of an issue (mainly because my team has 2 hard checks lol), after hearing what other people have to say about it it does make sense. I've seen good players demolished by espeed spam. When your team HAS to have 1 or 2 checks to something otherwise you are at a colossal disadvantage, you KNOW it's broken. I vouch for some action on the subject of espeed
This seems like the best option tbh. Other move based metas (STABmons, Inh) doesn't ban moves, but they added clauses (Chatter is an exception ofc). Espeed alone isn't that problematic, but Espeed spam is. This also helps control Shell Smash and Geomancy spam. If you worry about teams multiple recoveries, don't worry. There are many variations of recovery and healing moves (Recover, Softboiled, Heal Order, Milk Drink, Roost, Heal Bell, Aromatherapy) so this won't nerf Stall.
I'm saying this because I'm one of those victims of "Espeed spam makes teambuilding irrelevant" but I don't want any move bans (Especially Espeed, because it opens up Shell Smash/Geomancy spam). I'm okay with this, as long as it isn't move ban.
Yeah, but Stabmons, Inheritance had restrictions.
In the case of stabmons we had the restriction in the form of only normal types getting -ate, meaning stuff like Mega Pinsir and Mega Glalie didn't. And may I remind you Mega Altaria is banned in stabmons, so they obviously went through the lengthy process of suspect testing them all for us. Here everything has access to it, with very few things to handle it!
In Inheritance there was another issue - effective walls. In inheritance we gained defensive assets like Suicune, Regirock and Cresselia. This minigated its effectiveness but still allowed it to be effetive versus offence.
It's a dumb move that centralises the metagame immensely and should be banned all together so we can see a fresh start and actually see something original, you say it hinders offence but in reality I havent seen a good offence team without an ate abuser
In the case of stabmons we had the restriction in the form of only normal types getting -ate, meaning stuff like Mega Pinsir and Mega Glalie didn't. And may I remind you Mega Altaria is banned in stabmons, so they obviously went through the lengthy process of suspect testing them all for us. Here everything has access to it, with very few things to handle it!
In Inheritance there was another issue - effective walls. In inheritance we gained defensive assets like Suicune, Regirock and Cresselia. This minigated its effectiveness but still allowed it to be effetive versus offence.
It's a dumb move that centralises the metagame immensely and should be banned all together so we can see a fresh start and actually see something original, you say it hinders offence but in reality I havent seen a good offence team without an ate abuser
Ok so I want to talk about some sets I've been running or I came across:
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Spikes
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
This set can at least stall even the most powerful physical attacker with WoW + Roost (Pinsir included, it takes around 30% from Extreme Speed). Iron Head is a filler mostly, but OHKOes Mega Gardevoir after Stealth Rock and a single layer of Spikes. This set isn't bothered too much by status either as Skarm is immune to Toxic. Overall a great set able to wall almost every physical attacker in existence.
Jirachi @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 176 SpD / 80 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Sacred Fire
Sacrirachi is one of the common faces in the meta. Boasting a 100BP move with a 100% chance to burn, Sacrirachi is very difficult to switch into. Its typing also allows it to wall most of the burned stuff. While I used the pivot sample set here, it is not hard to fit Sacred Fire in almost every Jirachi set. You must be prepared for Sacrirachi to succeed.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 76 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Roost
I already posted some variants of Tankchomp. Tankchomp with recovery was suggested somewhere in this thread, and while it is great on paper, it's not that good in practice. I found my Tankchomp often 2HKOed by the ridiculous powerhouses of the meta, and while they take huge damage if they try to touch it, they will be able to break past it easily. Tankchomp won't wall anything here and it can't find any opportunity to recover, thus Roost is a wasted slot. Instead, Tankchomp is better sketching hazards, so it can find its place in hazard stack teams. Nuzzle and WoW will get you an early crippling.
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 232 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Spikes
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
This set can at least stall even the most powerful physical attacker with WoW + Roost (Pinsir included, it takes around 30% from Extreme Speed). Iron Head is a filler mostly, but OHKOes Mega Gardevoir after Stealth Rock and a single layer of Spikes. This set isn't bothered too much by status either as Skarm is immune to Toxic. Overall a great set able to wall almost every physical attacker in existence.
Jirachi @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 176 SpD / 80 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Sacred Fire
Sacrirachi is one of the common faces in the meta. Boasting a 100BP move with a 100% chance to burn, Sacrirachi is very difficult to switch into. Its typing also allows it to wall most of the burned stuff. While I used the pivot sample set here, it is not hard to fit Sacred Fire in almost every Jirachi set. You must be prepared for Sacrirachi to succeed.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 76 SpD / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Roost
I already posted some variants of Tankchomp. Tankchomp with recovery was suggested somewhere in this thread, and while it is great on paper, it's not that good in practice. I found my Tankchomp often 2HKOed by the ridiculous powerhouses of the meta, and while they take huge damage if they try to touch it, they will be able to break past it easily. Tankchomp won't wall anything here and it can't find any opportunity to recover, thus Roost is a wasted slot. Instead, Tankchomp is better sketching hazards, so it can find its place in hazard stack teams. Nuzzle and WoW will get you an early crippling.
A couple things I've been having fun with:
Initially there is Mantine.
I've tested a couple sets. First of all there is the obvious choice of giving Mantine a recovery move. With Milk Drink/Recover/Soft Boiled, Mantine is a great special wall, and is capable of shutting down many popular Geomancy sweepers like Manaphy thanks to recovery and Haze.
But my preferred set has been this:
Mantine @ Flame Orb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Trick
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic / Defog
Basically, having very high special defence and low physical defence, means a lot of people will try to bring in strong physical attackers to remove Mantine. Water Veil prevents the burn status so they can't tell that you have a Flame Orb, then you Trick it to them to cripple them for the rest of the game. The great thing about Tricking Flame Orb is that even if they have cleric support the Burn will just continue to come back. Has helped to win me quite a few games.
Another thing which I've enjoyed using is Assault Vest Thundurus-T with Oblivion Wing. Its a solid check to most special attackers that don't use set up, and electric types. My favorite thing about it however and one of the main reasons I'm using Thundurus-T in particular is that it completely destroys Mega Sceptile + Electrify.
Initially there is Mantine.
I've tested a couple sets. First of all there is the obvious choice of giving Mantine a recovery move. With Milk Drink/Recover/Soft Boiled, Mantine is a great special wall, and is capable of shutting down many popular Geomancy sweepers like Manaphy thanks to recovery and Haze.
But my preferred set has been this:
Mantine @ Flame Orb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Trick
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic / Defog
Basically, having very high special defence and low physical defence, means a lot of people will try to bring in strong physical attackers to remove Mantine. Water Veil prevents the burn status so they can't tell that you have a Flame Orb, then you Trick it to them to cripple them for the rest of the game. The great thing about Tricking Flame Orb is that even if they have cleric support the Burn will just continue to come back. Has helped to win me quite a few games.
Another thing which I've enjoyed using is Assault Vest Thundurus-T with Oblivion Wing. Its a solid check to most special attackers that don't use set up, and electric types. My favorite thing about it however and one of the main reasons I'm using Thundurus-T in particular is that it completely destroys Mega Sceptile + Electrify.
One should never forget that Mantine has the same stats as Skarmory, swapping out its physical and special stats. Water/Flying its a good defensive typing too despite the crippling Electric weakness.A couple things I've been having fun with:
Initially there is Mantine.
I've tested a couple sets. First of all there is the obvious choice of giving Mantine a recovery move. With Milk Drink/Recover/Soft Boiled, Mantine is a great special wall, and is capable of shutting down many popular Geomancy sweepers like Manaphy thanks to recovery and Haze.
But my preferred set has been this:
Mantine @ Flame Orb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Trick
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic / Defog
Basically, having very high special defence and low physical defence, means a lot of people will try to bring in strong physical attackers to remove Mantine. Water Veil prevents the burn status so they can't tell that you have a Flame Orb, then you Trick it to them to cripple them for the rest of the game. The great thing about Tricking Flame Orb is that even if they have cleric support the Burn will just continue to come back. Has helped to win me quite a few games.
Another thing which I've enjoyed using is Assault Vest Thundurus-T with Oblivion Wing. Its a solid check to most special attackers that don't use set up, and electric types. My favorite thing about it however and one of the main reasons I'm using Thundurus-T in particular is that it completely destroys Mega Sceptile + Electrify.
I personally prefer Roost as a Sketch move for Mantine. The set above it's not bad, but lacks recovery. Still, it's a very nasty surprise for physical attackers.
For Electrify Mega Sceptile, I run Mega Pinsir that can destroy it with a super-effective Aerilate Extreme Speed. Your own Mega Sceptile can work too if you catch a boost from Electrify on the switch.
And:
Thundurus @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Topsy-Turvy
- Thunder Wave
- Hidden Power Ice
- Thunderbolt
Fuck set-up. I actually don't know why people never expect Topsy-Turvy from Thundurus lol, maybe Prankster Spore on it it's too common. Thunder Wave keeps on crippling even more sweepers, rest is BoltBeam.
Scarf Boomburst Adaptability Porygon-Z hits like a truck too. Bring your Steel-types. WoW Skarmory works.
Head Smash Rock Head Aerodactyl is an underrated powerhouse (2HKOes Skarmory), and it's fast too. Resisting Flying and outspeeding Pinsir means it can counter it fairly reliably.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
The biggest problem with this is that it dies to pretty much everything relevant on offense. It's beaten by Talonflame, Ice Shard (Kyub, though I haven't seen any yet), -atespeed (it's weak to all three RIP), nearly every scarfer, it's outsped by +1 Serp so it can't come in on it, etc. I wouldn't call it unexpected, anyone who's played MnM should recognise the sets.well this isn't my idea fought someone and thought it was a good set so i decided to post this little gimmick
Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain
- Dragon Pulse / Subsitute
- Electrify
ahh yum. This thing claims souls. Electrify is unexpected and catches people off guard and you get that +1 spA boost due to lightning rod. The best thing is it outspeeds most of the meta ;] but gets stopped by scarfers ;;
I don't know how Electrify works vs stuff like toxic/roar/magic bounce, but it might be able to destroy stall.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/sketchmons-266451800
Just posting a decent replay.
GeomancyKingdra anything is really good in this meta if it can survive a hit.
Just posting a decent replay.
Geomancy
Ok can we PLEASE ban kings rock? Cloyster is just stupid with it :/
Stupid means the OHKO on Hoopa with Water Shuriken and a flinch, aka 49% chance to OHKO BEFORE SMASH. Yup we should ban King's Rock and Razor Fang.
iouk
formerly Cucumber God
In my opinion, the two pokemon that should be banned are porygonz and Thundurus, as Thundurus gets access to Oblivion Wing, making it overpowered, and Porygonz gets access to boomburst, making it overpowered as well. Maybe mega altaria as well, but I don't think it's used enough to make it overpowered.
Can we get Gothorita banned as well? It's not really any worse at the job of Perish Trapping than Gothitelle, it's just a little more bothered by losing its item and a bit slower, really.
EDIT: Example of cancer in action. Also RNG shenanigans, but the main point is Gothorita is too tough, too effective, and can't be played around in any meaningful capacity, just like Gothitelle. Banning Gothitelle without banning Gothorita isn't even staunching the bleeding, it just forces the cancer to remember Gothorita exists.
EDIT: Example of cancer in action. Also RNG shenanigans, but the main point is Gothorita is too tough, too effective, and can't be played around in any meaningful capacity, just like Gothitelle. Banning Gothitelle without banning Gothorita isn't even staunching the bleeding, it just forces the cancer to remember Gothorita exists.
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I could build one for you, it won't be any great but enough to get started with the metagame.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Darn just when I started running this:
Gothorita @ Eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Perish Song
- Reflect
- Protect
- Psychic
It's actually really bulky with Eviolite, and can actually still be as scary as Gothitelle...
Edit: When is VR coming up?