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Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!
- Thread starter Chopin Alkaninoff
- Start date
Yeah, I wouldn't really mind a thundurus suspect, it's very versatile and strong, which when combined with its access to good setup in Nasty Plot leaves it difficult to deal with defensively. Natural access to moves like taunt and thunder wave don't help either.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Or we can ban spore like I suggested earlier! Spore is the reason thundy is broken and it enables bs stategies like spore tail glow prankster baton pass on volbeat and other infuriating things. Just ban that!
I dunno, taunt nasty plot oblivion wing is pretty overwhelming too. Maybe suspect thundurus first and if other stuff is still broken by spore, try banning that too?
A set I've wanted to try out is nasty plot with nature power for a pseudo-extremespeed, albeit without +2 priority. Never got around to it though :(
A set I've wanted to try out is nasty plot with nature power for a pseudo-extremespeed, albeit without +2 priority. Never got around to it though :(
I don't mean to derail the Spore Thundurus conversation, but does anyone know some counters to E-Speed Mega Lopunny? It's been wrecking me.
As for banning Spore vs banning Thundurus outright, Thundurus could still probably abuse Dark Void if Spore were banned.
As for banning Spore vs banning Thundurus outright, Thundurus could still probably abuse Dark Void if Spore were banned.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Spore thundy actually has more counters than dark void, with grass types like serperior having an easier time against spore thundy. Thundy's versatility would warrant banning, not just the presence of prankster spore. If annoying was a factor, we would ban klefki too.
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 98-116 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 7.4% chance to 3HKO
edit; don't ban spore lol dark void is actually better.
We're not banning spore, if we ban spore we'll ban Extreme speed as well.
Yeah, almost all neutral phys def mons deal with Lop (Shedinja being the ultimate counter, can even spin block it). In terms of what offense can do, maybe a pivot landorus-t with roost?
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Sap Sipper Goodra can run an attacking Dragon Move and there isn't really anything Spore Thundurus can do to it. (Physical is probably best for this purpose, to take advantage of Sap Sipper: +1 252 Adamant Dragon Tail is 60-70% to Thundurus, where a fully invested Draco Meteor is just short of a 1HKO unless you're Life Orb or something) There's plenty of potential Rest Talkers you could give a shot, too, especially since they can Sketch Quiver Dance or Coil or whatever if they don't have natural access to setup.
Cofagrigus!
252+ Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 135-159 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And then Extreme Speed Mega Lopunny is completely helpless, or at most has Thunder Punch or something, because whether it hit you with High Jump Kick or Extreme Speed it's now got Mummy instead of Scrappy. Sketch a recovery move, and you can do this over and over and over, even if Stealth Rock is up. Most Mega Lopunny won't Sketch Knock Off or anything because, after all, they have Scrappy, right? And if you want Mega Lopunny dead you just carry a Rocky Helmet, and now it's killing itself every time you switch in and give it Mummy.
Every time I've seen Mega Alakazam, it's been Tail Glow. Psystrike is just a waste of a Sketch: 25% damage increase over Psyshock, vs more than doubling your damage? Tail Glow Psyshock still does more damage than Calm Mind Psystrike. Psystrike doesn't even help against Clefable -if Clefable is Physically Defensive Psystrike has like a 1.2% chance of the 2HKO after Leftovers, while if it's Specially Defensive Psyshock is a reliable 2HKO, so Tail Glow Mega Alakazam isn't actually more bothered by Clefable than Psystrike Mega Alakazam.
Mega Alakazam outspeeds Scarfed Pokemon starting from around 90 base Speed and below. Most Scarfers (And several Dragon Dancers) are in the vicinity of 80 Speed: if they're above 100 they mostly don't want/need the Scarf anyway. Base 50-ish and below that want to run Shift Gear (Or any other Speed doubler) to turn a slow, bulky attacker into a fast sweeper are also outsped by Mega Alakazam and not necessarily regular Alakazam.
I tried it and it's not that bad but I kept thinking that I'd be better off just using like Heart Swap/Spore/other ridiculous move Thundy can sketch.
Haven't seen many base 80 or below mons, bar Heatran, Clefable, Venusaur and Dragonite, (three are using it solely because it's a better CM, one has priority) running single stage boosting moves for speed when Geomancy (which is, in my opinion, sort of bad), Shell Smash and most commonly Shift Gear exist. Megazam isn't bad but I think in a meta where everyone can, and probably will, boost speed 2 stages or have priority, 150 speed is a little lame.
I rarely notice scarfs on the opposing team so maybe there's stuff seeing play there I don't know about.
Some thoughts.
Ditto raise: agree
Manaphy: Suicune has better bulk and I feel that Rain Dance + Rest is just wasting moveslot.
Hoopa-C: It could make a potent Quiver Dancer because of its immunity to Extremespeed. It's not bad on paper but I don't know where to rank it currently because I've never seen one (most people prefer the Unbound version than the Confined one). I need to see how it performs to rank it.
Mega Venusaur: idk what it does so no comment.
Some nominations I feel that are needed.
Diggersby to S rank. I don't know how the hell this isn't S rank right now. I'd say this is currently the best pokemon in the meta, moreso than Thundurus. Yes, Thundurus is threatening, but this thing can sweep any kind of team from HO to Stall if they're not carrying Sableye (Skarmory got destroyed by Wild Charge and I don't know why people still use that to stop Diggersby). Choice Band sets 2HKO Garchomp and Hippowdon, both full Physically Defensive. There's really no counter to this thing. You can only check it.
Mega Latias to A. Yes, this thing is very, very hard to stop if you're not carrying Prankster Topsy Turvy or Heart Swap. It has the bulk to tank Espeeds and it sweeps many teams. Beware of this, people. It can screw you really hard if you're not prepared well.
Mega Alakazam: Eh, I don't really know what it does. Yes, the Tail Glow set can sweep, but I feel you better off using bulkier poke with a Quiver Dance rather than wasting a Mega Slot that can be one shotted by Scarfers (pokes with 85 Speed or above with Scarf outspeed it, so there are quite a lot of Scarfers that can outspeed it).
Ditto raise: agree
Manaphy: Suicune has better bulk and I feel that Rain Dance + Rest is just wasting moveslot.
Hoopa-C: It could make a potent Quiver Dancer because of its immunity to Extremespeed. It's not bad on paper but I don't know where to rank it currently because I've never seen one (most people prefer the Unbound version than the Confined one). I need to see how it performs to rank it.
Mega Venusaur: idk what it does so no comment.
Some nominations I feel that are needed.
Diggersby to S rank. I don't know how the hell this isn't S rank right now. I'd say this is currently the best pokemon in the meta, moreso than Thundurus. Yes, Thundurus is threatening, but this thing can sweep any kind of team from HO to Stall if they're not carrying Sableye (Skarmory got destroyed by Wild Charge and I don't know why people still use that to stop Diggersby). Choice Band sets 2HKO Garchomp and Hippowdon, both full Physically Defensive. There's really no counter to this thing. You can only check it.
Mega Latias to A. Yes, this thing is very, very hard to stop if you're not carrying Prankster Topsy Turvy or Heart Swap. It has the bulk to tank Espeeds and it sweeps many teams. Beware of this, people. It can screw you really hard if you're not prepared well.
Not really comfortable with placing Diggersby in S right now, feel like every team is so damn well prepared for Espeed that it's not as effective, similarly to how Mega Metagross is A+ in OU
I've seen Scarfed V-Creators, as one example. You're also ignoring Quiver Dancers, and in general Special attackers run slower when it comes to boosting: there's no Special equivalent to Shift Gear. (Ignoring Geomancy, because it demands Power Herb and I agree that Geomancy is a problematic Sketch) Base 80 and below Pokemon tend to be bulkier than faster Pokemon, and some of the hardest hitting Pokemon in the game are in that range. Shift Gear Conkeldurr is a base 45, and Mega Alakazam outspeeds it while Alakazam doesn't. Guts Flame Orb Shift Gear Conkeldurr is silly powerful, and Mega Alakazam is one of the only things in the entire game that can outspeed it without boosting or Scarfing.
Mega Alakazam has flaws to be sure -and unfortunately Shift Gear tends to run more toward Mega Heracross, Garchomp, etc than toward Conkeldurr- but the Speed advantage does have some potentially crucial advantages. If nothing else, it can be nice for a team that finds itself consistently struggling against Tornadus-Therian or something.
I've got two checks to it -Skarmory and Cofagrigus- and a 'mon it can't switch in on fresh -Keldeo- and it's still a problem for my team. I can reliably stop it if it isn't running Wild Charge or Knock Off, but that's a pretty big if, and it has the obnoxious feature that Banded variants have to be handled completely differently from Swords Dance variants. It's one of the best Pokemon in the game right now -possibly the best- and even being well-prepared for it doesn't actually make it reliably manageable. I'd sooner put it into S than any of the things currently in S.
A bulkier Pokemon with Quiver Dance doesn't hit nearly as hard as Tail Glow Mega Alakazam, and in fact all the next-closest Special Attackers are actually not really any better off than Mega Alakazam in bulk and/or noticeably slower... and often very vulnerable to important forms of priority: Latios is one of the better contenders for fitting your criteria (Slower bulkier), and it's weak to Mega Glalie and Mega Altaria's Extreme Speeds, for instance. If we add the criteria that the Pokemon must have natural access to Psyshock or Secret Sword -Quiver Dance Heatran is cool, but it can't push past Chansey- then competition is even more limited. Latios remains (As does Keldeo, though it's not really all that bulky and is weak to Pixispeed and Talonflame), but Magnezone, Heatran, Chandelure, etc drop off the list. It's basically: Mega Alakazam, Latios, Keldeo, Meloetta, Exeggutor (??), Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon... In Sylveon's case Scarf Boomburst and Geomancy are overall the better builds, and indeed Mega Gardevoir (And Mega Latios, admittedly) is the only competition that shouldn't give serious consideration to Geomancy if it wants to take Mega Alakazam's place as a Special setup sweeper, rather than Quiver Dance. These all end up doing somewhere under half Mega Alakazam's damage after a Tail Glow compared to them running Quiver Dance, which is, you know, a lot.
Certainly, if you want something like Mega Alakazam without eating a Mega Slot, Latios is probably the best bet, but even then I'd stick to Tail Glow and try to have other Pokemon for clearing out the likes of Thundurus, because otherwise it just won't perform that well as a doom-y setup sweeper. Quiver Dance just doesn't get you that crazy damage output.
I've been running phys def Tangrowth for a while now, literally just for Diggersby. I'm using stall and so dedicating a slot to a single mon (although it walls a lot of other physical attackers too) isn't too bad, but it's certainly a centralising threat. I agree that it should be in S because while it's a huge threat to defence it simultaneously threatens offence hugely with the strongest ExtremeSpeed in the tier, meaning it's never dead-weight on a team. It's very similar to Thundurus in that respect, except honestly Diggersby can threaten more with a single moveset while thundurus relies on multiple sketch options to be very difficult to deal with.
To be fair, we're acting like oblivion wing and spore separately aren't broken, but come on. Taunt NP Obliving wing is hilariously good and hard to revenge kill while spore ruins offence immensely
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Diggersby is undoubtedly S-rank in effectiveness and centralization. While it may seem stoppable because teams are somewhat prepared for it, the mere fact that it centralizes the metagame so much and still has the ability to sweep at a moment's notice more than justifies a place in S-rank.
Get rid of the rank split. There is no such thing as something being "more metagame defining" than another; S-rank mons are the "faces" of the metagame and should only be reranked in extreme circumstances. If Kyube isn't a face of the metagame (it isn't), it should not be S-rank.
Mega Latias should be A+ and no less; it's just that good. It PP stalls chansey and easily busts past common defensive mons. It sets up on a huge portion of the metagame with its typing, and its boosting abilities are absurd. It's massive BST makes it incredibly effective, and it doesn't even need steel types eliminated; at +3 it OHKOs offensive/bulky tran and at +4 it OHKOs Sdef Tran, sdef Ferro, and Chansey after rocks. This thing is utterly ridiculous with its extreme bulk and power once it gets going, and it should be ranked as such.
Get rid of the rank split. There is no such thing as something being "more metagame defining" than another; S-rank mons are the "faces" of the metagame and should only be reranked in extreme circumstances. If Kyube isn't a face of the metagame (it isn't), it should not be S-rank.
Mega Latias should be A+ and no less; it's just that good. It PP stalls chansey and easily busts past common defensive mons. It sets up on a huge portion of the metagame with its typing, and its boosting abilities are absurd. It's massive BST makes it incredibly effective, and it doesn't even need steel types eliminated; at +3 it OHKOs offensive/bulky tran and at +4 it OHKOs Sdef Tran, sdef Ferro, and Chansey after rocks. This thing is utterly ridiculous with its extreme bulk and power once it gets going, and it should be ranked as such.
I personally think Mega Latias shouldn't go past A this soon. Tospy-Turvy and, more importantly, Heart Swap are vital moves that should honestly be on most teams and the opponent having those (on Sash Zam or a Prankster Mon) turns Latias into an outright liability. I know a lot of people *don't* run Swap Klefki/Sableye with a special attack, but in my opinion they should probably have started to a while back ago because Topsy Turvy offers them essentially no benefit and is only good for checking Shift Gear / BD /Shell Smash, many of whom are better checked with a t-wave/are still checked by swap.
Further, I think that as a relatively "new" set in a super volatile meta like this, people will learn to handle it pretty quickly; it's certainly a threat, but if you're losing to Latias you're probably already losing to bulky QDers with reliable recovery like Mega Venusaur, Mega Alt, etc who also have more than one set and also reliable check metagame trends, whereas Latias loses to a bunch. Stored Power is honestly pretty weak until you hit +2/+3 as well, and with it's reliance on that move specifically to hit a lot of very threatening mons (Mega Altaria comes to mind) I can't justify it being an A+ rank threat this early in my mind.
Also I think it's just bandwagon hype propping it up, it's a good set for sure but not really metagame defining. Probably one of the best choices for stall for sure, though.
Edit: On second thought it could be - I didn't realize our A+ had so many similar mons and thought it was mostly just Tran, Lop and Diggersby. I'd still hold off for at least a couple days because it doesn't just *seem* overrated to me, but is incredibly vulnerable to standard counterplay in this meta environment.
Further, I think that as a relatively "new" set in a super volatile meta like this, people will learn to handle it pretty quickly; it's certainly a threat, but if you're losing to Latias you're probably already losing to bulky QDers with reliable recovery like Mega Venusaur, Mega Alt, etc who also have more than one set and also reliable check metagame trends, whereas Latias loses to a bunch. Stored Power is honestly pretty weak until you hit +2/+3 as well, and with it's reliance on that move specifically to hit a lot of very threatening mons (Mega Altaria comes to mind) I can't justify it being an A+ rank threat this early in my mind.
Also I think it's just bandwagon hype propping it up, it's a good set for sure but not really metagame defining. Probably one of the best choices for stall for sure, though.
Edit: On second thought it could be - I didn't realize our A+ had so many similar mons and thought it was mostly just Tran, Lop and Diggersby. I'd still hold off for at least a couple days because it doesn't just *seem* overrated to me, but is incredibly vulnerable to standard counterplay in this meta environment.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
This is exactly my thoughts on it. Mega Latias is a great mon, but normally wouldn't be A+ rank material. The problem is that it matches up better with A+ mons than with A rank ones.
Yeah, rip aesf come back soon :-( and thanks for the position.
Anyways, I've seen this requested a lot and the OMOTM changes in 11 days, so I'd like everyone to give their opinion and we can get this out of here for the last week of sketchmons should it be decided broken.
Suspecting Thundurus
Please posts your opinions on whether to not ban or ban below and why you think it should or shouldn't be. A verdict will be made in a few days based on replies.
Anyways, I've seen this requested a lot and the OMOTM changes in 11 days, so I'd like everyone to give their opinion and we can get this out of here for the last week of sketchmons should it be decided broken.
Suspecting Thundurus
Please posts your opinions on whether to not ban or ban below and why you think it should or shouldn't be. A verdict will be made in a few days based on replies.
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Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Curse
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
OR
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Curse
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
What about these sets
Ferrothorn is setup bait for anything that can tank a Power Whip and a Gyro Ball, loses massive amounts of utility in running a purely offensive set that can't do jack shit without setting up first, and I'm pretty sure it loses to Taunt+NP+Tbolt+O-Wing Thundurus anyways.
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Curse
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
OR
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Curse
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
What about these sets
Goodra is easily forced out by Fairy-types and physical attackers, and both are just too common for Goodra to ever set up against an offensive team worth its salt (Just run through the S and A ranks and show me things that don't take a big chunk out of it ) (oh, and it's not doing jack shit without setting up). It's mildly helpless against stall 'mons such as Skarmory, Clefable, Quagsire, Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Chansey, Gliscor... you get the idea. Either could be justifiable on its own, but aside from hard-countering Spore and O-Wing Thunduruses (except as the last mon) and Serperior, this set won't actually be good against many teams.
Both sets outright lose to Thunduruses running Will-O-Wisp instead of Spore or Dark Void (I find Sleep to be a fairly situational status condition, honestly, by virtue of how temporary it is). Both inexplicably run Wish over instant recovery like Heal Order or Milk Drink.
Here's a Goodra I could see myself running, if I ever really needed what it provided:
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 192 Def
Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Toxic
- Heal Order
- Counter
Dragon Tail and Toxic give it options for stopping a sweep and pressuring stall, Heal Order is recovery, and Counter can net it a KO against a physical attacker that thinks it can afford to not OHKO Goodra. The Attack EVs let it break Serperior's Substitutes, while the rest go towards shoring up its unimpressive physical bulk and maximizing its HP for Counter.
Basically, Thundurus has the ability to abuse a huge toolbox of possibilities to disrupt teams, which would be fine if there was anything that could reliably disrupt Thundurus in return. It can be given a move to handle pretty much anything it wants, with a generally low possibility of retaliation.
As I write this I feel less and less genuine about it, as though I am writing it out of a habit of banning things (see my sig). Perhaps I'm just tired. I'll leave it here, but take my hype with a grain of salt.
I'm for a Thundurus-I ban, it has some cool stuff I think are semi-necessary to handle set-up sweepers (offensive Heart Swap/Spore are things I think are good for a meta like this), but so does Tornadus, and Tornadus is also missing the stuff that makes Thundy ridiculous to manage (Nasty Plot and Elec typing giving it extra resists with no additional weaknesses being the big ones). I'm not convinced Thundy is broken per se, but I am convinced the meta would be better off without it and that it's a centralizing force in a meta that is otherwise relatively decentered.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
I don't have an opinion on Thundy as of yet but I think it'd be really useful to have some replays demonstrating the kind of thing it can do. However I do think that prankster sleep is silly and should go.
Thundy itself is fast but not ridiculously so, and it doesn't have cube levels of power. It has mild 4MSS (you want Taunt/NP/Obl Wing/Tbolt to beat stall, and Twave for offense and Volt Switch would be nice for pivoting, as well as Spore to crippled your electric/ground type checks), but it does have quite a few sets it can run, and you can choose your checks and counters.
Thundy itself is fast but not ridiculously so, and it doesn't have cube levels of power. It has mild 4MSS (you want Taunt/NP/Obl Wing/Tbolt to beat stall, and Twave for offense and Volt Switch would be nice for pivoting, as well as Spore to crippled your electric/ground type checks), but it does have quite a few sets it can run, and you can choose your checks and counters.