Announcement Sketchmons vs STABmons

Which OM do you prefer?


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#26
Lots of people (mostly those who prefer sketch) are arguing the point that sketch is more creative and allows more variation. I feel like since stabmons has more limitations it actually has more of a secure metagame for want of a better way to put it. Since sketchmons you can have a pokemon that literally knows any move this gives way for so many random things to crop up which could just fuck someone over quite easily meaning that sets to counter other sets crop up often. I just don't find that as competitive as something like STAB which has more limitations. So where less creativity is, more competitive, fun and less infuriating games are had
 
#28
I just want to clear things up in regards to the historical ladder popularity of these two metagames, because some people in this thread seem a little bit confused about that.

For most of last generation (at least since late 2014, the furthest back I can find reliable stats), STABmons sat at around 1000-2000 plays per month. Towards the end of the generation, STABmons' playcount grew steadily, climbing to around 2500 for most of 2016, and around 3500-4000 in the last few months of Gen 6. To compare, Sketchmons began at around 5000 plays per month at the beginning of this generation then rapidly fell, and has been stagnating at ~1500 plays since February. TI's OP says that Sketchmons 'has done a bit better than STABmons', but this is actually not true. At the end of its life, STABmons was more than twice as popular on ladder than Sketchmons is now.

Sketchmons was OMotM in September 2015 and got 37934 plays. The OP of this thread says that Sketchmons was 'one of the most successful OMs of the Month' but this is not entirely true either. Sketchmons' activity as OMotM was above average but not exceptional; it was beaten out by Hackmons 1v1 (85409 plays) as LCotM in the very same month! Sketchmons' OMotM activity is in the same league as 350 Cup (32786, Dec 2015), Ability Unity (33443 plays, Apr 2016), and Enchanted Items (39537, Jul 2016); it is beaten handily by metas like Megamons (51161, Apr 2016) and Gods and Followers (83565, Jan 2016).

Additionally, Sketchmons was not especially popular on the forums — the thread was pretty dead for most of 2016, and it typically sat around the middle of the pack in OMotM voting. This might seem a bit irrelevant, but the point I'm trying to make is that the idea that Sketchmons was chosen over STABmons because it was a particularly popular metagame is bogus. Like UC said, Sketchmons was chosen to replace STABs because it was another move-based metagame, it filled the same niche. It was seen as a simpler, more streamlined alternative that might succeed where STABmons had failed.

My personal preference of the two is STABmons; I think it's a more predictable and thus more competitive metagame. However, I don't want to just see one replaced by the other. TI explained a plan to test prospective perma-ladders by giving them a rotational trial period here, which I think is a good idea. I would like to see STABmons trialed on this, and if it doesn't get a ladder we could consider giving Sketchmons the same treatment.

I agree entirely with UC where he says that viewing this situation as 'STABmons vs Sketchmons' is unproductive and will undoubtedly make this debate more hostile than it needs to be, as we saw in the New Direction thread last gen when this came up. If neither STABmons or Sketchmons is popular enough to justify a ladder, neither of them should have one. We don't necessarily need to have one of these two.
 

The Immortal

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#29
I just want to clear things up in regards to the historical ladder popularity of these two metagames, because some people in this thread seem a little bit confused about that.

For most of last generation (at least since late 2014, the furthest back I can find reliable stats), STABmons sat at around 1000-2000 plays per month. Towards the end of the generation, STABmons' playcount grew steadily, climbing to around 2500 for most of 2016, and around 3500-4000 in the last few months of Gen 6. To compare, Sketchmons began at around 5000 plays per month at the beginning of this generation then rapidly fell, and has been stagnating at ~1500 plays since February. TI's OP says that Sketchmons 'has done a bit better than STABmons', but this is actually not true. At the end of its life, STABmons was more than twice as popular on ladder than Sketchmons is now.
This isn't a fair comparison. I'd argue that STABmons did better at the end because its playerbase knew that the ladder was going away as it was announced very early. Another point I'd like to mention is that STABmons did so badly that it even fell below Inverse. I know what the numbers are; in my opinion Sketchmons did better.

Sketchmons was OMotM in September 2015 and got 37934 plays. The OP of this thread says that Sketchmons was 'one of the most successful OMs of the Month' but this is not entirely true either. Sketchmons' activity as OMotM was above average but not exceptional; it was beaten out by Hackmons 1v1 (85409 plays) as LCotM in the very same month! Sketchmons' OMotM activity is in the same league as 350 Cup (32786, Dec 2015), Ability Unity (33443 plays, Apr 2016), and Enchanted Items (39537, Jul 2016); it is beaten handily by metas like Megamons (51161, Apr 2016) and Gods and Followers (83565, Jan 2016).
You're conveniently excluding the fact that overall OM plays grew. Here's your own graph of that! Second, how is comparing to a 1v1 format a fair comparison? And finally, it was in the top 5 most active OMotMs. That's "one of the most successful" to me.

Additionally, Sketchmons was not especially popular on the forums — the thread was pretty dead for most of 2016, and it typically sat around the middle of the pack in OMotM voting. This might seem a bit irrelevant, but the point I'm trying to make is that the idea that Sketchmons was chosen over STABmons because it was a particularly popular metagame is bogus. Like UC said, Sketchmons was chosen to replace STABs because it was another move-based metagame, it filled the same niche. It was seen as a simpler, more streamlined alternative that might succeed where STABmons had failed.
Excluding permanent ladders, it was the 6th most posted in metagame thread. 6th out of like 200 OMs... It was not chosen just because it was a move-based OM.

My personal preference of the two is STABmons; I think it's a more predictable and thus more competitive metagame. However, I don't want to just see one replaced by the other. TI explained a plan to test prospective perma-ladders by giving them a rotational trial period here, which I think is a good idea. I would like to see STABmons trialed on this, and if it doesn't get a ladder we could consider giving Sketchmons the same treatment.
This is already the plan. I didn't mention it because it's irrelevant to the question of "which OM do you prefer".
 
#30
I don't want to argue too much about the stats bc that wasn't really the main point of my post and I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I think you've misunderstood me a bit.
This isn't a fair comparison. I'd argue that STABmons did better at the end because its playerbase knew that the ladder was going away as it was announced very early. Another point I'd like to mention is that STABmons did so badly that it even fell below Inverse. I know what the numbers are; in my opinion Sketchmons did better.
I want to clarify that my objective with talking about the ladder stats here was just to get everyone on the same page about this and correct some of the misinformation I've seen in this thread and elsewhere. I realise that it kinda looks like I was trying to call you out, but that wasn't my intention and I'm sorry if I came across that way.

STABmons plays dropped pretty significantly in late 2015 when that rules change happened to not allow Pokemon to gain both status moves and attacking moves, and this is when it dipped briefly below Inverse. After this rules change was reversed it went back up to where it was previously.

Discounting this period, STABmons was never far below Sketchmons is now, and from about mid-2015 onwards had consistently more plays than Sketchmons does. It's possible that STABmons did better because the playerbase knew the ladder was going, it's hard to know. In any case, this bit was supposed to be just a statement of facts as I percieved them, not an argument in favour of STABmons or Sketchmons. Reading over it again, I think it kinda comes across that way, which isn't what I meant.

The point of this next bit about Sketchmons' forum and OMotM activity was not to say that Sketchmons was unpopular, but rather to point out that Sketchmons was not as popular as a lot of other metagames which also could have reasonably been given a ladder.
You're conveniently excluding the fact that overall OM plays grew. Here's your own graph of that! Second, how is comparing to a 1v1 format a fair comparison? And finally, it was in the top 5 most active OMotMs. That's "one of the most successful" to me.
Overall OM plays did grow, but that graph is a little bit misleading; the large majority of that growth is from 1v1 and BH both doubling in plays. Other OMs, including OMotM, did not grow as much. In any case, that doesn't invalidate my point; what I was trying to say is that there are many other comparably popular OMotMs that were never seriously considered for a permaladder this generation. This is true even when adjusting for the growth in OMs over time.

Comparing it to Hackmons 1v1 wasn't fair, that's true and that's my bad, I didn't fully think that point through.
Excluding permanent ladders, it was the 6th most posted in metagame thread. 6th out of like 200 OMs...
I was looking more at the end of the generation, where the Sketchmons thread had about a dozen posts over the span of 6 months, 5 of them by Chopin.
It was not chosen because it was a move-based OM.
From your post in the New Directions thread last generation:
The second, based on OMotM activity and the concept, Sketchmons. It also pairs well with AAA, one is any Ability and the other is any Move.
The overall point I want to make is that I think the decision to replace STABmons with Sketchmons last gen was a bit of a silly one in hindsight (note 'in hindsight' — I'm not trying to call anyone out here, I was in favour of adding Sketchmons too), and that acting like we need to have one of either STABmons or Sketchmons is unnecessary.
This is already the plan. I didn't mention it because it's irrelevant to the question of "which OM do you prefer".
Not to be rude or anything, but if this is the case I'm not entirely sure what the point of this poll is. Can you clarify this for me?
 

The Immortal

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#31
The point is to give STABmons a second chance. Ideally, I would keep Sketchmons for the sake of stability. But at the same time, if I knew how Sketchmons would have performed then I wouldn’t have removed STABmons. The community asked for change and we responded. I think giving STABmons another chance is fair.
 

EV

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#32
Something that isn't being brought up at all is the human nature aspect. People gravitate towards the "shiny" or the new. If stabmons was a dead meta and sketchmons was the meta that would take over, sketchmons would be winning in the same way stabmons is winning the poll right now. I feel like stabmons is a meta people like more than sketch, but my previous point would still hold true. Anyway, as a player of both metas, I find sketchmons more fun and enabling for creative builders. So, despite the lopsided results already, I'm voting for sketchmons.

Editing my post to build on my point: The ultimate conclusion here is that the poll isn't reliable. Stabmons was never going to lose this poll, so it seems unfortunate to those who put effort into Sketchmons after becoming a staple meta. I don't know what to do by the way of a solution, but I feel like that needs to be said, and understood
????

You realize this exact thing happened to STABmons, right? Like, the EXACT same scenario with all of your talking points but in reverse.

What does this post accomplish?
 

The Immortal

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#33
I already told jrdn that I disagree with his post. STABmons is neither new nor shiny. If anything, people are supporting it for nostalgia sake.

If stabmons was a dead meta and sketchmons was the meta that would take over, sketchmons would be winning in the same way stabmons is winning the poll right now.
This is completely untrue. This exact situation occurred last generation and most people did not like the idea of STABmons being removed. It took a lot of convincing from my part.

I want to add that Sketchmons is being given the same opportunity as STABmons. The Sketchmons ladder was unsuccessful; we have no obligation to keep it. We're giving the community the choice to select one of these two OMs to be given a second chance. This is an equal opportunity for both OMs.
 
#34
????

You realize this exact thing happened to STABmons, right? Like, the EXACT same scenario with all of your talking points but in reverse.

What does this post accomplish?
And I would have argued the same thing for Stabmons back then
 

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#35
I voted for STABmons. After playing it for a long time and contributing to it since last gen, I am firm supporter and advocate for its re-introduction. However, I've also learned to like Sketchmons quite a bit, playing it seriously this past OMPL. This isn't to say Sketchmons is a bad metagame, and I fully support keeping it around, but I feel that STABmons deserves the chance to reach its prime again. There was once a point when it received a ton of thread activity and even if the ladder wasn't the most active to match, there was still discussion. Positive discussion at that. Having that is great for the forums and I really do feel that STABmons is the choice to go with here. This is just a small post to vouch for STABmons since everything I'd want to say has already been said, but I want my input to be, well, inputted.
 

The Immortal

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#37
The community prefers STABmons and so it will be playable on the main server of Pokémon Showdown! As I mentioned in this thread, it will be a rotational format meaning it will be ladderable every other month. Consistently good activity will promote it to a permanent ladder but the opposite will “demote” it off the main server.

Make the most of this opportunity. We know what happened to STABmons last generation. All of you that voted for it, and the rest of the OM community, actually use the ladder.
 
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