Metagame Sketchmons

As broken as this meta is, it's the most fun I've had playing an OM in a while -- and I don't normally have fun with broken OMs.

What I'm really here for is to post this dank Manaphy set. People have been complimenting it and asking about it so, what the hell, might as well make it A Thing.

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Strength Sap
- Heart Swap
- Skill Swap
- Scald

So as you can tell, this is a blanket physical and setup check and generally disruptive support mon. The function of each move should be fairly self-evident, but I'll go in-depth for the people who haven't caught on. Prankster Strength Sap is an absolutely bonkers and gives Manaphy tons of staying power, even if it's somewhat less reliable than other forms of recovery. Manaphy gets Heart Swap natively (everybody forgets this), and its application should be obvious: check setup (Swords Dance is especially fun to consume), live more hits, heal back up, click Scald. Skill Swap is pretty solid tech: most of the time, it's just something that's nice to toss out just for the sake of scouting opposing sets when you and your opponent can't really do anything to each other. It's a great way of circumventing anything that needs its ability to deal damage or retain staying power (think: that Tinted Lens user you can't wall, that Chlorophyl user you can't revenge kill, that PH Fini that you can't break), and depending on the situation, it can be the best way on hand for you to de-escalate an opposing sweeper. Scald is Scald, and -most- of the tier's Dazzling/Dark-type mons don't want to get burnt.

While I haven't tried any variations on this set, I can see Toxic, Heal Bell, or even Flash being viable over Skill Swap, depending on your team's needs. A Calm set should also work well, though I prefer Bold to do as well as possible vs. physical attackers.

Anyone else have dank sets or fun strats they wanna share?
 
Probably my favorite aaas set so far

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast

Thundy was the closest I could think of in terms of speed/power to Triage Mray in BH, with thundy i being a personal preference over therian, but both work well. He's pretty straight forward, set up plot and wreak as much havoc as possible before anti-priority tries to take him out.

 
I've loved playing AAAS this month too. What a wild meta!

Hoopa @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast

This set, obviously in Psychic Terrain, has done wonders for me. I chose Moongeist Beam for its Unaware-punishing quality, as well it being a nice Mimikyu destroyer. It is quite vulnerable to priority once the terrain is gone, but until then, it can really have a ball. It is not naturally outsped by much, but it does have to be wary of both weather speeders and Surge Surfers, which is why I paired this with Alakazam-Mega. Also, it naturally transform-proofs itself, which is nice, and its Sp. Def is pretty impressive with the seed.
 
Hey so since arena trap got banned from ou, i think it might make sense if dugtrio got unbanned. I honestly don't know how it would be useful in the meta but I also don't see how it would be broken anymore without arena trap, so it doesnt really make too much sense for it to stay banned.
 
Well, now that AAAS is out, I'll dump my teams. On the off chance it gets picked again before US/UM, they might be useful; if it happens -after- US/UM, well, you can pick and choose individual sets.

Kinda janky, matchup-dependent. Not terrible though. MVP: Aerilate Boomburst Landorus-Therian

Snorlax @ Normalium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch
- Seed Bomb

Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock
- Diamond Storm
- Parting Shot

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Def / 164 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Trick Room
- Knock Off
- Shadow Ball
- Recover

Heatran @ Chople Berry
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Tail Glow

Landorus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 52 Atk / 232 SpA / 224 Spe
Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Explosion

Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Pain Split
- Moongeist Beam
- Will-O-Wisp
The most consistent team I've made, and I love every set on it. It's good. MVP: Prankster Strength Sap Manaphy; Tinted Lens Sunsteel Strike Cobalion.

Latios @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Psychic
- Draco Meteor
- Trick

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heart Swap
- Strength Sap
- Scald
- Skill Swap

Magnezone @ Chople Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpA / 56 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Frost Breath
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt

Cobalion @ Steelium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- U-turn

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Wood Hammer
Unpleasantly matchup-dependent, but it's not terribly difficult to pilot. MVP: Technician Bonemerang Mamoswine.

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Bonemerang
- Stealth Rock

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Gravity
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Band
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Return
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Gravity
- Spikes
- U-turn

Mimikyu @ Fairium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Tail Glow
A gimmick team that relies a lot on hax and surprise value. Don't use it against the same opponent twice and you'll have a shot. Didn't get much testing on this one. MVP: ???

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sing
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Dynamic Punch

Sneasel @ King's Rock
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beat Up
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Sacred Fire

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Thousand Arrows
- Roost

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Flash
- Scald
- Heart Swap

Tyranitar @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Magearna @ Iron Plate
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
Another reasonably consistent team, this time with an emphasis on beating offense over breaking fat teams. MVP: Krookodile

Pinball Wizard (Alakazam) @ Alakazite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

Crocodile Rock (Krookodile) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Foul Play
- Thousand Arrows

Rocket Man (Celesteela) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Heavy Slam
- Parting Shot

Candle in the Wind (Marowak-Alola) @ Thick Club
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Sneak
- Stealth Rock

Island Girl (Manaphy) @ Leftovers
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Freeze-Dry
- Knock Off

Blue Eyes (Greninja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Thunder
- Spikes
Closing thought: It hasn't ended up on any of these teams but here's the best set in this meta

Dodrio @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Jump Kick
- Volt Tackle
 
Hey everyone! As some of you may know, Chopin has stepped down as leader, so as of now I will be the leader of Sketchmons. Furthermore, fardin has unfortunately decided to resign as a council member, so Jrdn has filled his space to complete our council of: Me, Official Fissure, Megazard, Jrdn and Chopin Alkaninoff. Grats Jrdn!

So now for a couple of announcements about Sketchmons itself:
Firstly, the council have unanimously voted that dugtrio should be unbanned, as arena trap has been banned from ou, and sketchmons operates under an ou banlist. This was a fairly simple decision, because as jasprose mentioned, without arena trap duggy can do none of the things that made it banworthy in the first place. Tagging The Immortal

Secondly, The council are currently discussing potentially banning/suspecting the following mons/moves, and we would be interested in hearing your thoughts on them too. Following the quite substantial addition of spectral thief to the meta, as well as the event OMPL, not much action was taken, as we wanted to see how the meta reacted post webs ban + spectral thief addition. However, now that OMPL is over and the meta has had enough time, we feel like its worth looking at what we view are the 5 most complained about mons/moves, and if any of you all have any strong opinions one way or another, please comment with reasoning.
1. Porygon-z
2. Ash-Greninja
3. Quiver Dance
4. Tapu Lele
5. Kartana

Finally, a few people have been asking about the sketch VR and when it was being updated, and I can now confirm that it is in the process of being updated, so hold tight! If you have any new sets feel free to post them here of course, but for the moment please refrain from nomming mons on the VR, as we will probably be changing them anyways. If however, even after we update it, you still thing a certain mon needs to be raised or drop, of course feel free to nom away, and try and convince Official Fissure otherwise!

Anyways, thats the end of my update message, hopefully you will enjoy my term as sketch TL, and more importantly hopefully you begin to/continue to enjoy playing the meta!
 
Last edited:
Sorry back again. Following some deliberation, the council have come to a decision on 2 of the things I previously brought up in my above post^.

Firstly: Quiver Dance
The Council have unanimously decided to ban Quiver dance. The move is just too good and unbalances the meta. Gives sweeping potential to literally any special attacker, making it practically impossible to be prepared for all of them. The ability to boost both speed, attack and bulk is quite frankly terrifying. This combined with the fact that common perpetrators included stuff like tapu lele, which with psysurge made prio revenge killing impossible made this decision fairly easy to make.

Secondly: Porygon-z:
This mon has been talked about a lot both in the thread and in places like the om room, as many people have complained that it was too broken. Well the council agree and have decided to ban porygon-z. Adaptability combined with either boomburst and specs/scarf, or a moongeist beam z-conversion set make porygon practically impossible to prep for. The damage output is just outright absurd, 2kho'ing practically the entire meta with rocks up with like boomburst. The moongeist set alone isnt banworthy, but when you pair it with the boomburst set, pz becomes incredibly ban worthy, as it can viably run either set, and if you guess wrong, you either let it set up for free, in which case its too bulky for any of your prio moves to kill anymore and you lose..... or you sack a pivotal mon in the hope that its the conversion set. I think further points have already been brought up extensively, so I wont elaborate any further. Tagging The Immortal

The council is still deliberating on:
1. Ash-Greninja
2. Kartana

We have decided against banning lele, as with the qd ban we dont think lele will be as banworthy or unhealthy for the meta. However, we have not yet made a decision on the above 2 mons, so if any of you all have any opinions please do share them (with reasoning!)
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
Sorry back again. Following some deliberation, the council have come to a decision on 2 of the things I previously brought up in my above post^.

Firstly: Quiver Dance
The Council have unanimously decided to ban Quiver dance. The move is just too good and unbalances the meta. Gives sweeping potential to literally any special attacker, making it practically impossible to be prepared for all of them. The ability to boost both speed, attack and bulk is quite frankly terrifying. This combined with the fact that common perpetrators included stuff like tapu lele, which with psysurge made prio revenge killing impossible made this decision fairly easy to make.

Secondly: Porygon-z:
This mon has been talked about a lot both in the thread and in places like the om room, as many people have complained that it was too broken. Well the council agree and have decided to ban porygon-z. Adaptability combined with either boomburst and specs/scarf, or a moongeist beam z-conversion set make porygon practically impossible to prep for. The damage output is just outright absurd, 2kho'ing practically the entire meta with rocks up with like boomburst. The moongeist set alone isnt banworthy, but when you pair it with the boomburst set, pz becomes incredibly ban worthy, as it can viably run either set, and if you guess wrong, you either let it set up for free, in which case its too bulky for any of your prio moves to kill anymore and you lose..... or you sack a pivotal mon in the hope that its the conversion set. I think further points have already been brought up extensively, so I wont elaborate any further. Tagging The Immortal

The council is still deliberating on:
1. Ash-Greninja
2. Kartana

We have decided against banning lele, as with the qd ban we dont think lele will be as banworthy or unhealthy for the meta. However, we have not yet made a decision on the above 2 mons, so if any of you all have any opinions please do share them (with reasoning!)
I'm not going to respond extensively to the Ashninja discussion because I'm not sure how I feel about it. Really fast and strong and from preview it might be regular Ninja too, but idk if it's banworthy.

Kartana however I do not feel is banworthy. It struggles to pick a move, having to choose from better Steel STAB, coverage, priority, or possibly set up (is this a thing?). The fact that it can't do everything at once combined with bad offensive typing and awful special bulk makes it, while good and threatening, not banworthy in my opinion.

I'm really happy with the council decisions that have already been made ^_^ long live sketchmons!
 
Sorry back again. Following some deliberation, the council have come to a decision on 2 of the things I previously brought up in my above post^.

Firstly: Quiver Dance
The Council have unanimously decided to ban Quiver dance. The move is just too good and unbalances the meta. Gives sweeping potential to literally any special attacker, making it practically impossible to be prepared for all of them. The ability to boost both speed, attack and bulk is quite frankly terrifying. This combined with the fact that common perpetrators included stuff like tapu lele, which with psysurge made prio revenge killing impossible made this decision fairly easy to make.

Secondly: Porygon-z:
This mon has been talked about a lot both in the thread and in places like the om room, as many people have complained that it was too broken. Well the council agree and have decided to ban porygon-z. Adaptability combined with either boomburst and specs/scarf, or a moongeist beam z-conversion set make porygon practically impossible to prep for. The damage output is just outright absurd, 2kho'ing practically the entire meta with rocks up with like boomburst. The moongeist set alone isnt banworthy, but when you pair it with the boomburst set, pz becomes incredibly ban worthy, as it can viably run either set, and if you guess wrong, you either let it set up for free, in which case its too bulky for any of your prio moves to kill anymore and you lose..... or you sack a pivotal mon in the hope that its the conversion set. I think further points have already been brought up extensively, so I wont elaborate any further. Tagging The Immortal

The council is still deliberating on:
1. Ash-Greninja
2. Kartana

We have decided against banning lele, as with the qd ban we dont think lele will be as banworthy or unhealthy for the meta. However, we have not yet made a decision on the above 2 mons, so if any of you all have any opinions please do share them (with reasoning!)
As a player with limited Sketchmons experience...

According to what have I seen, Ash-Greninja abuses something like, Water Spout, or, random coverage move that is specifically targeted on its usual checks to go through transformation... and as drampa said Greninja in general is very unpredictable due to Protean making majority of its sketched moves viable options... and I haven't seen Greninja in Sketchmons games too much in my experience (due to my ladder) so I won't comment on this.

I can confidently say Kartana is banworthy. First of all, it has array of moves it can choose to bypass its usual checks; I personally go for something like, Bolt Strike to specifically hit Celesteela and Skarmory which would otherwise be impossible to surmount, Sacred Fire to hit Steel-types less harder in exchange of an ability to spread burns for the team, or Sunsteel Strike which is significantly powerful than Smart Strike and bypasses some notable abilities like Disguise from Mimikyu. That is not to mention I run pivoting move, namely U-turn, with Kartana and switch back to Magnezone with Blue Flare.

tldr; Kartana's move choice is unpredictable; while this is same for most of the offensive 'mons in the meta, Kartana has freakin 181 attack and this means you might end up sacking something while you attempt to scout moveset. Also it has p threatening Speed tier that can harass balance / fat teams. That's p much what I think about this 'mon.

Probably not a best post but I did my best
 
Ash-Greninja Suspect Announcement


Ash-Greninja is now being suspected on the Sketchmons Ladder on PS! Ash-greninja is can be quite the scary offensive threat. Regular greninja already has a great speed tier, but with battle bond activated, it boasts a ridiculous speed tier and very high spa combined with the ability to run powerful stab in water spout. This allows it to blow away stall, balance, and offense teams if they dont have an answer. It also gets stab priority in water shuriken, allowing it to take on mons like excadrill in sand, which is among the few non-scarfed mons which can outspeed ash-ninja. Furthermore, it is hard to tell if the greninja you are facing is an ash-greninja, or a protean one, both of which have different switchins usually. This of course makes it easier to fool your opponent, and get a free battle-bond. Due to the fact that specs spout blows past so much of the meta with ease, the council have deemed Ash-Greninja suspect worthy.

Common Sets: Almost always, if you are facing an ash-greninja, it will be specs water spout, as this gives it insane natural power along with a STAB move with 150 bp without recharge. The remaining three moves are usually water shuriken, ice beam, and dark pulse, giving it powerful STAB's, priority, and ice beam as a way to take a chunk out of bulu and AV tang. However, you can also run strong coverage like blue flare, or potentially something like vswitch to lure and gain momentum.

The drawbacks with ash-greninja include being quite predictable once revealed to be ash-gren, with mons like tapu fini and AV tang being able to confidently switchin most of the time. Furthermore, its quite fragile, and therefore can be taken out by hard prio such as first impression on like mega bee or espeed on mons like awak/mmawile/mpinsir etc. However, a lot of the time ash-gren is paired with lele, so prio isnt always succesful. Finally, as it 9/10 times will run specs water spout, hazard stack can be a pretty big issue, as it cuts water spouts bp quite substantially if it has to switch out a few times.


Suspect details:

The requirements to vote are only 2600 COIL on the suspect ladder. Even for om standards, this is a pretty low requirement, so that should be a great reason to participate!
Below this you can find a chart estimating the number of battles you will need to get reqs for the corresponding gxe.

No alt name is required

Use this Sketch thread to discuss anything related to the ban, and voice your opinions, you dont need reqs to do this, you only need reqs to officially vote.

To make your vote, please comment a screenshot of your reqs and in bold write BAN or DO NOT BAN. A 60% majority will be needed for a ban.

Note that Ash-Greninja will be allowed on the ladder.
The Suspect Test will last for 2 weeks, and will end on the 29th of October (which could also potentially be the last weekend sketch will be playable on the main server!)


Tagging The Immortal
 
Last edited:

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
Ash-Greninja Suspect Announcement


Ash-Greninja is now being suspected on the Sketchmons Ladder on PS! Ash-greninja is can be quite the scary offensive threat. Regular greninja already has a great speed tier, but with battle bond activated, it boasts a ridiculous speed tier and very high spa combined with the ability to run powerful stab in water spout. This allows it to blow away stall, balance, and offense teams if they dont have an answer. It also gets stab priority in water shuriken, allowing it to take on mons like excadrill in sand, which is among the few non-scarfed mons which can outspeed ash-ninja. Furthermore, it is hard to tell if the greninja you are facing is an ash-greninja, or a protean one, both of which have different switchins usually. This of course makes it easier to fool your opponent, and get a free battle-bond. Due to the fact that specs spout blows past so much of the meta with ease, the council have deemed Ash-Greninja suspect worthy.

Common Sets: Almost always, if you are facing an ash-greninja, it will be specs water spout, as this gives it insane natural power along with a STAB move with 150 bp without recharge. The remaining three moves are usually water shuriken, ice beam, and dark pulse, giving it powerful STAB's, priority, and ice beam as a way to take a chunk out of bulu and AV tang. However, you can also run strong coverage like blue flare, or potentially something like vswitch to lure and gain momentum.

The drawbacks with ash-greninja include being quite predictable once revealed to be ash-gren, with mons like tapu fini and AV tang being able to confidently switchin most of the time. Furthermore, its quite fragile, and therefore can be taken out by hard prio such as first impression on like mega bee or espeed on mons like awak/mmawile/mpinsir etc. However, a lot of the time ash-gren is paired with lele, so prio isnt always succesful. Finally, as it 9/10 times will run specs water spout, hazard stack can be a pretty big issue, as it cuts water spouts bp quite substantially if it has to switch out a few times.


Suspect details:

The requirements to vote are only 2600 COIL on the suspect ladder. Even for om standards, this is a pretty low requirement, so that should be a great reason to participate!
Below this you can find a chart estimating the number of battles you will need to get reqs for the corresponding gxe.

No alt name is required

Use this Sketch thread to discuss anything related to the ban, and voice your opinions, you dont need reqs to do this, you only need reqs to officially vote.

To make your vote, please comment a screenshot of your reqs and in bold write BAN or DO NOT BAN. A 60% majority will be needed for a ban.

Note that Ash-Greninja will be allowed on the ladder.
The Suspect Test will last for 2 weeks, and will end on the 29th of October (which could also potentially be the last weekend sketch will be playable on the main server!)


Tagging The Immortal
Can we get a mention of Tail Glow sets here? I know that ladder stats are bad, but Tail Glow is used more than Water Spout at every level of the ladder. It's very threatening at +3 thanks in part to priority in Water Shuriken and abuses the threat of Protean pre-Ash much better. Imo this is the more threatening set and even if you don't agree it at least deserves a mention. I don't find Water Spout or miscellaneous coverage to be nearly as threatening, or indeed banworthy.
 
Can we get a mention of Tail Glow sets here? I know that ladder stats are bad, but Tail Glow is used more than Water Spout at every level of the ladder. It's very threatening at +3 thanks in part to priority in Water Shuriken and abuses the threat of Protean pre-Ash much better. Imo this is the more threatening set and even if you don't agree it at least deserves a mention. I don't find Water Spout or miscellaneous coverage to be nearly as threatening, or indeed banworthy.
well thats embarassing, ofc Tail glow is spammed af, mostly cos its powerful and super scary. Cant believe that I forgot to add that, thank you for reminding me. That should only be further cause for ash-gren to be potentially banworthy and justification for the suspect, as if you expect it to be water spout, it can turn out to be tail glow and destroy you.
 
upload_2017-10-26_16-58-35.png

This mon is broken as shit, and I think the only reason why its being ignored so much is the multitude of other broken stuff (Reg ninja, Kartana, tail Glow anything, Koko, Pinsir) that compete with it a ton for team slots. Banning ashninja wont magically balance sketchmons, and IMO its not the most broken thing in the tier, but it is broken and this is a good step forward.
Ban
 

Sylveon.

formerly darksylvion
Haha, baby exact 2600
sketch.PNG

Anyways, voting BAN as it's not only ash-ninja(which is kind of stupid by itself), Sketchmons needs to filter out some of the offensive threats in general and this seems like a positive way forward. Also ngl really happy about the increased activity on the ladder during the suspect, and hope this continues as it's time more and more people try out the meta now that it's been handled much better than before.

Also, BAN THAT ORIGAMI PIECE OF SHIT.
 

Megazard

I'll show you the life of the mind!
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
BSS Tour Champion
Council just gave me reqs so I've been messing around and got kinda close ig but w/e I'll just post now. We absolutely need to ban and i don't think that's a question here, we really just should've gone much farther with quickbans just to free up the meta more but fine whatever let's do this the old fashioned way. Can't see the need to post reasoning when the only do not ban people haven't even bothered justifying why they're making the edgier call, but might post more if a debate or something were to actually happen.
 
Well if you really want to know, I don't think Ash-Greninja is really broken. Before going Ash it has middling stats, and its typing affords it no resistances to any kind of viable Extreme Speed user. It ends up being not all that unpredictable because, quite frankly, it's always gonna be a Sp attacker since if it goes physical it is forced to run either Waterfall (if it picks Knock Off) or Night Slash (if it picks something like Crabhammer), and Water Shuriken being special just encourages it even more to be special. Tail Glow sets (which I personally have never seen) may be a problem because Tail Glow is an OP move, not because it is on Gren. Water Spout puts it in an even worse position against Extreme Speed users, since it becomes piss weak when Greninja gets damaged. And it isn't hard to damage Greninja.
I'm WAY more worried about Kartana, but this isn't the time to discuss this guy. Ashninja should stay imo.
 
Well if you really want to know, I don't think Ash-Greninja is really broken. Before going Ash it has middling stats, and its typing affords it no resistances to any kind of viable Extreme Speed user. It ends up being not all that unpredictable because, quite frankly, it's always gonna be a Sp attacker since if it goes physical it is forced to run either Waterfall (if it picks Knock Off) or Night Slash (if it picks something like Crabhammer), and Water Shuriken being special just encourages it even more to be special. Tail Glow sets (which I personally have never seen) may be a problem because Tail Glow is an OP move, not because it is on Gren. Water Spout puts it in an even worse position against Extreme Speed users, since it becomes piss weak when Greninja gets damaged. And it isn't hard to damage Greninja.
I'm WAY more worried about Kartana, but this isn't the time to discuss this guy. Ashninja should stay imo.
Ash greninaj being forces to be special in the the same way that porygon z was; this is so good why would you want anything else. It's disengenous to pretend thats a disadvantage any more than Mega Metagross being physical was; mixed attacking is nice for unpredictability but if you lack options for that in sketchmons you have different issues.


252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 227-268 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 191-225 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 246-291 (86.3 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

The only espeed users that check Greninja (altho yes, plenty can rk weakened ones) are +dmg item diggersby and the rare alolan golem, to say nothing of how they obviously can't switch in
 
with all the stupid stuff allowed, idt ninja is broken atm. Maybe if more stuff were banned before starting this suspect, it would've deserved the ban for sure... but since u guys prioritized it before the others like kart, koko and a few other, I would vote no ban if I bothered to get reqs
 
Ash greninaj being forces to be special in the the same way that porygon z was; this is so good why would you want anything else. It's disengenous to pretend thats a disadvantage any more than Mega Metagross being physical was; mixed attacking is nice for unpredictability but if you lack options for that in sketchmons you have different issues.


252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 227-268 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 191-225 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 246-291 (86.3 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

The only espeed users that check Greninja (altho yes, plenty can rk weakened ones) are +dmg item diggersby and the rare alolan golem, to say nothing of how they obviously can't switch in
idk man 3 out of the 5 mons you've listed in the calcs don't get STAB on Extreme Speed, so their not OHKOing isn't anything out of the ordinary. But they do get pretty close, in some cases - which highlights Greninja's absolute frailty. I'm not using its frailty as an excuse for its brokenness or lack thereof - many frail pokemon are broken, that's not the point. The point is that Ash-Gren's most threatening set, which is Water Spout, gets mangled by Extreme Speed users. By most priority, in fact - and once Greninja's HP is lowered, Water Spout becomes useless.

Ash-Greninja is very good, and may even be broken - but I don't think it's fair to ban it now, when there are more broken things roaming around. ffs Kartana should've been banned long ago, nothing with 181 base attack, decent speed and great defensive typing should be able to use moves as strong as it can run in this meta. Also worth noting that Kartana resists all the relevant Extreme Speed users, and most less relevant ones too (such as Mega Altaria and Alolan Golem)
 

Megazard

I'll show you the life of the mind!
is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
BSS Tour Champion
Ok both Isotonex's post and Cute Charm Clefable's right above me speak to a significant misunderstanding of how suspecting something works. We don't not ban things because it keeps other things in check or because it might not be quite as bad as something else. If Kartana is worse than Ash Ninja (I agree that it is and think both ought to have been quickbanned along with Quiver Dance but that's not the point) then we can still ban ash ninja and deal with kartana later. So frankly "i wouldn't vote ban because other things are in the tier" is completely absurd. As for the other actually legitmate points brought up by Cute Charm Clefable, yes I agree that espeed users all mess with ninja but frankly when you play with it or face it it's just not that simple. Ash ninja finds an annoying amount of switchin/double opportunities and is almost guaranteed a kill every time it comes in. Check or no check, that's significant. It doesn't automatically mean broke, but it is quite significant. Bringing up physical sets is absurd and irrelevant, not seeing tail glow is frankly just because of a flawed suspect system and we really shouldnt have had a public test, but I would encourage anyone citing lack of experience to go out and challenge actual other people in the OM room who might be mildly familiar with sketchmons (sketch players is too strong a phrase) to get more experience with dealing with ninja. Really the original DNB post by cute charm clefable sounds like it just lacks experience actually facing this mon or perhaps only faced greninja with one team which was the only one used for the whole reqs run and had a very good matchup versus it. Anyway my point is that yes, Kartana is absolutely stupid and more broken and I'm mortified we didn't quickban it, but stop pretending that's an excuse not to ban ninja please.