Metagame Sketchmons

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
i played briefly and kart was no issue at all because i had the based core of parting shot pex and u-turn tang. Now, the question is, are they splashable enough to beat stuff other than kart or is kart overcentralizing? Anyways it's too late for me to get reqs bc ladder is sparse and i haven't run into any ninjas anyway so i have no idea if its banworthy or not. But tail glow is pretty gross so i can believe that ninja is op. Kart is damn strong and the setup sets are scary, but then it still has the issue of shitty coverage. some people i saw run v-create though, so maybe kart is busted. all i know is i didnt have issues with my particular team bc i am attracted to regen pivots in this and aaa
 
I've spent the suspect test playing with teams I made and forgot about months ago. I had mixed results...but good thing I'm on the council so the results don't matter!

Ban. It's too strong for the tier, with sets like Tail Glow and choice specs dominating teams. Not to mention you don't know if its ash gren or protean gren at first glance, which makes it all the more difficult to handle.
 
I don't play much so feel free to point out where I'm wrong etc. n_n

Completely agree with Zard and QT. I agree Kartana is more busted than Gren simply due to the plethora of incredible physical moves that allow it to beat it's previous counters. Moves like V-create, Bolt Strike, Precipice Blades, etc dick balance, DD destroys offense, Scarf is also terrifying with potential literally any move with base power above 100 coming from a pokemon with 181 base attack. I do think this should get quickbanned despite people disagreeing however we're here about Gren.

Gren in my eyes is very similar to Porygon-Z. Every single reason as to why PZ was banned can be said equally about Gren. You don't want it to set up a tail glow in this case cause that's stupid scary but if you stay in fearing that and it's specs you die not to mention the already lack of switch ins regardless. Granted this can be said for other pokemon however there's too many mindgames. Is it Protean, is it specs, is it some random coverage and blows you back, is it tail glow? Yes there are still issues in the tier, but getting Ash-Gren out allows much more flexibility in the meta and gets rid of a frankly broken pokemon.
 
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Due to the ladder being unfortunately quite inactive, I have decided to reduce reqs to 2500 COIL. Furthermore, in the daily tournament in the other metas room on PS!, the 2 finalists of the sketchmons daily tomorrow will be given reqs.

Voting ends by the end of the day tomorrow, so a verdict on the fate of ash-greninja will be announced shortly after. If you are unhappy with the current way the vote is heading towards, have a go at getting reqs if you havent already!
 
Due to the ladder being unfortunately quite inactive, I have decided to reduce reqs to 2500 COIL. Furthermore, in the daily tournament in the other metas room on PS!, the 2 finalists of the sketchmons daily tomorrow will be given reqs.

Voting ends by the end of the day tomorrow, so a verdict on the fate of ash-greninja will be announced shortly after. If you are unhappy with the current way the vote is heading towards, have a go at getting reqs if you havent already!
o nice now i can be lazy

reqs <------------- look there they are!

I've thought a lot about whether or not Ash-Ninja deserves a ban, and it honestly hasn't been an easy choice for me.

My pro-ban thoughts:
I'm going to focus on Tail Glow because I think that's the most important set. Feel free to disagree / point out how I'm wrong, but please tell me why if you do.

I think that the biggest problem with Greninja is that you do not know whether it is Ash-Ninja or Protean until it has made a move. I play somewhat differently versus each of them. If it's Ash-Ninja sending out Tapu Fini is almost always the smart play, while if its Protean that is a very risky move. If you assume its one or the other you tempt fate; if it's Ash and you thought Protean it might set up Tail Glow and sweep, if it's Protean and you predicted Ash a vital part of your team might have just been removed.

Once Greninja has been Ash'd and is at +3 (if Tail Glow) most offensive mons can't revenge it. Out of mons that naturally outspeed it there is one (Mega Sceptile) that is both legal and lives +3 Water Shuriken. Priority has been discussed a lot, and boils down to if Greninja managed to avoid chip it lives most hits (run Alolan Golem guys its good I swear even if Zygarde does switch in all over it). Mons that can tank hits from it exist but aren't common, and can be beaten by coverage like Volt Switch or Ice Beam if it's not Tail Glow (or sometimes if it is).

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Volt Switch vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 206-244 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Chesnaught: 418-492 (110.2 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

not that Chesnaught is common or anything...

My Anti-Ban thoughts:
Very briefly: if Protean greninja is the reason Ash-Ninja is suspect-worthy, as it seems to me, why are we suspecting Ash-Ninja? Protean Greninja has way more versatility, and can be slapped on as an offensive check to things way more easily because it gets STAB on everything. To me, this seems like a far more pertinent ban than Ash-Ninja. I honestly haven't gotten a good answer to why Ash-Ninja is so much better than Protean besides something along the lines of "well you must not play the tier if you don't think that" which isn't really an answer but an avoidance of one.

Being Ash'd and in perfect health to prevent being KO'd by Extremespeed
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 227-268 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 191-225 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 246-291 (86.3 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 191-225 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 220-259 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 246-291 (86.3 - 102.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 386-456 (135.4 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO


as shown in the hide is not necessarily easy. I believe it was Official Fissure who was arguing that its not that difficult to achieve due to Z moves and forcing your opponent out, but Greninja still has trouble setting up in the face of anything it doesn't force out, and if the opponent decides to sack and gets a hit off you could be in trouble.

This is kinda a small point and not one that effects Greninja's functioning in the bigger picture, but Greninja has a small case of 4mss on its Tail Glow set, where it wants to run all of Tail Glow, Water Shuriken, Dark Pulse, Hydro Pump, and some form of coverage, probably Ice Meme. Without one of these moves it gets walled by something extra, and even with all of them its still walled by the common Tapu Fini. Other sets don't really have this problem to nearly as much of a degree, merely the problem of deciding which move to sketch.

Final thoughts:
I'm going to vote Ban Ash-Ninja. I believe that at least some of my misgivings come from the fact that I have been running both Golem-A and Tapu Fini for this suspect test, and I have seen much better arguments come from the pro-ban side in general. However I am not entirely certain this is right... However I do believe that Greninja as a whole is too good for the meta and if this is the way the council chooses to deal with it then I force myself to accept it.

Edit: Force is honestly too strong a word here, as while I don't necessarily like this solution it's the best one I can see that isn't complex.

FINALLY:
I disapprove of this suspect for multiple reasons. I know, as Megazard says, that this shouldn't effect how I vote, but I really think Ash-Ninja was the wrong thing to suspect. Not only do i think Protean Ninja is the bigger problem as I said above (which is relevant), but things like Mega Aerodactyl, Kartana, and Serperior seem to be more important to be suspected to me. There is also the fact that move tutors have been confirmed for USUM, which means that there is a very high likelihood of Ash-Ninja getting access to Gunk Shot, which would make it not only more broken here, but might get it banned from OU (this is pure conjecture). I really don't think this suspect was well thought out, although I respect that my opinion does not necessarily align with that of the councils, some of whom at least have been seen to say that Ash-Ninja is an "easy ban" (again something I disagree with).
 
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I totally didnt just make that suspect tour so I could get reqs without laddering, im not that corrupt
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Anyways, thought as this was my first suspect test that I created as TL, I should get reqs before voting, so yeah I vote BAN. All the points I woulda brought up have already been brought up, so I wont bore you by repeating them.

The suspect test ends tonight, so tomorrow I shall be announcing the results, along with a few other council decisions.
 
OK, well as promised, here is my announcement post-suspect test. Despite the incredibly rocky start, I was pleasantly surprised with the number of votes. As for the result, well as im sure most of you are aware of, BAN won 11-3, which is more than 60%, so ash-greninja is officially banned. Tagging The Immortal

Furthermore, while the suspect test was ongoing, the council had the chance to see how the meta had progressed following the initial quickbans (pz and qd), and we were thus able to vote on a few other mons/moves. Following this discussion, the council have decided to BAN Kartana. Points for why it should be banned have already been brought up quite numerously during this suspect test, so I wont elaborate much. Essentially, on the one hand you have monstrous coverage in vcreate/bolt strike/pblades etc, that blow past usual counters. On the other hand you have dragon dance, which boosts its speed tier past p much everything in the meta barring weather, while also boosting its already high attack even more, giving it unbelievable sweeping potential if you dont have something like mimikyu. Then you factor in the fact that it has 181 attack, and 109 speed, with in addition other viable sets such as sunsteel and espeed, which can catch you off guard and really kinda ruin you. So yeah, kartana is banned, tagging The Immortal.
 
new mons whooo


Stakataka @ Rockium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Head Smash / Diamond Storm / Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Superpower / V-Create

This is basically c+p from the OU analysis, with Head Smash > Stone Edge. You might think that Head Smash is a terrible idea on something with base 61 HP, but since Stakataka can invest in its HP it hits a decent 326.
For reference this is how much its moves do against a blank 100/100 mon.
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 361-426 (105.8 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 271-319 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you don't want to run Head Smash you can either go for Diamond Storm or just run Stone Edge and run V-Create to nail Steel types (mostly Ferrothorn now that Kart is gone) without lowering your Attack.


Blacephalon @ Firium Z / Ghostium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Tail Glow
- Taunt

Blacephalon @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick / Explosion / Will-O-Wisp
- Secret Sword

Blacephalon @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Claw
- V-create
- Explosion
- Trick

Blacephalon @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature / Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast / V-Create
- Secret Sword / Knock Off / Whatever
- Explosion / Taunt / Will-O-Wisp / Pain Split / Whatever

this set is a bit messy


Blacephalon has a ton of possible sets. It can use all three choice items, Tail Glow, go AoA, etc. It has a pretty interesting base movepool outside of being pretty barren coverage-wise, sporting Taunt, Pain Split, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Calm Mind, Magic Coat, and Explosion. I'm sure I didn't cover all the possibilities. It's been dominating in STABmons, but I don't see it being quite as good here.

EDIT:
How could I forget my good friend!

rot in hell you op mosquito thing
 
Well, since nobody seems to have mentioned is so far, how about this monster?


Lycanroc-Dusk (Papa Verlis) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Drill Run
- Accelerock
- Fire Fang

110 Spe, 117 Atk + Tough Claws and STAB Head Smash? Aw, hell yeah. Here are some calcs:
Landorus-T:
Defensive:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 235-277 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Offensive:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 322-379 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
1 252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 87-103 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Ferrothorn:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 348-412 (98.8 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Skarmory:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 252-297 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tapu Fini:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 390-459 (113.7 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Toxapex:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 246-289 (80.9 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Celesteela:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 346-408 (86.9 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO / 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Garchomp:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 231-272 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 165-194 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes

Chansey:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 586-691 (83.3 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Quagsire:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 177-209 (44.9 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Tangrowth:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 280-331 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tyranitar:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 408-481 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zygarde:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 188-222 (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Magearna:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 196-231 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Drill Run vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 280-330 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes

So long as you can hit your Head Smashes, the only things that can switch into this thing are Ferro, Impish Chomp (the classic) and Quag - but they fall as well if you can setup your hazards. Even resists such as Kartana (guaranteed 2HKO), Excadrill (0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 166-195 (45.9 - 54%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) aren't safe, and all are slower. This thing SHREDS stall and pretty much all sensible defensive mons - unless you run some of the less common Head Smash counters, such as the below.

Aggron-Mega:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aggron-Mega: 105-124 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 53.8% chance to 3HKO
(Thanks to Filter, Head Smash does more than Drill Run and Fire Fang)

Steelix-Mega:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix-Mega: 150-178 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
(Head Smash does 17% max)

Cobalion:
(Not a common set, but demonstrates how even a 4x Rock-resist with 129 base defence drops to Lycanroc's coverage moves.)
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 192-226 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Conkeldurr:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 231-272 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Groudon-Primal:
LOL - just a demonstration of this thing's power.
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Groudon-Primal: 228-268 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yanma:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Yanma: 1348-1588 (403.5 - 475.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see, this thing is monstrously destructive. SD is, of course, also an option, but this is useful for the fact that it doesn't need to set up (this is quite a struggle with its crappy defences), and with its great speed, can immediately start hammering away at everything. Choice Band is a great item for it, because most of the time it only has to click Head Smash. NOTHING commonly used in OU is a healthy switch-in. And it's not just defensive teams it can annihilate - don't forget the power of its STAB Accelerock:

Latios:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 144-169 (47.8 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tapu Koko:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 135-160 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Alakazam-Mega:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 168-198 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Greninja:
252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 163-193 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You get the idea.