1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Slowbro [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Crystal_, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    [Overview]

    <p>Amnesia Slowbro has gone down in history as one of the most famous and well-known sets in the world of competitive Pokemon. Generally known as Tobybro, Amnesia Slowbro is a moveset that combines both simplicity and efficiency. The RBY version of Amnesia is arguably the best stat-boosting move of all time, raising the Special stat by two stages. It quickly powers up Slowbro's Special moves, while covering its main defensive weakness: Electric-type attacks. Having one of the best physical defense stats in the game and learning Thunder Wave to make up for its awful Speed greatly helps make Slowbro more threatening as well. However, Slowbro is also a bit of an all-or-nothing Pokemon and requires some luck, which are the reasons why it's often an overlooked Pokemon. Without setting up, Slowbro is basically a useless Pokemon; it can't Recover to work as a wall for a long time, and offensively, it lacks Explosion or a sleep move unlike other specially-based Pokemon. On the other hand, if Slowbro sets up, it's meant never to switch back, so the user is inevitably taking some risks; Electric-type moves fail to get past a +6 Slowbro normally, but with a critical hit, a non-STAB Thunderbolt will nearly OHKO Slowbro while a STAB Thunderbolt will OHKO outright. With critical hit rates being much higher in RBY than in later generations, it's not really "bad luck" when Slowbro ultimately ends up dying to a critical hit Thunderbolt. To a lesser extent, this can also be applied to the physical side, potentially turning 4HKOs into 3HKOs, letting a physical sweeper get past Rest. However, while it's true that Slowbro depends quite a bit on luck, it also requires a good deal of skill, and Slowbro can be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the first generation, being the best Amensia user in RBY after Mewtwo.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tobybro
    move 1: Amnesia
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: Rest

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Everybody knows the set, but this doesn't make it less dangerous. Amnesia boosts Slowbro's decent Special, being able to reach the maximum 999 after three Amnesia boosts, letting Slowbro 2HKO Chansey with its STAB Surf at +6. When playing Slowbro, it's really useful to know some significant damage rolls or otherwise have a damage calculator handy. As said, Slowbro has a good chance of 2HKOing Chansey but must be at +6. The same can be said about Starmie, although a base 999 Special STAB Surf is a guaranteed 2HKO. On the other hand, Starmie is much more of a problem for Slowbro due to having a much higher critical hit ratio. Beating Tauros is about using Amnesia once and then 2HKOing it with Surf, although a +4 Slowbro stands a good chance of OHKOing Tauros. Snorlax, however, requires Slowbro to use Amnesia twice to get the 2HKO; a +6 Surf almost never OHKOes Snorlax. Zapdos also requires two Amnesia boosts, while Jolteon, like Tauros, is 2HKOed by a +2 Surf. Gengar will fall to two +2 Surfs half of the time, so it's generally advised to only use Amnesia once. Exeggutor and Lapras are 3HKOed by a +6 Surf; boosting either twice or three times is the way to go. All these calculations have been made considering that the opposition is at full health, so they may vary depending on the health of the opponent as well as on the situation of the battle itself.</p>

    <p>Having said that, using Thunder Wave first is almost always a good idea. Slowbro is tied with Snorlax as the slowest Pokemon in the game, so paralyzing Snorlax is also a good idea to guarantee Slowbro is faster than it or to fish for full paralysis. Against common Slowbro switch-ins, such as Starmie, Gengar, or Electric-types, Thunder Wave will have to be used as they switch in, so that you can get a boost before they are able to attack. However, it's generally advised to switch Slowbro back after paralyzing the switch-in to get the chance to move two consecutive times the next time they switch in. This way, you can maximize your chances of KOing said check before they are able to score a deadly critical hit Thunderbolt. Even if Starmie or Chansey paralyze Slowbro back in order to outspeed again, using Thunder Wave yourself first was the best move, because the chances of beating an unparalyzed Chansey and especially Starmie are slim, as they can just keep using Recover or Softboiled until Slowbro gets fully paralyzed and they get a chance to use Thunderbolt. An unparalyzed Starmie can also attempt to PP stall Slowbro out of Surfs as well.</p>

    <p>Rest is perfectly suited for Slowbro. During the setup, Slowbro generally takes some residual damage and gets paralyzed, but Rest can keep Slowbro healthy and free of status. After maximizing its Special, no special attack can get past Slowbro's Rest without a critical hit, and due to Slowbro's great Defense and lack of exploitable physical weaknesses, it's going to be hard to beat Slowbro from the physical side without Explosion. Tauros, for example, needs a critical hit Body Slam and Hyper Beam to 3HKO Slowbro, which is the only way it has to get past Rest; furthermore, if Tauros gets paralyzed, its chances of beating Slowbro become very small. Snorlax, meanwhile, will generally have to resort to Selfdestruct to take Slowbro down. Rhydon has the luxury of being able to 3HKO Slowbro with its powerful STAB Earthquake most of the time, but will have to switch into the predicted Rest and is OHKOed by even a +0 Surf. As said, Explosion makes a good way to eliminate Slowbro, but an Explosion might not even guarantee that a full health Slowbro goes down or gets revenge killed easily due to Slowbro's already mentioned great Defense. Exeggutor's Explosion, for instance, will only hit Slowbro for around 60%. Lowering Slowbro to around 80% or forcing it to Rest first is the safest way to ensure that one Explosion is enough to let a physical attacker, such as Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, or Persian, to revenge kill it safely.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Reflect is a possible alternative to Thunder Wave, as it doesn't change the general concept of the set, but changes the way it works in some way, and some of its counters. The first thing to notice is the loss of Thunder Wave, which will be problematic in several match-ups. Unless you can paralyze Starmie with another Pokemon, it will hard counter Slowbro. Other specially based Pokemon, such as Chansey, Lapras, Gengar, and Electric-types, will also become more problematic if you can't paralyze them; they will have a higher chance of scoring a critical hit Thunderbolt, as they will move first and avoid possible full paralysis. Lastly, Victreebel and Venusaur will have nothing to worry about a Slowbro lacking Thunder Wave unless its attacking move is Psychic. Letting Victreebel in for free could get especially problematic if it's packing Wrap.</p>

    <p>The reward of using Reflect comes from the physical side. It almost ensures that none of Snorlax, Golem, and Rhydon will have a chance to take Slowbro down due to their low critical hit rate. Tauros will have a lot of difficulties too, needing two critical hit Body Slams to beat Slowbro while it Rests. Reflect is also great for weakening Explosions, which is one of the most common and "safe" ways of getting rid of Slowbro; even Snorlax's Selfdestruct will only manage around 40% damage. Reflect makes double Explosions necessary to lower Slowbro to the point where it can be revenge killed, which, for the opponent, involves sacrificing at least two Pokemon.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Psychic is a STAB alternative to Surf, and trades 5 extra power for a 30% chance of scoring a Special fall. As far as type effectiveness is concerned, Psychic gains a neutral hit against Lapras and Cloyster and a super effective hit against Gengar and Victreebel, three of which are effective Slowbro checks, but loses the neutral hit against Alakazam as well as the ability to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +0, needing two Amnesia boosts to OHKO them. Seismic Toss Alakazam in particular will have the opportunity to force you to Rest before Slowbro is able to get past it. Psychic's lower PP could also be a problem against users of recovery moves, especially considering that, without Surf, Alakazam will also require more time to take down. It could also be an issue if your opponent keeps using Recover or Softboiled and gets lucky with full paralysis. Having 8 less PP could also be significant in an odd Slowbro war.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is another attacking move Slowbro can use. Its biggest upside is hitting Grass-types and Zapdos for super effective damage, including Exeggutor and Victreebel. Ice Beam will often surprise Exeggutor, OHKOing it at +6. At the very least, it will force Exeggutor to use Explosion earlier, making it more predictable. Meanwhile, Zapdos is 2HKOed by a +2 Ice Beam and OHKOed when Slowbro is at +6. Ice Beam's freeze chance might also save you in a pinch and could make a difference against another Slowbro or Amnesia Snorlax. Ice Beam, however, should only be used over Thunder Wave, because the STAB move is necessary to 2HKO Chansey and Starmie. Withdraw has the same goal as Reflect, with the difference that it can maximize Slowbro's Defense, but requires two turns to reach Reflect's potential. Reflect will generally turn out to be more useful and safer. Withdraw's high PP will let Slowbro outstall other Slowbro, however. Counter can surprise common Slowbro switch-ins like Starmie if you switch into a Body Slam from a physical attacker and scare it out, or if you predict a Hyper Beam. Counter has hardly any other uses other than these though, because Slowbro generally only takes physical attacks when it's asleep, excluding Explosion. Disable is a funny option that can prevent some Pokemon from Thunderbolting Slowbro for some time, but it's very unreliable and shouldn't really be used.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Starmie or Chansey packing Light Screen will completely counter Slowbro unless they get really unlucky with full paralysis. Light Screen is never seen on them, however, as it has no use outside of walling Slowbro. Victreebel and Venusaur are known for having a guaranteed critical hit in their STAB signature move, Razor Leaf. They won't like switching into a Thunder Wave, and could be surprised and OHKOed by a boosted STAB Psychic, but, otherwise, either of the Grass-types can KO Slowbro when it is below 70% or 2HKO it while it is Resting.</p>

    <p>Apart from these, Slowbro has no safe counters. Thunderbolt users are possible choices; the higher their critical hit ratio and amount of turns they can resist Slowbro's Surf, the better counters they are. Starmie is a good choice, having a very high Speed and thus a high critical hit ratio, while also resisting all of Slowbro's moves. It's not a surefire counter though, and in case Starmie prevails, it won't like having to eat a Thunder Wave. Gengar makes a good choice too, having a high critical hit ratio and being able to Explode for around 50% damage when it's about to die. However, it doesn't resist Surf and is weak to Psychic. Zapdos and Jolteon have the luxury of getting STAB in their Electric-type attacks; even when Slowbro is at +6, their Thunderbolts will still do significant damage. They also have a high critical hit ratio, but like Gengar, they don't resist Surf, and, unlike Gengar, can't Explode. Regarding Explosion, it makes a very viable choice for taking Slowbro down when you have no other option. It won't OHKO a healthy Slowbro, but could put it in the KO range of Tauros's Hyper Beam or Rhydon or Golem's Earthquake. Pokemon with Explosion include Exeggutor, Snorlax, Golem, Cloyster, and Gengar, although Gengar's Explosion is weaker. A Resting Slowbro that gets Exploded on is pretty much a dead Slowbro.</p>

    <p>Amnesia Snorlax will often defeat Slowbro, as its Body Slam is an almost guaranteed 4HKO while Slowbro's Surf only manages a 5HKO when both are at +6. Due to the Speed tie, a 4HKO could turn into a 3HKO, depending on who goes first the turn Slowbro uses Rest. If Snorlax is packing Thunderbolt instead, it will fare even better, 3HKOing Slowbro after both have set up. As far as the physical side goes, Rhydon makes a surprisingly viable option, although risky as well; it has to switch in when Slowbro uses Rest, and then try to 3HKO it with its STAB Earthquake, which will happen around 75-80% of the time. Tauros needs a critical hit Body Slam to get the chance to 3HKO it after finishing it off with a Hyper Beam. If Tauros gets paralyzed, though, you can pretty much forget about beating Slowbro. Snorlax's critical hit ratio is much smaller than Tauros's, but its Body Slam is almost a guaranteed 4HKO, and has an easier chance if Body Slam paralyzes Slowbro. For instance, if Snorlax moves first while Slowbro tries to use Rest, but moved last on the previous turn that Slowbro Rested, Snorlax beats Snowbro with only Body Slam. Both Tauros and physical Snorlax should really be careful when trying to counter Slowbro and should generally only be sent in when Slowbro is sleeping because they will otherwise die to previously-boosted Surfs more often than not.</p>

    <p>If Slowbro's set contains Reflect, though, trying to counter it with physical attacks becomes impractical unless you are willing to sacrifice at least two Exploders. In this case, however, any unparalyzed Thunderbolt user becomes a much more effective check, including the slow ones, such as Chansey and Lapras, which, despite their low critical hit rate, will get more chances to fish for it, as it's much more likely that Slowbro is forced to Rest more often. Chansey and especially Starmie will get the chance to keep using their recovery move until Slowbro gets fully paralyzed, which is when they get the chance to use Thunderbolt. Starmie is much better at doing this because Recover outlasts Surf in terms of PP.</p>

    <p>It's worth noting that Slowbro, as a Rest user, is one of those Pokemon that should be attacked whenever given the chance, because when it's Resting, you can apply a much higher and more effective variety of tactics to try to take it down. Exeggutor's Mega Drain and Alakazam and Jynx's Seismic Toss, for instance, may not do enough to kill Slowbro, but will cause some decent damage on it before being forced to switch out, which will force it to Rest earlier than desired.</p>
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,177
    All right here goes

    Overview:

    I'd remove this, it implies that if you're going to be a top player you shouldn't be using Slowbro.


    Change to: "Electric-type moves fail to get past a +6 Slowbro normally, but with a Critical Hit a non-STAB Thunderbolt will nearly OHKO Slowbro while a STAB Thunderbolt will OHKO outright."

    Also add something like: "With Critical Hit rates being much higher in RBY than in later generations, it's not really "bad luck" when Slowbro ultimately ends up dying to a Critical Hit Thunderbolt from a Starmie that spams it."


    change to "being the best Amensia user in RBY after Mewtwo".



    Set Comments:

    Slash Psychic with Surf (Surf/Psychic). I'd say it deserves it.

    Some of the matchups listed for damage calcs are kind of weird. I'd say instead of staying in to get boosts after an Electric-type switches in on Twave, you should just have Slowbro duck out since you honestly need 2 Amnesias to take non-crit STAB Thunderbolts well. Against Gengar I could accept using Amnesia after Paralyzing it on the switch (though insta-death is still very possible as with any Tbolter), but not without a mention of Explosion possibly ruining things.

    I think you downplay just how much Explosion can screw things up. Slowbro is almost never at 100% unless it's asleep, so Eggy's 60% boom + no turn for Slowbro + base 30 Speed means it's basically dead anyway.


    AC:

    "Almost hard counter" is a weird way of saying it. I think you could get away without saying "almost", since Slowbro really has no way to get past Starmie unless it's para'd.


    I'm confused, I thought we weren't using Twave here.


    I'd mention explicitly that it's because they're going first and not fearing FPs, because the way it's worded and the way some people might understand RBY, it could be read to say that because para lowers Speed, it also lowers Crit Rate.


    They don't really fear Slowbro either way. I mean getting para'd sucks, and that's probably what you mean, but Slowbro isn't beating them without Psychic, Twave or no. (I mean, I guess if they're weakened, a +2 Slowbro could finish them off with Surf, but then again, Zapdos can finish off a 10% Golem, too).

    Also, I know it's not quoted, but I wouldn't say "If partical [sic] trapping moves are allowed". Like, not just fixing the typo, but making a big deal of the controversy in the smogon analysis. Just say something like "Victreebel also threatens to use Wrap" to get the point across that Wrap Victreebel is scary.


    Again, I think you're undesrtating how devastating a boom can be to Slowbro. This should be the first benefit of Reflect imo.


    OO:

    As mentioned above, I'd say Psychic deserves a slash instead of being dumped into OO.


    *Significant


    Blizzard will usually OHKO at +4. Not that it matters too much, since by the time Slowbro is out Eggy should have a good few chunks taken out of its health. Also +2 Ice Beam 2HKOs Zapdos, that's worth talking about too.


    I don't think Counter is worth a mention at all tbh. It's like you said, you're better off just hitting them.


    The main point is to win a stall war in the event Slowbro v. Slowbro is a thing.


    Checks and Counters:

    I think you overstate Snorlax's advantage here. I'd say it's slightly in Slowbro's favor if anything, unless Snorlax is packing Tbolt (and, come on, who does that?) Slowbro gets guaranteed para on Snorlax so a couple of FPs are all it needs, and Surf actually has a slight chance of 4HKOing Snorlax anyway. Snorlax on the other hand needs to pray that Bslam's 30% para works to get back the speed tie. Of course there's also Reflect which totally dicks Snorlax over.


    Also, I'd move the first paragraph to last, tbh. Nobody uses this crap, except Amnesia lax, but only the bad variant matches up all that well.


    *Significant. Significative refers to something like Batman being a symbol of justice.


    *two exploders


    I'll be a mean mr. scrooge and withhold approval for now.
  3. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    7,323
    Because Jorgens is so much shorter than your analysis, I have only managed to read that so far instead of the whole thing and can say that neither psychic nor reflect should be slashed on the main set..
  4. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    keeping TW/Reflect for now.

    i mean with another pokemon


    I don't think i understated explosions THAT much, either way, changed some stuff, added more comments about it. I think it looks good now.


    Oh yea with counter i wanted to mention switching into hyper beam or into slams and then the slammer switches out and you hit that Starmie or whatever, but for length reasons i didn't, so i've simply taken out counter from oo this time.



    I actually think snorlax has the clear edge here. First, Surf almost never 4hkoes snorlax; although nb calc says 22-26% its actually 114-134 damage, not even four 130s will ko lax for instance (in fact if you put 913 spc instead of 912 you get 22-25% damage). And two fps in a row is "only" 6'25%, and if speed tie, slowbro might need 3 fps to beat snorlax depending on who went first the turn lax rested. I actually think most of the times slowbro will win, it'll be due to a crit surf, but then again snorlax can also score a crit and its pretty much an instant win.
    idk maybe i'm missing something?

    Anyway, I think i'm keeping the "hard counters" paragraph as the first one, because in most analyses the counters section generally go from better counters to less safe counters, or that's what I think at least?

    Moved the amnesialax stuff to another paragraph though. yea it's not a so hard counter i agree.


    And done everything else
  5. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,177
    Okay you can throw Counter back in I wasn't thinking that deeply about it (it can work for a surprise Starmie kill). I mean it's really only one or two extra sentences. If you really want to trim, though, you might as well throw out Disable too.

    Anyway it looks like you addressed most of the stuff. Just make sure to de-slash Reflect because Hip made it pretty clear he doesn't want to see it. Upon further thought I really don't think it should be slashed either, having it slashed implies parity between Twave and Reflect when really Twave is better most of the time.

    Anyhoo, this has my APPROVAL now.
  6. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,498
    I approve.

    btw, "being the best Amensia user in RBY after Mewtwo". Amnesia > Amensia
    "Relfect is a possible alternative to Thunder Wave". Reflect > Relfect
  7. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    7,323
    You still have reflect in additional comments, but otherwise I approve of this.
  8. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,561
    Reflect should AT LEAST be AC mentioned :o Many users try to bring it down with Explosion, and Reflect just gives them a finger.
  9. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    i agree with Pocket, as long as Hipmonlee is ok with keeping Reflect in AC this is ready for GP checks
  10. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Messages:
    7,323
  11. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego The little hand says it's time to rock and roll
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,818
    Amateur Check
    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Amnesia Slowbro has gone down in history as one of the most famous and well-known sets in the world of competitive Pokemon. Amnesia Slowbro, generally known as Tobybro, is a moveset that combines simplicity and efficiency. The RBY version of Amnesia is arguably the best stat-boosting move of all time, raising the Special Stat by two stages. It quickly powers up Slowbro’s Special moves, while covering its main weakness defensively: Electric-type attacks. Having one of the best physical defensive prowesses in the game and learning Thunder Wave to make up for its awful Speed stat, greatly help making Slowbro more threatening as well. However, Slowbro is also a bit of a all-or-nothing Pokemon and requiers some luck, which are the reasons why it’s often an underlooked Pokemon. Without setting up, Slowbro is basically an useless Pokemon; it can’t Recover to work as a wall for a long time, and offensively, it lacks Explosion or a sleep move unlike other specially-based Pokemon. On the other hand, if Slowbro sets up, it’s meant to never switch back, so the user is inevitably taking some risks; Electric-type moves fail to get past a +6 Slowbro normally, but with a critical hit a non-STAB Thunderbolt will nearly OHKO Slowbro while a STAB Thunderbolt will OHKO outright. With critical hit rates being much higher in RBY than in later generations, it's not really "bad luck" when Slowbro ultimately ends up dying to a critical hit Thunderbolt. To a lesser extent, this can also be applied to the physical side, potentially turning 4HKOs into 3HKOs, letting a physical sweeper get past Rest. However, while it’s true that Slowbro depends quite a bit on luck, it also requires a good deal of skill, and Slowbro can be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the first generation, being the best Amensia user in RBY after Mewtwo.</p>

    [Set]

    name: Tobybro
    move 1: Amnesia
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: Rest

    [Set comments]

    <p>Everybody knows the set, but this doesn’t make it less dangerous. Amnesia boosts Slowbro’s decent Special stat, being able to reach the maximum 999 Special Stat after three Amnesia boosts, letting Slowbro 2HKO Chansey with its STAB Surf at +6. When playing Slowbro, it’s really useful to know some significant damage rolls or otherwise have a damage calculator handy. As said, Slowbro has a good chance of 2HKOing Chansey but needs being at +6 for that. Pretty much The same can be said about Starmie, although a 999 Special STAB Surf is a guaranteed 2HKO. On the other hand, Starmie is much more of a problem for Slowbro due to having a much higher critical hit ratio. Beating Tauros is about using Amnesia once and then 2HKOing it with Surf, although a +4 Slowbro also stands a good chance of OHKOing Tauros. Snorlax, however, requires Slowbro to use Amnesia twice to get the 2HKO; a +6 Surf almost never OHKOes Snorlax. Zapdos also requires two Amnesia boosts, while Jolteon, is like Tauros, is 2HKOed by a +2 Surf. Gengar will die to two +2 Surfs half the time, so it’s generally advised to only Amnesia once. Exeggutor and Lapras are 3HKOed by a +6 Surf; boosting either twice or three times is the way to go. All these calculations have been made considering that the opposition is at full health so they may vary depending on the health of the opponent as well as on the situation of the battle itself.</p> It might be good to just replace this with some percentages similar to other analyses.

    <p>Having said that, using Thunder Wave first is almost always a good idea. Slowbro is slower than anything except Snorlax (or other Slowbro), and paralyzing Snorlax is also a good idea to guarantee you are faster than it or to fish for full paralysis. Against common Slowbro switch-ins such as Starmie, Gengar or Electric-types, Thunder Wave will have to be used as they switch in, so that you can get a boost before they are able to attack. However, it's generally advised to switch Slowbro back after paralyzing the switch-in to get the chance to move two consecutive times the next time they switch in. This way, you can maximize your chances of KOing said check before they are able to score a deadly critical hit Thunderbolt. Even if Starmie or Chansey paralyze you back in order to outspeed you again, using Thunder Wave yourself first was the best move, because the chances of beating unparalyzed Chansey and especially Starmie are slim, as they can just keep using Recover or Softboided until you get fully paralyzed and they get a chance to use Thunderbolt. An unparalyzed Starmie can also attempt to PP stall Slowbro out of Surfs as well.</p>

    <p>Rest is perfectly suited for Slowbro. During the setup, Slowbro generally takes some residual damage and get paralyzed, but Rest can keep Slowbro healthy and free of status. After maximizing its Special Stat, no special attack can get past Slowbro’s Rest without a critical hit, and due to Slowbro’s great Defense and lack of exploitable physical weaknesses, it’s going to be hard to beat Slowbro from the physical side without Explosion. Tauros, for example, needs a critical hit Body Slam and a Hyper Beam finisher to 3HKO Slowbro, which is the only way it has to get past its Rest; but if Tauros gets paralyzed, its chances of beating Slowbro become very small. Snorlax, meanwhile, will generally have to resort to Selfdestruct to take Slowbro down. On the other hand, Rhydon has the luxury of being able to 3HKO Slowbro with its powerful STAB Earthquake most of the time, but it will have switch into the predicted Rest and is OHKOed by even a +0 Surf. As said, Explosion makes a good way to eliminate Slowbro, but an Explosion might not even guarantee that a full health Slowbro goes down or gets revenge killed easily due to Slowbro’s already mentioned great Defense: Exeggutor’s Explosion, for instance, will only hit Slowbro for around 60% damage. Lower Slowbro to around 80% or force it to Rest first is the safest way to ensure that one Explosion is enough to let a physical atacker such as Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, (AC) or Persian revenge kill it safely.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Relfect is a possible alternative to Thunder Wave, as it doesn’t change the general concept of the set, but it does changes the way it works in some way, and some of its counters. The first thing to notice is the loss of Thunder Wave, which will be problematic in several matchups. Unless you can paralyze Starmie with another Pokemon, it will hard counter Slowbro as explained before. Chansey is, however, a much easier paralysis target if you want to go for it. Other specially based Pokemon, such as Lapras, Gengar, (AC) and Electric-types, will also get more problematic if you can’t paralyze them, because they will have a higher chance of scoring a critical hit Thunderbolt, as they will move first and avoid possible full paralysis. Lastly, Victreebel and Venusaur will have nothing to worry about a Thunder Wave-less Slowbro unless its attacking move is Psychic. Letting Victreebel in for free could get especially problematic if it's packing Wrap in its moveset.</p>

    <p>The reward of using Reflect comes from the physical side. It almost ensures that none of Snorlax, Golem, (AC) and Rhydon will have a chance to take Slowbro down due to their low critical hit rate. Tauros will have a lot of difficulties too, needing two critical hit Body Slams to beat Slowbro while it Rests. Reflect is also great for weakening Explosions, which is one of the most common and "safe" ways of getting rid of Slowbro; otherwise; even Snorlax’s STAB Selfdestruct will only manage around 40% damage. Reflect makes double Explosions necessary to lower Slowbro to the point where it can be revenge killed, which, for the opponent, involves sacrificing at least two Pokemon. Moreover, depending on the users of the Explosion moves and the damage rolls, exploding twice might not even be enough to guarantee that Slowbro can finally go down.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Psychic is a STAB alternative to Surf, and It trades 5 extra power for a 30% chance of scoring a Special fall. As far as type effectiveness is concerned, Psychic gains a neutral hit against Lapras and Cloyster and a super effective hit against Gengar and Victreebel, three of which are effective Slowbro checks, but loses the neutral hit against Alakazam as well as the ability to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +0, needing two Amnesia boosts to OHKO them. Seismic Toss Alakazam in particular will have the opportunity to force you to Rest before Slowbro is able to get past it. Psychic’s lower PP could also be a problem against users of recovery moves, especially considering that, without Surf, Alakazam will also require more time to take down. Psychic’s low PP might be an issue if they keep using Recover or Softboiled and get lucky with full paralysis. Having 8 less PP could also be significant in an odd Slowbro war.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is another attacking move Slowbro can use. Its biggest upside is hitting Grass-types and Zapdos for super effective damage, including Exeggutor and Victreebel if you lack Psychic. Ice Beam will often surprise Exeggutor, OHKOing it at +6. At the very least, it will force Exeggutor to use Exploison earlier, making it more predictable. Meanwhile, Zapdos is 2HKOed by a +2 Ice Beam and OHKOed when Slowbro is at +6. Ice Beam’s freeze chance might also save you in a pinch and could make a difference against another Slowbro or Amnesia Snorlax. Ice Beam, however, should only be used over Thunder Wave, because the STAB move is necessary to 2HKO Chansey and Starmie. Withdraw has the same goal as Reflect, with the difference that it can maximize Slowbro’s Defense but requiers two turns to reach Relfect’s potential. Reflect will generally turn out to be more useful and safer. Withdraw's high PP will let Slowbro outstall other Slowbro, however. Counter can surprise common Slowbro switch-ins such as Starmie if you switch into a Body Slam from a physical attacker and scare it out or for predict a Hyper Beams. Counter has hardly any other use other than these though, because Slowbro generally only takes physical attacks when it's sleeping, excluding Explosion, so Counter is a poor move on Slowbro. Disable is a funny option that can prevent some Pokemon from Thunderbolting you for some time, but it’s very unreliable and shouldn’t really be used.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Starmie or Chansey packing Light Screen will completely counter Slowbro unless they get really unlucky with full paralysis. Light Screen is never seen on them, (AC) however, as it has no use outside of walling Slowbro better. Victreebel and Venusaur are known for having a guaranteed critical hit in their STAB signature move: Razor Leaf. They won’t like switching into a Thunder Wave, and could be surprised and OHKOed by a boosted STAB Psychic, but, otherwise, either of the Grass-types can KO Slowbro when its below 70% or 2HKO it while Slowbro is resting.</p>

    <p>Apart from these, Slowbro has no safe counters. Thunderbolt users are possible choices; the higher their critical hit ratio and the amount of turns they can resist Slowbro's Surf, the better counters they are. Then, it’s a matter of getting more or less lucky. Starmie is a good choice, having a very high Speed Stat and thus a high critical hit ratio, while also resisting all of Slowbro’s Special moves. It’s not a surefire counter though, and in case Starmie prevails, it won’t like having to eat a Thunder Wave. Gengar makes a good choice too, having a high critical hit ratio and being able to explode for around 50% damage when it’s about to die. It, However, it doesn’t resist Surf and is weak to Psychic. Zapdos and Jolteon have the luxury of getting STAB in their Electric-type attacks; even when Slowbro is at +6, (RC) their Thunderbolts will still do significant damage. They also have a high critical hit ratio, but like Gengar, they doesn’t resist Surf, and, unlike it, can’t explode. Regarding Explosion, it makes a very viable choice for taking Slowbro down when you have no other option. It won’t OHKO a healthy Slowbro, but at least could put it in the KO range of Tauros’s Hyper Beam or Rhydon’s or Golem’s Earthquake. Pokemon with Explosion include Exeggutor, Snorlax, Golem, Cloyster, (AC) and Gengar, although Gengar’s Explosion is weaker. A resting Slowbro that gets exploded on is pretty much a dead Slowbro.</p>

    <p>Amnesia Snorlax will often defeat Slowbro, as its Body Slam is an almost guaranteed 4HKO while Slowbro’s Surf only manages a 5HKO when both are at +6 Special. Due to the speed tie, a 4HKO could tourn into a 3HKO, depending on who goes first the turns Slowbro uses Rest. If Snorlax is packing Thunderbolt instead, it will fare even better, 3HKOing Slowbro after both have set up. As far as the physical side goes, Rhydon makes a surpringly viable option, although risky as well; it has to switch in when Slowbro uses Rest, and then try to 3HKO it with its STAB Earthquake, which will happen around 75-80% of the times. Tauros needs a critical hit Body Slam to get the chance to 3HKO it after finishing it off with a Hyper Beam. If Tauros gets paralyzed, (AC) though, you can pretty much forget about beating Slowbro it with tauros. Snorlax’s critical hit ratio is much smaller, but, on the other hand, its Body Slam is an almost guaranteed 4HKO, so, if Body Slam paralyzes Slowbro, due to the speed tie (or a possible full paralysis), Snorlax has a chance to beat Slowbro with only Body Slams if Snorlax goes first the turn Slowbro is trying to Rest, but went last the previous turn Slowbro rested. Both Tauros and physical Snorlax should really be careful when trying to counter Slowbro and should generally only be sent when Slowbro is sleeping because they will otherwise die to boosted Surfs before more often than not.</p>

    <p>If Slowbro’s set contains Reflect, (AC) though, it becomes inviable to try to counter it with physical attacks unless you are willing to sacrifice at least two exploders. In this case, however, any unparalyzed Thunderbolt user becomes a much more effective check, including the slow ones, such as Chansey and Lapras, which despite their low critical hit rate will get more chances to fish for it, as it’s much more likely that Slowbro is forced to Rest more often. Chansey and especially Starmie will get the chance to keep using their recovery move until Slowbro gets fully paralyzed, which is when they get the chance to use Thunderbolt. Starmie is much better at doing this because Recover outlasts Surf in terms of PP.</p>

    <p>It’s worth noting that Slowbro, as a Rest user, is one of those Pokemon that should be attacked whenever given the chance, because when its resting you can apply a much higher and more effective variety of tactics to try to take it down. Exeggutor’s Mega Drain or Alakazam’s or Jynx’s Seismic Toss, for instance, may not do enough to kill Slowbro, but will cause some decent damage on it before forced to switch out, which will force it to Rest earlier than desired.</p>


    Wow

    Critical Hit < critical hit

    There was a lot of fluff here, and as I'm not sure what the standard amount for RBY is, I pretty much just left it in.
  12. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    check implemented! Thanks!

    Regarding the damage calcs, they are mostly to show the way Slowbro should be played, which may vary depending on the opposing Pokemon. And showing a few damage calcs and xhkos are the best ways to show it imo, but at the same time explaining each one and its effect on how you should play slowbro, which is something you can't do if you simply list the damage calcs like in other new gen analyses. Plus, it'd be the only rby analysis with that kind of calc list...

    I don't think this is long imo, just have a look at gsc machamp
  13. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,177
    Being shorter than that analysis isn't really saying much. Especially when that's 3 sets and yours is one. Combing through for fluff is rarely a bad idea. In fact I should probably go through and do that with Machamp sometime soon.

    That being said this honestly is not that bad.
  14. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego The little hand says it's time to rock and roll
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,818
    Well, apparently there's just a lot more to talk about when the game consists of 149 pokemon, with probably only a third actually viable, the trade off is that all of those viable pokemon are mentioned a lot.

    Considering most RBY analyses are just a few 3 sentence paragraphs, damage clacs still wouldn't be that bad.
  15. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryonce in a while to keep me busy
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,586
    toby mcguire (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>Amnesia Slowbro has gone down in history as one of the most famous and well-known sets in the world of competitive Pokemon. Amnesia Slowbro, Generally known as Tobybro, Amnesia Slowbro is a moveset that combines both simplicity and efficiency. The RBY version of Amnesia is arguably the best stat-boosting move of all time, raising the Special by two stages. It quickly powers up Slowbro's Special moves, while covering its main defensive weakness: defensively: Electric-type attacks. Having one of the best physical defensive prowesses stats in the game and learning Thunder Wave to make up for its awful Speed greatly help making make Slowbro more threatening as well. However, Slowbro is also a bit of a all-or-nothing Pokemon and requiers some luck, which are the reasons why it’s often an underlooked Pokemon. Without setting up, Slowbro is basically a useless Pokemon; it can’t Recover to work as a wall for a long time, and offensively, it lacks Explosion or a sleep move unlike other specially-based Pokemon. On the other hand, if Slowbro sets up, it's meant to never to switch back, so the user is inevitably taking some risks; Electric-type moves fail to get past a +6 Slowbro normally, but with a critical hit a non-STAB Thunderbolt will nearly OHKO Slowbro while a STAB Thunderbolt will OHKO outright. With critical hit rates being much higher in RBY than in later generations, it's not really "bad luck" when Slowbro ultimately ends up dying to a critical hit Thunderbolt. To a lesser extent, this can also be applied to the physical side, potentially turning 4HKOs into 3HKOs, letting a physical sweeper get past Rest. However, while it’s true that Slowbro depends quite a bit on luck, it also requires a good deal of skill, and Slowbro can be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the first generation, being the best Amensia user in RBY after Mewtwo.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Tobybro
    move 1: Amnesia
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: Rest

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Everybody knows the set, but this doesn't make it less dangerous. Amnesia boosts Slowbro’s decent Special, being able to reach the maximum 999 after three Amnesia boosts, letting Slowbro 2HKO Chansey with its STAB Surf at +6. When playing Slowbro, it's really useful to know some significant damage rolls or otherwise have a damage calculator handy. As said, Slowbro has a good chance of 2HKOing Chansey but needs being must be at +6. The same can be said about Starmie, although a 999 Special STAB Surf is a guaranteed 2HKO. On the other hand, Starmie is much more of a problem for Slowbro due to having a much higher critical hit ratio. Beating Tauros is about using Amnesia once and then 2HKOing it with Surf, although a +4 Slowbro also stands a good chance of OHKOing Tauros. Snorlax, however, requires Slowbro to use Amnesia twice to get the 2HKO; a +6 Surf almost never OHKOes Snorlax. Zapdos also requires two Amnesia boosts, while Jolteon, like Tauros, is 2HKOed by a +2 Surf. Gengar will die to two +2 Surfs half the time, so it’s generally advised to only Amnesia once. Exeggutor and Lapras are 3HKOed by a +6 Surf; boosting either twice or three times is the way to go. All these calculations have been made considering that the opposition is at full health so they may vary depending on the health of the opponent as well as on the situation of the battle itself.</p>(I'm pretty sure all RBY calcs assume that since there's no adverse weather or hazards, so that sentence is unnecessary)

    <p>Having said that, using Thunder Wave first is almost always a good idea. Slowbro is slower than anything except Snorlax (or other Slowbro), Slowbro is tied with Snorlax as the slowest Pokemon in the game, so and paralyzing Snorlax is also a good idea to guarantee you are faster than it or to fish for full paralysis. Against common Slowbro switch-ins such as Starmie, Gengar, or Electric-types, Thunder Wave will have to be used as they switch in, so that you can get a boost before they are able to attack. However, it's generally advised to switch Slowbro back after paralyzing the switch-in to get the chance to move two consecutive times the next time they switch in. This way, you can maximize your chances of KOing said check before they are able to score a deadly critical hit Thunderbolt. Even if Starmie or Chansey paralyze you back in order to outspeed again, using Thunder Wave yourself first was the best move, because the chances of beating unparalyzed Chansey and especially Starmie are slim, as they can just keep using Recover or Softboided until you get fully paralyzed and they get a chance to use Thunderbolt. An unparalyzed Starmie can also attempt to PP stall Slowbro out of Surfs as well.</p>

    <p>Rest is perfectly suited for Slowbro. During the setup, Slowbro generally takes some residual damage and gets paralyzed, but Rest can keep Slowbro healthy and free of status. After maximizing its Special, no special attack can get past Slowbro's Rest without a critical hit, and due to Slowbro's great Defense and lack of exploitable physical weaknesses, it's going to be hard to beat Slowbro from the physical side without Explosion. Tauros, for example, needs a critical hit Body Slam and Hyper Beam to 3HKO Slowbro, which is the only way it has to get past Rest; but furthermore, if Tauros gets paralyzed, its chances of beating Slowbro become very small. Snorlax, meanwhile, will generally have to resort to Selfdestruct to take Slowbro down. On the other hand, Rhydon has the luxury of being able to 3HKO Slowbro with its powerful STAB Earthquake most of the time, but will have to switch into the predicted Rest and is OHKOed by even a +0 Surf. As said, Explosion makes a good way to eliminate Slowbro, but an Explosion might not even guarantee that a full health Slowbro goes down or gets revenge killed easily due to Slowbro's already mentioned great Defense:. Exeggutor’s Explosion, for instance, will only hit Slowbro for around 60%. Lowering Slowbro to around 80% or forceing it to Rest first is the safest way to ensure that one Explosion is enough to let a physical attacker such as Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, or Persian revenge kill it safely.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>RelfectReflect is a possible alternative to Thunder Wave, as it doesn't change the general concept of the set, but changes the way it works in some way, and some of its counters. The first thing to notice is the loss of Thunder Wave, which will be problematic in several matchups. Unless you can paralyze Starmie with another Pokemon, it will hard counter Slowbro. Other specially based Pokemon, such as Chansey, Lapras, Gengar, and Electric-types, will also get become more problematic if you can't paralyze them, because they will have a higher chance of scoring a critical hit Thunderbolt, as they will move first and avoid possible full paralysis. Lastly, Victreebel and Venusaur will have nothing to worry about a Thunder Wave-less Slowbro lacking Thunder Wave unless its attacking move is Psychic. Letting Victreebel in for free could get especially problematic if it's packing Wrap in its moveset.</p>

    <p>The reward of using Reflect comes from the physical side. It almost ensures that none of Snorlax, Golem, and Rhydon will have a chance to take Slowbro down due to their low critical hit rate. Tauros will have a lot of difficulties too, needing two critical hit Body Slams to beat Slowbro while it Rests. Reflect is also great for weakening Explosions, which is one of the most common and "safe" ways of getting rid of Slowbro; even Snorlax’s Selfdestruct will only manage around 40% damage. Reflect makes double Explosions necessary to lower Slowbro to the point where it can be revenge killed, which, for the opponent, involves sacrificing at least two Pokemon. Moreover, depending on the users of Explosion and the damage rolls, exploding twice might not even be enough to guarantee that Slowbro can finally go down.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Psychic is a STAB alternative to Surf, and trades 5 extra power for a 30% chance of scoring a Special fall. As far as type effectiveness is concerned, Psychic gains a neutral hit against Lapras and Cloyster and a super effective hit against Gengar and Victreebel, three of which are effective Slowbro checks, but loses the neutral hit against Alakazam as well as the ability to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +0, needing two Amnesia boosts to OHKO them. Seismic Toss Alakazam in particular will have the opportunity to force you to Rest before Slowbro is able to get past it. Psychic's lower PP could also be a problem against users of recovery moves, especially considering that, without Surf, Alakazam will also require more time to take down. Psychic’s low PP might be an issue if they your opponent keeps using Recover or Softboiled and gets lucky with full paralysis. Having 8 less PP could also be significant in an odd Slowbro war.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is another attacking move Slowbro can use. Its biggest upside is hitting Grass-types and Zapdos for super effective damage, including Exeggutor and Victreebel. Ice Beam will often surprise Exeggutor, OHKOing it at +6. At the very least, it will force Exeggutor to use ExploisonExplosion earlier, making it more predictable. Meanwhile, Zapdos is 2HKOed by a +2 Ice Beam and OHKOed when Slowbro is at +6. Ice Beam’s freeze chance might also save you in a pinch and could make a difference against another Slowbro or Amnesia Snorlax. Ice Beam, however, should only be used over Thunder Wave, because the STAB move is necessary to 2HKO Chansey and Starmie. Withdraw has the same goal as Reflect, with the difference that it can maximize Slowbro's Defense but requiersrequires two turns to reach Relfect's potential. Reflect will generally turn out to be more useful and safer. Withdraw's high PP will let Slowbro outstall other Slowbro, however. Counter can surprise common Slowbro switch-ins such as Starmie if you switch into a Body Slam from a physical attacker and scare it out, or if you predict a Hyper Beam. Counter has hardly any other uses other than these though, because Slowbro generally only takes physical attacks when it's asleep, excluding Explosion,. so Counter is a poor move on Slowbro. Disable is a funny option that can prevent some Pokemon from Thunderbolting you for some time, but it's very unreliable and shouldn't really be used.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Starmie or Chansey packing Light Screen will completely counter Slowbro unless they get really unlucky with full paralysis. Light Screen is never seen on them, however, as it has no use outside of walling Slowbro. Victreebel and Venusaur are known for having a guaranteed critical hit in their STAB signature move: Razor Leaf. They won't like switching into a Thunder Wave, and could be surprised and OHKOed by a boosted STAB Psychic, but, otherwise, either of the Grass-types can KO Slowbro when its is below 70% or 2HKO it while Slowbro it is resting.</p>

    <p>Apart from these, Slowbro has no safe counters. Thunderbolt users are possible choices; the higher their critical hit ratio and the amount of turns they can resist Slowbro's Surf, the better counters they are. Starmie is a good choice, having a very high Speed and thus a high critical hit ratio, while also resisting all of Slowbro's moves. It's not a surefire counter though, and in case Starmie prevails, it won’t like having to eat a Thunder Wave. Gengar makes a good choice too, having a high critical hit ratio and being able to explode for around 50% damage when it's about to die. However, it doesn’t resist Surf and is weak to Psychic. Zapdos and Jolteon have the luxury of getting STAB in their Electric-type attacks; even when Slowbro is at +6, their Thunderbolts will still do significant damage. They also have a high critical hit ratio, but like Gengar, they doesn’t don't resist Surf, and, unlike itGengar, can't explode. Regarding Explosion, it makes a very viable choice for taking Slowbro down when you have no other option. It won't OHKO a healthy Slowbro, but could put it in the KO range of Tauros's Hyper Beam or Rhydon or Golem's Earthquake. Pokemon with Explosion include Exeggutor, Snorlax, Golem, Cloyster, and Gengar, although Gengar's Explosion is weaker. A resting Slowbro that gets exploded on is pretty much a dead Slowbro.</p>

    <p>Amnesia Snorlax will often defeat Slowbro, as its Body Slam is an almost guaranteed 4HKO while Slowbro's Surf only manages a 5HKO when both are at +6. Due to the speed tie, a 4HKO could tourn into a 3HKO, depending on who goes first the turn Slowbro uses Rest. If Snorlax is packing Thunderbolt instead, it will fare even better, 3HKOing Slowbro after both have set up. As far as the physical side goes, Rhydon makes a surpringly viable option, although risky as well; it has to switch in when Slowbro uses Rest, and then try to 3HKO it with its STAB Earthquake, which will happen around 75-80% of the time. Tauros needs a critical hit Body Slam to get the chance to 3HKO it after finishing it off with a Hyper Beam. If Tauros gets paralyzed, though, you can pretty much forget about beating Slowbro. Snorlax’s critical hit ratio is much smaller, but, on the other hand, its Body Slam is an almost guaranteed 4HKO, so, if Body Slam paralyzes Slowbro, due to the speed tie (or a possible full paralysis), Snorlax has a chance to beat Slowbro with only Body Slam if Snorlax goes first the turn Slowbro is trying to Rest, but went last the previous turn Slowbro rested. Snorlax's critical hit ratio is much smaller than Tauros's, but its Body Slam is almost a guaranteed 4HKO, and has an easier chance if Body Slam paralyzes Slowbro. For instance, if Snorlax moves first while Slowbro tries to rest, but moved last on the previous turn that Slowbro rested, Snorlax beats Snowbro with only Body Slam. Both Tauros and physical Snorlax should really be careful when trying to counter Slowbro and should generally only be sent in when Slowbro is sleeping because they will otherwise die to previous boosted Surfs before more often than not.</p>

    <p>If Slowbro's set contains Reflect, though, it becomes inviable to trying to counter it with physical attacks becomes impractical unless you are willing to sacrifice at least two exploders. In this case, however, any unparalyzed Thunderbolt user becomes a much more effective check, including the slow ones, such as Chansey and Lapras, which, despite their low critical hit rate, will get more chances to fish for it, as it's much more likely that Slowbro is forced to Rest more often. Chansey and especially Starmie will get the chance to keep using their recovery move until Slowbro gets fully paralyzed, which is when they get the chance to use Thunderbolt. Starmie is much better at doing this because Recover outlasts Surf in terms of PP.</p>

    <p>It's worth noting that Slowbro, as a Rest user, is one of those Pokemon that should be attacked whenever given the chance, because when its resting you can apply a much higher and more effective variety of tactics to try to take it down. Exeggutor's Mega Drain or Alakazam or and Jynx's Seismic Toss, for instance, may not do enough to kill Slowbro, but will cause some decent damage on it before forced to switch out, which will force it to Rest earlier than desired.</p>

    Okay, the first checked missed a ton of spelling and grammatical errors so I'm just going to give this one stamp. Amateur checkers, please make sure to read through the Spelling and Grammar Standards to make sure you have your Oxford commas and correct apostrophes / quotation marks sorted out. Also, Crystal_, don't mark your analyses [GP 1/2] unless the person checking it gives an official stamp. In other words, this analysis is still 1/2.

    [gp](1/2)[/gp]
  16. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    yeah, okay, didn't realise

    The calcs are mostly to show how to play slowbro against each pokemon in order to kill them in the fewest possible turns. I think it's useful to point out to only follow them when the opponent is at 100%; they are not calcs to merely show slowbro's power or anything, but rather to better explain how slowbro should be played.
  17. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryonce in a while to keep me busy
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,586
    Yeah as I went through the analyses and noticed how much you emphasized Rest, it seems like Slowbro is at 100% most of the time anyway. Go ahead and keep it.
  18. Redew

    Redew jukain sucks
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,336
    amcheck (open)
    DeleteAdd

    [Overview]

    <p>Amnesia Slowbro has gone down in history as one of the most famous and well-known sets in the world of competitive Pokemon. Generally known as Tobybro, Amnesia Slowbro is a moveset that combines both simplicity and efficiency. The RBY version of Amnesia is arguably the best stat-boosting move of all time, raising the Special by two stages. It quickly powers up Slowbro's Special moves, while covering its main defensive weakness: Electric-type attacks. Having one of the best physical defense stats in the game and learning Thunder Wave to make up for its awful Speed greatly helps make Slowbro more threatening as well. However, Slowbro is also a bit of an all-or-nothing Pokemon and requierres some luck, which are the reasons why it's often an underlooked Pokemon. Without setting up, Slowbro is basically a useless Pokemon; it can't Recover to work as a wall for a long time, and offensively, it lacks Explosion or a sleep move unlike other specially-based Pokemon. On the other hand, if Slowbro sets up, it's meant never to switch back, so the user is inevitably taking some risks; Electric-type moves fail to get past a +6 Slowbro normally, but with a critical hit a non-STAB Thunderbolt will nearly OHKO Slowbro while a STAB Thunderbolt will OHKO outright. With critical hit rates being much higher in RBY than in later generations, it's not really "bad luck" when Slowbro ultimately ends up dying to a critical hit Thunderbolt. To a lesser extent, this can also be applied to the physical side, potentially turning 4HKOs into 3HKOs, letting a physical sweeper get past Rest. However, while it's true that Slowbro depends quite a bit on luck, it also requires a good deal of skill, and Slowbro can be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the first generation, being the best Amensia user in RBY after Mewtwo.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Tobybro
    move 1: Amnesia
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: Rest

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Everybody knows the set, but this doesn't make it less dangerous. Amnesia boosts Slowbro's decent Special, being able to reach the maximum 999 after three Amnesia boosts, letting Slowbro 2HKO Chansey with its STAB Surf at +6. When playing Slowbro, it's really useful to know some significant damage rolls or otherwise have a damage calculator handy. As said, Slowbro has a good chance of 2HKOing Chansey but must be at +6. The same can be said about Starmie, although a Base 999 Special STAB Surf is a guaranteed 2HKO. On the other hand, Starmie is much more of a problem for Slowbro due to having a much higher critical hit ratio. Beating Tauros is about using Amnesia once and then 2HKOing it with Surf, although a +4 Slowbro stands a good chance of OHKOing Tauros. Snorlax, however, requires Slowbro to use Amnesia twice to get the 2HKO; a +6 Surf almost never OHKOes Snorlax. Zapdos also requires two Amnesia boosts, while Jolteon, like Tauros, is 2HKOed by a +2 Surf. Gengar will die to two +2 Surfs half the time, so it's generally advised to only Amnesia once. Exeggutor and Lapras are 3HKOed by a +6 Surf; boosting either twice or three times is the way to go. All these calculations have been made considering that the opposition is at full health so they may vary depending on the health of the opponent as well as on the situation of the battle itself.</p>

    <p>Having said that, using Thunder Wave first is almost always a good idea. Slowbro is tied with Snorlax as the slowest Pokemon in the game, so paralyzing Snorlax is also a good idea to guarantee you are faster than it or to fish for full paralysis. Against common Slowbro switch-ins such as Starmie, Gengar, or Electric-types, Thunder Wave will have to be used as they switch in, so that you can get a boost before they are able to attack. However, it's generally advised to switch Slowbro back after paralyzing the switch-in to get the chance to move two consecutive times the next time they switch in. This way, you can maximize your chances of KOing said check before they are able to score a deadly critical hit Thunderbolt. Even if Starmie or Chansey paralyze you back in order to outspeed again, using Thunder Wave yourself first was the best move, because the chances of beating unparalyzed Chansey and especially Starmie are slim, as they can just keep using Recover or Softboidled until you get fully paralyzed and they get a chance to use Thunderbolt. An unparalyzed Starmie can also attempt to PP stall Slowbro out of Surfs as well.</p>

    <p>Rest is perfectly suited for Slowbro. During the setup, Slowbro generally takes some residual damage and gets paralyzed, but Rest can keep Slowbro healthy and free of status. After maximizing its Special, no special attack can get past Slowbro's Rest without a critical hit, and due to Slowbro's great Defense and lack of exploitable physical weaknesses, it's going to be hard to beat Slowbro from the physical side without Explosion. Tauros, for example, needs a critical hit Body Slam and Hyper Beam to 3HKO Slowbro, which is the only way it has to get past Rest; furthermore, if Tauros gets paralyzed, its chances of beating Slowbro become very small. Snorlax, meanwhile, will generally have to resort to Selfdestruct to take Slowbro down. On the other hand, Rhydon has the luxury of being able to 3HKO Slowbro with its powerful STAB Earthquake most of the time, but will have to switch into the predicted Rest and is OHKOed by even a +0 Surf. As said, Explosion makes a good way to eliminate Slowbro, but an Explosion might not even guarantee that a full health Slowbro goes down or gets revenge killed easily due to Slowbro's already mentioned great Defense:. Exeggutor's Explosion, for instance, will only hit Slowbro for around 60%. Lowering Slowbro to around 80% or forcing it to Rest first is the safest way to ensure that one Explosion is enough to let a physical attacker such as Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, or Persian revenge kill it safely.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Reflect is a possible alternative to Thunder Wave, as it doesn't change the general concept of the set, but changes the way it works in some way, and some of its counters. The first thing to notice is the loss of Thunder Wave, which will be problematic in several matchups. Unless you can paralyze Starmie with another Pokemon, it will hard counter Slowbro. Other specially based Pokemon, such as Chansey, Lapras, Gengar, and Electric-types, will also become more problematic if you can't paralyze them, because they will have a higher chance of scoring a critical hit Thunderbolt, as they will move first and avoid possible full paralysis. Lastly, Victreebel and Venusaur will have nothing to worry about a Slowbro lacking Thunder Wave unless its attacking move is Psychic. Letting Victreebel in for free could get especially problematic if it's packing Wrap.</p>

    <p>The reward of using Reflect comes from the physical side. It almost ensures that none of Snorlax, Golem, and Rhydon will have a chance to take Slowbro down due to their low critical hit rate. Tauros will have a lot of difficulties too, needing two critical hit Body Slams to beat Slowbro while it Rests. Reflect is also great for weakening Explosions, which is one of the most common and "safe" ways of getting rid of Slowbro; even Snorlax's Selfdestruct will only manage around 40% damage. Reflect makes double Explosions necessary to lower Slowbro to the point where it can be revenge killed, which, for the opponent, involves sacrificing at least two Pokemon.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Psychic is a STAB alternative to Surf, and trades 5 extra power for a 30% chance of scoring a Special fall. As far as type effectiveness is concerned, Psychic gains a neutral hit against Lapras and Cloyster and a super effective hit against Gengar and Victreebel, three of which are effective Slowbro checks, but loses the neutral hit against Alakazam as well as the ability to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +0, needing two Amnesia boosts to OHKO them. Seismic Toss Alakazam in particular will have the opportunity to force you to Rest before Slowbro is able to get past it. Psychic's lower PP could also be a problem against users of recovery moves, especially considering that, without Surf, Alakazam will also require more time to take down. Psychic’s low PP mightIt could also be an issue if your opponent keeps using Recover or Softboiled and gets lucky with full paralysis. Having 8 less PP could also be significant in an odd Slowbro war.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is another attacking move Slowbro can use. Its biggest upside is hitting Grass-types and Zapdos for super effective damage, including Exeggutor and Victreebel. Ice Beam will often surprise Exeggutor, OHKOing it at +6. At the very least, it will force Exeggutor to use Explosion earlier, making it more predictable. Meanwhile, Zapdos is 2HKOed by a +2 Ice Beam and OHKOed when Slowbro is at +6. Ice Beam’s freeze chance might also save you in a pinch and could make a difference against another Slowbro or Amnesia Snorlax. Ice Beam, however, should only be used over Thunder Wave, because the STAB move is necessary to 2HKO Chansey and Starmie. Withdraw has the same goal as Reflect, with the difference that it can maximize Slowbro's Defense, but requires two turns to reach Relfflect's potential. Reflect will generally turn out to be more useful and safer. Withdraw's high PP will let Slowbro outstall other Slowbro, however. Counter can surprise common Slowbro switch-ins such aslike Starmie if you switch into a Body Slam from a physical attacker and scare it out, or if you predict a Hyper Beam. Counter has hardly any other uses other than these though, because Slowbro generally only takes physical attacks when it's asleep, excluding Explosion. Disable is a funny option that can prevent some Pokemon from Thunderbolting you for some time, but it's very unreliable and shouldn't really be used.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Starmie or Chansey packing Light Screen will completely counter Slowbro unless they get really unlucky with full paralysis. Light Screen is never seen on them, however, as it has no use outside of walling Slowbro. Victreebel and Venusaur are known for having a guaranteed critical hit in their STAB signature move:, Razor Leaf. They won't like switching into a Thunder Wave, and could be surprised and OHKOed by a boosted STAB Psychic, but, otherwise, either of the Grass-types can KO Slowbro when it is below 70% or 2HKO it while it is resting.</p>

    <p>Apart from these, Slowbro has no safe counters. Thunderbolt users are possible choices; the higher their critical hit ratio and the amount of turns they can resist Slowbro's Surf, the better counters they are. Starmie is a good choice, having a very high Speed and thus a high critical hit ratio, while also resisting all of Slowbro's moves. It's not a surefire counter though, and in case Starmie prevails, it won’t like having to eat a Thunder Wave. Gengar makes a good choice too, having a high critical hit ratio and being able to explode for around 50% damage when it's about to die. However, it doesn’t resist Surf and is weak to Psychic. Zapdos and Jolteon have the luxury of getting STAB in their Electric-type attacks; even when Slowbro is at +6, their Thunderbolts will still do significant damage. They also have a high critical hit ratio, but like Gengar, they don't resist Surf, and, unlike Gengar, can't explode. Regarding Explosion, it makes a very viable choice for taking Slowbro down when you have no other option. It won't OHKO a healthy Slowbro, but could put it in the KO range of Tauros's Hyper Beam or Rhydon or Golem's Earthquake. Pokemon with Explosion include Exeggutor, Snorlax, Golem, Cloyster, and Gengar, although Gengar's Explosion is weaker. A resting Slowbro that gets exploded on is pretty much a dead Slowbro.</p>

    <p>Amnesia Snorlax will often defeat Slowbro, as its Body Slam is an almost guaranteed 4HKO while Slowbro's Surf only manages a 5HKO when both are at +6. Due to the speed tie, a 4HKO could turn into a 3HKO, depending on who goes first the turn Slowbro uses Rest. If Snorlax is packing Thunderbolt instead, it will fare even better, 3HKOing Slowbro after both have set up. As far as the physical side goes, Rhydon makes a surprisingly viable option, although risky as well; it has to switch in when Slowbro uses Rest, and then try to 3HKO it with its STAB Earthquake, which will happen around 75-80% of the time. Tauros needs a critical hit Body Slam to get the chance to 3HKO it after finishing it off with a Hyper Beam. If Tauros gets paralyzed, though, you can pretty much forget about beating Slowbro. Snorlax's critical hit ratio is much smaller than Tauros's, but its Body Slam is almost a guaranteed 4HKO, and has an easier chance if Body Slam paralyzes Slowbro. For instance, if Snorlax moves first while Slowbro tries to rest, but moved last on the previous turn that Slowbro rested, Snorlax beats Snowbro with only Body Slam. Both Tauros and physical Snorlax should really be careful when trying to counter Slowbro and should generally only be sent in when Slowbro is sleeping because they will otherwise die to previous boosted Surfs more often than not.</p>

    <p>If Slowbro's set contains Reflect, though, trying to counter it with physical attacks becomes impractical unless you are willing to sacrifice at least two exploders. In this case, however, any unparalyzed Thunderbolt user becomes a much more effective check, including the slow ones, such as Chansey and Lapras which, despite their low critical hit rate, will get more chances to fish for it, as it's much more likely that Slowbro is forced to Rest more often. Chansey and especially Starmie will get the chance to keep using their recovery move until Slowbro gets fully paralyzed, which is when they get the chance to use Thunderbolt. Starmie is much better at doing this because Recover outlasts Surf in terms of PP.</p>

    <p>It's worth noting that Slowbro, as a Rest user, is one of those Pokemon that should be attacked whenever given the chance, because when it's resting you can apply a much higher and more effective variety of tactics to try to take it down. Exeggutor's Mega Drain or, Alakazam, and Jynx's Seismic Toss, for instance, may not do enough to kill Slowbro, but will cause some decent damage on it before forced to switch out, which will force it to Rest earlier than desired.</p>

    done
    Don't forget to take out the curly (’) apostrophes and replace them with the regular (') ones! It messes with the HTML. :( Other than tthat there were just some spelling mistakes.
  19. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    yup thanks!
  20. Worldtour

    Worldtour left: Hitmonchan right: rest of RU
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,487
    Why is this a 2/2 for GP? That was another non-stamped check you just got, so it is still a 1/2 I think.
  21. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    oh damn i'm stupid I never remember. I'm just so happy that's it finally gets checked that I forget about it...
  22. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Ruiner of Alph

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,352
    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Amnesia Slowbro has gone down in history as one of the most famous and well-known sets in the world of competitive Pokemon. Generally known as Tobybro, Amnesia Slowbro is a moveset that combines both simplicity and efficiency. The RBY version of Amnesia is arguably the best stat-boosting move of all time, raising the Special by two stages. It quickly powers up Slowbro's Special moves, while covering its main defensive weakness: Electric-type attacks. Having one of the best physical defense stats in the game and learning Thunder Wave to make up for its awful Speed greatly helps make Slowbro more threatening as well. However, Slowbro is also a bit of an all-or-nothing Pokemon and requires some luck, which are the reasons why it's often an underlooked Pokemon. Without setting up, Slowbro is basically a useless Pokemon; it can't Recover to work as a wall for a long time, and offensively, it lacks Explosion or a sleep move unlike other specially-based Pokemon. On the other hand, if Slowbro sets up, it's meant never to switch back, so the user is inevitably taking some risks; Electric-type moves fail to get past a +6 Slowbro normally, but with a critical hit,(comma) a non-STAB Thunderbolt will nearly OHKO Slowbro while a STAB Thunderbolt will OHKO outright. With critical hit rates being much higher in RBY than in later generations, it's not really "bad luck" when Slowbro ultimately ends up dying to a critical hit Thunderbolt. To a lesser extent, this can also be applied to the physical side, potentially turning 4HKOs into 3HKOs, letting a physical sweeper get past Rest. However, while it's true that Slowbro depends quite a bit on luck, it also requires a good deal of skill, and Slowbro can be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the first generation, being the best Amensia user in RBY after Mewtwo.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Tobybro
    move 1: Amnesia
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: Rest

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Everybody knows the set, but this doesn't make it less dangerous. Amnesia boosts Slowbro’'s decent Special, being able to reach the maximum 999 after three Amnesia boosts, letting Slowbro 2HKO Chansey with its STAB Surf at +6. When playing Slowbro, it's really useful to know some significant damage rolls or otherwise have a damage calculator handy. As said, Slowbro has a good chance of 2HKOing Chansey but must be at +6. The same can be said about Starmie, although a Base 999 Special STAB Surf is a guaranteed 2HKO. On the other hand, Starmie is much more of a problem for Slowbro due to having a much higher critical hit ratio. Beating Tauros is about using Amnesia once and then 2HKOing it with Surf, although a +4 Slowbro stands a good chance of OHKOing Tauros. Snorlax, however, requires Slowbro to use Amnesia twice to get the 2HKO; a +6 Surf almost never OHKOes Snorlax. Zapdos also requires two Amnesia boosts, while Jolteon, like Tauros, is 2HKOed by a +2 Surf. Gengar will die to two +2 Surfs half of the time, so it's generally advised to only Amnesia once. Exeggutor and Lapras are 3HKOed by a +6 Surf; boosting either twice or three times is the way to go. All these calculations have been made considering that the opposition is at full health,(comma) so they may vary depending on the health of the opponent as well as on the situation of the battle itself.</p>

    <p>Having said that, using Thunder Wave first is almost always a good idea. Slowbro is tied with Snorlax as the slowest Pokemon in the game, so paralyzing Snorlax is also a good idea to guarantee you are faster than it or to fish for full paralysis. Against common Slowbro switch-ins such as Starmie, Gengar, or Electric-types, Thunder Wave will have to be used as they switch in, so that you can get a boost before they are able to attack. However, it's generally advised to switch Slowbro back after paralyzing the switch-in to get the chance to move two consecutive times the next time they switch in. This way, you can maximize your chances of KOing said check before they are able to score a deadly critical hit Thunderbolt. Even if Starmie or Chansey paralyze you Slowbro back in order to outspeed again, using Thunder Wave yourself first was the best move, because the chances of beating unparalyzed Chansey and especially Starmie are slim, as they can just keep using Recover or Softboiled until you get Slowbro gets fully paralyzed and they get a chance to use Thunderbolt. An unparalyzed Starmie can also attempt to PP stall Slowbro out of Surfs as well.</p>

    <p>Rest is perfectly suited for Slowbro. During the setup, Slowbro generally takes some residual damage and gets paralyzed, but Rest can keep Slowbro healthy and free of status. After maximizing its Special, no special attack can get past Slowbro's Rest without a critical hit, and due to Slowbro's great Defense and lack of exploitable physical weaknesses, it's going to be hard to beat Slowbro from the physical side without Explosion. Tauros, for example, needs a critical hit Body Slam and Hyper Beam to 3HKO Slowbro, which is the only way it has to get past Rest; furthermore, if Tauros gets paralyzed, its chances of beating Slowbro become very small. Snorlax, meanwhile, will generally have to resort to Selfdestruct to take Slowbro down. On the other hand, Rhydon has the luxury of being able to 3HKO Slowbro with its powerful STAB Earthquake most of the time, but will have to switch into the predicted Rest and is OHKOed by even a +0 Surf. As said, Explosion makes a good way to eliminate Slowbro, but an Explosion might not even guarantee that a full health Slowbro goes down or gets revenge killed easily due to Slowbro’'s already mentioned great Defense. Exeggutor's Explosion, for instance, will only hit Slowbro for around 60%. Lowering Slowbro to around 80% or forcing it to Rest first is the safest way to ensure that one Explosion is enough to let a physical attacker such as Tauros, Golem, Rhydon, or Persian revenge kill it safely.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Reflect is a possible alternative to Thunder Wave, as it doesn't change the general concept of the set, but changes the way it works in some way, and some of its counters. The first thing to notice is the loss of Thunder Wave, which will be problematic in several matchups. Unless you can paralyze Starmie with another Pokemon, it will hard counter Slowbro. Other specially based Pokemon, such as Chansey, Lapras, Gengar, and Electric-types, will also become more problematic if you can't paralyze them;, because they will have a higher chance of scoring a critical hit Thunderbolt, as they will move first and avoid possible full paralysis. Lastly, Victreebel and Venusaur will have nothing to worry about a Slowbro lacking Thunder Wave unless its attacking move is Psychic. Letting Victreebel in for free could get especially problematic if it's packing Wrap.</p>

    <p>The reward of using Reflect comes from the physical side. It almost ensures that none of Snorlax, Golem, and Rhydon will have a chance to take Slowbro down due to their low critical hit rate. Tauros will have a lot of difficulties too, needing two critical hit Body Slams to beat Slowbro while it Rests. Reflect is also great for weakening Explosions, which is one of the most common and "safe" ways of getting rid of Slowbro; even Snorlax's Selfdestruct will only manage around 40% damage. Reflect makes double Explosions necessary to lower Slowbro to the point where it can be revenge killed, which, for the opponent, involves sacrificing at least two Pokemon.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Psychic is a STAB alternative to Surf, and trades 5 extra power for a 30% chance of scoring a Special fall. As far as type effectiveness is concerned, Psychic gains a neutral hit against Lapras and Cloyster and a super effective hit against Gengar and Victreebel, three of which are effective Slowbro checks, but loses the neutral hit against Alakazam as well as the ability to OHKO Golem and Rhydon at +0, needing two Amnesia boosts to OHKO them. Seismic Toss Alakazam in particular will have the opportunity to force you to Rest before Slowbro is able to get past it. Psychic's lower PP could also be a problem against users of recovery moves, especially considering that, without Surf, Alakazam will also require more time to take down. It could also be an issue if your opponent keeps using Recover or Softboiled and gets lucky with full paralysis. Having 8 less PP could also be significant in an odd Slowbro war.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is another attacking move Slowbro can use. Its biggest upside is hitting Grass-types and Zapdos for super effective damage, including Exeggutor and Victreebel. Ice Beam will often surprise Exeggutor, OHKOing it at +6. At the very least, it will force Exeggutor to use Explosion earlier, making it more predictable. Meanwhile, Zapdos is 2HKOed by a +2 Ice Beam and OHKOed when Slowbro is at +6. Ice Beam’s freeze chance might also save you in a pinch and could make a difference against another Slowbro or Amnesia Snorlax. Ice Beam, however, should only be used over Thunder Wave, because the STAB move is necessary to 2HKO Chansey and Starmie. Withdraw has the same goal as Reflect, with the difference that it can maximize Slowbro's Defense, but requires two turns to reach Reflect's potential. Reflect will generally turn out to be more useful and safer. Withdraw's high PP will let Slowbro outstall other Slowbro, however. Counter can surprise common Slowbro switch-ins like Starmie if you switch into a Body Slam from a physical attacker and scare it out, or if you predict a Hyper Beam. Counter has hardly any other uses other than these though, because Slowbro generally only takes physical attacks when it's asleep, excluding Explosion. Disable is a funny option that can prevent some Pokemon from Thunderbolting you for some time, but it's very unreliable and shouldn't really be used.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Starmie or Chansey packing Light Screen will completely counter Slowbro unless they get really unlucky with full paralysis. Light Screen is never seen on them, however, as it has no use outside of walling Slowbro. Victreebel and Venusaur are known for having a guaranteed critical hit in their STAB signature move, Razor Leaf. They won't like switching into a Thunder Wave, and could be surprised and OHKOed by a boosted STAB Psychic, but, otherwise, either of the Grass-types can KO Slowbro when it is below 70% or 2HKO it while it is resting.</p>

    <p>Apart from these, Slowbro has no safe counters. Thunderbolt users are possible choices; the higher their critical hit ratio and the amount of turns they can resist Slowbro's Surf, the better counters they are. Starmie is a good choice, having a very high Speed and thus a high critical hit ratio, while also resisting all of Slowbro's moves. It's not a surefire counter though, and in case Starmie prevails, it won’t like having to eat a Thunder Wave. Gengar makes a good choice too, having a high critical hit ratio and being able to explode for around 50% damage when it's about to die. However, it doesn’t resist Surf and is weak to Psychic. Zapdos and Jolteon have the luxury of getting STAB in their Electric-type attacks; even when Slowbro is at +6, their Thunderbolts will still do significant damage. They also have a high critical hit ratio, but like Gengar, they don't resist Surf, and, unlike Gengar, can't explode. Regarding Explosion, it makes a very viable choice for taking Slowbro down when you have no other option. It won't OHKO a healthy Slowbro, but could put it in the KO range of Tauros's Hyper Beam or Rhydon or Golem's Earthquake. Pokemon with Explosion include Exeggutor, Snorlax, Golem, Cloyster, and Gengar, although Gengar's Explosion is weaker. A resting Slowbro that gets exploded on is pretty much a dead Slowbro.</p>

    <p>Amnesia Snorlax will often defeat Slowbro, as its Body Slam is an almost guaranteed 4HKO while Slowbro's Surf only manages a 5HKO when both are at +6. Due to the speed tie, a 4HKO could turn into a 3HKO, depending on who goes first the turn Slowbro uses Rest. If Snorlax is packing Thunderbolt instead, it will fare even better, 3HKOing Slowbro after both have set up. As far as the physical side goes, Rhydon makes a surprisingly viable option, although risky as well; it has to switch in when Slowbro uses Rest, and then try to 3HKO it with its STAB Earthquake, which will happen around 75-80% of the time. Tauros needs a critical hit Body Slam to get the chance to 3HKO it after finishing it off with a Hyper Beam. If Tauros gets paralyzed, though, you can pretty much forget about beating Slowbro. Snorlax's critical hit ratio is much smaller than Tauros's, but its Body Slam is almost a guaranteed 4HKO, and has an easier chance if Body Slam paralyzes Slowbro. For instance, if Snorlax moves first while Slowbro tries to rest, but moved last on the previous turn that Slowbro rested, Snorlax beats Snowbro with only Body Slam. Both Tauros and physical Snorlax should really be careful when trying to counter Slowbro and should generally only be sent in when Slowbro is sleeping because they will otherwise die to previous boosted Surfs more often than not.</p>

    <p>If Slowbro's set contains Reflect, though, trying to counter it with physical attacks becomes impractical unless you are willing to sacrifice at least two exploders. In this case, however, any unparalyzed Thunderbolt user becomes a much more effective check, including the slow ones, such as Chansey and Lapras which, despite their low critical hit rate, will get more chances to fish for it, as it's much more likely that Slowbro is forced to Rest more often. Chansey and especially Starmie will get the chance to keep using their recovery move until Slowbro gets fully paralyzed, which is when they get the chance to use Thunderbolt. Starmie is much better at doing this because Recover outlasts Surf in terms of PP.</p>

    <p>It's worth noting that Slowbro, as a Rest user, is one of those Pokemon that should be attacked whenever given the chance, because when it's resting,(comma) you can apply a much higher and more effective variety of tactics to try to take it down. Exeggutor's Mega Drain, Alakazam, and Jynx's Seismic Toss, for instance, may not do enough to kill Slowbro, but will cause some decent damage on it before being forced to switch out, which will force it to Rest earlier than desired.</p>

    Now it's official, mate ;)
    [gp]2/2[/gp]
  23. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    haha, cool. Thanks Jellicent :)
  24. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,240
    uploaded

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)