Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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kamikaze

The King Of Games
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NU Leader
#1

Art by GenOne
Welcome to the DOU Viability Ranking project, where we rank the viability of Pokemon in DOU. This thread will proceed a little differently from the last one: the floor will always be open to discussion, and after a period of time (probably every 2 weeks), the viability rankings council will vote on any of the Pokemon being discussed and post the results and reasoning here. A Pokemon moving from UR to Ranked must receive both a majority and at least 3 votes of "yes" in order to be Ranked. The rankings and tier descriptions have been assigned to better each Pokemon's state within the metagame.​


>>VR Council<<
These users have the ultimate say on shifts in Viability rankings tiers. The council consists of experienced players who have different styles and perspectives to offer to the table when deciding the strength of any individual pokemon.
kamikaze
MajorBowman
marilli
Memoric
miltankmilk
qsns
shaian

>>Tier 1<<
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
Landorus-T
Marshadow
Mega Salamence
Tapu Fini

>>Tier 2<<
Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1
Aegislash
Amoonguss
Celesteela
Deoxys-A
Mega Gengar
Hoopa-U
Kyurem-B
Mega Metagross
Snorlax
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Tyranitar
Zapdos

>>Tier 3<<
Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1 and 1.5, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.
Mega Diancie
Ferrothorn
Mega Gardevoir
Genesect
Heatran
Kingdra
Mega Scizor
Mega Tyranitar
Volcanion
Zygarde

>>Tier 4<<
Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below
Azumarill
Bronzong
Mega Charizard-Y
Diancie
Mew
Pelipper
Scrafty
Mega Swampert
Tapu Bulu
Mega Venusaur
Victini

>>Tier 5<<
Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.
Mega Abomasnow
Mega Camerupt
Excadrill
Gothitelle
Kartana
Ludicolo
Milotic
Ninetales-A
Politoed
Porygon2
Rotom-W
Shaymin-Sky
Terrakion
Thundurus-T
Togekiss
Torkoal
Volcarona
Whimsicott

>>Blacklist<<
These pokemon arent allowed to be nommed temporarily on the VR due to being nommed every round but things not changing
Mimikyu
 
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#2
Alright I'll kick it off then.

Cresselia -> Tier 4
With the popularity of Char-y, Cress has been one of my favorite TR setters this gen. It also provides consistent icy wind support in a meta where speed control from t-wave has been essentially removed and 2 out of the 4 tier 1 mons are 4x week to it. It's definitely better than Necrozma. It can also form a nice psychic spam core with Tapu Lele.

Necrozma -> Tier 4
Once Eevium Z was banned this thing saw zero usage.
Edit:

Edit: Checkmater was right.
 
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#3
A few quick thoughts-

Rotom-Wash -> Tier 4

I've seen washtom possibly 3-4 times since Gen7 started, and it hasn't done much at all. Hates facing any of the tapus, skymin is back, rachi still annoying for it to deal with. It can't status stuff nearly as well as it could before, either. Would be nice to actually see it in games, though.

Araquanid -> UR
Why is this ranked? This may be usable in theory, but I haven't ever seen it being worth the slot it's used on. Loses to mence, skymin, all the tapus, and having one usable intimidate-weak stab makes it a huge momentum drag.

Thundurus-I -> Tier 3
Bulky thund-I is still really really good at support. Kind of forces you to use tapu bulu, but priority t-wave and taunt is amazing utility with mega mence and jirachi everywhere. Insurance against skymin is also always nice. Tbolt+HP ice still chunks a lot of the meta, and having an electric that can switch into celesteela is very useful. In general, it's still the same mon as it was before, but it now needs a bit of support for terrains.
 

miltankmilk

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#4
Araquanid -> UR
Why is this ranked? This may be usable in theory, but I haven't ever seen it being worth the slot it's used on. Loses to mence, skymin, all the tapus, and having one usable intimidate-weak stab makes it a huge momentum drag.
Don't talk shit about big spider. It hits incredibly hard and under trick room its really hard to stop. It also happens to act as a really solid rain check. Memo's used it against me enough to try it myself and it doesn't disappoint. It gets poison jab so it has a way to KO bulu, otherwise liquidation just drops things. Def worth having in the lower rankinga.
 
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Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
#5
Tier 2 -> Tier 1.5
I mean I get the nerfs to Parent Bond and the re-introduction to Mega Salamence do hurt Mega Kangaskhan's viability which is why yes it should drop from its Tier 1 status last gen, but I don't agree with a drop all the way down to Tier 2. Mega Kanga is still a staple on many semi-room and bulky offensive teams especially in a meta where Tapu Lele Psychic Spam Offense is so prevalent. It can still provide solid support with Fake Out (if Psychic Terrain is not up), and still hits like a truck even after the power nerfs due to its ability. I also seen people start using Seismic Toss and Icy Wind to really whittle down bulky targets such as Celesteela and Landorus-T/Mega Salamence respectively. Its not the best mega like it was last gen, but it is still way better then the other mons in its tier such as Mega Gengar, Milotic and Deoxys-A.

UR -> Tier 4
Again, although Gale Wings was significantly nerfed and Talonflame really is not as good as it once was, I still feel it deserves a spot on the VR due to how well it can support its teammates and even sweep on its own as times. With the nerf, it cannot do these things as consistently obviously as it needs to be at full HP to abuse its amazing ability, but I have seen people start using Flynium Z to break down threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Azumarill as of late. The new meta trends such as Psychic Terrain and Mega Salamence's re-introduction do not help it, but I still feel Talonflame holds a specific niche in this metagame (breaking down offensive teams), to hold a spot on the VR.
 
#6
Heatran is a top tier mon.
There are so few fighting mons in this gen. It's match up against Jirachi and salamence is second to none. It has so many options from standard sub or three attacks Shuca to niche Roar and HP ice. Even gets some help paired with bulu so with Shuca you take a neutral hit from EQ and such. It really has a small number of threats. When I am teambuilding I place Heatran in the same class as salamence in terms of making sure that I have multiple ways to beat it
 
#7
Vicitini~ UR --> Tier 4
Victini is usually never needed, but I still feel like it deserves a place in the VR. Its STAB move, V-Create hits like a Z-move, and it got good coverage with Bolt Strike, Final Gambit, and U-turn, too. I assume that you can use it as a TR setter, too, but I haven't seen anyone using that yet. But what I have seen is someone using the move Glaciate, basically a stronger Icy Wind.
 
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#8
New thread new me

Hoopa-U Tier 1.5 -> 2:
This mon isn't really good enough to be alongside pokemon such as Celesteela, Tapu Lele, and Heatran. It instead is more of in line with pokemon such as Milotic and Skymin. It suffers from its (still) terrible speed tier where most pokemon that outspeed it, such as Lando and Tapu Lele, can do significant damage to it. While its special bulk is much better in the current meta, many popular special attackers, such as Zard-Y and Lele, can beat it. It is also weak to intimidate since it lowers the damage down by its main stab (Hyperspace Fury) and is easily checked by Lando or Scrafty. While its best set is semi-room, even that set suffers from being a pretty fast mon in semi-room, often being undersped by Araquanid and Celesteela, both of which can beat it 1v1. It is still a good mon, it is just not on the level of other pokemon in tier 1.5.

Sylveon Tier 3 -> Tier 4: Who uses this, it just loses vs all of our steels and fires, and it doesn't have a useful secondary STAB like anyone of the Tapu's. Spread Hyper voice is cool, but definitely not a niche worthy of tier 3.
 
#9
New thread new me
Hoopa-U Tier 1.5 -> 2: This mon isn't really good enough to be alongside pokemon such as Celesteela, Tapu Lele, and Heatran. It instead is more of in line with pokemon such as Milotic and Skymin. It suffers from its (still) terrible speed tier where most pokemon that outspeed it, such as Lando and Tapu Lele, can do significant damage to it. While its special bulk is much better in the current meta, many popular special attackers, such as Zard-Y and Lele, can beat it. It is also weak to intimidate since it lowers the damage down by its main stab (Hyperspace Fury) and is easily checked by Lando or Scrafty. While its best set is semi-room, even that set suffers from being a pretty fast mon in semi-room, often being undersped by Araquanid and Celesteela, both of which can beat it 1v1. It is still a good mon, it is just not on the level of other pokemon in tier 1.5.
I really disagree with this lol tr hoopa thrives in a special oriented meta focused on fast HO builds where it literally wins games. Ability to break tect is helpful as always and really helps it make the most of tr turns. Speed isn't rly an issue when it gets a p good speed control move and can set up fairly reliably on quite a lot of the behemoth special attackers of the meta. Its shit def holds it back yeah but like its ability to 6-0 frail ho teams with the tr set, raw power and dual stab that breaks protect makes up for it lol
 
#10
Volcanion Tier 4 -> 3

"Pokemon whose roles are almost never needed, and in most cases weigh the team down due to their use" seems a bit harsh imo. This thing is still pretty good, and although it certainly suffers due to the introduction of new top tier threats such as Mega Salamence, Tapu Koko, and others, its STAB coverage is fantastic in a meta heavy on Steel-types. I've been using a Firium Z set with Steam Eruption / Heat Wave / Protect / Filler, and it's been quite effective. Having a single target nuke option is super nice, since Volcanion's damage output can be underwhelming and it lets you bypass Wide Guard. It also has a some good new partners in Tapu Bulu, DDance Zygarde, and TWind Mega Salamence. Perhaps its greatest weakness is its awkward middling speed tier, but Volcanion has a solid niche and is certainly worthy of tier 3.
 

Yellow Paint

I adore fishies, so shiny and cute!
is a Tiering Contributor
#11
Tier 3: Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.
Tier 4: Pokemon whose roles are almost never needed, and in most cases weigh the team down due to their use. Pokemon in this tier are far more situational and costly than those in higher tiers.

Doesn't this seem like too big of a gap? Tier 3 sounds like a fairly niche mon that "can still perform excellently", while Tier 4 is pretty much "not worth using". Combined with the big power increase compared to last gen's VR, this makes people want to nom stuff up to 3 because many of the mons in 4 genuinely do have niches (weather, TR, positive matchups against top tier mons).

How about Tier 4: Pokemon with severe flaws, but may still fulfill a niche on certain teams or archetypes. Pokemon in this tier are more situational and costly than those in higher tiers. (please write a better version if you can)
This also creates a barrier to entry for UR-->4 noms. You can't exactly protest noms using the current description because it literally has no positive criteria to test for.

e: and can we have an "everything else" description at the bottom? I think it'd be helpful for newcomers, especially at the start of a new gen.
 
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Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
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#13
Bump Metagross up to Tier 2 and drop Lando-T to Tier 1.5 imho. Metagross has amazing speed and resistances, and benefits from pretty much all the terrains (except for perhaps Electric Terrain unless THUNDER PUNCH). Deals with prominent threats like Tapus, Mence, Zygarde, Lando-T, and Skymin relatively well. I personally believe it is better than Kangaskhan and on par with Gengar.

Lando-T has become awkward to use with Grassy Terrain forcing many Lando-T to go special or forego Scarf for Groundium Z. Physical variants are set-up bait for DDMence & Celesteela, whereas special Lando-T can't really do much against many specially bulky mons like Celesteela (again), Tapu Lele, Charizard Y (if lacking Stone Edge) or Hoopa-U (if lacking U-turn). The inclusion of Zygarde broke Lando-T's monopoly as the Ground-type in Doubles, and the rise in Milotic's usage doesn't help it at all. It's still an excellent Pokemon, but it lost it's influence in the metagame and should not be in the same rank as Charizard, Salamence, and Jirachi, IMO.

I would consider bumping Heatran up to Tier 1 in place of Lando-T tbh. It was a top tier mon in ORAS, and it has only gotten more versatile this gen with Firium Z Eruption, Bloom Doom, Shuca + HP Ice. Mega Mence doesn't quite do well against Tran unless it has EQ or Roost, and even then Z-Eruption has a good chance to KO Mence in sun and Shucatran still wins.
 
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#14
Bump Metagross up to Tier 2 and drop Lando-T to Tier 1.5 imho. Metagross has amazing speed and resistances, and benefits from pretty much all the terrains (except for perhaps Electric Terrain unless THUNDER PUNCH). Deals with prominent threats like Tapus, Mence, Zygarde, Lando-T, and Skymin relatively well. I personally believe it is better than Kangaskhan and on par with Gengar.
On the topic of Metagross, I think it's also worth noting that under psychic terrain its Zen Headbutt ohkos most of the Fire types that traditionally checked it, bar Heatran. Charizard needs significant Def investment to live Zen Headbutt and Volcarona is easily killed as long as you catch it before it sets up. It really has good matchups against all the megas besides Gengar. Bulky steels absolutely wall it, so if there's a case to keep it in tier 3, that's it. But besides Steels none of the other Tier 1/1.5 mons give Meta trouble and I think it deserves to be tier 2. Even Lando is a shakey check at best because Ice Punch can kill it if it doesn't get off an Earthquake first.
 
#15
How about Tier 4: Pokemon with severe flaws, but may still fulfill a niche on certain teams or archetypes. Pokemon in this tier are more situational and costly than those in higher tiers. (please write a better version if you can)
I'd have the niche first, then severe flaws. The emphasis should be on the limited applications, because it's clear by that that most teams won't need them. I'd also put things that can only work in all-in theme teams in there, since both Drizzlers are already in there.
 
#16
Hey, I'm pretty inexperienced in Doubles so take this with a grain of salt.

Can Ninetales-Alola be ranked? I used this in a bunch of matches on low ladder and I found it pretty useful when paired up with setup sweepers. The main one I used alongside it was Dragon Dance Zygarde because it is really bulky and has good synergy with Ninetales (able to take Heat Wave, Iron Head, etc). Aurora Veil is obviously the only reason to use Ninetales-A and I found it to be quite good in doubles. I mean, nobody runs Defog, and Ninetales is really fast so it makes it kind of easy to set up. You have 7 turns to abuse the effects which is longer than other environment strats like Trick Room- although many of those turns might be stalled out with Protect or switching, at minimum it will still help you out for at least 3 turns in the battle.

Finally, Ninetales is no slouch offensively either since Blizzard is a good spread move that hits pokemon like Landorus and Mega Salamence which are really common. Also Hail breaks Focus Sashes like Deoxys's which is always useful. :toast:

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-520161868
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-520165651

(my opponents' don't have the best teams but you can see the potential)
 
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#17
hi hello friends


Bronzong: 4 -> 3

I believe this is really underrated as a Trick Room setter in the current meta. Bronzong has the same excellent typing as Jirachi which allows it to take on common threats such as Mega Salamence and Tapu Lele. Bronzong isn't completely outclassed by Jirachi since Bronzong has access to both Hypnosis which can heavily cripple the opponents team especially with Z-Trick Room which raises the user's accuracy, and Heatproof / Levitate which helps it against Mega Charizard Y or Landorus-T. I believe it better fits the Tier 3 description, since it can preform excellently on Trick Room teams, but isn't really used anywhere else.


Diancie: 4 -> 3

Diancie by itself got buffed this generation since Diamond Storm now has a 50% chance to raise the user's Defense stat by 2 stages instead of 1. It destroys the two most common Mega Evolutions in Charizard and Salamence, can't get Intimidated, hits extremely hard by itself while consistency gaining Stat boots, even without the possible Weakness Policy, and can consistency set Trick Room vs. almost everything in the tier. Steel-types do fuck it but I believe that is outweighed by its benefits.
 

finally

how can you swallow so much sleep
#18
I think
Azumarill should go from tier 2 --> 3
This is because salamence hyper voice can seriously dent it behind a follow me jirachi. Also because tapu lele and tapu koko give azumarill a lot of trouble. The former stops azumarill in its tracks and the latter kills azumarill if you dont have your jirachi follow me'ing.
A lot of the time, milotic is a better water type (to help beat landorus-t) than azumarill. What I'm tryna say is that milotic should usually be used in lieu of azumarill, and thus azumarill should go a tier lower.

Also
Landorus-I should go from tier 3--> 4
Intimidate is a really important factor of using a landorus. The speed landorus-i has over landorus-t is not really as important anymore because there are so many things that are faster than 101 base speed now. The special attack is cool, but the pivoting/tankiness part of a landorus is more important. Intimidate and assault vest on landorus-t let landorus-t do the job a lot better than life orb landorus-i.
Also 252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-Therian: 255-302 (79.9 - 94.6%)
 
#19
back again once again


Celesteela: Tier 1.5 -> Tier 2

This is probably one of the most overhyped Pokemon this generation. The main appeal of Celesteela is the ability to be a Steel-type while also beating Landorus-T. However, when you send in Cele to check Lando, you need to wait 14 turns for Leech Seed to finally kill Lando while all your partners now. It's like the 5th best Cele after Jirachi, Heatran, Aegislash, and Metagross. Even Bronzong and Genesect are debatably better than this thing. It's the Ferrothorn of Gen 7, it's overhyped since it's bulky, but it sucks away offensive momentum from your side of the field and is outclassed by other Steels. Please drop it lol
 

miltankmilk

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#20
back again once again


Celesteela: Tier 1.5 -> Tier 2

This is probably one of the most overhyped Pokemon this generation. The main appeal of Celesteela is the ability to be a Steel-type while also beating Landorus-T. However, when you send in Cele to check Lando, you need to wait 14 turns for Leech Seed to finally kill Lando while all your partners now. It's like the 5th best Cele after Jirachi, Heatran, Aegislash, and Metagross. Even Bronzong and Genesect are debatably better than this thing. It's the Ferrothorn of Gen 7, it's overhyped since it's bulky, but it sucks away offensive momentum from your side of the field and is outclassed by other Steels. Please drop it lol
I'm not a big steela advocate but you're really underselling it here. You have to wait 14 turns? Are you not clicking Heavy Slam that basically hits with 120 BP on everything? It also takes on mence pretty well and opposing steels, so of Tier 1 you wall 3 of them. Like I'm not trying to nom it up because its definitely still like the 3rd best Steel defensively, and that's where its merits lie, but its offense isnt laughable, leach seed is annoying as shit and it takes neutral hits really well. Just leave cele be and can we stop nomming it elsewhere.
 
#21
back again once again


Celesteela: Tier 1.5 -> Tier 2

This is probably one of the most overhyped Pokemon this generation. The main appeal of Celesteela is the ability to be a Steel-type while also beating Landorus-T. However, when you send in Cele to check Lando, you need to wait 14 turns for Leech Seed to finally kill Lando while all your partners now. It's like the 5th best Cele after Jirachi, Heatran, Aegislash, and Metagross. Even Bronzong and Genesect are debatably better than this thing. It's the Ferrothorn of Gen 7, it's overhyped since it's bulky, but it sucks away offensive momentum from your side of the field and is outclassed by other Steels. Please drop it lol
Celesteela is pretty influential on how you build teams in this meta. If you don't have a solid answer or two to Celesteela (aka strong Fire and Electric attackers), it can easily wall your whole team and win games. Is it a bit passive? Absolutely. But Heavy Slam hits respectably hard and it can easily wall teams unprepared for it, so imo Tier 1.5 is where it belongs.
 
#22
Why is Kingdra ranked higher than either rain setter? You're never going to see Kingdra without either one of Politoed/Pellipper. IMO, Kingdra+drizzle basically represents the rain archetype as a whole and should be tiered together.

Celesteela is pretty influential on how you build teams in this meta. If you don't have a solid answer or two to Celesteela (aka strong Fire and Electric attackers), it can easily wall your whole team and win games. Is it a bit passive? Absolutely. But Heavy Slam hits respectably hard and it can easily wall teams unprepared for it, so imo Tier 1.5 is where it belongs.
I don't think anybody is unprepared for Celesteela. Every team needs some way to kill Steels, and Lando-T isn't really that great of an answer to Steel types (Grassy terrain exists, Jirachi can annoy it with Icy wind and Shuca Heatran can lure it with HP Ice). So more people have started to run Fires and Zygarde, both of which beat Celesteela handily. Electrics are pretty common too, mainly because Mence is a massive threat.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
is a Pre-Contributor
#23
As for an explanation of Kingdra

It's really not about usage rates, it's about how good they are. Politoed probably gets equal usage about to Kingdra (or imagine it did) Kingdra should still be higher because when you run Politoed you're accepting a 5.5v6, and several different weaknesses for the sake of making your kingdra a very powerful force. Their current positions fit the definitions quite well. Just because Kingdra has to be with a rain setter doesn't make said setters on the same tier

And since I'm writing something up anyways
Amoonguss -> 2
It deserves at least 2. It may not be the same force it used to be, but it still fares quite well vs koko, is really good on Trick Room, and in general has a lot of the same functionality it once did.

Fini -> 1.5
Seems like a good place right now, it's a great hoopa counter, particularly of psychic spam hoopa with heatran as a partner. Gotten great usage, cm set is flames, etc. Only physical attacker that can smack it is mence really. Self-swag is lowkey flames

Heatran -> 1
Look at the current teams, if something doesn't have zard it ~80% of the time has a tran. Gained new sets this gen that should be known, and singlehandedly crowds out almost every other fire type from the meta. Why don't we see more volcarona, blaziken, zard? Because 90% of the time just slap tran and your team is better.

Sylveon -> UR
thing's going to duu, there's very little reason to use it. I put it on my first team until people started using tran again and then it was gone forever.

Opposing Volcanion to 3 because its not just its speed that holds it back, it has terrible typing for the current meta, walled by mence without walling it back, and generally hasn't performed afaik besides inferno nuking a gengar vs kylecole.

Getting behind zong->3, it's the only other good setter outside rachi/hoops, keeps itself healthy/fends for itself by threatening everything with hypno, though it should be noted you frequently encounter awkward situations where they're going to wake soon and you can't really stop them, so it needs offensive partners for sure.

Hoopa->2 is stupid a bad idea, it has more than proven its worth, could easily be 1 but fini as an anti-hoops tech is really interesting and we'll have to see where things go I suppose.

I can also get behind Kang->1.5 because it has been great thusfar. Essentially, its very different from the old Kangaskhan, but it actually functions not only as a great landot counter but also a really good anti-lando lead: they want to u-turn but their bulky switchin (tran, guss, zappy, etc) gets chunked.

And as a general note we could delete like at least 1/3 of tier 4 without losing anything really..
 
#24
Can someone explain why cress isnt on this list? Its the only non-steel type (jirachi/heatran/celesteela/aegislash) that can survive deo-a+tapu lele and set up Trick Room guaranteedly or use icy wind and also helping hand
Also, its sooo bulky it can make sure it isnt 2hkoed by return mega mence (without even using an hp recovering item) and retaliate with icy wind
 
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#25
hoopa -> 1

Hoopa is easily the best and pretty much the only viable offensive TR setter given the special bulk needed to reliably set trick room considering the fake out nerf. With the advent of the tapu's, other dark types like scrafty and hydreigon that are pretty much the only thing that wall his stabs are nonexistant. The special shift in the meta and fall of kang and lack of diancie has obviously been great as well.

tapu koko -> 1

koko is absolutely meta defining. Electric terrain has singlehandedly caused amoonguss to fall off the map. Also simply having your own terrain is valuable since you can rob your opponent of their's. Koko is one of the few options who can take down a jirachi protected mega salamence. 394 is a killer good speed. The low special attack pretty much necessitates that you need a life orb and cant run focus sash, but that is literally my only complaint. He gets a myriad of interesting options for the 3rd slot like volt switch, taunt and sky drop. He gives rain a go to option to slay zard even in sun, and beats dragons for zard. If you want a fast electric, you simply always go tapu koko.

lando -> 1.5

dont get me wrong, lando is still really good, but not quite as good as last gen. Diancie and kang are gone, and while lando still can intimidate salamence, mence intimidates you right back and landos matchup still sucks against it. Lando still threatens a ton of shit, but its much harder to switch him in this gen.
 
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