Resource SM Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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Most of these nominations are going to based around 2 trends in the post-Marshadow metagame: how damn good Marshadow is and the huge spike in Stealth Rock usage.

- Marshadow is extremely hard to switch into and definitely seems to be the best Pokemon in the tier right now. While teambuilding, finding switchins to it is damn near impossible and revenge killing is often the best way to take it out.

- Stealth Rock has been seeing waaay more usage on Pokemon like Lando-T and especially Ferrothorn wear down teams for late game cleaners such as the rising MScizor. These work especially well vs balances, as it's a lot harder to switch into strong moves like LO Spectral Thief if you've taken 12-25% on each of your Pokemon.

These two trends really shift the power away from the balance builds that dominated the pre-Marshadow metagame. I believe offense is the best playstyle right now and I'm making some nominations accordingly.


Tapu Fini 1 -> 1.5

Fini's passiveness is really biting it in the ass in this metagame as it struggles to do much besides take a few Spectral Thiefs and fire off a Moonblast or two. It's still good, don't get me wrong, but it is far from the titan it was during the Swagger days. Though it has the highest usage in Snake Tour, I believe it's more of a reflection of some players' building tendencies rather than Fini being absolutely insane. It defines balance but I don't think that playstyle is great right now and Marshadow / Lando-T / Salamence are all leagues ahead in viability and splashability ON ALL TEAM TYPES compared to Tapu Fini.


Deoxys Attack 2 -> 1.5

Long time coming. Key player on many offense teams, especially the Psyspam variants. The discovery of the Psychium sets give this thing a whole new level of power - if you're using Sash on this, chances are, you're not using this optimally. Straight up OHKOing Tapu Fini outside of Psy Terrain and 0HP Heatran in it is sickening levels of power. Deo-A isn't just a one-trick pony with Lele either - see my Snake game vs. Bowman for an example. Coverage Z moves are lethal and work especially well in pressuring steels to open up holes for partners.

The best way for most teams to deal with this Pokemon is to trade 1 for 1 with it, and that IS the best case scenario. Often, a well-positioned Deo-A can get 2-3 kills in any stage of the game and either smashes teams into submission or cleans with ease.


Mega Scizor 4 -> 2

I know this was nommed to 3 but that doesn't really do it justice. This mon probably benefits the most from SR as it targets the Fires like CharY and Volcanion that stop +2 BP from sweeping. In general, chip is very nice for MSciz. It also benefits from the increase in Marshadow offense builds because this performs a lot better when it can slice through teams with BP instead of its slow Bug Bites. I don't think this is a Snake Tour fad and will continue to see usage afterwards.


Entire Tiering System 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 -> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

The 1.5 tier is asinine and does absolutely nothing to help newer players. The gap between the tiers is entirely arbitrary (the difference between 1 and 1.5 is not bigger than 2 and 3 what) and the first two tiers aren't special for that. It's inconsistent, confusing, generally stupid and bothers me to no end. Could we please fix this garbage
Fini is absolutely not "passive" it can be given ether a calm mind, or choice specs set. If given specs it is instantly deadly with about 450 spATK. It can destroy tyranitar, heatran, marsh, and other huge threats in the tier
 
Fini is absolutely not "passive" it can be given ether a calm mind, or choice specs set. If given specs it is instantly deadly with about 450 spATK. It can destroy tyranitar, heatran, marsh, and other huge threats in the tier
Specs Fini works a lot better when you don't expect it; surprise sets usually aren't as effective. In Fini's case, it doesn't really help your matchup against other terrain setters (which you usually need Fini for) and makes your good matchups slightly worse because you can't switch into Heat Waves and such as well. Specs Fini also faces some stiff competition with Life Orb Volcanion and offensive Lele as a special attacker.
 
Specs Fini works a lot better when you don't expect it; surprise sets usually aren't as effective. In Fini's case, it doesn't really help your matchup against other terrain setters (which you usually need Fini for) and makes your good matchups slightly worse because you can't switch into Heat Waves and such as well. Specs Fini also faces some stiff competition with Life Orb Volcanion and offensive Lele as a special attacker.
Specs fini works well no matter what. It crippled many threats with acuracy loss muddy water, checks mega mence, destroys tyranitar no matter what move it's locked into, and is very bulky. Also many people will try to taunt it expecting a calm mind
 
but those are all things Fini can do without Choice Specs...

Specs Fini isn't a bad set, it's just not as consistent or reliable as the more standard Fini sets (which are all quite passive, including the Calm Mind set)
I understand, but specs fini can work better if you want it to be able to hit extreamly hard fast. Calm mind fini needs to set up twice to have the same raw power as specs, and my main team is a hyper-offensive team and is extreamly fast paced. The only time I set up is if my heatran or fini can ether force a switch or get a double KO. Then I will set up DD on my mega mence. And I also need to mention that many many people will try (and fail) to taunt trap calm mind fini and fail. Calm mind fini can be better on more defensive teams, or teams that are bulkier and more slower paced then mine. But for me specs works very very well and I'm sticking to it

Don't talk shit about big spider. It hits incredibly hard and under trick room its really hard to stop. It also happens to act as a really solid rain check. Memo's used it against me enough to try it myself and it doesn't disappoint. It gets poison jab so it has a way to KO bulu, otherwise liquidation just drops things. Def worth having in the lower rankinga.
But it can't touch a lot of common mons in the meta, even under TR. plus TR teams are becoming less and less popular, people are moving more records tailwind teams, and big spider is too slow to effectively run on a tailwind team.

I really disagree with this lol tr hoopa thrives in a special oriented meta focused on fast HO builds where it literally wins games. Ability to break tect is helpful as always and really helps it make the most of tr turns. Speed isn't rly an issue when it gets a p good speed control move and can set up fairly reliably on quite a lot of the behemoth special attackers of the meta. Its shit def holds it back yeah but like its ability to 6-0 frail ho teams with the tr set, raw power and dual stab that breaks protect makes up for it lol
If you legitimately think that hoopa-u should be in 2 your just an idiot and have no idea about anything in the meta. Their is no other word to describe you. Hoopa-U is probably the only mon in the tier, and one of the only mons in the game that can effectively run every choice item. It also is the only mon in the tier that can run an effective offensive TR set. It's also able to outspeed, and OHKO every single tapu with a scarf and gunk shot, it also has 2 fantastic moves hyperspace fury/space. It also can OHKO the 3 most common mons in the meta, marshadow, lando-T and mega mence. It works very well as a late game sweeper with scarf, or it can raise hell as a lead and outspeed/OHKO a lot of common leads

Bump Metagross up to Tier 2 and drop Lando-T to Tier 1.5 imho. Metagross has amazing speed and resistances, and benefits from pretty much all the terrains (except for perhaps Electric Terrain unless THUNDER PUNCH). Deals with prominent threats like Tapus, Mence, Zygarde, Lando-T, and Skymin relatively well. I personally believe it is better than Kangaskhan and on par with Gengar.

Lando-T has become awkward to use with Grassy Terrain forcing many Lando-T to go special or forego Scarf for Groundium Z. Physical variants are set-up bait for DDMence & Celesteela, whereas special Lando-T can't really do much against many specially bulky mons like Celesteela (again), Tapu Lele, Charizard Y (if lacking Stone Edge) or Hoopa-U (if lacking U-turn). The inclusion of Zygarde broke Lando-T's monopoly as the Ground-type in Doubles, and the rise in Milotic's usage doesn't help it at all. It's still an excellent Pokemon, but it lost it's influence in the metagame and should not be in the same rank as Charizard, Salamence, and Jirachi, IMO.

I would consider bumping Heatran up to Tier 1 in place of Lando-T tbh. It was a top tier mon in ORAS, and it has only gotten more versatile this gen with Firium Z Eruption, Bloom Doom, Shuca + HP Ice. Mega Mence doesn't quite do well against Tran unless it has EQ or Roost, and even then Z-Eruption has a good chance to KO Mence in sun and Shucatran still wins.
Are you legitimately thinking of moving lando-T to 1.5? It has an excellent ability in intimidate, fantastic offensive type, great speed with scarf. It has access to intimidate-turn, and works fantastically at getting rid of mons that are dependent on items with knock off. It is probably one of the best mons in the tier, and should never even be considered to be lowered.
 
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Dude, the comments you responded to were made nine months ago. Are you just trying to start a fight? Cool your jets buddy. And to avoid one-liners...

Tapu Koko 1.5 > 1

I think that Tapu Koko's current performance in Snake (4th used/highest w/l, above Tier 1 mon Mega-Mence), as well as the shift to more offense oriented teams, has shifted the meta to its favor. Tapu Koko has seen success in a wide variety of team archetypes, including semiroom (some of which were shown in Snake). It has a generally winning matchup against 3/4 current Tier 1 mons (as well as being capable of OHKOing some variants of Lando-T), and fares well against rain teams, sun teams, and some finizap balance teams. It can viably run not only its specially offensive sets, but also AV sets. Electric Terrain offers decent support to the team, removing opposing terrain, blocking sleep and powering up Electric attacks for itself, Kyu-B, PZ, and whatever other grounded mon in your team you decide to run Electric attacks on. Tapu Koko hits fast, hits hard (at least with Electric attacks), is effective at nearly any point in a match, and demands consideration in teambuilding with its cleanup/breaking/support (sort of) prowess. This is why I nominate Tapu Koko to Tier 1.
 

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Re-nominating this because it is time


UR -> 4
Not many things have changed since I last nominated this: Gothitelle is still amazing at messing up bulky offense, which relies heavily on switching to take advantage of its defensive synergy. It's especially good with Pokemon which have highly polarizing matchups, such as Mega Scizor or Volcanion: a lot of Pokemon either beat it hard or lose hard to it. It's not completely outclassed by Mega Gengar due to its ability to trap from Turn 1 and its added bulk, ability to hold an item, and the fact that it doesn't take up a Mega slot. imo now that it's seen some tournament success Gothitelle warrants a spot in the VR.

also time for a more controversial nom:


1.5 -> 1
This is basically the best glue Pokemon of all time. AV Kyub fits on like literally every team and provides an unparalleled combination of bulk, speed control, and actual offensive prowess. Not to mention that it absolutely snacks on Landorus-T and Mega Salamence (and Tapu Fini too, with terrain support?).
 

miltankmilk

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Kartana UR-> 4 (or 3 but 4 is aight)
Kartana is a mon thats picking up steam pretty quickly and I think it definitely deserves to be ranked. Steelium is what I think is the best set due to its ability to ohko Kyurem-B but grassium or sash would also be OK options just I haven't personally used them. Kart is worth ranking due to its great matchup vs the Fini/Kyu-b/Ferrothorn type builds that kart really dominates. It hits so hard that even intimidate doesn't really stop it while also dealing really good damage to Lando with leaf blade.
Here are a few replays although I'm sure I'm missing some of the good ones:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-327596 - marilli vs demantoid for DLT
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-652313901 - marilli vs zikam for dlt r2
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-325486 - me vs bowman for snake, I can't speak for him but I thought kart pressured him pretty well, he just pivoted very well to get marsh in when I had to recover. Kart still pressured exactly what its supposed to pressure.
 
Re-nominating this because it is time


UR -> 4
Not many things have changed since I last nominated this: Gothitelle is still amazing at messing up bulky offense, which relies heavily on switching to take advantage of its defensive synergy. It's especially good with Pokemon which have highly polarizing matchups, such as Mega Scizor or Volcanion: a lot of Pokemon either beat it hard or lose hard to it. It's not completely outclassed by Mega Gengar due to its ability to trap from Turn 1 and its added bulk, ability to hold an item, and the fact that it doesn't take up a Mega slot. imo now that it's seen some tournament success Gothitelle warrants a spot in the VR.

also time for a more controversial nom:


1.5 -> 1
This is basically the best glue Pokemon of all time. AV Kyub fits on like literally every team and provides an unparalleled combination of bulk, speed control, and actual offensive prowess. Not to mention that it absolutely snacks on Landorus-T and Mega Salamence (and Tapu Fini too, with terrain support?).
I disagree on the kyub moving to 1, I agree it's very useful, but it has horrible defensive typing for the tier, and it's not super fast. It can be very very useful, but it's easy to kill
 
I disagree on the kyub moving to 1, I agree it's very useful, but it has horrible defensive typing for the tier, and it's not super fast. It can be very very useful, but it's easy to kill
Clearly you have no idea what kyub does in sm. av kyub is literally the definition of hard to kill and is 3hkod by a lot of super effective hits (e.g. m scizor bp) and can often take 4/5 hits to ko, which is more than enough to throw off a couple of icy winds/hit fini with a fusion bolt etc. its typing means it is a phenomenal rain check (kingdras dont run draco often anymore) while matching up very well vs 3 of the tapus (and lele too kind of). av kyub is on the lando t level of splashable atm.

Also:

Victini to Tier 3
Victini is another one of the recent resurgent fires in the meta atm and the scarf set is really quite terrifying. It hits a good speed with scarf but also has amazing bulk, while also being able to almost guarantee a 1 for 1 trade with final gambit. isnt that one of the reasons deo a is being suspected? v create hits stupidly hard too even without a boosting item
 

kamikaze

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Ferrothorn 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: god this is hard. I think I am 2 though

MajorBowman: This is tough. I think this is the best meta for Ferrothorn out of any doubles meta it’s been allowed in (either VGC or DOU), but it still somewhat suffers from matchup syndrome. It’s very good against some stuff and very bad against some stuff, but it just so happens that the stuff it’s bad against is pretty sparse right now. Given the current meta, I think I’d go with 1.5, but if the meta shifts and we see more anti-Ferrothorn mons rise I’d drop it right back down to 2.

Memoric: 2, it’s really good but will always be haunted by the fact that certain mus hound it.

miltankmilk: I love ferro but I think 2 is the correct spot for it. As great as it is defensively, it can be a big momentum suck, using poprocks as an option requires dropping leech or gyro (both of which suck to lose). I think 2 is a fine place for it.

qsns: I really think Ferrothorn is overrated and too passive for a rise. Volcanion spike in usage + teams prepping for it more sucks because even the threat of a fire-type move makes this useless due to its speed.

shaian: Ironically i think ferrothorn moving up to 2 is the exact reason it wont be able to move up to 1.5 since it has basically forced every team to pack one or two options to deal with it. I don’t think its necessarily matchup dependant anymore, but rather its success depends on how well its teammates can prepare for the random techs used for it, like a random HP Fire on kyurem, heat wave zap, etc.

Mega Swampert 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Yes. I nommed this

MajorBowman: A while ago I might have said 2, but I agree with miltankmilk that rain is often better off without Swampert. Still a solid mon and hits super hard under the right circumstances, but a little bit too weak when you can catch it outside the rain.

Memoric: Abstain. I’ve used this and think it can be pretty good for sure but it can be a bit wonky + kingdra w/ another mega is p better. I’m quite unsure.

miltankmilk: No, I think the most threatening rain teams don’t even include pert. Pert requires multiple pokemon dedicated to supporting it for it to really thrive so I think 3 is an OK place for it.

qsns: Yes, Swampert is extremely threatening and gives rain teams more variety in their threats. It evens up the physical/special split that usually favors the latter on rain and Superpower can weaken the common rain threats of Ferrothorn and Kyurem-B. I like my rain with pert

shaian: No. I didn’t nom this. Swampert is extremely threatening and gives rain teams more variety in their threats. However it provides generally redundant coverage and most rain teams are better served with kingdra + another mega.

Rotom-W UR -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

Memoric: :’)

miltankmilk: Sure, bowman and Sam have convinced me that this thing’s decent enough to be ranked. Defensive typing is solid, not horribly weak and can status things effectively.

qsns: Okay. It doesn’t play like other water types, wisp isnt as common but it does work well against a few mons so 4 is fine. Probably better than most things in there anyway.

shaian: Okay. Agree with qsns

Volcanion 3 -> 2
kamikaze: Yes. Best fire atm. Been having a lot of success recently with Sub.

MajorBowman: The Steamy One™ is fantastic, I absolutely love the Sub Hydro Vortex set. It can run a few different sets pretty well and has the best qualities of both fire and water types. Agree with 2 for sure

Memoric: this is good. Like the above

miltankmilk: Absolutely, steamy is great and can effectively run both sub and Z move sets. Great defensive typing and pretty good bulk, definitely tier 2.

Qsns: Yes, excellent typing for this metagame and Sub sets can pressure balance like no other.

shaian: Can run a few different sets well, has amazing flexibility with its EVs and can deal with every steel-type in the metagame. Definitely tier 2.

Mega Scizor 4 -> 3 / 2
kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: I usually hate double noms but I’m totally fine with 2 for Scizor. My eyes were definitely opened to this thing during Snake. It has pretty great bulk and the potential to do a ton of damage after an SD, and it can set up in front of a lot of common threats. The option to run Roost if you don’t have a Heal Pulse partner is fantastic too. ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つPraise Mega Scizor ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Memoric: this is a 2 yeah, though I’m still somewhat unsure. It’s really good in both offensive and defensive aspects + it can threaten a lot with SDs. Requires some ample support but this is one of those mons that make more out of the support provided compared to other mons, i feel. fire

miltankmilk: Tier 2 for me. Scizor is very threatening with offensive SD even if the team comp around it is pretty one dimensional. Bug bite is great in this meta with all the pinch berries, knock is also good to hit tran and steamy harder. +2 BP does way more than I expected at first. Great mon both offensively and defensively. ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つPraise Mega Scizor ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

Qsns: 2 made nom

shaian: Yes. Incredibly threatening even with an incredibly limited tool-kit. I disagree that its team compositions are fairly one dimensional given the general lack of experimentation in the metagame which leaves a lot of things unexplored. Probably the best exploiter of stealth rocks in the metagame tbh, and not in the “use Defog” way.

Tapu Fini 1 -> 1.5
kamikaze: No stay 1. Agree with jake.

MajorBowman: No, I think Fini is still a super good mon that has a million different sets, all equally viable. I’ve run anything from Offensive Z move to bulky Pinch Berry Calm Mind to full bulk Heal Pulse support and I’ve never been disappointed. Great defensive pivot and great buffer against other Tapus and their terrains. Remain 1.

Memoric: No (kamikaze, et al., 2017)

miltankmilk: No, Fini is a meta-defining defensive threat that teams have to prepare for. Calm mind hits harder than you expect it to, taunt and heal pulse are great options defensively to lock down opponents or enable teammates. Water/Fairy coverage is quite good as well.

qsns: yes made nom

shaian: No, it’s still a metagame defining Pokemon that more than carries its weight in games it is featured.

Deoxys-A 2 -> 1.5
kamikaze: Yes. Psychium Z sub is fantastic. No you dont need a Lele to do significant work with deo. Lele simply makes it stronger than it already is.

MajorBowman: This one is tough too. Like yeah it hits super hard and can run a few different Z moves effectively, as well as a couple other items, but it’s a bit of a one trick pony in that its job is only to kill things quickly without taking a hit. If the Deo user gets one turn wrong it can often be deadweight, but then again if they get one turn right Deo is probably getting 2 or 3 kills. I’m gonna abstain on this one because I really just don’t know how I feel about Deo right now. If it survives the suspect I’ll probably have a more fleshed out opinion.

Memoric: we’re suspecting this pokemon for a reason, and it’s a damn good one.

miltankmilk: Yes. Both psychium and coverage z moves like fightinium or electrium are incredibly threatening and allow Deo to choose its counters very effectively. I’ve also run HP fire, which doesn’t net the OHKOs that one might expect but lets Deo get past ferrothorn and other steels when chipped by superpower or psycho boost. One of the most threatening pokemon in the meta rn.

qsns: yes made nom

shaian: I fucking hate this pokemon. Yes.

Porygon-Z 3 -> 4
kamikaze: yes 4

MajorBowman: can we just UR this thing

Memoric: This has become unviable with Kyu-B’s prominence in the metagame (miltankmilk, 2017)

miltankmilk: Yes this isnt good anymore. Borderline unusable in the Kyu-B meta.

Qsns: sad_violin.mp3

shaian: accompanying_sad_cello.mp3

Current Tiering System -> A New One
kamikaze: Fine with changing. prefer to stick with numbers still with removal of 1.5. USUM coming up means we can revamp the new thread to letters if people want but I would prefer not to have a significant identity change for SM VR.

MajorBowman: I’m pretty indifferent here, I kinda agree that S/A/B/C is better but if we’re sticking to numbers I’d probably vote to eliminate 1.5 and just go 1-5. Tier 1.5 made sense at first but for now there are more sizable gaps between 1, 1.5, and 2, so switching to 1 2 3 would be alright.

Memoric: i dont care lol, i’d do it with colors if it ever came to it.

miltankmilk: indifferent. I personally think that S,A,B,C is the better system to be consistent with other tiers

Qsns: 1/2/3/4/5 for now, S/A/B/C when USUM come out

shaian: i dont care

Marilli UR ->VR council
kamikaze: sforz is a better player

MajorBowman: only if he makes me cookies i’m hungry

Memoric: si

miltankmilk: yes

qsns: yeeeeeeee

shaian: yes made nom

Changes:
Rotom-W UR -> 4
Volcanion 3 -> 2
Mega Scizor 4 -> 3 / 2
Deoxys-A 2 -> 1.5
Porygon-Z 3 -> 4
Current Tiering System -> A New One (1,2,3,4,5)
Marilli UR ->VR council
 
I really don't care about the outcome of these noms - I'm simply making a few observations based on existing teams and turning a few stones over:


Togekiss UR -> Tier 5

I've mainly seen this on Mega Tyranitar builds that are trying to combine Amoonguss and speed control (usually Zapdos) into one slot. It fills this niche pretty well, and as a bonus it's a generally bulky Flying-/Fairy-type that can hit Marshadow. Togekiss definately saw a bit of use in Snake - I haven't been following fall seasonals that closely so I can't speak to that. Outside of Mega TTar DD I can't see Togekiss being that optimal, but it's also not an absolutely terrible mon.


Whimsicott UR -> Tier 5

Nobody (including myself) wants to acknowledge this as VR material, but Terracott (Beat Up Whimsicott + Terrakion) is a real thing that occasionally surfaces in high-level play. It's a lame gimmick until you become complacent and forget how to check it, at which point it plows through your entire team. Either nom this up or take Terrakion off the VR, because Terrakion's only niche at this point is Terracott.


Mega Salamence Tier 1 -> Tier 2

Still a great mon, but definately not as splashable as Landorus-T, Marshadow or Tapu Fini. It's biggest asset is that it's one of the few Flying-types that gets actually good Flying-type coverage. It's biggest flaw is that it's a *4 Ice-weak mon that, in most cases, is going on a team that already has Landorus-T. Mono-Flying coverage isn't awful, but definitely leaves it walled against certain matchups. You can dedicate the 3rd moveslot to something like Fire Blast at the expense of Tailwind, but then you're passing up a valuable Speed Control slot. Mega Salamence is pretty much a "vanilla" Mega Pokemon that is easily interchangable with Mega Scizor or Mega Metagross on most Fini/Lando-T/Marshadow balance builds.
 
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Clearly you have no idea what kyub does in sm. av kyub is literally the definition of hard to kill and is 3hkod by a lot of super effective hits (e.g. m scizor bp) and can often take 4/5 hits to ko, which is more than enough to throw off a couple of icy winds/hit fini with a fusion bolt etc. its typing means it is a phenomenal rain check (kingdras dont run draco often anymore) while matching up very well vs 3 of the tapus (and lele too kind of). av kyub is on the lando t level of splashable atm.

Also:

Victini to Tier 3
Victini is another one of the recent resurgent fires in the meta atm and the scarf set is really quite terrifying. It hits a good speed with scarf but also has amazing bulk, while also being able to almost guarantee a 1 for 1 trade with final gambit. isnt that one of the reasons deo a is being suspected? v create hits stupidly hard too even without a boosting item
Mab it can be hard to kill, I just haven't seen it take many hits, although I realize now that it's my team because I have a very offensive team with things that can hit it hard and easily 2HKO it, but looking back yeah it can take a couple hit to a lot of different threats
 
Hello, I just wanna give up my thoughts on Alola Ninetales. I think it deserves a rise at Doubles OU to Tier 4 at least. I played in a Gen7 DOU Tournament and it put in a good work, it is very supportive but also can function as a more offensive variant
Here are the Replays of the Gen7 DOU:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-653723441
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-653721800
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-653720834

I think it deserves a rise, i mean it carried me and my team to the win of that Gen7 DOU suspect test tourney. It found a good place in that team and the light clay aurora veil made up some OHKOs into 2HKO.
Also it can support p well with disable, encore, and icy wind. last for speed control.
Imho I think it deserves a rise to tier 4.
My arguments may not be the best, but i think tier 5 for it unerestimates what it can rly do.
 
Hello, I just wanna give up my thoughts on Alola Ninetales. I think it deserves a rise at Doubles OU to Tier 4 at least. I played in a Gen7 DOU Tournament and it put in a good work, it is very supportive but also can function as a more offensive variant
Here are the Replays of the Gen7 DOU:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-653723441
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-653721800
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesoususpecttest-653720834

I think it deserves a rise, i mean it carried me and my team to the win of that Gen7 DOU suspect test tourney. It found a good place in that team and the light clay aurora veil made up some OHKOs into 2HKO.
Also it can support p well with disable, encore, and icy wind. last for speed control.
Imho I think it deserves a rise to tier 4.
My arguments may not be the best, but i think tier 5 for it unerestimates what it can rly do.
I agree, it works very well on bulky offensive teams and can get aurora veil off. Works quite well to help set up fini/other calm mind users that need support to set up properly
 

miltankmilk

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Couple (maybe controversial?) noms here:
Mega Charizard-Y 3->4
I've personally always thought this pokemon was overhyped but I think its especially bad now. Some trends that have hurt Zard are the exceptional bulkiness that Kyurem-B have been running, rise of Stealth Rock, prevalence of tar/megatar, misty seed zap (not the sturdiest check but it can scare zard out), as well as being threatened by Marshadow. There's also mega diancie which isn't that good and mega salamence is still very much around but thats nothing new. Zard is so risky to use rn because these reasons (especially rocks) and the actual value you get out of that slot is relatively low in my view.
quickedit: koko is also super good rn and that also sucks for zard

Mega Gardevoir 3->4
I really haven't seen this thing used very much and probably for good reason. The most troubling thing for garde rn is Marsh. Personally I think Garde is borderline unusable in the marsh meta as it really can't do anything in front of marsh (trick room/ attack/ can't be faked out like other garde checks). Team's are also naturally prepped for Fairy-Psychic typing thanks to the prevalence of Tapu Lele. The nerfs to pixilate hurt Garde more than we probably thought when this was ranked here but this pokemon is simply not good. Stacks typings with very common pokemon (tapus) and is hurt bad by the prevalence of ferrothorn, celesteela, M-Scizor, M-metagross.
 
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MajorBowman

maybe ignorance really is bliss
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posting on behalf of kamikaze, whose computer is currently doubling as a potato

Tapu Koko 2 -> 1

kamikaze: Nah its still a fantastic mon thats one of the better tier 2 mons but I dont think it can dominate games as much as the other Tier 1 pokemon like miltankmilk mentioned.

MajorBowman: Mainly echoing marilli here, but Koko is one of those mons that does a good job on basically any team without being game-defining. Fast, consistent damage plus terrain control is great, but Koko will rarely be sweeping entire teams or clinching wins on its own. Remain 2.

Marilli: No. koko is pretty good and fits on a lot of different structures, making it one of the best mons in tier 2. But it is very much still in line with other 2 Pokemon, such as Kyurem-B in its overall power / threat level. It is also quite frail, so it is not truly as versatile nor game-dominating as Marshadow or Landorus-T on Tier 1, which can fit on just about any teams and can take over any game without fear of hitting into a protect and getting deleted on the same turn.

Memoric: No. Tapu Koko’s what I’d say is pretty borderline imo, since it’s one of the best mons in the meta in terms of fast offense and pressure. The coverage it packs is good and it also packs a good punch. However, it’s not really overly dominant in the sense that it’s only part of what can win a game; it’s not an overwhelming force as its job is mostly to pick off a mon, chip, or clean really. Its frailty and its only average SpA (only made up by the Terrain) will always hold it down to this status. Still, it is quite versatile in terms of sets, but they’re not flexible like those in t1. A solid 2 for sure.

miltankmilk: nah Koko is really good and I think it sits at the top of 2, but its hard for koko to really dominate games. Out of terrain it doesnt hit hard and dazzling gleam is laughable in terms of damage. Nature power and specs sets hit hard but can be taken advantage of once revealed. I think 2 is fine for koko.

Qsns: 2. Koko doesn’t provide enough defensive utility for its power in tier 1 and its offensive presence is almost entirely neutered when another terrain setter comes into play. Obviously a fantastic mon etc etc but I don’t think it compares to the Tier 1s atm because of how glaring its flaws can be.

shaian: no lol koko is great at what it does. Its fairly splashable, hits decently hard, can be a fast pivot but its about 20 base spa too low to be tier 1.

Gothitelle UR -> 5
kamikaze: Yes. Not much has changed since last time this was nommed. Im still in support of it for the trapping and heal pulse utility which can be extremely threatening when properly executed.

MajorBowman: Ehhhh, whenever I try using Goth it just feels like total deadweight outside of its ability. I kinda think Gothitelle is one of those fad mons that people use for a little while because they like traps and then forget about. Gonna say no for now, if it becomes more consistent down the road I’m open to reevaluating.

Marilli: yes. i love trapping abilities! They are very useful because they let you remove key targets for you to win the game.

Memoric: Yes, this was proven to be at least decent in snake so it got the results

miltankmilk: fine Level 51. Shadow tag is :sogood: and it has enough support tools to make it viable.

Qsns: no, it’s pretty bad and will through a cycle on vranks where its hyped up for a bit by one player, gets on, and stays on there for 3 months after the hype dies because no one bothers to bring it up.

shaian: we have a tier 5 now? Okay then. Goth to 5 i guess

Kyurem-B 2 -> 1
kamikaze: No. I still think the AV set is super overrated.

MajorBowman: Remain 2. Quite similarly to Koko, Kyurem is a really good mon that works on basically any team, but probably won’t be the sole reason you win games.

Marilli: Nah 2 is fine, but its one of the best mons in 2. I think AV set is still really good but at the same time there’s a lot of fairy / fighting / steel moves in the game and the meta has adapted (SR) to make this much less of a nuisance.

Memoric: No, not really “t1” good, it’s fine where it is. It’s good at holding a team together but it’s not going to totally dominate a game.

miltankmilk: nah, 2 is fine. AV still hits like a wet noodle and LO sets make kyurem just as vulnerable as it always has been. Marsh/aegis/KARTANA all can give this guy problems and its worn down by STEALTH ROCK.

Qsns: 2. Amazing glue mon and I would have seriously considered 1 before the rise of SR, but Kyurem-B being unable to reliably pivot in and be preserved for a later threat severely limits how recklessly you can abuse it.

shaian: abstain. It is undoubtedly the best way to deal with a good portion of the metagame, however rocks being so common, steels and fighting mons and its lack of recovery options or pivoting make it unwieldy at times.

Kartana UR -> 5
kamikaze: Yes. Honestly impressed by what I have seen from this mon in replays pressuring certain pokemon out and taking hits easily on the physical end thanks to its typing. Also it has been the bane of my existence on suspect ladder on the last suspect. Im curious to see if anyone has been messing around with soak shenanigans as that is something popular in vgc to pair with kart and I have found it quite threatening there.

MajorBowman: No, never been impressed by Kartana in DOU. It can’t switch into many of the top threats well at all and it’s hard to find a special attack that doesn’t at least 2hko it. Has really good attack and can threaten a lot of stuff with a Z move, but doesn’t make up for its piss poor defensive qualities

Marilli: yes this is good.

Memoric: yes, wanted to use this i cannot lie. Mans hot, really good at applying pressure and claiming.

miltankmilk: yes made the nom

Qsns: yes, great at pressuring a lot of builds that have been popping up recently. Sub w/ Z fighting is something I’ve used in the past if you’re looking for other sets as well!

shaian: yes this is good.

Victini 5 -> 4
kamikaze: Abstain

MajorBowman: Sure, final gambit is threatening and V create does a ton of damage. Probably won’t ever get higher than 4, but 4 is a decent place for it now.

Marilli: Abstain. Fires a good typing that most teams want, except Heatran doesn’t get much done vs hyper offense nor super bulky balance which is forcing people to look for alternatives. Its options exude a lot of pressure from turn 1 and is threatening vs a lot of teams. At the same time it really leaves itself open to being outplayed.


Memoric: sure, it’s p threatening with gambit threatening to claim one usually. 4 should be a good place in addition to its tr setting role

miltankmilk: sure its seen a lot of usage recently, final gambits neat and its a pretty cool scarfer. V create is quite strong and it has neat coverage options.

Qsns: 5. I think it’s a pretty bad scarfer because of how impossible it is to clean with/Intimidate shutting it down and the TR set is underwhelming in practice.

shaian: abstain

Changes:
Gothitelle UR -> 5
Kartana UR -> 5
Victini 5 -> 4

Just as a heads up, we're planning on doing one more wave of votes before Ultra Sun and Moon come out in 2 weeks. Keep those nominations coming!
 
Just as a heads up, we're planning on doing one more wave of votes before Ultra Sun and Moon come out in 2 weeks. Keep those nominations coming!
my nomination on alola ninetales still stands, from tier 5 to tier 4. thats all, thank you :)
 

marilli

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my nomination on alola ninetales still stands, from tier 5 to tier 4. thats all, thank you :)
Yes, every post below including the togekiss / whimsicott post down are currently being discussed on. That includes your nomination as well.


I also nominate:

Scrafty 5 -> 4. Fake out / Intimidate support is pretty good for TR teams and I'd say this is about as common / good as base Diancie in fullroom. Use HJK before whining about doing 0 damage, and Knock Off consistently does practically 65% dmg onto Tapu Fini.

Pelipper 4 -> 3. The centerpiece of one of the most "problematic" structure of the format deserves to be ranked higher than 4, next to his weather sweepers Kingdra and Mega Swampert where it belongs.

Celesteela 2 -> 3. Leech seed is overrated as fuck.

Mega Scizor 4 -> 3. You just forgot to move this this isn't really a real nom. Majority voted to move to here.
 
I would like to nominate azumarill for tier 3; trick room teams, as well as tailwind teams are becoming even more popular than they were before, and azumarills pittyful 50 base speed can be high enough to cause chaos with tailwind, or low enough to effectively work on trick room teams. After belly drum, azumarill hits abnormally hard and can become a monster. The current popularity of marshadow is another great reason because it can easily check marshadow and under TR can ohko it easily, even without a belly drum boost.

Nominating milotic for tier 3; milotic has excellent defensive, and reasonable offensive capabilities. It can destroy a lot of very common threats such as mega-mence, lando-t, and zygarde with ice beam, or lower their speed with icy wind and then kill em fast with lowered speed. It's quite dangerous for those as well as other common mons to switch in to take care of it. Also it has the ability to haze away Ddance from mega-mence, get rid of calm mind from a fini, or get rid of Ddance, or the more dangerous coil-tail set on zygarde. It also is quite hard to kill with access to recover.
 
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I would like to nominate azumarill for tier 3; trick room teams, as well as tailwind teams are becoming even more popular than they were before, and azumarills pittyful 50 base speed can be high enough to cause chaos with tailwind, or low enough to effectively work on trick room teams. After belly drum, azumarill hits abnormally hard and can become a monster. The current popularity of marshadow is another great reason because it can easily check marshadow and under TR can ohko it easily, even without a belly drum boost.
Azu does not function as a Marshadow check at all. Its only optimal use is to belly drum and then ohko things. You can't say something is an effective check to a mon just because its only not countered by the mon when its being used sub-optimally. Marshadow is killed by a lot of things when its underneath trick room because of its high speed. Marsh just anal's it all other times by stealing its boosts.
 
longer post, since its the last one for SM :3

meta - 2/1
has picked up so much recently, runs over plenty teams with its only check often beeing ferro, that cant really threaten it/gest lured by hammer arm. can afford to go bulky lets it beat lando even better. also holds a 6-2 winrate in snake draft

ferro - 2
rocks ferro is one of new meta trends that has picked up recently. has it flaws so definetly shouldnt be in 1 but its still the most used steel.

tini - 3
this got so much usage recently, still not perfect, but one of the better fire types currently. with scarf final gambit its bulky, offensivly threatening and holds an amazing speedtier (outrunning scarfers like lele/gene/lando)

mtar - 3
one of the better megas, it belongs with things like scizor rather than trash like venu. has seen some usage, can run sand with exca, for sure deserves to be higher.

peli - 3
rain is one of the stronger playstyles, i dont know how you guys want to treat setters but for sure rain is much more of a 3 playstyle

diancie - 3/4
sucks, has seen very little usage in relevant tour games. you can say it 'works' but it just isnt winning

zard - 4
sucks, nice 2-5 showing in snake. with tar beeing so good and mtar picking up theres simply no reason to use it over any other good mega. id nom this to ur but w/e

drill - 4
sd+z move sets are cool and is sometimes used, definitely better than all the things in 5

tales - 4
similar to drill. one of the recent trends tales/hail isnt something you should ignore and leave in 5

landoi - 5
i think it still deserves to be ranked, has some things over landot like strong single targeted stab. while its certainly not a top tier mon it should be mentioned somewhere, especially now thats landot not nessesary on 100% of the teams

milo - 5
kind of sucks, since the marsh release, also often gets outrun by zapdos teams (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-653536294)

cress - UR
super sucks, never used.

e: didnt even notice them but:
torkoal - UR
was never used in any relevant tour matches and is just awful

porygon-z - UR
wasnt used since the first seasonal, please UR too
 
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Mega Metagross to Tier 2
Good showing in snake, it synergises well with all the tapus allowing it to be on a wide variety of teams, and has a wide array of coverage options for its 3rd slot. It is in my opinion the second best mega atm behind mence. doesnt quite take games over but always does something, even if its just checking deo a.
 
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