Resource SM LC Viability Rankings v2

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shrug

Sexuall Posts
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion
#26
everyone shut the fuck up about meowth or i will beat ur asses irl

the torchic debate should be betwen A- and A, i'll leave y'all to that though

w/ fiend on all the ones he cited

im advocating for a spritzee rise, it's always stronger and fatter than u expect and it's the best frontline vullaby check in littlecup rn.

again, stop talking about meowth or i will call in a drone strike
 
#27
Agree with all of Fiend's stuff and strongly agree with spritz to A-. Only potential vull counter rn. Fighting spam counter. Has like 3 viable counters that don't take 40% from moonblast and get super chipped. (Pawniard, torchic, grimer, gastly). Those 3 counters being mareanie and foongus and ferroseed. 2 of the 3 trapped fairly easily and even juice ferro dies at like 70% to dig. Another huge point to spritz in my opinion is CM spritz is a fighting spam answer that does not get trapped by wynaut thanks to aroma veil and acid downpour mienfoo is SUPER niche. Also the only fighting spam answer that doesn't get trapped (Pursuit grimer, Wynaut, Diglett) by mienfoo u-turning on the counter.
Spritz to A-
 
#28
Most of the nominations that have been made so far are ones that I can agree with or am neutral towards, so I'll just go over the nominations that I disagree with.


Shellder: Remain A


Shellder has been a fantastic dedicated sweeper in LC for several years now. However, dedicated sweepers are a lot easier to come by than they were when Shellder was first moved to A+ back in ORAS - Shellder is no longer a uniquely powerful threat. It has been a mainstay of the upper tiers long enough for the metagame to completely adapt to it, and while a few trends still favour Shellder, the majority of metagame shifts hamper it. Webs tends to shut Shellder down, leaving it outsped by Elekid and Diglett and tied by 19 Speed Pokemon after setting up. Spikes users are difficult to come by outside of the momentum-draining Ferroseed, so Pokemon like slowfoo and Timburr are significantly more difficult to OHKO without Knock Off support. Vullaby is Nasty Plot as often as not, which can KO Shellder at +2; Scarf Doduo is able to outspeed and revenge-kill most Shellder that lack Ice Shard; and the decrease in Magnemite and Pawniard comes with a rise in Ferroseed, Thunderbolt Staryu, Slowpoke, and Mareanie. The most important change is the increase in Berry Juice for several glue Pokemon. Eviolite Ferroseed is KOed by Icicle Spear early game into +2 Icicle Spear late game, while Eviolite Croagunk and Alolan Grimer are brought into +2 Icicle Spear range after switching into Stealth Rock twice; the respective Berry Juice variants that have grown in popularity are all much harder to wear down.

1) Shellder is not significantly above other sweepers in sweeping ability.

- Shellder's bulk is only sufficient to set up once per match, against a moderate group of Pokemon, usually on the revenge-kill.
Shellder's resistances very rarely come into play, with Ice/Fire/Water users usually having better moves to hit Shellder with. If Shellder is relying on its resistances, it'll probably be against defensive Ice Beam Staryu (and risking one or two Scald burns), but defensive Ice Beam Staryu synergizes well with much more solid Shellder checks, like Ferroseed and Magnemite.
Most of the time, Shellder relies on its raw bulk to set up; the problem here is that it's only decently bulky. 20/18 physical bulk allows Shellder to survive the OHKO from just about any physical attack while setting up, but rarely a 2HKO if Shellder sets up Shell Smash on the first attack. It also doesn't leave Shellder with the bulk to withstand most 3HKOs, which means that Shellder tends to be left at fairly low health if it attempts to switch into an attack - even two of defensive Mienfoo's Drain Punch, one of the weakest physical attacks from a Pokemon faster than Shellder, is strong enough to put Shellder into range of Timburr's Mach Punch after Stealth Rock. On the other hand, Shellder's special bulk is abysmal, with the majority of offensive special attackers being able to OHKO it after Stealth Rock, from LO Gastly's Sludge Bomb to 15 SpA Staryu's Thunderbolt to Sashbra's Energy Ball. Pokemon slower than Shellder aren't any easier to set up on due to Shellder's defense drop after Shell Smash; Snubbull 2HKOes -1 Shellder with Play Rough if it chooses not to simply use Thunder Wave, and even Spritzee OHKOes -1 Shellder with Moonblast if Shellder has switched into Stealth Rock twice.
So Shellder's setup opportunities are mostly limited to physical attackers that it can OHKO after setting up, which is hard enough on its own if the opponent ensures that Shellder setup bait isn't out on a field when the Shellder user's Pokemon faints. On top of this, Shellder will almost always only be getting one shot at sweeping because its first setup attempt will leave it noticeably weakened. As a result, even teams lacking Shellder checks can work around it simply by limiting the number of Pokemon weak enough for Shellder to set up on and playing carefully with them.

- A large number of Pokemon are able to impede Shellder's sweep after it has set up.
While Shellder is a powerful sweeper when played well, it has its fair share of checks, even after setting up. Anything with at least 23 HP and 12 Def wielding an Eviolite, or 21 HP and 11 Def, can survive one of boosted Shellder's neutral attacks after Stealth Rock, assuming no high rolls/critical hits. About half of the Pokemon A- and over have notable sets fitting this description. Some of these Pokemon may be running frailer sets, but a heavily weakened Shellder can also be brought down by powerful priority or an especially fast Choice Scarf users; most teams will naturally carry around two Pokemon that can stop Shellder's sweep simply by surviving a boosted attack and hitting a damaged -1 Shellder. Diglett traps or heavily weakens some of these, but running both Shellder and Diglett, two Pokemon with very few switch-in opportunities, means you effectively only have four slots to cover the metagame defensively. Since Shellder can't VoltTurn into Diglett itself, further external support is required, and then there's the fact that some of Shellder's most solid and widespread checks, such as Slowpoke and Ferroseed, don't mind Diglett all that much. Wearing down these checks with Shellder itself is quite risky due to the fact that taking damage early game will frequently prevent Shellder from setting up late game, again due to its reliance on its only decent bulk to set up, so a significant portion of the team has to be dedicated solely towards a Shellder sweep. All this support may not even pay off, as especially Shellder-resilient teams can usually handle all this support without trouble seeing how Shellder usually only gets one shot at sweeping. What we end up with is a Pokemon whose soft checks are common enough, and hard checks solid enough, that it requires most of the team to back up its sweeping attempt, which puts it on par with Omanyte or Zigzagoon when it comes to counterplay - good enough that you can base a strong team around them, but not overly impressive.

That being said, Shellder is still generally more consistent than Omanyte or Zigzagoon because although it requires a comparable amount of support to eliminate checks, it's easier to set up, with Omanyte falling prey to coverage moves on birds, formerly its biggest chance to set up, that have become common to deal with Onix, and Zigzagoon being heavily reliant on Memento due to its below average bulk. Other sweepers that will usually find exactly one opportunity to sweep per match, such as Scraggy and Corphish, can be dealt with by a much greater variety of Choice Scarf users (though compared to Shellder, Scraggy in particular has fewer Pokemon that can immediately retaliate with a OHKO after surviving a boosted attack).

At the end of the day, Shellder is good enough in terms of both setup and sweeping ability to rank as arguably the best dedicated sweeper in LC, but as plenty of Pokemon rival or exceed it in either category, it's certainly not the best by a very large margin.

2) Shellder is unable to perform any role at a high level except for its standard sweeping set.

Shellder's only viable set is its Shell Smash set. While Shellder has had Choice Scarf and bulky Rapid Spin sets listed on its analysis in the past, they have become little more than novelty sets in the current metagame, seeing little to no use in high level play. Choice Scarf relies almost entirely on surprise value to be effective, rarely doing more than surprising an Abra looking to revenge-kill it. Though it has decent 2HKOing power, Shellder OHKOes very few Pokemon without a boost, failing to OHKO Eviolite Foongus after Stealth Rock. Along with a lack of VoltTurn, this makes it much less punishing than common Choice Scarf users, as even if Shellder predicts correctly, the opponent can simply switch to a resist afterwards, and the Shellder user will have lost momentum often without even netting a KO. Bulky Rapid Spin Shellder can threaten Pumpkaboo-Super more heavily than defensive Staryu and can switch into Doduo/Vullaby unlike Staryu/Sandshrew-Alola, but that's a steep price to pay for a slow and weak Pokemon without recovery or notable resistances, making it a momentum drain for offense and unable to fit into defensive cores for balance. Very few teams will appreciate bulky Shellder's miniscule advantages over Staryu.

On the Shell Smash set, Shellder has a variety of options to tailor its set for specific checks, most notably Ice Shard or a Jolly nature for Scarf Doduo and Scarf Gastly, Hydro Pump or Razor Shell for Mudbray and Magnemite, and Hidden Power Fighting for Pawniard and Magnemite. However, all of these only really help against one or two Pokemon out of Shellder's numerous checks, meaning they don't usually come into play. They also don't help to solve Shellder's core issues in limited setup opportunities throughout the match and being unable to muscle through any run-of-the-mill bulky attacker after a boost. Life Orb and Normalium help with the latter but leave it with even less chances to set up, necessitating Memento support, making them significantly less viable overall.

Contrast this with just about any other sweeper in the A and S ranks. The sweeping potential of Bulk Up Timburr and Nasty Plot Croagunk is secondary to their utility in strong priority, ability to check Scraggy and Steel-types, and Knock Off support. Timburr also has all-out attacker sets that are just as effective as its Bulk Up set, and an assortment of EV spreads to speed creep or survive specific special attacks. Croagunk has its own Bulk Up sweeper set and its classic mixed set. If they aren't acting as the dedicated sweeper, Doduo, Pawniard, Snivy, and Scraggy all have Knock Off and are strong enough to act as wall-breakers to clear the way for other sweepers; they also have Choice Scarf sets that are either very useful as revenge killers (Doduo, Pawniard) or have significant sweeping potential (Snivy, Scraggy). Torchic can Baton Pass its boosts to a teammate if it isn't in a position to sweep on its own.

The raw sweeping ability of Shell Smash Shellder is offset by how Shellder can do nothing else. When the opponent sees a Torchic or Scraggy in team preview, they have to ensure they have a plan for multiple sweeping sets until that Pokemon's set is revealed; when they see a Timburr or Vullaby, they have to play carefully with the sweeping set in mind, which allows the non-sweeping sets to more easily wall-break. The opponent can guess almost exactly what Shellder plans to do from the start of the match and drastically narrow down their plays accordingly.

3) Shellder is relatively difficult to fit onto a team.

Switching Shellder into an attack is usually a bad idea if you plan to sweep with Shellder, as explained earlier. Because of this, Shellder offers almost no defensive presence for your team; from a teambuilding perspective, you'll have to cover the metagame and prevent opposing sweeps with five Pokemon instead of six. No other sweeper in the A ranks except for Torchic fits this description. Croagunk remains a fantastic glue Pokemon on top of its sweeping potential - switching into Pawniard's Knock Off early on doesn't prevent it from checking Corphish or setting up on post-Sleep Clause Foongus later on. Snivy hard checks Ground-types, soft checks Water-types, and is the best Webs answer in the metagame. Even the frail Doduo discourages the likes of Pumpkaboo or Foongus from using Grass-type attacks and Spore throughout the match, and if it is running a Choice Scarf, it makes for a handy revenge-killer. Though you can run secondary sweepers alongside Shellder, you're still accepting that if you plan to use Shellder to good effect, you're primarily building around Shellder.

This ties in with Shellder's lack of versatility. If Shellder is running Ice Shard, it has access to priority that doesn't even come close to OHKOing Diglett. Otherwise, Shellder offers absolutely nothing outside of its potential to sweep. Snivy has Knock Off and Glare; Timburr has Knock Off and a reasonably strong Mach Punch; Carvanha can revenge-kill certain threats, has the immediate power to wall-break, and has a strong Aqua Jet; even Zigzagoon's Extremespeed acts as powerful priority. All of these Pokemon can support a teammate's sweeping attempt, check key threats, or revenge-kill a weakened sweeper even if they are unable to sweep on their own. Shellder cannot - if the opposing team is packing enough checks, you're playing close to a 5v6, plus a one time switch-in to Vullaby/Doduo/Torchic.

The combination of requiring a team built around it and still potentially being shut down means that a Shellder team tends to be quite matchup reliant. While teams that pack six Shellder checks and just win against Shellder builds aren't especially common, a negative matchup with, for example, a hard check and two soft checks, perhaps Ferroseed + Timburr + Berry Juice Chinchou, possesses a large advantage that is extremely difficult to build or play around. Of course, frailer teams that rely completely on preventing Shellder from setting up an fall prey to Memento into Shellder are just as common, but the fact is that Shellder is quite inconsistent. Pokemon in S and A+ are the faces of the metagame, the most splashable and consistent Pokemon available; Shellder is a much better fit for A or even A-.


Meowth: Remain C+


Meowth does have its unique strengths - if it was truly outclassed, it wouldn't be ranked at all - but there's no point in just listing what it can do without context. Meowth's capabilities have not changed for years, nor has its place in the metagame, and we already know what it can do; its C+ ranking has been assigned accordingly. If Meowth hasn't changed and the metagame hasn't changed, then the only way we have left to argue that Meowth should rise is if its original ranking outright wasn't fair, which we can do by comparing Meowth's ranking to the rankings of the Pokemon most similar to it.

Though none of them have Technician Fake Out + Feint, Meowth belongs to a select group of Pokemon that have absolutely no switch-in opportunities. There aren't very many of these in the upper ranks - even Doduo and Taillow can come in on Drilbur or Onix's Earthquake or Snivy's Leaf Storm / Knock Off, which are reasonably common. In comparison, Meowth comes in only on Ghost-type attacks, which are used on three relevant Pokemon and aren't the most spammable move for any of them; you can expect to almost never actually take advantage of this resistance. Simply including a Pokemon from this group on your team means that from a defensive standpoint, you are playing a 5v6. Seeing how difficult it is to check the entire relevant metagame even with six Pokemon, if you further handicap yourself defensively by including one of these, you're accepting that there will be multiple important threats that will get a KO against your team every time they come into play.

These Pokemon must have enormous offensive presence (or absolutely game-breaking support moves in Sticky Web or Aurora Veil, which Fake Out + Feint certainly doesn't qualify for) to even be worth considering. Being able to get a Pokemon in on a slow VoltTurn is rare and somewhat costly; to take advantage of slow VoltTurn, you have to get the slow VoltTurner in on something that is both unable to 2HKO it and is slower, which only applies to a few Pokemon per VoltTurner. Then, after the VoltTurner has taken a hit for free, the switch-in to the slow VoltTurner has to lose to the frail Pokemon being VoltTurned to, keeping in mind that your opponent can take this into account when deciding on their switch-in. Getting around relying on a slow VoltTurner by leading with the frail Pokemon can only happen once per match, on top of being highly predictable, so most of the time, these Pokemon will be coming into play through a revenge-kill. In this sort of scenario, it is important not to credit a KO solely to the offensive Pokemon in question, because that will get you an inflated sense of the threat's worth. The effort to get a frail Pokemon into play may be worth it if the frail Pokemon in question is Abra, which has the raw power to outright sweep once it comes in, or Diglett, which can guarantee a specific KO when the opportunity arises; more on this later. Just being able to reliably 2HKO switch-ins is nowhere near enough to warrant even a half-decent ranking; you'll be doing a one for one trade where the opponent comes out ahead in momentum, which is a net negative.

Meowth isn't even able to come close to guaranteeing a 2HKO after it comes in. Double-Edge allows bulkier Berry Juice users, scarfed Steel-types, and Weak Armor Pokemon to switch in and force it out; all of Meowth's other attacks allow a whole slew of threats a chance to get into play, as they do pitiful damage to moderately bulky Pokemon unless a coverage move is hitting it double super-effectively. Even a perfectly played Meowth has its hard checks in Snubbull, Ferroseed, Mudbray, and Kabuto. Any individual Meowth will actually have a lot more checks than that, though - after Fake Out + Feint, Meowth only has two remaining slots to cover the metagame. Out of its most common options, it has to choose from Double-Edge, Water Pulse, Knock Off, Aerial Ace; no matter its choices, Meowth will be walled by such a large portion of the metagame that its versatility becomes 4mss - it simply cannot consistently act as an offensive threat.

And if Meowth does get a KO, it's vulnerable to every trapper in the metagame. Diglett, Wynaut, and Trapinch all eliminate it without issue on the revenge-kill. Grimer-Alola KOes it with Pursuit after Stealth Rock + Double-Edge / Life Orb recoil, or after Stealth Rock if Meowth decides to switch. Scarf Pawniard can also trap a weakened Meowth with Pursuit. This means that you'll have to save Meowth for the late game if you want to utilize its revenge-killing potential against even a single sweeper.

With that in mind, let's go through each Pokemon that has a similar lack of defensive presence and is ranked above Meowth to see why they are far more viable. Surskit and Vulpix-Alola are strictly supportive so I've left them out.

Abra. With a set of Fake Out / Feint / Double-Edge / Water Pulse, Life Orb Meowth has the power to 2HKO the most important sets of all but 12 Pokemon from B- to S after Stealth Rock, out of 57 (though more can switch in and force it out at least once). With a set of Psychic / Dazzling Gleam / Energy Ball / Hidden Power Ground, Life Orb Abra is unable to OHKO 13 of those after Stealth Rock. This difference is what makes Life Orb Abra the single most threatening Pokemon to stall and balance teams and one of the top webs abusers where Meowth falls flat in both aspects. If you predict correctly against Meowth, chances are you can force it out since you'll live the follow-up attack, invalidating all the effort needed to get Meowth into play and simultaeously gaining momentum. If you predict correctly against Abra, you're probably dead anyways. Then there's Sashbra, overall arguably the best Pokemon at 1v1s in the metagame, which is still far more difficult than Meowth to switch into, acts as a reliable safety net against a far greater number of threats, and can pose as the Life Orb set.
Offensive Staryu. While it isn't quite as capable of OHKOing the metagame as LO Abra is and so makes for a less effective webs abuser / wall-breaker, Staryu is still able to OHKO a much larger portion of the metagame than Meowth due to its stronger coverage moves. Furthermore, thanks to Analytic, Staryu is nearly as difficult to switch into as Abra is; pick Hydro Pump and three of [Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fire, Psychic] and you're looking at anywhere between two and four safe switchins from B- to S. Again, this means the difference between an incorrect prediction from Meowth resulting in some chip damage and lost momentum, and an incorrect prediction from Staryu resulting in the KO anyways. Offensive Eviolite Staryu has a similar number of switch-ins to Life Orb Staryu and can actually come in on a fair number of threats, though it outright OHKOes far fewer Pokemon.
Diglett. Diglett barely even belongs on this list because all of its variants can come in on stray Volt Switches and the Eviolite variant can come in on a bit more. Either way, there's a huge difference between how much you gain from a Meowth KO versus a Diglett KO. Even if you get Meowth in on a (likely weakened) team that lacks switchins, it'll probably KO a fodder Pokemon before being forced out again - the opponent chooses what faints, and you hope that Meowth's KO was worth more than the KO it took to get Meowth in. When you get Diglett in, you get to choose what faints with some minor constraints, often quickly paving the way for a teammate to sweep.
Offensive Torchic / Carvanha. As I mentioned earlier, the main reason why simply 2HKOing the metagame is not enough to warrant the use of a defensive deadweight, including Meowth, is that after it gets a kill, it is immediately forced out; so you sack one Pokemon to get the defensive deadweight in, get one kill with the defensive deadweight, and then you're forced out again, but the opponent gets to choose what to send in against Meowth, allowing them the upper hand in momentum and ultimately the advantage. That being said, this loss in momentum isn't very punishing if you're being forced out by a defensive Pokemon that doesn't hit very hard - if they send Spritzee in to revenge-kill your defensive deadweight, you can swap out to one of your many Spritzee checks to gain the upper hand again, forcing them to make a risky double switch as you go to your Spritzee check if they want to maintain momentum. On the other hand, you definitely don't want to be letting a powerful offensive threat into play for free - allowing a Pawniard or VoltTurn user in for free guarantees that the opponent will be able to maintain their momentum. Torchic and Carvanha are slightly more powerful than Meowth, and more importantly, circumvent the issue of letting offensive Pokemon in on the revenge-kill thanks to a combination of Speed Boost, power, and coverage, allowing them to outspeed and OHKO traditional revenge-killers. Meowth lacks the power to immediately threaten anything faster than it, as well as some things slower than it; after grabbing a 2HKO with Double-Edge, everything from Pawniard to Scarf Mienfoo to Elekid fires off a strong STAB attack or VoltTurn with impunity on Meowth or its switch-in. Torchic and Carvanha also have significant cleaning potential (and in Torchic's case, the potential to aid a teammate in cleaning with Baton Pass), which Meowth can't come close to doing most of the time unless the opposing team is within range of being swept by a Feint that's about as strong as Timburr's unboosted Mach Punch. This generally makes them far better anti-offense Pokemon than Meowth.
Elekid. While Elekid also only has the power to 2HKO most switchins like Meowth, its fast Volt Switch ensures that it is able to take full advantage of an opening much more consistently than Meowth is. On top of that, a one point difference in Speed means a lot in LC. Where Meowth has to rely on weak priority or a tie to take on Abra and Staryu, Elekid outspeeds them and pressures the opponent with a powerful Volt Switch, simultaneously doing a fair amount of chip damage and maintaining momentum. The closest equivalent Meowth has to this is a U-turn that's so pitifully weak that it's honestly not worth using at all. So once again, Meowth ends up in a position where an incorrect prediction means the attempt to get it into play was wasted, while Elekid doesn't have to worry about predictions to begin with when it can just use its mostly risk-free Volt Switch in a metagame where Chinchou isn't as common as it once was, following up with a Hidden Power Grass if Onix or Diglett chooses to switch in. In addition, unlike Meowth, Elekid has a defined niche on a major archetype, in this case webs, as a reliable offensive check to birds, courtesy of having STAB moves that actually provide coverage.
Aipom. Aipom is not the same as Meowth because Aipom is better than Meowth. Similarly to Abra or Staryu, it's a matter of how much it's worth to get Meowth or Aipom into play - Meowth has to predict perfectly to get a KO to even begin to make up for the opportunity cost, Aipom does not. Aipom effortlessly muscles through bulky Pokemon like Mareanie and Timburr with Fake Out + Fury Swipes where Meowth needs to 3HKO itself with Double-Edge to hope to 2HKO them. Aipom's decent bulk (for its power and speed) also makes it the far better 1v1 Pokemon and all around much more difficult to force out; after Stealth Rock and a round of Life Orb recoil, Aipom still has the bulk to tank 18 Atk Iron Fist Timburr's Mach Punch or make revenge-killing it with LO Diglett a risky task. Once Aipom comes in, you can expect it to get a KO; Meowth simply can't hold a candle to Aipom when it comes to actually being a threat.
Zigzagoon. Suppose a match between two offensive teams has gone on for about a dozen turns, and both teams are slightly weakened. If Meowth finds the opening to come into play, it obtains a single KO before immediately being forced out. If Zigzagoon gets into play, it defeats the opponent.
Bunnelby. Outside of Meowth's Fake Out + Feint combo, Scarf Bunnelby is, for the most part, a better version of Meowth. It's faster, stronger, and doesn't wipe itself out on its main STAB attack. Despite carrying a scarf, Bunnelby is arguably less reliant on prediction than Meowth is, as its coverage moves pack enough of a punch to not be easy switch-in opportunities for most of the metagame, and it can take advantage a fairly powerful U-turn with little risk. A few Pokemon can take advantage of immunities and resistances to set up on a locked in Bunnelby, but at the same time, moderately bulky sweepers like Dragon Dance Scraggy can set up on Meowth where they would be heavily damaged by Bunnelby. Life Orb Bunnelby is the first Pokemon on this list that doesn't completely overshadow Meowth as a threat since Meowth is so much faster. However, Life Orb Bunnelby has a defined niche as a powerful wall-breaker for Webs teams, whereas Meowth doesn't fit in very well on any archetype in particular.

Now that we have hopefully established that Meowth is a terrible, terrible offensive Pokemon in comparison to the rest of the metagame, we can look at the utility Fake Out + Feint offers. Seeing how much power and momentum you give up by choosing Meowth over another frail offensive Pokemon, Meowth would have to have enormous utility to make up for turning the game into a 5v6 defensively. To put it bluntly, Fake Out + Feint isn't that good. It's a nice perk that comes in handy for specific situations, but cannot be relied on to any significant extent. It's strong enough to barely 4HKO (2HKO in practice) most Eviolite sweepers that don't resist it, like Dragon Dance Scraggy, and only the frailest Pokemon are threatened by the 2HKO (OHKO in practice). Certain sweepers, like Tirtouga, take laughable damage from Meowth's attacks, while others, like Scraggy and Timburr, simply recover the damage with Drain Punch. Meowth can force out a few fast and frail threats like Scarf Mienfoo and Abra, but only on the revenge-kill, and many of these Pokemon really aren't hampered whatsoever by switching, nor is the metagame short of Pokemon able to tank Fake Out, so the Meowth user still usually ends up on the losing end.

So it comes down to Meowth acting as a safety net against the likes of Weak Armor Vullaby, Zigzagoon, Carvanha, Life Orb Torchic, and Shellder, but Meowth is an extremely poor answer to all of these except for Protect-less Zigzagoon. To begin with, Meowth is unable to safely switch in on any of them except for their setup moves, which already discounts it from being anything more than a soft check. Even if Meowth does come in on Vullaby's Nasty Plot, Fake Out either activates Berry Juice if Stealth Rock is up or simply pops Weak Armor if Vullaby is healthy. Meowth will then have to switch out, which could end disastrously if Vullaby is carrying Substitute. But even if Meowth plays its hand perfectly, it will have to sack a Pokemon to come in on Vullaby, and then Vullaby will likely still be healthy enough to switch out of the obvious revenge-killing attempt to pose as a significant threat later on. Shellder is a similar case to Vullaby, although it does not usually carry Substitute. Keep in mind that the sack needed for Meowth to revenge-kill Vullaby or Shellder is especially costly when you consider how Meowth isn't offering any defensive presence for the team - by relying on Meowth to any significant extent, you're giving up two switch-ins to various metagame threats to deal with what Meowth is supposed to handle.

Meowth needs both Fake Out and Feint to knock out a relatively healthy Carvanha or Torchic, but they can Protect on Fake Out, and for every correct prediction the Carvanha or Torchic user makes, they get an extra KO at no cost, assuming Meowth is its team's best answer. Meowth can use Feint to beat the Protect, but it needs Carvanha or Torchic to have taken five rounds of Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock chip before it KOes, which is likely far more than a team relying on Meowth to check them can afford, so if Carvanha / Torchic predicts the Feint and simply attacks, Meowth is a goner. This is all taking into account how Meowth can't even safely switch in on Carvanha or Torchic - it needs to win a 50/50 to even revenge-kill them. A similar case to Carvanha / Torchic plays out against Protect Zigzagoon, with the additional obstacle of Meowth's Fake Out + Feint not OHKOing from full if Zigzagoon manages to remain healthy after setup. Even against the Pokemon Meowth is supposed to act as a safety net against, Meowth either relies on an extra sack or a 50/50 to revenge-kill them, which Meowth's team may not be able to afford.

In other words, Meowth is so dreadful as an immediate offensive threat and a safety net that it struggles to qualify as either.

Now I would like to compare Meowth to the C+ and B- rankings and what they represent. First, let's look at Magby, which will likely be dropping to C+ soon, and Tyrunt, a Pokemon that is already in C+. Both of these Pokemon and Meowth appear to have useful strengths at first, but when you compare them to the rest of the metagame, they simply don't seem to be worth using except on the most niche of teams or for novelty value. Despite having different checks than Shellder or Zigzagoon, Magby ultimately sees little use over more prominent sweepers because it's so much more costly and difficult to support; Tyrunt lacks Onix's initial Speed, Omanyte and Onix's Weak Armor, Onix and Tirtouga's bulk, and Omanyte and Tirtouga's Shell Smash to compete against any of them with its Stealth Rock and Dragon Dance sets; Meowth is underwhelming at everything it wants to do, not to mention outshined by Sashbra as a wall-breaker safety net, which is a position that most teams can really only afford to give up one slot for if any, for an even slightly Shellder-resilient team.

Then we have Salandit, a C+ Pokemon that could potentially move up to B- in the near future, and Hippopotas, a Pokemon that is firmly a resident of B- until Magnemite becomes a top threat again. Salandit is a great Snivy check that can also get on the nerves of Foongus, Fairy-types, and the omnipresent Fighting-types. It can set up Nasty Plot and utilize Z-moves quite well to muscle through bulkier Pokemon, and Fire/Poison/Grass coverage is difficult to switch into for most teams. Though it is outsped by Abra and Staryu, it makes for a good choice on webs teams that are looking for a Snivy answer, as it is much better able to threaten a sweep than the likes of Ponyta, Deerling, or Blitzle. Hippopotas is, bar none, the most reliable answer to Magnemite and Elekid; it also shuts down several other important Pokemon in Croagunk, Grimer-Alola, and Onix, checks Pawniard, and phazes Vullaby, Scraggy, and Timburr. It's quite easy to come up with a solid, defensively oriented team that needs Hippopotas's specific strengths more than any other Pokemon, where Hippopotas's access to Stealth Rock, phazing, and reliable recovery is more useful than Mudbray's offensive presence. Both Salandit and Hippopotas have defined niches on defined archetypes. Meowth does not, because Meowth is not good at what it does. On almost every team that uses Meowth, you'll probably be able to replace it with no detriment, with very few exceptions.

In short, Meowth is an unreliable and gimmicky choice that is often indicative of lazily built, suboptimal teams. Putting it anywhere above C+ would imply that it has a defined niche on consistently competitive teams when it does not.


Spinarak: Remain B-


Sticky Web is certainly the best it's ever been in LC, but this is because some of its most prominent abusers, such as Gastly, offensive Croagunk, and most importantly, Life Orb Abra, happen to be in a very good spot for metagame matchups. One thing all of these Pokemon have in common is that they need Webs to be up as soon as possible to best threaten the opponent, with Abra and Gastly relying on it to not be forced out by various Choice Scarf users or trapped by Scarf Pawniard, and Abra and Croagunk needing it to get around Diglett. As the fastest Sticky Web user, Surskit is ideal for getting webs up as fast as possible, whereas Spinarak will often be forced to avoid the lead matchup out of fear of a Taunt or Rock Blast user and have to find the opportunity later in the match. Another thing these webs abusers have in common is that they don't really mind Foongus or Fighting-types, with Croagunk even using them as setup bait for Nasty Plot. It's unlikely that the entire webs team will be resilient to Foongus and Fighting-types - in particular, Eviolite Snivy is a common webs abuser that lets Foongus in quite easily - but the hyper offensive nature of these teams means that they don't mind sacking a Pokemon too much. So Spinarak's ability to switch in on key threats to set up Sticky Web doesn't benefit the current most prominent Sticky Web builds very much, or at least, Surskit's ability to set up webs right off the bat is far more useful.

Spinarak's niche is primarily on more balance-oriented webs teams that don't mind waiting until mid-game to get Sticky Web up; they are much more appreciative of having a solid switch-in to Foongus, Fighting-types, and Fairy-types to ease pressure off the rest of the team, a Pokemon that can repeatedly set up webs when they are unable to pressure hazard removers, and potentially a Toxic Spikes user. However, these teams have not grown in prominence the way hyper offensive webs has, so while webs as a whole has improved dramatically, Spinarak has not.


Snivy: Remain A


Web is good, but Snivy better.


Zigzagoon: Remain B+


Zigzagoon teams can be very strong when played well, but you really can't claim that it doesn't need much support - it's the poster child of needing a lot of support. That's why you need an entire team backing it up. Without Stealth Rock, a large portion of Eviolite-holding Pokemon will be able to survive its Extremespeed and revenge-kill it, including Timburr, Vullaby, Foongus, and Alolan Grimer, turning the game into a 5v6 when factoring in how Zigzagoon will be coming in on the revenge-kill. Without Knock Off support, various exceptionally bulky Pokemon such as Spritzee and physically defensive Slowpoke can revenge-kill a weakened Zigzagoon, turning the game into a 5v6 in the same manner. Without Pursuit support, Ghost-types and Sashbra shut its sweeping attempt down while still wall-breaking early game, turning the game into a 5v6. Without Memento support, Zigzagoon has trouble setting up in a metagame where every Pokemon in A+ and S except for Nasty Plot Vullaby, Berry Juice Grimer, and Eviolite Staryu completely deny its setup - but even then, Vullaby can flinch, bj Grimer can poison or high roll with Gunk Shot, and Staryu can burn with Scald. All this support points toward an even more extreme version of what I described with Shellder. You're gambling on matchup; if your opponent happens to have more than a couple of Zigzagoon checks, it'll be tough to get all of them onto the field to sufficiently weaken or trap; you're most likely out of luck.

Now, if Zigzagoon's checks were uncommon enough, Zigzagoon might still be one of the top sweepers, but there is a reason that Zigzagoon teams see far less use than Shellder or Scraggy teams. Even after finding the opportunity to set up, Counter Sashbra, Onix, Gastly, Ferroseed, and Pawniard are all very prominent Pokemon that many teams will carry more than one of and can completely shut Zigzagoon down. Fightspam and webs are two of the most common archetypes, and both allow Zigzagoon little to no setup opportunities, even when Zigzagoon is used with Memento. Furthermore, fightspam is often run alongside Onix, and webs will be running a Ghost-type that isn't pressured into being sent in early game due to most Zigzagoon teams being unable to fit a spinner in. Zigzagoon teams will always have their place in the metagame, but the current metagame isn't any friendlier to it than previous metagames.


Goldeen: Remain C


Between Knock Off, Waterfall, Drill Run, and Z-Bounce / Megahorn, Goldeen is actually pretty rough to switch into if you don't have Ferroseed or, in the case of Megahorn Goldeen, Foongus. Lightning Rod allows Goldeen to hard check Chinchou and Magnemite and soft check Elekid and Slowpoke. Comparably reliable checks to Chinchou (Foongus, Ferroseed, RestTalk Chinchou, Lileep) have much less offensive presence than Goldeen, so if you're running an exceptionally Chinchou-weak team on hyper offense, require a fairly threatening Knock Off user and general attacker, and already have a hazard setter over Ferroseed / Lileep, Goldeen is barely justifiable. That being said, Goldeen is still pretty bad; most of the time, you'll be better off just running Snivy and risking a poor matchup against Ice Beam Chinchou. But since there are at least a small number of competitive teams that genuinely appreciate Goldeen's advantages as much as its competition's, I feel that Goldeen ranks above the Pokemon in C-, which tend to find spots on teams almost solely for their novelty value.


Tirtouga: Remain B


Tirtouga has never been as potent a sweeper as Shellder or Omanyte. Its awful speed tier has always left it too vulnerable to Choice Scarf users to effectively clean; it will usually need two Shell Smashes to have a reasonable shot at sweeping past them, but this turns Tirtouga into easy pickings for priority users. Since late XY, Tirtouga has had to deal with a large portion of the top Pokemon in any given metagame being able to check one or more of its Shell Smash sets, so it wouldn't make sense to drop Tirtouga now on those grounds alone.

The reason Tirtouga has remained a notable threat despite its limited sweeping potential is how easily it comes in. Solid Rock Tirtouga avoids the OHKO from pretty much everything that isn't a strong Grass-type attack, including Reckless Scarffoo's High Jump Kick if Eviolite is run, and unlike Shellder, it actually has usable resistances. This ridiculous bulk grants Tirtouga an enormous amount of setup opportunities, and makes setting up twice a real possibility. More importantly, despite Tirtouga's issues with sweeping, it is able to pull its weight all the same. Eviolite Tirtouga is the metagame's best Doduo check and can survive Torchic's LO HP Grass after Stealth Rock, while Berry Juice Tirtouga can avoid the 2HKOs from Vullaby and Taillow's HP Grass from full. Tirtouga is certainly a threat once it comes in; Stone Edge and Zen Headbutt are somewhat difficult to switch into even before setup, Aqua Jet is reasonably strong for a priority move, and you can sneak in a Knock Off or Stealth Rock if you're willing to further sacrifice its sweeping potential. Tirtouga's bulk allows it to come in and whittle down its own checks early game relatively safely, before setting up Shell Smash mid or late game to punch huge holes in the opposition. And of course, if the enemy leaves Tirtouga alone for too long, it'll get enough Shell Smashes up to sweep.

Tirtouga's ability to come into play as a bulky tank and then quickly transform into an offensive threat with real sweeping potential, coupled with its versatility, forces the enemy to stay on their toes, and gives Tirtouga plenty of chances to weaken its checks; this makes it the perfect partner to a dedicated sweeper that shares its checks. As a result, Tirtouga is one of the faces of fishspam cores alongside Corphish, LO Staryu, and Carvanha. Tirtouga has far more opportunities to get into play than these other fishspam Pokemon, and is the one best equipped to both lure in and confront Croagunk in particular. All of the main fishspam threats are dangerous wall-breakers as well, allowing for some flexibility on which member of the core will break and which will sweep depending on the match. B- currently belongs to Pokemon that are secondary choices in standard archetypes, or primary choices in secondary archetypes. Though the popularity of Foongus, Croagunk, and Ferroseed makes fishspam less tempting than it has been in the past, it is still very much a prominent and proven strategy; the rise of firespam may be enough to bring fishspam back into the limelight. Tirtouga is an integral member of an archetype that is still considered standard, and is honestly closer to B+ than it is to B-.


Mantyke: Remain C-


Offensive Mantyke isn't really worth using. It has its strengths, and perhaps once in a while you'll be able to pull off a nice sweep with it. Offensive Mantyke simply does not have a real competitive niche; there is no reason to include it over one of the numerous better sweepers that are easier to build around and have more sweeping potential. It's moderately powerful and quite fast in the rain, but pales in comparison to Shell Smashers, Scraggy, and other top, high, or even mid tier sweepers after setup in terms of damage, and still isn't faster than + Speed Shell Smashers - the fastest Scarf users, Elekid and Diglett, can still take it out. Mantyke is shut down by more bulky Pokemon than any remotely notable sweeper ranked C or over; basically everything that resists Water bar frail Grass-types and some that do not can stop its sweep. It can set up on a few Pokemon here and there, but more prominent sweepers that don't carry a Stealth Rock weakness, have a workable defense stat, and have enough power to viably run Eviolite set up on much more. The inability to run a defensive item is key here; Mantyke absolutely needs to run Life Orb or Waterium Z, or else Berry Juice Vullaby survives Rain-boosted Hydro Pump from full, and it can't OHKO even Tauntfoo after a layer of Spikes with Air Slash. This makes Mantyke's Special Defense stat much less impressive, and mostly negates its otherwise decent set of resistances; 16 Atk Iron Fist Timburr has a good chance to KO LO Mantyke with Knock Off into Mach Punch after Stealth Rock, and LO Abra OHKOes Mantyke with Psychic after Stealth Rock more often than not. Although there will be scenarios where Mantyke sweeps, chances are that any half-decent sweeper would have been able to clean far more easily, and maybe without relying on Hydro Pump - you're handicapping yourself by running Mantyke instead. Every competitively designed team (this excludes Rain) where offensive Mantyke is run can be improved by replacing Mantyke with a sweeper that is not Mantyke.

RestTalk Mantyke is undebatably the absolute worst set in the metagame. It does nothing once it comes into play except attempt to spread Scald burns, and it's not even that good at spreading them because it's a horrible Pokemon that can only come in on a bunch of defensive Pokemon that most things can come in on anyways and hopefully do more than attempt to spread Scald burns in the process. Defensive Mantyke is thoroughly outclassed by defensive Ducklett, which at least gets Roost; relying on RestTalk is generally a horrible idea when you're weak to Stealth Rock, so defensive Mantyke just gets used as fodder most of the time, except it's not even good at being fodder because so many bulkier setup sweepers can use it as setup bait when it's so weak. Also, Ducklett gets Defog and Hurricane, allowing it to support the team or somewhat threaten frailer Pokemon if they miss their attacks or something. Defensive Mantyke, on the other hand, requires Stealth Rock to 2HKO Foongus with Air Slash - Foongus isn't even that bulky for a defensive Pokemon. And really, compared to defensive Mantyke, Foongus and its Sludge Bomb may as well be the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the game, because again, Mantyke is piss weak. You'd think that the sweet typing and SpD should let it check at least some cool offensive threats, but unfortunately, RestTalk Mantyke is full of utter disappointment in every respect. HJK -> Knock Off -> HJK from defensive min Attack Mienfoo KOes Mantyke after Stealth Rock, every single Mienfoo bar Baton Pass outspeeds Mantyke, and every single Eviolite Mienfoo variant easily avoids the OHKO from Air Slash (even Scarffoo lives from full), so it doesn't even check Eviolite Mienfoo. Mantyke actually doesn't really check any Fighting-type except for Regenerator Scarffoo and Bulk Up Timburr. Eviolite Snivy, LO Gastly, and LO Abra 2HKO Mantyke after Stealth Rock, while Swords Dance Corphish and Nasty Plot Vullaby set up in Mantyke's face, and Mantyke, being exceptionally wimpy for a piece of garbage, doesn't come close to OHKOing them, so the excellent special wall Mantyke loses to more special attackers than not. Even Sashbra has a roughly 45% chance of defeating a Mantyke switching in with full health when factoring in Psychic crits/max rolls/drops, but realistically, Mantyke is getting chunked by Stealth Rock, and then Abra is going to switch out to whatever because Mantyke is weak and more things wall it than not, and then the next time Mantyke is coming in at half health from switching into rocks twice.Water Absorb doesn't let Mantyke check very many offensive Water-types because they either carry the appropriate coverage move (Chinchou has Volt Switch, offensive Staryu has Thunderbolt, Shellder has Rock Blast), or they just muscle through it (Corphish, Wingull, physical Carvanha). The Ground resistance isn't very useful when Drilbur 2HKOes with Rock Slide after Stealth Rock (and avoids the OHKO from Scald), offensive Mudbray carries Rock Slide and usually at least ties with Mantyke, and Diglett doesn't give a damn if it's walled after it's already done its job. So what we're mostly left with for Mantyke to wall is a bunch of weak defensive Pokemon, like Ice Beam Staryu and Mareanie - but not the defensive Pokemon that are actually threatening, because those tend to carry setup moves, and defensive Mantyke is setup bait. In other words, Mantyke walls absolutely nothing of note. It comes in on barely anything, wastes its turns doing zero damage, and then it gets set up on by Ferroseed or Spritzee or something. Defensive Mantyke is useless, the most underwhelming set of all time. Berry Juice Lickitung is a more effective answer to big threats than Mantyke is; Baton Pass Skitty has a bigger niche than RestTalk Mantyke does. I hate defensive Mantyke.
 
#30
8k words to say "let's keep all these where they are"

this is how you get on vr council kids

Sorry here's the actual post.

I do disagree with the bit about Shellder. A lot of what Levi discusses in terms of defensively answering Shellder focuses around Shellder's inability to KO full HP mons that have Eviolite as long as they're moderately bulky, and while this is true it also doesn't really get a good picture of how matches often play out. Shellder generally isn't going for a sweep from very early on, but rather midgame, where you can prevent these checks from able to actually stop Shellder, by removing their Eviolite, by setting up hazards, or by good old fashioned damage.

Shellder has two main advantages that really make it suitable for A+ in my eyes, its ability to set up on a very wide variety of attacks due to more impressive bulk than Levi gives it credit for and a typing with few weaknesses and the difficulty to offensively check it. While Levi is correct that Shellder struggles to actually switch into attacks in order to set up, the number of Pokemon that Shellder sets up on given a free switch (and unless you plan to 6-0 your opponent this isn't exactly a hard proposition) is actually extremely impressive. Levi lists several special attacks that are able to OHKO Shellder, but you wouldn't want Shellder to try and set up on high powered special attackers anyways - you set up instead on the multitude of very common physical attackers who are completely unable to OHKO Shellder without a super effective attack after they KO a member of your team. In this way it's really easy to see Shellder as a sort of super momentum taker - removing all momentum from the opponent to bring it to your side.

Shellder also is difficult to offensively check. By this I mean that unlike comparable sweepers like Omanyte, Shellder can take priority attacks much more effectively and continue onwards. Shellder is capable of taking some of the strongest priority attacks the tier has to offer and, while I wouldn't say shrugging them off, they certainly aren't nearly as much of a threat to Shellder as they are to the variety of other setup sweepers the tier has.
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. -1 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

While Levi mentions fast Choice Scarfers, the fact is that it's not just normal fast scarfers like Mienfoo, it's incredibly fast scarfers like Doduo or Gastly, who are definitely not the easiest things to fit onto a team.

Shellder's main selling point that pushes it into A+ for me is actually somewhat similar to Diglett's big qualities, namely the effect it has on how it forces your opponent to play. Much like Diglett forces your opponent to play more conservatively with their Chinchou or Grimer-Alola, not being able to use Volt Switch as freely or switch Grimer-A in as casually, Shellder's simple presence allows you to force your opponent to continuously second guess their actions. Because Shellder is capable of setting up on such a wide variety of pokemon given a free switch in, it means your opponent has to consider very carefully if they can afford to actually go for a KO without losing a turn later. Due to Shellder's high power and difficulty in offensively checking (which usually just requires a pokemon be alive unlike defensively checking which requires a pokemon be healthy) your opponent can be forced to not use their pokemon for fear of a later Shellder taking advantage of it. That Ferroseed which would normally be a fine Foongus answer suddenly becomes a risk you take switching in if they have Hidden Power Fighting for example. This means that even in games where Shellder would have difficulty sweeping due to the opponent packing sufficient checks, Shellder is still helpful to your team - perhaps not in the normal damage dealing or status spreading way that most pokemon do, but by forcing your opponent to play conservatively with a variety of pokemon, which cedes you momentum. This, in my eyes, makes up for the complaint about "effectively only having 5 pokemon".

While Shellder would not be the top pokemon in A+, I do believe that it fits in more among those pokemon rather than with its companions in A, as one of the absolute best setup sweepers in LC along with having two other (less effective granted) usable sets that actually take advantage of the threat of Shell Smash Shellder.
 
Last edited:
#32
<<Removed a slight personal dig because a quote was taken out of context>>


Meowth's capabilities have not changed for years, nor has its place in the metagame, and we already know what it can do; its C+ ranking has been assigned accordingly. If Meowth hasn't changed and the metagame hasn't changed, then the only way we have left to argue that Meowth should rise is if its original ranking outright wasn't fair, which we can do by comparing Meowth's ranking to the rankings of the Pokemon most similar to it.
Meowth is a straight up HO Killer that can rip teams apart that don't have the bulk to reliably switch into it. A metagame with more HO teams should correlate to an increase in Meowth viability as it leads to more reason to bring it. Another reason to increase the viability of any Pokemon, Meowth included is if new team types start to include it, which has happened with Veil teams.

The effort to get a frail Pokemon into play may be worth it if the frail Pokemon in question is Abra, which has the raw power to outright sweep once it comes in, or Diglett, which can guarantee a specific KO when the opportunity arises; more on this later. Just being able to reliably 2HKO switch-ins is nowhere near enough to warrant even a half-decent ranking; you'll be doing a one for one trade where the opponent comes out ahead in momentum, which is a net negative.
Meowths a revenge killer that mainly either leads and hopes to get a good startup matchup or switches in after a kill and forces out/kills any threatening pokemon like a Smash'd Abra or Weak Armour boosted Vullaby with Fake Out + Technician. The role of Meowth isn't to be switched in and cause absolute havoc on a whole team, it's largely to take out that one threat which it does well at. There are just better sweeper pure normals like Aipom or Bunnelby.

Even a perfectly played Meowth has its hard checks in Snubbull, Ferroseed, Mudbray, and Kabuto. Any individual Meowth will actually have a lot more checks than that, though - after Fake Out + Feint, Meowth only has two remaining slots to cover the metagame. Out of its most common options, it has to choose from Double-Edge, Water Pulse, Knock Off, Aerial Ace; no matter its choices, Meowth will be walled by such a large portion of the metagame that its versatility becomes 4mss - it simply cannot consistently act as an offensive threat.
HP fighting ( a popular choice from what I've seen) does a ton the Ferroseed and Kabuto you mentioned and Mudbray absolutely hates Water Pulse which leaves a few hard counters like Spritzee, Slowpoke, Snubbull that are going to like to switch into Meowth before you see what 3rd and 4th move. Honestly though yes it does have a great case of 4MSS but I would hardly hold it against Meowth in determining it's viability. Every single pokemon except like Hustle sweepers and Clamperl have great switch ins and you get to choose which 2 are the best depending on what you really are weak to with the other 5 members. The player has the knowledge of what tech moves Meowth is running and can hopefully shape the game to a way they are useful.

And if Meowth does get a KO, it's vulnerable to every trapper in the metagame. Diglett, Wynaut, and Trapinch all eliminate it without issue on the revenge-kill. Grimer-Alola KOes it with Pursuit after Stealth Rock + Double-Edge / Life Orb recoil, or after Stealth Rock if Meowth decides to switch. Scarf Pawniard can also trap a weakened Meowth with Pursuit. This means that you'll have to save Meowth for the late game if you want to utilize its revenge-killing potential against even a single sweeper.
Very few of the trappers like switching in directly with only wynaut being a great switch so at that point Meowth has done it's job and got a kill.

Diglett revenges as it does a ton of other Pokemon however it's not so free.
236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 9-13 (50 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wynaut yeah.
Trapinch has to be very careful about Water Pulse especially with confusion chance possibly alloving Meowth to power through it.
Grimer Pursuits a very odd case as it can just stay in and do a ton to Grimer too which would be brilliant for say a partner Abra.

Aipom. Aipom is not the same as Meowth because Aipom is better than Meowth. Similarly to Abra or Staryu, it's a matter of how much it's worth to get Meowth or Aipom into play - Meowth has to predict perfectly to get a KO to even begin to make up for the opportunity cost, Aipom does not. Aipom effortlessly muscles through bulky Pokemon like Mareanie and Timburr with Fake Out + Fury Swipes where Meowth needs to 3HKO itself with Double-Edge to hope to 2HKO them. Aipom's decent bulk (for its power and speed) also makes it the far better 1v1 Pokemon and all around much more difficult to force out; after Stealth Rock and a round of Life Orb recoil, Aipom still has the bulk to tank 18 Atk Iron Fist Timburr's Mach Punch or make revenge-killing it with LO Diglett a risky task. Once Aipom comes in, you can expect it to get a KO; Meowth simply can't hold a candle to Aipom when it comes to actually being a threat.
I'm not going to talk about the other comparisons because honestly I don't understand what point you are trying to make in those comparisons but i'll take about this relevant one. Meowths really not competing with Aipom as much for a teamslot as you would think. Meowth clearly doesn't have the Muscle that Fury Swipes allows in breaking teams but it's trading that for other things like a possible strong Water type attack, less predictable moveset, not relying on poor accuracy and much better revenge killing against threats.

236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. -1 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 8-9 (40 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. -1 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 5-8 (25 - 40%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO

This allows you to do less inital damage and not have to sac something else compared to say


116 Atk Life Orb Aipom Fake Out vs. -1 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 5-8 (25 - 40%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 8)

At this point I've started reading the rest of the post and it seems you do focus on Fake out + Feint over how threatening Meowth is and call it terrible and I don't have the effort to try and dispute these cases. Ideally i'd have replays which I don't but I just feel like the rest of the point underestimates how useful the 19 Speed Fake Out + Feint combo is towards the end of a game in a situation where it's around 3 pokemon left each and kills are being traded each turn. Meowth is frankly a god send in this situation unless one of the few bulky enough good answers to it are left.

C+ just seems underwhelming of a rank for a mon what is deserving of a place on teams when you have actual trash like Pikipek and Riolu in the same rank.
 
Last edited:
#34

B+--> A-
Well first of all,Muddy is a incredible mon with a great bulk and also has Stamina which boosts it's defense even higher,having access to Resttalk also gives it a better longevity together with eviolite
As of offensive it has access to Earthquake+Heavy slam which is almost always 120BP due to muddy's heaviness and with the company of BP torchic(curse+subs) it has the possibility of OHKOing/2OHKOing almost the entire tier(with a few exceptions like Mantyke)
here are some calcs I made with BPassed curse(with torchic's speed):
+2 196+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Possible damage amounts: (21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25)
+2 196+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
+2 196+ Atk Mudbray Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 17-20 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20)
+2 196+ Atk Mudbray Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 17-20 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20)
+2 196+ Atk Mudbray Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
And considering none of them have enough to make a great damage on muddy and will be probably killed after the next move(Ps:The set I used is this BPass adapted one:https://pastebin.com/97GAjff4)
 

Gummy

send typecharts
is a Pre-Contributor
#35
I think Mudbray is pretty good where it is. It doesn't really fill a specific role so it's hard to fit on your team, and even if you do get it there it's just completely stopped by Staryu and Pumpkaboo. Sure, its threatening if you can pass a Curse boost to it, but that applies to just about any physical attacker.
 
#36


A lot of people have already made this nomination but I think Wynaut deserves the B+ rank. Its a solid mon in the meta, capable of trapping and removing or trading kos with a lot of key defensive mons and some offensive threats in the meta. One of its biggest advantages is, similar to diglett, it has the ability to get rid of annoying defensive mons and allow partners to flourish now that their check or counter has been removed. However, wynaut with bj has the ability to switch into some of the mons it traps and removes, which is really nice and something that diglett cant boast. On top of that, with encore, wynaut dissuades any mon attempting to set up on it or subbing when its low and 13 speed dbond can pick up an extra ko if you're lucky, so you get momentum/a free hit. Assuming the 13 speed spread, I compiled a quick list of what it can potentially trap from S to A- but theres also a decent number of mons lower in the rankings which it can deal with.

This is assuming wynaut is at full or almost full with bj intact. All calcs are done with the following wynaut set:

Wynaut @ Berry Juice
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 52 Def / 52 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Coat
- Counter
- Destiny Bond
- Encore

S-rank mons

Abra: Can switch into and comfortably trap sashbra if its not running shadow ball. You can't switch into lo bra, but it gets trapped or encored into sub if you get wynaut in on a free switchin.

Mienfoo: Can trap scarf sets locked into a fighting type attack or even ko. otherwise no. However, 18 attack ko fails to kill wynaut even with bj intact, so mienfoo is often forced to u-turn, which gets a free kill if no ghost type. Taunt completely shuts wynaut down tho.
236 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 22-26 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)

Timburr: Cant switch into ko, but its easily trapped or forced into bulk up if ko wasnt the last move it clicked. Ko also fails to kill from full with same roll as mienfoo calc if timburr is max attack adamant so you can get that encore into dbond kill too.

Staryu: If defensive, can easily switch into analytic scald and proceed to encore it into spin/recover or an attack to get rid of it. Cant switch into lo staryu, but it can trap lo staryu from full with encore into mirror coat.
252 SpA Life Orb Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 76 HP / 52 SpD Wynaut: 21-25 (77.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)

Vullaby: Ko from defensive vull only has a 1/16 chance of ohkoing full hp wynaut even with juice intact. However, trapping any physical vullaby is pretty unrealistic unless its scarf locked into sth that isnt ko.
76 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 24-30 (88.8 - 111.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30)
Wynaut does nothing to special vull with mirror coat. However, it can take +2 air slash from full or so, assuming no flinch, you can potentially 1 for 1 with encore into dbond if juice is intact. If at full with no juice, you can just dbond then encore and you either get the kill or lock it into np. Hp grass is more common than dpulse but, if its dpulse, then wynaut gets blown away.
+2 240+ SpA Vullaby Air Slash vs. 76 HP / 52 SpD Wynaut: 21-25 (77.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25)

A+ rank mons:

Croagunk: Physical sets can be encored into bulk or any other move. Wynaut can definitely trap most physical sets if it gets in for free. 12 speed gunk is easy for wynaut to trap with encore into counter or dbond. However, 13 or 14 speed gunk is a bit more problematic if it outspeeds or wins ties but it can be trapped too.
The special set is also problematic. Wynaut easily traps and can switch into 12 speed gunk, even if its running shadow ball since it eats any hit, and trap or lock into np. However, 13 and 14 speed gunk can beat wynaut at +2 so its unreliable. With webs up, it easily traps any special gunk tho.

Gastly: Nah

Diglett: Nah, z eq has a 68% chance of killing. If lo or sash, you can lock into eq and then counter or, if its locked into sub or hazards, you can play the dbond game or encore game. Beat up beats wynaut too, so depending on set, you could potentially trap it but its pretty unlikely.
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 19-23 (70.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)

Grimer-Alola: You cant switch into it but you can trade 1v1 or encore into counter depending on what it last went for. This mon is easily trapped as long as you play wynaut right. However, you cant trap below at 10 hp or below cause sneak kills.
196+ Atk Grimer-Alola Shadow Sneak vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 10-12 (37 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Onix: Highly unlikely. Taunt completely shuts it down and with rock blast, wynaut does very little back.

Foongus: Wynaut is extremely good at trapping this mon. Since neither giga or sludge can 2hko, wynaut can switch into any attack and proceed to encore into mirror coat or dbond depending on health. If wynaut is at full with bj, it can switch in to the spore, take 3 hits, encore and dbond so trapping foongus is almost guaranteed.
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 52 SpD Wynaut: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

A rank mons

Doduo: If scarf, you cannot switch into knock but can reliably trap scarf dod at full since no attack it goes for can kill.
236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 19-24 (70.3 - 88.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
236 Atk Doduo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 22-26 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
Lo dod cannot be trapped and trapping bj dod is very unreliable due to the sub/bb 50/50.

Ferroseed: You can 1v1 ferro by encoring into knock then dbonding or going for counter. However, with multihit bullet seed and twave, trapping ferro is pretty unrealistic.
36 Atk Ferroseed Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
36 Atk Ferroseed Knock Off vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 10-14 (37 - 51.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)

Pawniard: Nah

Shellder: Unlikely. Since max speed wynaut speedties with shellder, the encore into dbond combo or vice versa is unreliable.

Snivy: Nah, +2 storm kills.

Snubbull: Traps snubbull easily, as long as you dont give it the free bj or get super unlucky with twave paras. Wynaut switches into any attack and can encore into dbond or counter. Switching into twave is problematic tho.
252+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 15-18 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
252+ Atk Snubbull Thief vs. 76 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

A- rank mons:

Chinchou: Wynaut cannot trap since It can volt on wynaut. However, if the opponent lacks a dark type, thats a free 20-26 damage on the switchin.
232 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 76 HP / 52 SpD Wynaut: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

Magnemite: Similar to chou. Mag deals more damage tho.

Ponyta: Highly unlikely. Hypnosis shuts you down. Z bloom doom does a lot and fire blast in the sun does 24 min.

Scraggy: Nah

Torchic: Nah

Wynaut traps a decent number of mons below A- too, notable ones include mareanie, slowpoke, munch.


With webs up, the amount of mons it traps is bigger. Wynaut does have its problems, its essentially deadweight against volt turn with a psychic and fighting immunity, unless you get a dbond kill. Hazards are also a massive issue for it, since a lot of the calcs shown above become rolls after rocks and, if webs are up, the amount of mons wynaut traps is reduced. However, wynaut can also flourish against volt turn without those immunites, nabbing a kill/almost a ko on a volt switch or u-turn. Overall, I think its ability to almost guarantee getting rid of 1 mon which annoys your team if played well makes it deserving of B+. In addition, a lot of the mons it can switch into and trap kill are key defensive mons which are present on a lot of teams to ensure they don't lose to certain mons. Unlike dig, which often needs evio knocked or a decent amount of chip to remove these mons, wynauts ability to switch into and remove a lot of these defensive mons is super nice. A lot of the mons which partner well with wynaut like carv, corphish, fighting types etc become a lot more dangerous when your foon, gunk, timburr, snubbull etc are gone.



I also agree with the nomination to move spritzee up to A-. It's the best fighting check in the metagame rn and it doesn't get trapped by either wynaut or dig (unless its weakened heavily). With hp grass being common on vullaby now and onix needing 4-5 hits with rock blast to ohko both evio and bj special vull from full, spritzee is a good vulla check too. Cm is underprepared for but a dangerous bulky win con. Overall, I think its really solid and deserving of A-.

Sorry for the waffling in the wynaut section.
 

blizzardy

Link Together With All
#37
Here are my dumbass noms feel free to make fun of me

Pawniard to A+
Pawniard is a great check / counter to a lot of top threats, including Abra, Gastly, Doduo, Rufflet, Snivy, Slowpoke, Vullaby, Foongus, Spritzee, Shellder, Grimer-A, Snubbull, Zigzagoon and most Sticky Web teams. If you are making an offensive team, it seems more often than not Pawniard will be the biggest threat you'll have to muscle through, due to its neat typing and powerful Sucker Punch. Big Papa Pawn also has a good amount of team supporting options, from Stealth Rock to Thunder Wave, Pursuit and, of course Knock Off. It can be pretty offensive with a Choice Scarf, as Steel is an underrated offensive type in this meta, in my opinion. Also, clutch Iron Head flinches.

Pumpkaboo Super to B+
B seems a bit low for one of the most annoying defensive mons to deal with. It walls a lot of the common Ground and Water types while beating out other bulky Grass types thanks to Fire Blast. Will-o-Wisp makes trying to knock off its eviolite a massive pain in the ass. Its also the best spin-blocker in the meta, its only real competition coming from Frillish, so if you are making a team that heavily relies on hazards or webs, P-super is pretty much mandatory.

Scraggy to B+
I'm finding it harder and harder to see a reason to use Scraggy. It is a cool sweeper, but I think its checks are too numerous and too common for it to be an A- mon, especially when its facing competition from all the other sweepers in the meta, who just hit harder and faster than Scraggy can. Aside from its sweeping sets it doesn't really have much else going for it. Mienfoo is arguably a better Scarfer, and there are better choices to use on Webs teams.

Salandit to B-
Cool mon, decently fast and powerful with a unique typing that gives it great dual STABs. Requires quite a bit of support, usually webs and something to take out rock types, but its very scary once all of those threats are gone.

Other things:
I think Wynaut is fine where it is. Trapping shit is cool but what it can trap seems to be a bit too specific to certain team archetypes.
 

Shrug

Sexuall Posts
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion
#38
Doing my job commenting on these... I'm like a troop of the lc forums and demand to be treated as such. All insults to me, my posts, or my ideas anywhere will be treated as a disrespect to the American flag and censured accordingly. Anyway,

Mudbray is a tough one for me. It seems p clearly a B-rank mon by itself, but it is indisputably at the apex of torchpass recipients, particularly when it's catching Curse boosts. I don't know where I stand on it, but any argument for A- would incorporate its receiving along with its strength by itself.

Onto the noms of my man Simbo Kice (That's your name, yes?). Wynaut is tough for me as well, but I could give stronger support to its rising than for mudbray. It gets some good traps, particularly on the priority fighters, and rlly warps games w its presence. Not certain but I'm tentatively in favor

Spritzee was my nom first so obviously I agree. If I was more of a meme guy I would drop this voguish one one you:

Distracted guy: me, shrug
Handholding gf: building teams that use creative teambuilding and offensive pressure that checks the metagames myriad threats either directly or indirectly while gaining some advantage, whether by matchup edge or tempo control, against common builds
Comely girl walking by: looking at the vr and seeing fights, vullaby, abra, gastly, and staryu and adding Ferrospritz
If you've played me you know I'm unfaithful p often.

On to blizzardy. Pawn is tough for me with the rise of Shrugaby committed to eating it up and wacky characters like pd bringing sub doduo. SD is maybe making a resurgence but I'd like to see it before it came up.

I do agree with superpump though. Good water / ground check, spinblocking like crazy, soft abra check (as good as u can expect), shadow sneak usable with giga, wisp, etc. raise it

Scraggy I'll abstain from. I see blizz's points but I don't encounter it much in games and it's not getting a lot of play in open because it's a mostly untested archetype at the highest levels. A little more discussion from ppl who have seen it more

Big salandit fan over here. Tears up the ferospritzes I just praised and it's packing a verifiable Swiss Army knife of SpA sets with AR-15 power. Lo or z attacker, scarf, evio np which is a sneaky torch check, bj, etc. obvious weaknesses but enough strengths to justify the raise.

Proposing my own nom of agrimer to mid a. It's that high on the basis of checking abra but even the best laid plans sometimes end with the abra as George and ur agrime as Lenny. It's a good mon but not enough to keep it in the upper upper echelon
 
#39
Any idea why Wimpod was unranked? I don't see any justification for it, and honestly Wimpod is definitely more consistent and useful than some of the C ranked mons (What the heck does Nosepass do again? Is Inkay really in C for being a mediocre Choice Scarf cleaner or a Trick Room cleaner that doesn't do squat to Spritzee?) At 18 speed with taunt, Wimpod beats many hazard setters/removers and set up sweepers. It outspeeds Onix, both(all?) sticky web setters, Dweeble, Vullaby, Ferroseed, and Drilbur, etc. and sets spikes of its own.

A lot of people think Onix rolls over Wimpod, but this is not always true. In fact you can beat Onix even if it rock blasts turn 1 because only 5 hits will completly KO Wimpod. If it gets two or three hits you can KO Onix the following turn as long as it does not have endure. If Onix gets 4 hits, Wimp Out triggers, Onix has sturdy broken, and now you have momentum. Best of all, Wimpod can still come in and set spikes AND Onix has not gotten hazards up. Pretty sweet deal.

The only things that really check Wimpod are Anorith, Natu, Kabuto, Dweeble, and Staryu, and Staryu really only can Rapid Spin if it lacks thunderbolt, which some do. Anorith and Natu are rarely seen, Dweeble can potentially stop Wimpod but it at least stops it from setting hazards / shell smash of its own (not to mention its also losing popularity).

Here is the set I'm using:

Wimpod @ Berry Juice
Wimp Out
116 Def / 196 SAtk / 196 Spe
Timid
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Scald
- Struggle Bug

Here are some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-624574176
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-624362775
Replay that shows that Onix doesn't invalidate Wimpod (critical hit kinda messes this up, Wimpod can stay in on 3 hits as well): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-624582010
 
Last edited:
#40
Any idea why Wimpod was unranked? I don't see any justification for it, and honestly Wimpod is definitely more consistent and useful than some of the C ranked mons (What the heck does Nosepass do again? Is Inkay really in C for being a mediocre Choice Scarf cleaner or a Trick Room cleaner that doesn't do squat to Spritzee?) At 18 speed with taunt, Wimpod beats many hazard setters/removers and set up sweepers. It outspeeds Onix, both(all?) sticky web setters, Dweeble, Vullaby, Ferroseed, and Drilbur, etc. and sets spikes of its own.

A lot of people think Onix rolls over Wimpod, but this is not always true. In fact you can beat Onix even if it rock blasts turn 1 because only 5 hits will completly KO Wimpod. If it gets two or three hits you can KO Onix the following turn as long as it does not have endure. If Onix gets 4 hits, Wimp Out triggers, Onix has sturdy broken, and now you have momentum. Best of all, Wimpod can still come in and set spikes AND Onix has not gotten hazards up. Pretty sweet deal.

The only things that really check Wimpod are Anorith, Natu, Kabuto, Dweeble, and Staryu, and Staryu really only can Rapid Spin if it lacks thunderbolt, which some do. Anorith and Natu are rarely seen, Dweeble can potentially stop Wimpod but it at least stops it from setting hazards / shell smash of its own (not to mention its also losing popularity).

Here is the set I'm using:

Wimpod @ Berry Juice
Wimp Out
116 Def / 196 SAtk / 196 Spe
Timid
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Scald
- Struggle Bug

Here are some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-624574176
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-624362775
Replay that shows that Onix doesn't invalidate Wimpod (critical hit kinda messes this up, Wimpod can stay in on 3 hits as well): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-624582010
Not entirely sure if I agree on Wimpod only being checked by so few mons, especially considering that many things can actually oneshot it due to it being frail n shit, and uturn into faster mon usually also works. More often than not get's up a layer of spikes though which is nice, but slightly hard to keep on the field, and I feel like it's hard to justify a teamslot for only 1 layer of spikes. I definitely don't think this thing is more consistent than any C mons like at all, and there hasn't been any new metagame trends that justifies moving this up as of now, although I wouldn't mind seeing it C- (Without being able to justify exactly why I think so lol). Also, while it's MU vs WA Onix is solid enough, WA Onix is almost never a lead, and it's really down to mindgames whenever facing a Bjuice Onix, considering it may Rock Blast you on the turn you taunt etc, or SR on the turn you spike. While this gives you more hazards, it does have the potential to OHKO you as you said, leaving you with 1 layer or no layers at all, or your Wimpod forced out and Onix having Sturdy AND Bjuice intact.

I think other mons like Gible should be addressed first, considering it actually have a niche now with the sheer amount of Torchics and Grimers running around rn.
 
#41

C+-->B-
(shout out to the choice scarf set)
Well pikipek is too low imo for a interesting mon like that,Pikipek is great against some top tier mons(gonna put them in the calcs later) while it also has a great ability,Pikipek is also a great mon to deal with sticky web teams because of its flying type and has access to uturn which makes it a good pivot
Here are some calcs I made with Pikipek with scarf set:
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 20-30 (95.2 - 142.8%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 25-30 (131.5 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (breaks sash and finishes it)
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 20-26 (83.3 - 108.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 40-60 (190.4 - 285.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO("breaks" juice and finishes it)
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 52 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 26-32 (118.1 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 40-50 (222.2 - 277.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 20-30 (100 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO (finishes before shell smash and ice shard isn't OHKO)
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Chinchou: 40-50 (166.6 - 208.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
 
#42

C+-->B-
(shout out to the choice scarf set)
Well pikipek is too low imo for a interesting mon like that,Pikipek is great against some top tier mons(gonna put them in the calcs later) while it also has a great ability,Pikipek is also a great mon to deal with sticky web teams because of its flying type and has access to uturn which makes it a good pivot
Here are some calcs I made with Pikipek with scarf set:
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 20-30 (95.2 - 142.8%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 25-30 (131.5 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (breaks sash and finishes it)
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 20-26 (83.3 - 108.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 40-60 (190.4 - 285.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO("breaks" juice and finishes it)
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 52 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 26-32 (118.1 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 40-50 (222.2 - 277.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 20-30 (100 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO (finishes before shell smash and ice shard isn't OHKO)
236 Atk Pikipek Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Chinchou: 40-50 (166.6 - 208.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Pikipek Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I disagree. On paper Pikipek looks great because it can break through some of the best bird checks in the metagame such as Onix, Pawniard, and Chinchou. However, this really isn't as great as it first seems as Pikipek relies of winning a lot of 50/50 situations. Its Speed tier means that it only ties with Onix (along with some other Pokemon, particularly fast Mienfoo) unless it runs a Choice Scarf. If it runs a Choice Scarf, you need to predict the switch to Onix with Bullet Seed else you'll be locked into Brave Bird, and this prediction can be very unreliable and risky. Furthermore, Pikipek cannot reliably break Pawniard, as not only does it survive a Brick Break, but Pikipek also risks being KOed by Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock. The other birds in the meta have more reliable ways of breaking through their checks, for instance Doduo's better Speed stat means that it can use Jump Kick effectively, and Vullaby's far better bulk and access to Weak Armor mean it can use Heat Wave and Hidden Power Grass. This, along with other perks that other Flying-types have over Pikipek, means that it's generally not worth using and is suited to the C+ rank.
 
#43
I disagree. On paper Pikipek looks great because it can break through some of the best bird checks in the metagame such as Onix, Pawniard, and Chinchou. However, this really isn't as great as it first seems as Pikipek relies of winning a lot of 50/50 situations. Its Speed tier means that it only ties with Onix (along with some other Pokemon, particularly fast Mienfoo) unless it runs a Choice Scarf. If it runs a Choice Scarf, you need to predict the switch to Onix with Bullet Seed else you'll be locked into Brave Bird, and this prediction can be very unreliable and risky. Furthermore, Pikipek cannot reliably break Pawniard, as not only does it survive a Brick Break, but Pikipek also risks being KOed by Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock. The other birds in the meta have more reliable ways of breaking through their checks, for instance Doduo's better Speed stat means that it can use Jump Kick effectively, and Vullaby's far better bulk and access to Weak Armor mean it can use Heat Wave and Hidden Power Grass. This, along with other perks that other Flying-types have over Pikipek, means that it's generally not worth using and is suited to the C+ rank.
Not to mention Bullet Seed doesn't even ohko the standard Bjuice Chin set, and even scarf sets will have to risk a speedtie. It also lacks the power to reliably ohko things like Timburr, Pumpkaboo and Foongus, meaning you don't get the glasscannon power that Doduo have, only the frailty and a potentially good movepool.
 
#44
Clamperl: C+ to B- or even B

While everyone knows about the sheer power of deepseatooth clamperl, I've been testing evio clamperl a lot recently and have been surprised by its capabilities. I've been using this set.

Clamperl @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 244 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Shell Smash


At first glance, this set looks to be outclassed by omanyte as omanyte boasts a higher spa in 19 and 38 at +2, and the same 26 speed at +2. However, omanyte finds it far harder to set up in the metagame, due to its weakness to common types like fighting, ground and its quad weak to grass. Omanyte can easily be picked off by vacuum wave and mach after setting up. While flying resist is nice, many flying types have fighting coverage or hp grass so omanyte still takes a lot even if it sets up and can be picked off by prio.

Clamperl, on the other hand, has comparable physical bulk to shellder and 3 more spdef points so it can set up on all the same physical attackers that shellder sets up on, while taking less from special attacks so its less likely to be revenged by prio. Defensively, clamperl is solid as an SS sweeper, being able to take a regen mienfoo hjk, scarf dril eq and a lot of other neutral strong physical attacks. With more spdef, it can set up on mons like defensive staryu with tbolt, as it doesnt fear scald burn and lives any hit. It also takes any hit from +2 vull at full and can set up on that. Once its set up, its less susceptible to prio than omanyte and other rock/water SSers due to its pure water typing.

236 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
200 SpA Life Orb Staryu Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 21)
+2 240+ SpA Vullaby Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
+2 240+ SpA Vullaby Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 16-20 (80 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

Essentially, sets up on everything shellder does, but with better special bulk, it takes special attacks surprisingly well and can set up on a few additional things. I may be wrong but i dont think any neutral attack ohkos clamperl at full.

Priority:

196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 7-9 (35 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
188+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 7-9 (35 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
236 Atk Mienfoo Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 4-5 (20 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)
196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 7-10 (35 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 7-10 (35 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
236 Atk Life Orb Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 8-9 (40 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
252 Atk Life Orb Aipom Fake Out vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 8-9 (40 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)

While some of these prio attacks hurt and, in conjuction with stronger physical and special attacks, can kill clamperl, if you remove the prio attacker beforehand or set up on weaker mons, clamperl can avoid being revenged by common forms of prio, letting it sweep.


Offensively, clamperl is a bit underwhelming. Even with 34 spa at +2, it still fails to ohko a lot of key mons in the meta, such as foon, vull, bj chou, staryu etc which is disappointing. However, clamperl requires a similar level of team support as shellder, which isnt much. A lot of the failed ohkos become ohkos after rocks and/or knock support. Both rocks and knock are very common on most teams anyway and the best knockers in the tier (mienfoo, timburr, grimer-a, pawn, vull etc) naturally bring in a lot of the mons that clam needs knocked, so getting the knock/chip isnt too difficult with a well built team. Dig/wynaut as support trappers is also nice, as you can trap pawn/mareanie/croagunk but they are not a necessity if the 5 teammates can pressure/remove these mons. Abra sash needs to be broken before set up, so mons which trap/pressure the sash broken are needed.

+2 248 SpA Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Guaranteed after rocks/knock/small chip
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 22-26 (88 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
Guaranteed after rocks/knock/small chip
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Surf vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
Guaranteed after knock
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Surf vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
Guaranteed after knock
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 22-27 (91.6 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
Minimal chip or knock needed.
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Surf vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Grimer-Alola: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
Guaranteed after knock
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (24, 24, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28, 30)
Guaranteed after rocks
+2 248 SpA Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 20-24 (80 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Guaranteed after knock/chip

While there are some defensive mons which need to be removed/reasonably heavily chipped/knock off and some chip in order to kill like gunk/ferro/munch/evio bulky fril/skrelp/tenta, since a lot of the mons in the calcs are defensive or are used to switch into stuff, obtaining said knock support or chip isnt too difficult for a well built team.


Overall, while clamperl isnt the best SS sweeper, it carves itself a niche in being one of two special SS sweepers which sets up on far more than omanyte and is less susceptible to common forms of prio. In a meta where a lot of mons prefer to run phys def over spdef in order to take shellder better (bulky foo runs 14 def and some hp, staryu runs phys def, bj chou runs phys def) and a decent amount of mons run bj, clamperl is cool as it can ohko common bj mons straight or after rocks without triggering it and it takes advantage of these mons more inclined to being physically bulky. Shell armour is a fantastic ability too as it ensures that a crit doesnt ruin your setup or that a crit prio attack doesnt reduce the kill count. I think it deserves B- or maybe even B for its ability to set up easily on a lot of the meta and being an effective mid/late game sweeper/cleaner once the necessary chip/knock support has been achieved. I think it is better than C+.

Remoraid: C- to C

For sheer offensive capabilities, I think remoraid deserves the C ranking. Boasting a nice 17 speed and 16 attack or special attack when invested plus hustle to further boost physical attacks is solid. With a good movepool in waterfall, bounce, seed bomb, gunk, fire blast, psychic and maybe even bullet seed or rock blast for certain situations, remoraid can act as a solid Z move user, removing the accuracy drop of hustle one time and luring in certain mons. Flyinium bounce destroys fighting and grass types, ohkoing every relevant fighting and grass type barring ferro and lileep regardless of set. Poisonium z destroys sprit/snub (although u have to play the protect mindgame with spritzee), waterium Z into waterfall kills every neutral target in lc on the swtchin barring bj snub. Seed bomb gets good damage on some water types on the switch. Gunk shot is pretty meh on non Z move set tho cause 64 acc isnt very reliable.

236 Atk Hustle Remoraid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 16-21 (59.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
236 Atk Hustle Remoraid Waterfall vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

236 Atk Hustle Remoraid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
236 Atk Hustle Remoraid Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)


Barring 1/16 rolls, two of the most defensive neutral to water mons fall over to hydro vortex into waterfall, assuming you hit the waterfall. Access to fb to hit ferro and psychic to hit gunk is also nice.

With 16 spa when invested and a decent special movepool, remoraid can also run a special scarf set with waterspout, hydro and two filler moves of choice from psychic/ice beam/fb/hp of choice, scarf remoraid can serve as a decent cleaner with water spout and have the appropriate coverage to hit some switchins hard with prediction.

Defensively, the mon is garbage, switches into essentially nothing. While it does offer little defensively and is difficult to fit on a team, I think its decent speed tier, ability to run a decent variety of z moves to remove/lure specific threats and, with hustle, being strong enough to nab the ohko/2hko on all of them is nice. Being able to go physical or special is also nice, since the checks are a bit different depending on set. While this mon is trash defensively, can miss, and, overall, not a great mon, I feel like offensively the mon is better than C- and should be in C.


I agree with pump super going to B+. Solid ground resist, decent water resist and its quite annoying for non fire types to switch into with wisp and fire/grass coverage. Great spinblocker, taking on non ice beam staryu and dril well. With the physical set, it can be a nice check to abra and gastly. Overall, solid defensive mon.


Regarding wynaut, while I agree that it doesn't fit on every team and every playstyle, it can do well on a surprising amount of teamstyles. Webs appreciates its trapping abilities, as it can get rid of annoying mons for webs like scarf birds (depending on what they are locked into) and it traps so much with support. Its a good mon for torchpass teams as it gets rid of two lo torchic switchins in munch and mareanie, the latter being extremely annoying for speed/cursepass as it hazes boosts. Additionally, with more speed from torch, it traps more. It's a great partner mon for a lot of teams that have a strong set-up sweeper/breaker and want a mon which removes the few checks said set up mon has. I've been using wynaut more since my last post and, as shrug already mentioned, I believe its ability to warp play and almost force your opponent into making certain plays makes it worthy of B+. If you're a non ghost defensive mon slower than wynaut and you're needed to check threats on the opponents team, you do not want to click a move that doesn't ohko wynaut. Foongus doesn't want to attack, mareanie doesn't want to attack, snub doesn't want to attack, poke doesn't want to attack (list goes on) so you're almost forced to double on the wynaut (which can be exploited and creates these 50/50 like mindgames) or go for a non-attacking move, which (barring spore and speedboosting moves) doesn't help as you get encored and lose momentum. Wynaut does a similar thing to almost all scarfers too. Scarf dod doesn't want to get a kill with anything that isnt knock (which fails to kill at full), scarf foo doesn't want to get a kill with a fighting move, scarf chou and mag don't want to trapped on anything not volt switch and the list goes on for most scarfers. Therefore, since most teams, especially offensive ones, rely on their scarf mon to revenge kill/force out key fast threats or slower scarfers, wynauts ability to remove scarf mons from the game or create mind games by forcing your opponent to double/predict wynaut makes it worthy of B+ imo. It traps a lot of great mons in the meta and creates a ton of mindgames just with its presence.
 
#45
Magnemite: A- to B

Sturdy Juice:
A powerful hitter, and the sturdy juice set can run max Sp Atk evs safely, without any real compromise. However, with the prominence of Onix as a rock setting lead, the sturdy-juice set is just becoming harder to use. The sturdy juice set requires hazards to be removed for it to work, or else it melts when it gets dirt flung at it. A weakness to fighting means it struggles against the popular fighting types running rampant in the tier, and also makes the set struggle against Doduo, which has access to jump kick. Additionally, Sturdy Juice Magnemite hates knock off, which is another reason it struggles against Doduo. Drilbur also does not care about Magnemite's sturdy.

Choice Scarf:
The Scarf set is punishing to switch-ins (especially if analytic is run), but this set forces the player to have to read switches from the opponent in early/mid game. The presence of an opposing Diglett, Trapinch, Onix, Drilbur, Mudbray or Chinchou can deter Magnemite from using volt switch. Each of these forces a switch or KOes it if switched in on a volt switch. Chinchou in particular can cause problems as it only fears HP ground. Additionally one of the benefits of scarf users is the element of surprise - the best scarfers will surprise an opponent by hitting first and hitting harder than expected. The scarf set only does more damage if it runs modest nature, which leaves it vulnerable to faster scarfers such as Drilbur, Mudbray and Chinchou or even other Magnemite.

Overall:
I think part of being an A tier mon is the difference between sets. Magnemite is predictable in terms of damage dealt, which means I struggle to see it deserving a place in the A tier. It also struggles a lot against the ever present knock off, fighting types and ground types (and also fire, but this is less common now)


Pumpkaboo-S: B to A-
Pumpkaboo is an excellent spinblocker which pairs nicely with onix. It also doubles up as a solid abra check (more so for the physical set), and a water/grass/ground/rock switch in. It's capability as a spinblocker stems from it's ability to soak a lot of attacks from spinblockers - although Staryu, Drilbur, Kabuto and Alolan-Sandshrew all have moves to threaten it. However, if Pumpkaboo can switch in without getting hurt too badly, it threatens each of these spinners.
In terms of checks, Pumpkaboo can burn Alolan-Grimer before it uses knock off, reducing the damage from knock off and crippling it, but generally Pumpkaboo doesn't want to stay in on knock offs or brave birds. However if at full health, Pumpkaboo can survive some powerful hits such as an icicle spear from Shellder (assuming they get 2/5 or less high rolls), and then sacrificially burn the target (e.g. physical birds) or ko it (e.g. shellder).
Also, did I even mention reliable recovery?!

Overall:
I think Pumpkaboo-S should move out of B tier because it looks after itself nicely and slots nicely into a lot of teams without too much team adjusting to fit it in.
 
Last edited:
#46
Remain C+

Clamperl is an interesting case. On one hand, it seems like an offensive powerhouse, access to a drawback-free, attack-doubling item as well as Shell Smash. It has decent coverage that is shared by other similar set up sweepers to it, and when it does get boosted there are not many Pokemon who can live an attack from it. But on the other hand, it is very challenging to facilitate a Clamperl sweep: Clamperl is frail, has no second typing to allow it to get in safer, and faces horribly against priority. Other Shell Smash sweepers still face similar challenges, to be fair, but they have more effective ways of dealing with them that do not rely on team support. For example, Omantye and Tirtouga have secondary Rock typings that enable them to better handle priority Quick Attacks from Doduo and priority Extreme Speeds from Zigzagoon. Clamperl is highly skewed in risk versus reward; the opponent has to respect Clamperl and cannot afford to play recklessly or they will lose, but a similar dilemma happens to the Clamperl user. Clamperl can really only set up once per game against most moderately good teams and thus you must time the moment that you click Shell Smash precisely and carefully or the opponent will pick off your Clamperl without a problem.

This high risk, high reward is just not favored in this metagame, especially with so many more similar options that provide a more safer win condition with a reward that will still allow the player to win the game. Say I am looking for a Shell Smash user for my team. The options are not limited in any sort of the term. In an offensive metagame, it will be helpful to have something that can reliably set up and consistently sweep opposing teams. I have Shellder, with a high defense and the powerful niche of multi-hit moves, which take advantage of the powerful roll mechanics, that allow Shellder to completely tear apart Sturdy users without having to worry about keeping hazards on the field. Not to mention Shellder's numerous other benefits: priority, good coverage, longevity, and having the best counters be mostly exclusive to Steel-types, making Shellder very easy to support. Omantye provides a special attacking Shell Smash sweeper with a dominant Water STAB, Hydro Pump, as well as the coverage of Earth Power making Steel-type checks (apart from Ferroseed) irrelevant. A secondary Rock typing is helpful to create switch-in opportunities (not as many as Shellder or Tirtouga, perhaps, yet they still exist) and with Flying-types everywhere it is never a bad option. Although this may stir some into believing that this causes a damaging Fighting weakness, the only Shell Smash user that really can switch into Fighting-types and get away with it is Shellder, and even then, the situation is not ideal. With any Mach Punch user ready, a sweep should not be gone for in the first place, so not much of a differention is made between the Water / Rock type and Clamperl. Next, Tirtouga is quite long-lived and focuses on its bulk and great defensive ability options (Sturdy and Solid Rock) to create set-up opportunities for itself. And as an overarching detail, all of these Pokemon can run Eviolite, which is huge for win conditions as it creates easier situations for set-up. Clamperl relies entirely on Deep Sea Tooth for its niche; other than that, you would be better off using any of the aforementioned sweepers. Overall, Clamperl is not consistently viable enough to move out of C+, and, while it can certainly succeed, finds itself often performing a role that another Pokemon just could have done better.

(As a short note, I would like to address that Shellder's bulk is not comparable to Clamperl's bulk. While they may look similar on paper, Shellder is running Eviolite and Clamperl is not. Eviolite Clamperl ruins the point of using Clamperl anyhow: at this point, Omantye is a much better option.)

Remain A
Pawniard has a lot going for it in the metagame right now. It has a good match up against webs, Dark STAB is especially useful currently with Abra and Gastly out and about, and Flying checks are needed on every team due to how commonplace Flying-types are. However, is it A+ material? In my opinion, no. Pawniard suffers from a case which is although it has many metagame trends and inherent strengths favorable toward it, Pawniard also has an equal amount of metagame trends and other flaws that are unfavorable to Pawniard. First off, Fighting types. Pawniard loses to Fighting types, which are one of the top things in this current meta, and definitely not something that you would want to lose to. To be fair, Iron Head does do considerable damage to Fighting-types on the switch, although not enough that I would really consider it to skew the matchup more towards Pawniard (Iron Head does the most to Croagunk where the max damage is 54.5%). Then, you instantaneously lose momentum after that because all Fighting-types force Pawniard out. Knock Off is another plausible option against Fighting switch-ins, but that does not solve the problem that Pawniard itself cannot hold ground against these Fighting-types. And if the Fighting-type does not switch in or you do not make the correct prediction on the switch then not only is the Pawniard user forced out, momentum is lost entirely. Another hinderance of Pawniard is that many Pokemon that it could normally check run coverage for it (generally HP Fighting). Abra, Gastly, Doduo, Rufflet, and sometimes Vullaby all run coverage for Pawn. Diglett and TrapNemite both can trap and eliminate Pawniard as well, though, granted, the latter is an uncommon sight.

Pawniard is a quite versatile Pokemon; however, its sets all come with their own weaknesses as well, along with the Fighting weakness. This is true of all Pokemon, of course, but with Pawniard the weaknesses are needed to be addressed in their own right, as they are important in describing its flaws as a whole. Pawniard doesn't do one job exceptionally well. As a Stealth Rock setter, it can be forced out by both Staryu, Drillbur, and both Sandshrews (so basically most Rapid Spinners). However, the reason Pawniard is a good Stealth Rock setter is that it pressures Defoggers. Rapid Spin users are more common though, which is unfortunate for Pawniard. Choice Scarf is a fairly good revenge killer but dying to Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave is a large drawback for one.

Now, don't get me wrong, Pawniard is a good, powerful Pokemon. But in my opinion, it is just not A+ material. It's weak to common types and doesn't perform one role exceptionally well. So, in conclusion, as effective as Pawniard can be, it is crippled by how easily it can be dealt with, which makes me of the opinion that Pawniard should remain A.

Some other noms I agree with but don't want to write paragraphs about:
Spritzee to A-
Great Vullaby and Dark check in general, useful in a metagame filled with Fighting and Dark types
Grimer-A to A
As troop leader Shrug said, good mon but still fails to check what it needs to on certain occasions, also easily trapped by Dig which isn't great for a wall
Pumpkaboo-S to B+
Will-O-Wisp is pretty great right now, and resisting Water is always nice, quite a helpful wall in the meta right now. A- is a little much for it imo

Thanks for reading!
 

blizzardy

Link Together With All
#47
Remain C+

Clamperl is an interesting case. On one hand, it seems like an offensive powerhouse, access to a drawback-free, attack-doubling item as well as Shell Smash. It has decent coverage that is shared by other similar set up sweepers to it, and when it does get boosted there are not many Pokemon who can live an attack from it. But on the other hand, it is very challenging to facilitate a Clamperl sweep: Clamperl is frail, has no second typing to allow it to get in safer, and faces horribly against priority. Other Shell Smash sweepers still face similar challenges, to be fair, but they have more effective ways of dealing with them that do not rely on team support. For example, Omantye and Tirtouga have secondary Rock typings that enable them to better handle priority Quick Attacks from Doduo and priority Extreme Speeds from Zigzagoon. Clamperl is highly skewed in risk versus reward; the opponent has to respect Clamperl and cannot afford to play recklessly or they will lose, but a similar dilemma happens to the Clamperl user. Clamperl can really only set up once per game against most moderately good teams and thus you must time the moment that you click Shell Smash precisely and carefully or the opponent will pick off your Clamperl without a problem.

This high risk, high reward is just not favored in this metagame, especially with so many more similar options that provide a more safer win condition with a reward that will still allow the player to win the game. Say I am looking for a Shell Smash user for my team. The options are not limited in any sort of the term. In an offensive metagame, it will be helpful to have something that can reliably set up and consistently sweep opposing teams. I have Shellder, with a high defense and the powerful niche of multi-hit moves, which take advantage of the powerful roll mechanics, that allow Shellder to completely tear apart Sturdy users without having to worry about keeping hazards on the field. Not to mention Shellder's numerous other benefits: priority, good coverage, longevity, and having the best counters be mostly exclusive to Steel-types, making Shellder very easy to support. Omantye provides a special attacking Shell Smash sweeper with a dominant Water STAB, Hydro Pump, as well as the coverage of Earth Power making Steel-type checks (apart from Ferroseed) irrelevant. A secondary Rock typing is helpful to create switch-in opportunities (not as many as Shellder or Tirtouga, perhaps, yet they still exist) and with Flying-types everywhere it is never a bad option. Although this may stir some into believing that this causes a damaging Fighting weakness, the only Shell Smash user that really can switch into Fighting-types and get away with it is Shellder, and even then, the situation is not ideal. With any Mach Punch user ready, a sweep should not be gone for in the first place, so not much of a differention is made between the Water / Rock type and Clamperl. Next, Tirtouga is quite long-lived and focuses on its bulk and great defensive ability options (Sturdy and Solid Rock) to create set-up opportunities for itself. And as an overarching detail, all of these Pokemon can run Eviolite, which is huge for win conditions as it creates easier situations for set-up. Clamperl relies entirely on Deep Sea Tooth for its niche; other than that, you would be better off using any of the aforementioned sweepers. Overall, Clamperl is not consistently viable enough to move out of C+, and, while it can certainly succeed, finds itself often performing a role that another Pokemon just could have done better.

(As a short note, I would like to address that Shellder's bulk is not comparable to Clamperl's bulk. While they may look similar on paper, Shellder is running Eviolite and Clamperl is not. Eviolite Clamperl ruins the point of using Clamperl anyhow: at this point, Omantye is a much better option.)

Remain A
Pawniard has a lot going for it in the metagame right now. It has a good match up against webs, Dark STAB is especially useful currently with Abra and Gastly out and about, and Flying checks are needed on every team due to how commonplace Flying-types are. However, is it A+ material? In my opinion, no. Pawniard suffers from a case which is although it has many metagame trends and inherent strengths favorable toward it, Pawniard also has an equal amount of metagame trends and other flaws that are unfavorable to Pawniard. First off, Fighting types. Pawniard loses to Fighting types, which are one of the top things in this current meta, and definitely not something that you would want to lose to. To be fair, Iron Head does do considerable damage to Fighting-types on the switch, although not enough that I would really consider it to skew the matchup more towards Pawniard (Iron Head does the most to Croagunk where the max damage is 54.5%). Then, you instantaneously lose momentum after that because all Fighting-types force Pawniard out. Knock Off is another plausible option against Fighting switch-ins, but that does not solve the problem that Pawniard itself cannot hold ground against these Fighting-types. And if the Fighting-type does not switch in or you do not make the correct prediction on the switch then not only is the Pawniard user forced out, momentum is lost entirely. Another hinderance of Pawniard is that many Pokemon that it could normally check run coverage for it (generally HP Fighting). Abra, Gastly, Doduo, Rufflet, and sometimes Vullaby all run coverage for Pawn. Diglett and TrapNemite both can trap and eliminate Pawniard as well, though, granted, the latter is an uncommon sight.

Pawniard is a quite versatile Pokemon; however, its sets all come with their own weaknesses as well, along with the Fighting weakness. This is true of all Pokemon, of course, but with Pawniard the weaknesses are needed to be addressed in their own right, as they are important in describing its flaws as a whole. Pawniard doesn't do one job exceptionally well. As a Stealth Rock setter, it can be forced out by both Staryu, Drillbur, and both Sandshrews (so basically most Rapid Spinners). However, the reason Pawniard is a good Stealth Rock setter is that it pressures Defoggers. Rapid Spin users are more common though, which is unfortunate for Pawniard. Choice Scarf is a fairly good revenge killer but dying to Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave is a large drawback for one.

Now, don't get me wrong, Pawniard is a good, powerful Pokemon. But in my opinion, it is just not A+ material. It's weak to common types and doesn't perform one role exceptionally well. So, in conclusion, as effective as Pawniard can be, it is crippled by how easily it can be dealt with, which makes me of the opinion that Pawniard should remain A.

Some other noms I agree with but don't want to write paragraphs about:
Spritzee to A-
Great Vullaby and Dark check in general, useful in a metagame filled with Fighting and Dark types
Grimer-A to A
As troop leader Shrug said, good mon but still fails to check what it needs to on certain occasions, also easily trapped by Dig which isn't great for a wall
Pumpkaboo-S to B+
Will-O-Wisp is pretty great right now, and resisting Water is always nice, quite a helpful wall in the meta right now. A- is a little much for it imo

Thanks for reading!
"Pawniard is a quite versatile Pokemon; however, its sets all come with their own weaknesses as well, along with the Fighting weakness. This is true of all Pokemon, of course, but with Pawniard the weaknesses are needed to be addressed in their own right, as they are important in describing its flaws as a whole."

Im not trying to sound like a dick but Im really not sure what youre trying to say here. Every Pokemon has weaknesses, and I dont agree that Pawniard's weaknesses are enough to outweigh its strengths. Also, Mienfoo has a 93.8% chance of being 2KO'd after it loses its eviolite. Considering how common 13 speed Foo/Scarf Pawn is, thats pretty scary. I dont think losing momentum is an argument, that same thing can be said for most Pokemon, including those already in A+ and S tiers. Besides, Knock Off/Iron Head is a very potent spammable core, so outside of its Fighting weakness there arent many other mons that can reliably switch into to Pawniard's attacks. Even Ponyta, risks 2KO after rocks, assuming no burn. The fact that so many mons are running coverage specifically for Pawniard (Vullaby would rather run HP Grass, Abra would rather run HP Ground/Fire) should be a testament to how infuential it is in the meta. Hell, just looking at the usage stats you'll see Pawniard is the second most used not S-ranked mon in 1760, and is ranked 5 in in 0-1630, above Timburr and Staryu. Sure it may not be the "best" at all the roles it can run, but its offensive and support abilities make it very unpredictable- a scary prospect given how hard it hits.

"As a Stealth Rock setter, it can be forced out by both Staryu, Drillbur, and both Sandshrews (so basically most Rapid Spinners)"

So? Pawniard wont be setting up on those mons and none of them really want to be switching in on it anyway. The point is that Pawniard CAN run these moves; its ability to fill many potential roles while keeping its power and ability to check a good portion of the metagame is what makes Pawniard the most threatening, in my opinion.
 

Fiend

the hound.
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#48
"Pawniard is a quite versatile Pokemon; however, its sets all come with their own weaknesses as well, along with the Fighting weakness. This is true of all Pokemon, of course, but with Pawniard the weaknesses are needed to be addressed in their own right, as they are important in describing its flaws as a whole."

Im not trying to sound like a dick but Im really not sure what youre trying to say here. Every Pokemon has weaknesses, and I dont agree that Pawniard's weaknesses are enough to outweigh its strengths. Also, Mienfoo has a 93.8% chance of being 2KO'd after it loses its eviolite. Considering how common 13 speed Foo/Scarf Pawn is, thats pretty scary. I dont think losing momentum is an argument, that same thing can be said for most Pokemon, including those already in A+ and S tiers. Besides, Knock Off/Iron Head is a very potent spammable core, so outside of its Fighting weakness there arent many other mons that can reliably switch into to Pawniard's attacks. Even Ponyta, risks 2KO after rocks, assuming no burn. The fact that so many mons are running coverage specifically for Pawniard (Vullaby would rather run HP Grass, Abra would rather run HP Ground/Fire) should be a testament to how infuential it is in the meta. Hell, just looking at the usage stats you'll see Pawniard is the second most used not S-ranked mon in 1760, and is ranked 5 in in 0-1630, above Timburr and Staryu. Sure it may not be the "best" at all the roles it can run, but its offensive and support abilities make it very unpredictable- a scary prospect given how hard it hits.

"As a Stealth Rock setter, it can be forced out by both Staryu, Drillbur, and both Sandshrews (so basically most Rapid Spinners)"

So? Pawniard wont be setting up on those mons and none of them really want to be switching in on it anyway. The point is that Pawniard CAN run these moves; its ability to fill many potential roles while keeping its power and ability to check a good portion of the metagame is what makes Pawniard the most threatening, in my opinion.
srry for shitty post but keyboard is busted and can't be bothered further. I would actually suggest that Pawn is being largely ignored. Heatwave + hp grass is the common np vullaby set and most abra are hp fire or ground. heatwave pretty much does what hp fighting does, and more anyway so anyone using hp fite is pretty wac or has a very specific need. i thin you're not seeing how much a fighting type can gain momentum in the metagame rn, and pawn therefore loses it easily. pawn is also incredibly predictable, since stabs then pursuit/s punch then either sd or sr if not scarf or sr or bb if scarf. and if it is not sr you can tell from team preview 70% of the time. pawn doesn't move, imo
 
#49
Regarding clamperl, I agree with your stance on deepseatooth clamperl. It's hard to pull off, sets up on little and isn't as consistent as other SS sweepers. However, I disagree with your stance on eviolite clamperl. I don't think it's directly outclassed by any other SS sweeper in the tier and I think it has enough advantages over other SS sweepers to both justify the usage of an eviolite set and an increase in ranking. I talked a bit in my previous post about why omanyte isn't the better SS sweeper so I'm going to expand on those points and show why clamperl has advantages over other common SS sweepers too.

Regarding omanyte, the main reason why I think clamperl isn't outclassed by omanyte (I actually believe evio clamperl is better as an SS sweeper) is because, in exchange for 4 spa points, clamperl is far more consistent as an SS sweeper. It sets up on far more in the metagame. You mentioned omanytes rock typing providing a nice resistance to flying types but, considering most flying types have ways to either flat out ohko omanyte or get hefty chip massively reduces its set up opportunities on the flying types it's supposed to resist. I made a quick list comparing omanyte and clamperl setting up ability on the common and viable flying types in the tier and, as shown by the list, even with omanytes flying resist, evio clamperl still sets up more consistently against the flying types.

Vullaby:

Both clamperl and omanyte can set up on physical vullaby sets. They take the exact same amount of damage from ko so they set up equally well on physical vullaby.
252 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 7-9 (35 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
Clamperl takes more from BB but it still sets up comfortably on vull and its less susceptible to prio if evio is not knocked. The only time omanyte really comes out on phys vull vs clamperl is if it sets up on scarf vull locked into bb.
252 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Omanyte cannot set up on special vull cause:
240+ SpA Vullaby Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
However, as highlighted in my previous post, clamperl easily sets up on special vull and can even set up on +2 vull at full.

Against vullaby, evio clamperl is far more consistent as an SS sweeper, setting up on more sets comfortably.

Doduo:

Scarf dod beats both omanyte and clamperl, since it outspeeds and revenges.

Bj dod beats omanyte if sub. Sub on the SS then:
236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
236 Atk Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 3-3 (14.2 - 14.2%) -- guaranteed 7HKO
Possible damage amounts: (3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
It also beats clamperl too.

Non sub bj dod doesn't beat either omanyte or clamperl. Both can set up on it.
Clamperl:
236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
236 Atk Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 6-7 (30 - 35%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7)
Omanyte:
236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)
236 Atk Doduo Quick Attack vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 3-3 (14.2 - 14.2%) -- guaranteed 7HKO
Possible damage amounts: (3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
Assuming the most likely rolls occur, omanyte ends up with 1hp more after set up and dead dod, so they set up pretty equally against this set.

Both mons get bopped by lo dod, neither can set up on it.

Against dod, they set up equally well against one set, get bopped by the other two. Again, flying resist isn't particularly useful when compared to evio clamperl.

Rufflet:

Omanyte is likely to die to superpower without rocks and guaranteed death after rocks so you can't set up on any non-scarf set.
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Superpower vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Clamperl takes any one hit from rufflet, unless its z move. Therefore, you set up on any non-z move set or lo (idk if lo is a set, never seen it personally)
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
Regarding the most common scarf set, omanyte admittedly happily sets up on rufflet locked into bb or return or u-turn and takes little, while clamperl takes a lot of damage. However, since rufflet has access to u-turn, opponents can prevent omanyte smashing by nabbing kills on weakened mons with u-turn to prevent set up or clicking u-turn on forced switchins. I think omanyte overall sets up better vs rufflet but the fact that clamperl also can do this is great for it imo.

Taillow:

The most common mixed lo set bops omanyte with hp grass.
196 SpA Life Orb Taillow Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 26)
Clamperl takes any hit so can set up on it.
196 SpA Life Orb Taillow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
0 Atk Life Orb Taillow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

The physical facade set isn't common at all. Taillow in general isn't a flying type you often see, but if you do face off against it, omanyte can't set up on it, clamperl can.

Pikipek:

Neither set up on non-scarf due to bullet seed. Regarding scarf, omanyte sets up better on scarf sets, since it takes far less from return and bb. Clamperl takes any hit from pikipek barring bs relatively well but omanyte sets up better against the scarf set. Similar to rufflet, pikipek has u-turn to prevent being set up bait.
236 Atk Pikipek Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Wingull:

This is the only flying type where omanyte has a distinct advantage over clamperl. Clamperl takes a lot from lo hurricane.
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 13-17 (65 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
Clamperl almost guaranteed dies to SSSS after rocks.
236 SpA Wingull Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clamperl: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

Omanyte takes far less from hurricane and SSSS so omanyte sets up far more easily on wingull.

Archen:

Special archen is rare but hp grass bops omanyte.
Regarding the physical offensive set, clamperl sets up against it
180 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 10-13 (50 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
Omanyte takes more damage from eq.
180 Atk Archen Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)
Both omanyte and clamperl take the exact same amount from head smash so there's no distinguishing them there.
180 Atk Archen Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
Overall, I think clamperl has a slight edge over omanyte just cause archen can be the rare hp grass with spa investment.


To summarise that list, even though evio clamperl doesn't resist flying, it sets up more consistently against most flying types and barring a few exceptions, takes less or a similar amount of damage as omanyte in order to set up. The only times omanyte has an advantage is against wingull, scarf piki not locked into bs, scarf rufflet not locked into superpower and scarf vull. However, all four mons above carry u-turn, so they can prevent being set up fodder by nabbing a kill with u-turn or killing a sack which doesn't die to hazards with u-turn

Felines said:
A secondary Rock typing is helpful to create switch-in opportunities (not as many as Shellder or Tirtouga, perhaps, yet they still exist) and with Flying-types everywhere it is never a bad option.
Switching into anything with your SS sweeper is generally a bad move, since taking damage limits set up opportunities later in the game. With omanyte specifically, switching into flying types is super risky since they all (barring wingull) carry SE coverage which hits omanyte hard and the common scarf flying types and wingull have u-turn so you may just end up taking chip and losing momentum. Overall, the flying resistance looks nice on paper but doesn't really do much for omanyte in practice since evio clamperl sets up more constently or takes a similar amount of damage as omanyte when setting up on most flying types. The normal resist is solid though, I can't really argue against that because taking less from normal priority is great for omanyte. However, as shown in my previous post, evio clamperl takes little damage from unboosted normal stab at -1 anyway so it has the option of taking a reasonably hard hit, setting up, then living common forms of prio to sweep. Omanyte doesn't boast that, due to its weakness to mach and vacuum wave.

The flying resist in practice doesn't offer as much as you would think when compared to clamperl. However, the weakness to fighting and ground is pretty huge for omanyte imo. Firstly, it prevents set up against the most commonly used mon in lc in mienfoo.
236 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
Bulky foo is pretty common rn but even so
0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
After rocks, omanyte is dead or has a high chance to be dead. Evio clamperl comfortably sets up on the no1 most used mon in lc, which is already great but being able to set up on every fighting type in lc barring iron fist timburr and gunk is something evio clamperl can boast but not omanyte.
Considering how common scarf foo + timburr fightspam teams are, clamperl's ability to (barring max rolls) take a regen scarffoo hjk, set up, then take the iron fist mach at -1 is super solid.
The weakness to ground results in omanyte being unable to set up on drilbur, mudbray and diglett. Clamperl reliably sets up on first two and can potentially set up on dig, depending on set.

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
196+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Clamperl: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
196+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)


Felines said:
Omantye provides a special attacking Shell Smash sweeper with a dominant Water STAB, Hydro Pump, as well as the coverage of Earth Power making Steel-type checks (apart from Ferroseed) irrelevant.
Regarding earth power, it's a coverage option that looks solid on paper but, in practice, isn't nearly as good as it appears. Regarding steel types, the three viable steel types in the tier are ferro, mag and pawn. Earth power is neutral and fails to ohko ferro at +2. Sturdy juice mag beats omanyte so earth power is pretty irrelevant for that. If not sturdy juice but scarf, clamperl ohkos with +2 surf regardless. Setting up SS with either omanyte or clamperl when pawn is alive isn't ideal because sucker does a lot to -1 omanyte and clamperl.
252 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
Same rolls for clamperl.
+2 surf from clamperl ohkos every other semi-viable steel type in lc barring honedge so the earth power coverage isn't too useful for steel types.

Earth power is admittedly nice for the poison types that resist water or take a +2 hit from clamperl, such as grimer A, mareanie and skrelp, it comes with the disadvantage of doing less to pure water types like staryu and being unable to guarantee the ohko on shellder from full which turns a sweep into a 50/50 chance of getting reverse swept or losing omanyte and letting something else take hefty damage.

Overall, with the info above and my last post, I believe that evio clamperl is actually a better special SS sweeper than omanyte. For 4 less spa, you get a special SS sweeper which sets up on far more and more consistently than omanyte. Due to this, it requires less team support to function and is far easier to put on a team compared to omanyte. It provides that safer win condition you describe, as you give up slight offensive power for much greater set up consistency.

When comparing it to other SS sweepers, I feel it has enough advantages over them to not be outclassed by them.
When compared to shellder, the niches that clamperl provides are not huge but shellder is A for a reason. I highlighted a few advantages in my previous post about clamperl but to reiterate:

Evio clamperl takes special attacks better than shellder due to 3 more spdef points so can set up on stuff like lo staryu tbolt, non-eball lo abra, volt switch chinchou, +2 vull and probs some other stuff. It also doesn't fear scald burn.
Evio clamperl avoids any form of wa 50/50s. The most notable one is staryu and wa onix but kabuto and omanyte can take +2 icicle spear with wa and proceed to revenge shellder. Ice shard on shellder negates these 50/50s but then shellder has issues with mag and mudbray.
Evio clamperl ohkos common bj mons at +2 straight or after rocks (barring ferro) so clamperl does not fear random bj mons like shellder does.
Evio clamperl is not affected by intimidate.
With shell armour and 100% accurate moves, clamperl is far less likely to get haxed. Crit can ruin a shellder sweep and rock blast missing is annoying but clamperl avoids that.

When comparing clamperl with tirtouga, clamperl has some advantages:

26 speed is huge. Tirtouga hitting 24 after SS leaves it vulnerable to being revenged by scarf mienfoo, scarf piki, scarf chinchou and speed tying with 24 speed scarfers isn't great, since rufflet revenges with superpower, bunnelby has 15/16 chance to kill with eq after 4 hp chip etc but +2 jet cant ohko these faster scarfers. While tirtouga is bulkier than clamperl and has a great ability in solid rock, allowing it to set up on some super effective hits, the speed tier is meh for an SSer.
Tirtouga also suffers from 4mss. You want jet to be dig proof and pick off a lot of weakened, faster scarfers, you want zhb for gunk, foon, you want eq for pawn, grimer-a, you want waterfall for consistence, unmissable damage since edge misses.
Weakness to vac/mach is annoying since it can shut down a sweep early. However, +2 ajet can kill a weakened timburr which is nice and plays sucker games with pawn.
Fears scald burn and is annoyed by intimidate.

I've never used tirtouga as a sweeper so I may be underestimating its abilities. On paper, it looks to be able to set up on more when compared to clamperl and omanyte but the 24 speed really blows for a mon which wants to sweep.

Clamperl does have some disadvantages over the other SS sweepers. It runs a fixed movepool of SS, beam, surf and hp grass, so your opponent knows exactly what to expect when they see it. Shellder has a pretty customisable 4th move in shard, hydro or razor shell depending on what you want and tirtouga's movepool is pretty customisable depending on what you want, which offers some element of surprise. As highlighted by my previous post, it's also a bit underwhelming offensively but this can be solved by the little team support it needs. It's also limited in what sets it can run, being either evio smash or deepseatooth smash. Omanyte and tirtouga can run hazard sets, so they have other uses barring a sweeping set. However, such sets can often be worked out at team preview or after a few turns. Overall, I think evio clamperl is better than omanyte as an SS sweeper and has enough niches over shellder and tirtouga to not be outclassed by any of them and it's good enough to be either B- or even B.



I agree with mag dropping but I think that B+ is fairer for mag. B is a bit too low imo. Enzolapras stated some solid reasons for its dropping, which I agree with.
The choice scarf set is slow for a scarfer so it doesn't offer much in the way of speed control but, more importantly, the almost constant 50/50s you have when using this mon makes it hard to use. Almost every team packs an electric immunity and staryu is also super common so scarf mag almost always faces a volt switch/flash cannon 50/50 early/mid game or you double but get the play wrong and mag is dead or you lose a lot of momentum. Being locked into flash cannon also provides set up opportunities for most SS sweepers. Lo elekid offers a similar level of damage output, without the disadvantage of being locked into a move and the advantage of diglett risking a speedtie if it wants to trap (barring scarf or weakened sucker). Chinchou is weaker in terms of power as a scarfer, but chinchou comes with the benefits of more speed and better defensive typing, allowing it to switch into a decent amount of stuff like defensive staryu, mag, other chou etc
Sturdy bj can be solid in some matchups but the weakness to knock and the prevalent fighting types, the fact that it's a pretty shaky flying check which can't reliably switch in since it dies to most SE coverage from flying types after hazards or gets knocked or u-turned on and the fact that its a shaky shellder check if not at full since endure is a 50/50 means that, more often than not, it finds itself underwhelming most times you use the bj set.
Trap mag with evio or electrium Z is cool but it's pretty niche, being able to only trap two mons in pawn and ferro. Both pawn and ferro are common and electrium Z can act as a one time nuke when pawn isn't present but, again, the presence of electric immunities makes this set a bit underwhelming when one of the two mons it traps isn't on the opponents team.
Overall, I think it's a bit underwhelming when compared to the other mons in A- but it's definitely better than B. 19/20 spa is still really strong.
 
#50
Simbo said:
Regarding clamperl, I agree with your stance on deepseatooth clamperl. It's hard to pull off, sets up on little and isn't as consistent as other SS sweepers. However, I disagree with your stance on eviolite clamperl. I don't think it's directly outclassed by any other SS sweeper in the tier and I think it has enough advantages over other SS sweepers to both justify the usage of an eviolite set and an increase in ranking. I talked a bit in my previous post about why omanyte isn't the better SS sweeper so I'm going to expand on those points and show why clamperl has advantages over other common SS sweepers too.

Regarding omanyte, the main reason why I think clamperl isn't outclassed by omanyte (I actually believe evio clamperl is better as an SS sweeper) is because, in exchange for 4 spa points, clamperl is far more consistent as an SS sweeper. It sets up on far more in the metagame. You mentioned omanytes rock typing providing a nice resistance to flying types but, considering most flying types have ways to either flat out ohko omanyte or get hefty chip massively reduces its set up opportunities on the flying types it's supposed to resist. I made a quick list comparing omanyte and clamperl setting up ability on the common and viable flying types in the tier and, as shown by the list, even with omanytes flying resist, evio clamperl still sets up more consistently against the flying types.

List (open)



To summarise that list, even though evio clamperl doesn't resist flying, it sets up more consistently against most flying types and barring a few exceptions, takes less or a similar amount of damage as omanyte in order to set up. The only times omanyte has an advantage is against wingull, scarf piki not locked into bs, scarf rufflet not locked into superpower and scarf vull. However, all four mons above carry u-turn, so they can prevent being set up fodder by nabbing a kill with u-turn or killing a sack which doesn't die to hazards with u-turn

fat Felines said:
A secondary Rock typing is helpful to create switch-in opportunities (not as many as Shellder or Tirtouga, perhaps, yet they still exist) and with Flying-types everywhere it is never a bad option.
Switching into anything with your SS sweeper is generally a bad move, since taking damage limits set up opportunities later in the game. With omanyte specifically, switching into flying types is super risky since they all (barring wingull) carry SE coverage which hits omanyte hard and the common scarf flying types and wingull have u-turn so you may just end up taking chip and losing momentum. Overall, the flying resistance looks nice on paper but doesn't really do much for omanyte in practice since evio clamperl sets up more constently or takes a similar amount of damage as omanyte when setting up on most flying types. The normal resist is solid though, I can't really argue against that because taking less from normal priority is great for omanyte. However, as shown in my previous post, evio clamperl takes little damage from unboosted normal stab at -1 anyway so it has the option of taking a reasonably hard hit, setting up, then living common forms of prio to sweep. Omanyte doesn't boast that, due to its weakness to mach and vacuum wave.

The flying resist in practice doesn't offer as much as you would think when compared to clamperl. However, the weakness to fighting and ground is pretty huge for omanyte imo. Firstly, it prevents set up against the most commonly used mon in lc in mienfoo.
236 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
Bulky foo is pretty common rn but even so
0 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
After rocks, omanyte is dead or has a high chance to be dead. Evio clamperl comfortably sets up on the no1 most used mon in lc, which is already great but being able to set up on every fighting type in lc barring iron fist timburr and gunk is something evio clamperl can boast but not omanyte.
Considering how common scarf foo + timburr fightspam teams are, clamperl's ability to (barring max rolls) take a regen scarffoo hjk, set up, then take the iron fist mach at -1 is super solid.
The weakness to ground results in omanyte being unable to set up on drilbur, mudbray and diglett. Clamperl reliably sets up on first two and can potentially set up on dig, depending on set.

calcs (open)



fat Felines said:
Omantye provides a special attacking Shell Smash sweeper with a dominant Water STAB, Hydro Pump, as well as the coverage of Earth Power making Steel-type checks (apart from Ferroseed) irrelevant.​
Regarding earth power, it's a coverage option that looks solid on paper but, in practice, isn't nearly as good as it appears. Regarding steel types, the three viable steel types in the tier are ferro, mag and pawn. Earth power is neutral and fails to ohko ferro at +2. Sturdy juice mag beats omanyte so earth power is pretty irrelevant for that. If not sturdy juice but scarf, clamperl ohkos with +2 surf regardless. Setting up SS with either omanyte or clamperl when pawn is alive isn't ideal because sucker does a lot to -1 omanyte and clamperl.
252 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
Same rolls for clamperl.
+2 surf from clamperl ohkos every other semi-viable steel type in lc barring honedge so the earth power coverage isn't too useful for steel types.

Earth power is admittedly nice for the poison types that resist water or take a +2 hit from clamperl, such as grimer A, mareanie and skrelp, it comes with the disadvantage of doing less to pure water types like staryu and being unable to guarantee the ohko on shellder from full which turns a sweep into a 50/50 chance of getting reverse swept or losing omanyte and letting something else take hefty damage.

Overall, with the info above and my last post, I believe that evio clamperl is actually a better special SS sweeper than omanyte. For 4 less spa, you get a special SS sweeper which sets up on far more and more consistently than omanyte. Due to this, it requires less team support to function and is far easier to put on a team compared to omanyte. It provides that safer win condition you describe, as you give up slight offensive power for much greater set up consistency.

When comparing it to other SS sweepers, I feel it has enough advantages over them to not be outclassed by them.
When compared to shellder, the niches that clamperl provides are not huge but shellder is A for a reason. I highlighted a few advantages in my previous post about clamperl but to reiterate:

Evio clamperl takes special attacks better than shellder due to 3 more spdef points so can set up on stuff like lo staryu tbolt, non-eball lo abra, volt switch chinchou, +2 vull and probs some other stuff. It also doesn't fear scald burn.
Evio clamperl avoids any form of wa 50/50s. The most notable one is staryu and wa onix but kabuto and omanyte can take +2 icicle spear with wa and proceed to revenge shellder. Ice shard on shellder negates these 50/50s but then shellder has issues with mag and mudbray.
Evio clamperl ohkos common bj mons at +2 straight or after rocks (barring ferro) so clamperl does not fear random bj mons like shellder does.
Evio clamperl is not affected by intimidate.
With shell armour and 100% accurate moves, clamperl is far less likely to get haxed. Crit can ruin a shellder sweep and rock blast missing is annoying but clamperl avoids that.

When comparing clamperl with tirtouga, clamperl has some advantages:

26 speed is huge. Tirtouga hitting 24 after SS leaves it vulnerable to being revenged by scarf mienfoo, scarf piki, scarf chinchou and speed tying with 24 speed scarfers isn't great, since rufflet revenges with superpower, bunnelby has 15/16 chance to kill with eq after 4 hp chip etc but +2 jet cant ohko these faster scarfers. While tirtouga is bulkier than clamperl and has a great ability in solid rock, allowing it to set up on some super effective hits, the speed tier is meh for an SSer.
Tirtouga also suffers from 4mss. You want jet to be dig proof and pick off a lot of weakened, faster scarfers, you want zhb for gunk, foon, you want eq for pawn, grimer-a, you want waterfall for consistence, unmissable damage since edge misses.
Weakness to vac/mach is annoying since it can shut down a sweep early. However, +2 ajet can kill a weakened timburr which is nice and plays sucker games with pawn.
Fears scald burn and is annoyed by intimidate.

I've never used tirtouga as a sweeper so I may be underestimating its abilities. On paper, it looks to be able to set up on more when compared to clamperl and omanyte but the 24 speed really blows for a mon which wants to sweep.

Clamperl does have some disadvantages over the other SS sweepers. It runs a fixed movepool of SS, beam, surf and hp grass, so your opponent knows exactly what to expect when they see it. Shellder has a pretty customisable 4th move in shard, hydro or razor shell depending on what you want and tirtouga's movepool is pretty customisable depending on what you want, which offers some element of surprise. As highlighted by my previous post, it's also a bit underwhelming offensively but this can be solved by the little team support it needs. It's also limited in what sets it can run, being either evio smash or deepseatooth smash. Omanyte and tirtouga can run hazard sets, so they have other uses barring a sweeping set. However, such sets can often be worked out at team preview or after a few turns. Overall, I think evio clamperl is better than omanyte as an SS sweeper and has enough niches over shellder and tirtouga to not be outclassed by any of them and it's good enough to be either B- or even B.
Okay I don't really want to get in a large argument about this so this will prob be my last post on the topic but just a few quick things. I'm not sure why you're focusing so much on Evio Clamperl. The only advantage I can see Evio Clamperl having that Evio Omanyte does not is that it doesn't get destroyed by random HP Grass moves but that really is it. Clamperl's niche is Deep Sea Tooth. Other than that, it is outclassed. Sure, it's not OHKOed by HP Grass but if that's your main argument you just as well could use Shellder. Evio Clamperl misses a lot of crucial +2 KOs that Omanyte gets such as Mienfoo, Foongus, Grimer-A, etc. Also Clamperl doesn't set up consistently; it does the opposite in fact, because of how it has no secondary typing and its Defense stat isn't that great, especially compared to other SS sweepers. DST Clamperl is just better than Evio Clamperl, and I know that Evio Clamperl is the crux of your argument and all that but it really is this simple. I can respect your opinion on Clamperl but I think C+ is a perfectly good rank for it, not consistent enough to be a sight on many competitive teams but considerable enough so that it can fit on a good team.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.