SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

scpinion

Congrats Monotype community! :)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#1


(art by Acast)

Welcome to the Monotype metagame discussion thread!
Sample Teams / Viability Rankings / Smogon's Strategy Dex / Monotype on Showdown / Beginner's Guide

If you're new to the OM forum, Monotype is a really simple concept; you build a team of six Pokemon sharing one common type and fight against teams with the same restriction. You are allowed to use Pokemon with dual-typing on a team represented by either type, but every other Pokemon must share at least one type with the dual-typed Pokemon. For example, you can use Gyarados, a Water/Flying-type Pokemon, on a Mono-Water or a Mono-Flying team. If you choose Gyarados, you can also use Lanturn, a Water/Electric-type Pokemon, and create a Mono-Water team with the two of them, but you cannot use Zapdos, a Flying/Electric-type Pokemon, on that team because it does not share a type with Gyarados and Lanturn.


Some Mega Evolutions change their typing upon Mega Evolving. When using a Mega Evolution that changes its typing, the Mega Evolution must retain the original typing of the team. In practice, this means is that you can use Mega Gyarados on a Mono-Water team, but you may not use it on a Mono-Flying team (because Mega Gyarados isn't a Flying type) or a Mono-Dark team (because regular Gyarados isn't a Dark type. Similarly, Mega Aggron can only be used on Mono-Steel, despite its base form being allowed on Mono-Rock teams. If you're ever unsure if a Mega Evolution is legal on your team, you can check the legality of your team in the Teambuilder on Pokemon Showdown!


Using six Pokemon of the same type can lead to some interesting team archetypes, and it challenges teambuilders to make sure the common weaknesses a certain type of Pokemon share are covered as best as possible. This metagame allows for all kinds of Pokemon to be viable against top threats, so be imaginative. As you play, you'll find many unique threats that aren't common in the usage based tiers.

The Monotype metagame features builds from all playstyles—Offense, Balance, and Stall. The playstyle will often reflect the Pokemon available on that type. For instance, there are many strong offensive Fighting types, but the type lacks reliable defensive Pokemon. As such, a Stall Fighting-type team is hard to make, while Offensive Fighting is viable. The best Monotype players build and play a wide variety of types, using teams that capitalize on the strengths of an individual type. Forcing your favorite type into an archetype that it will struggle to pull off is a good way to lose matches and get frustrated!


Tiering and Discussion
Monotype has its own tiering, which is based on the tiering philosophy. The metagame is led by a 7-man council, each with an equal say in tiering decisions.

You may find the current banlist in the Monotype entry on the Smogdex.
This thread is meant for discussion—not just requesting bans! That said, if you feel anything not on these banlists is too overpowered for the meta, this is the place to discuss it. All tiering discussion should be framed within the context of the Monotype Tiering Philosophy, which you can find below. Additionally, if you want to recommend a Pokemon for suspect testing, include some evidence and reasoning why you think said Pokemon is broken. Just saying something like, "I think Kyurem-Black should be banned because it has base 170 Attack." is a post that will get deleted, and it won't get you taken seriously. Back up your claim with replays showing how the Pokemon is overpowered in practice. Tell us how it interacts against other types/playstyles, what checks and counters it, its role on the team type(s) where it's played (going back to the Kyurem-Black example, how does it play on Mono-Ice vs. Mono-Dragon?), and so on. If you need any advice or have any questions on things you think are broken but are unsure what the best way to post is, contact a member of the Monotype Council either through message or on Showdown in the Monotype room.

As a final thought, before you post, think about what you're saying and whether it adds anything to the conversation or sparks discussion. If not, add to it until it does. Let's make an effort to have fun while keeping a certain level of mature conversation!

Special note: This thread is for metagame discussion, not tiering philosophy discussion. If you would like to propose a policy change then please start a private message with the members of the Monotype council. If the council would like to field general discussion on the tiering philosophy then it will make a post requesting input from the community.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

scpinion

Congrats Monotype community! :)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#2
Plan for Tiering the Early Metagame
a) Start with a Minimalistic Banlist
Each member of the council was allowed to interpret this idea as liberally as they liked. We held a vote that included most everything that is currently banned (all cover legends and obviously OP things were excluded). Elements that received 4/7 votes begin the gen7 metagame banned. The primary goal is to allow the community to evaluate these elements in the new metagame. We don't expect all this stuff to be healthy, but we want to test it.

Unbanned from ORAS: Aegislash, Altarianite, Blaziken(-mega), Charizardite X, Darkrai, Damp Rock, Genesect, Greninja, Metagrossite, Sablenite, Slowbronite, Smooth Rock, Talonflame.

Remains Banned: , Deoxys(-Attack), Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Lucarionite, Mawilite.

New Gen7 Mons that are Banned: Lunala, Solgaleo

b) Aggressively Tier the Early SuMo Metagame via Council Decisions
Every ~7-14 days the council will take a vote on things the community has identified as problematic. Our options will be: ban, no ban, or wait. This way you guys know where the council stands on controversial elements in the early stages of the metagame. This system is predicated on your participation in this thread. If you have problems with elements of the metagame, this is the place to bring them up! We, the council, will be active and engaged so we can work together as a community to rapidly reach a healthy metagame.

Important Note: We're going implement bans without a suspect test in the early stages. Likely, some of you will be unhappy with these bans and, if history is a good indicator, you'll be vocal about it. Please try to keep the discussion mature and civil! These decisions are not irreversible—the metagame will certainly develop over time and we will likely revisit some of our initial bans through the suspect process.

c) Avoid borderline cases in council decisions.
After the initial period where the council makes decisions as described above, we will shift to the standard Smogon suspect process. During the time where bans will come directly from the council, we will avoid borderline cases. To enforce this, any council ban will require a 5 out of 7 supermajority. We want to have a healthy suspect process after the early metagame. This means suspecting troublesome elements that remain in the metagame and potentially revisiting things that were initially banned. Most importantly, this policy allows you, the community, to tier elements that are not blatantly broken.

History of Tiering Decisions for Gen 7 Monotype

Suspect #2 - Magearna
Voter ID Thread
Result: Ban

Quickban #1 - Marshadow

Suspect #1 - Medichamite
Voter ID Thread
Result: Ban

Round #6 of Council Bans:
Mega Metagross, Hoopa-Unbound, Baton Pass

Round #5 of Council Bans:
Ash Greninja (Battle Bond)

Round #4 of Council Bans:
Kartana, Zygarde 50%

Round #3 of Council Bans:
Tapu Lele, Zygarde 10%

Round #2 of Council Bans:
Darkrai, Genesect

Round #1 of Council Bans:
Power Construct, Aegislash, Pheromosa, Terrain Extender, Blaziken, Damp Rock, Smooth Rock. Also, added Z-moves to Baton Pass and Evasion Clause.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

scpinion

Congrats Monotype community! :)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#3
The Monotype council:
The council leads the metagame, decides what should be suspected, and may implement bans. In general, the council requires a 4/7 majority to start a suspect. After the initial phase of tiering, the council can consider banning elements without a suspect test if they can come to a unanimous decision, but only after the community has had the opportunity to discuss the element in question.

Council members are meant to be model members of this community, they are selected based on a range of qualities:
– Strong understanding of the Monotype metagame
– Battling prowess
– Insightful forum posts, particularly in discussion threads
– Respectful, mature posting habits
– Forum and Simulator activity
 
Last edited by a moderator:

scpinion

Congrats Monotype community! :)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#4
Let's keep the thread on topic with a civil/mature tone. Also, make sure your posts are substantive.

Things we wanna see in these early stages:
New sets
New teams
New cores
etc.

Once the metagame is implemented into PS we'll focus on balancing/discussing the metagame itself.

You can now post.
 
#5
It's early but holy cow, the ultra beasts are so powerful. Beast boost is just...yeah...
Seems like everything is geared towards heavy offense given the Ultra Beasts and terrain/weather wars
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#6
I'd like to start off some early discussion, since we do have a lot of really powerful Pokemon to look at right now. One of the best teams in the metagame right now is Electric, using Terrain Extender Tapu Koko along with Alolan Raichu, Xurkitree, and Alolan Golem. Having 8 turns of Electric Terrain is quite ridiculous, when Alolan Raichu can outspeed the whole metagame, Tail Glow Xurkitree has more than enough time to set up, and both Choice Specs Xurkitree and Alolan Golem can be pivoted in safely with Volt Switch to wallbreak basically anything lacking the Ground typing in the metagame right now. As examples, Choice Specs Xurkitree can 2HKO Chansey after Stealth Rock damage, and Life Orb Jolly Alolan Golem can outspeed and OHKO Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn with Explosion. While Xurkitree and Alolan Golem are both pretty slow, Electric teams absolutely excel at gaining momentum with their use of Volt Switch. Given that Tapu Koko can pivot out right after it sets Electric Terrain, and that almost the team can pivot, it's incredibly easy to bring in one of the three primary abusers with time to spare.

Thus, I'd like to start off by asking: what are your current thoughts on Terrain Extender hugely empowering Electric teams? Feel free to discuss Terrain Extender, Tapu Koko, or the Tapu Koko / Alolan Raichu / Xurkitree and Tapu Koko / Xurkitree / Alolan Golem cores themselves.

As an additional side note, while Psychic might not be as powerful as Electric right now (Imagine saying this a week ago), Tapu Lele's can still set up 8 turns of Psychic Terrain with Terrain Extender. While Tapu Lele would enjoy having a damage-boosting item, Terrain Extender allows it to support its team for many more turns. This is 8 turns where the likes of Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and even Shadow Sneak-using Aegislash are greatly crippled, which could completely turn around a game. It doesn't help that Psychic Terrain is also boosting Psychic-type STAB attacks by 50%. To put this into perspective, Choice Specs Hoopa-U will 2HKO Porygon2 100% of the time, and even Mega Gardevoir can 2HKO Chansey 100% of the time after Stealth Rock damage.
 
#7
Reading ur post and those calcs and getting a chance to play apples using elec terrian id have to agree with elecs ability to get momentum very easily. I think similarly to damp rock and smooth rock these terrain extenders are something we will have to keep a very close eye on early as the metagame develops. Being able to come in and basically spam adaptability level attacks with regular mons is kinda crazy. I like seeing a ton of the unbans as we can see how our metagame develops with mega alt and mega slowbro which im personally excited to see. Im also really excited to see zard x + drought Tokoal Gen 7 hype!!
 
#8
As basically an elec-only user, I don't think it's fair to allow terrain extenders. It's not really any different than allowing weather rocks. Electric still struggles with ground or grass teams from my one day of play so far, and struggles against priority greatly. But if the opposing team has none of those, it is easy to run rampant over them, especially if you abuse the terrain with an extender on Koko.
 
#9
So just from some practice games vs friends i can say that the tapus are really good and that fairy is definitely going to be top tier this meta because of them and addition of better defensive mons.
 
#10
After testing with friends and watching them play i think its pretty safe to say that most of the Ultra Beasts shouldn't be allowed in Monotype. Pheromosa for example is a very dominant wall breaker and super threatening sweeper with the ability Beast Boost. It has 137 attack, 137 special attack and 151 speed paired up with a great move pool including HJK, Bug Buzz, Ice Beam and U-turn. Im not saying all of them are outright broken, few of them have flaws like Kartana’s movepool and Nihilegos poor typing(EDIT: Endal actually made few nice points how the typing is really good for Poison since it walls Volc and provides a flying resist). Still atleast Pheromosa, Buzzwhole and Xurkitree should be heavily looked in to when SM Monotype launches on PS!

The Tapus are pretty interesting topic. Eien summed up really well how Tapu Koko really makes Electric one of the best if not the best types to use in SM monotype. Tapu Koko is also a massive threat on Fairy since it can just plow through Flying and Water. Eien also brought up how Tapu Lele combined with Hoopa-U and Mega-Gardevoir looks really terrifying, and i agree i think Tapu Lele is probably too good for monotype. Terrain Extender should also be looked in to. It’s already said how much it benefits Tapu Koko on Electric and Tapu Lele on Psychic but what about Tapu Bulu on grass. I can already see Tapu Bulu / Serperior and Tapu Bulu / Kartana cores being really strong. Tapu Fini looks like a great pokemon but im not sure if it adds anything to Water or Fairy teams.

When all of the obvious stuff will get banned such as Pheromosa, Magearna and so on, it will be fun to see what type will be the best.
My guess would be Water since it has gotten some nice subtle additions. Pelipper getting Drizzle and Damp Rock being unbanned makes Swift Swim very scary. Also Mega-Slowbro and Greninja are both nifty unbans but i doubt how long they will last in the metagame.
 
Last edited:

scpinion

Congrats Monotype community! :)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#11
Testing the meta has been a blast over the last ~36 hours.

I agree with you guys about banning the obviously broken elements. Pheromosa is completely broken and the most obvious offender from these early stages. I'm less inclined to say all the UBs are so broken that we need to ban them immediately. Things like Damp Rock, Greninja (I've been using this quite a bit), Aegislash, and (Mega) Blaziken are all too strong for the meta and can easily check some of the other really strong stuff.

The Tapus (yes, I finally spelled Tapu correctly) are really interesting and the Terrains are cool. However, as someone pointed out in the other thread, their benefits aren't explicitly "better" than Weather's. We know from experience that 8 turns of Weather is something the Monotype metagame struggles to adapt to. I actually think we did a good job with Weather back in gen6, so I prefer a similar approach to Terrain. Nerf the element in a step-wise manner, removing the extender before banning setters/abusers. That said, Tapu Lele is likely just too strong for us, even with only 5 turns of terrain.

On the topic of these new Electric cores that everyone is using: I actually think we have a chance to adapt to them. The really rely on spamming Electric attacks, and almost every ORAS build (which some of our new builds are mimicking) isn't prepared to handle strong Electric attacks. I'm not saying it will certainly happen, but I think many types can adapt. For instance, Scarf Xurkitree (it is open for discussion why people aren't using it to wall break :P) can't break SpDef Jirachi, neither can LO special Tapu Koko or LO Alolan Raichu.
 
#12
I think at first glance the new mons from S/M look pretty poor, particularly speed-wise. I was also very annoyed we didn't get any new Megas (Flygon and Milotic in particular). However on reflection monotype have got a huge boost this gen. Ghost got a decent spinner -at last- in Dhelmise, for example. ELE and FRY got some great new members (particularly looking forward to seeing how Alolan Golem fares against flyers). But for this post I wanna mention one of my fave types; Poison.
With the addition of Toxapex and Salazzle, PSN FINALLY gets a decent core (FIR/WTR/GRS) and what an AWESOME core it is - two Regenerators and a great sweeper that can mince the Steel types that cause Poison so much grief. Here's a team I have in mind (haven't sorted stats yet)...

Amoonguss (GRS/PSN)
[Regenerator], Black Sludge
·Synthesis
·Giga Drain
·Clear Smog
·Spore

Toxapex (WTR/PSN)
[Regenerator], Black Sludge
·Recover
·Baneful Bunker
·Toxic Spikes
·Liquidation

Salazzle (FIR/PSN)
[Corrosion], Lum Berry (vs Prankster T.Wave)
·Nasty Plot
·Flamethrower
·Sludge Bomb
·Hidden Power Ground (vs non-balloon Heatran)

Crobat (FLY/PSN)
[Infiltrator], Black Sludge
·Brave Bird
·U-turn
·Roost/Taunt
·Defog

Nidoking (PSN/GRD)
[Sheer Force], Choice Scarf
·Sludge Wave
·Earth Power
·Ice Beam
·Flamethrower

Muk (Alolan Form) (PSN/DRK)
[Poison Touch], Assault Vest
·Knock Off
·Gunk Shot
·Brick Break (vs Bisharp)
·Shadow Sneak

Shame we still don't have a cleric for poison, I was hoping for a poison type Eeveelution (as well as a Steel one), but I think this is a good start. What do you guys think?
Also totally agree that all the Beasts are Uber and should be on the banlist, but if you ban Terrain Extender the Tapu's should be fine.
 
Last edited:
#13
I think at first glance the new mons from S/M look pretty poor, particularly speed-wise. I was also very annoyed we didn't get any new Megas (Flygon and Milotic in particular). However on reflection monotype have got a huge boost this gen. Ghost got a decent spinner -at last- in Dhelmise, for example. ELE and FRY got some great new members (particularly looking forward to seeing how Alolan Golem fares against flyers). But for this post I wanna mention one of my fave types; Poison.
With the addition of Toxapex and Salazzle, PSN FINALLY gets a decent core (FIR/WTR/GRS) and what an AWESOME core it is - two Regenerators and a great sweeper that can mince the Steel types that cause Poison so much grief. Here's a team I have in mind (haven't sorted stats yet)...
Amoonguss (GRS/PSN)
[Regenerator], Black Sludge
·Synthesis
·Giga Drain
·Clear Smog
·Spore
Toxapex (WTR/PSN)
[Regenerator], Black Sludge
·Recover
·Baneful Bunker
·Toxic Spikes
·Liquidation
Salazzle (FIR/PSN)
[Corrosion], Lum Berry (vs Prankster T.Wave)
·Nasty Plot
·Flamethrower
·Sludge Bomb
·Hidden Power Ground (vs non-balloon Heatran)
Crobat (FLY/PSN)
[Infiltrator], Black Sludge
·Brave Bird
·U-turn
·Roost/Taunt
·Defog
Nidoking (PSN/GRD)
[Sheer Force], Choice Scarf
·Sludge Wave
·Earth Power
·Ice Beam
·Flamethrower
Muk (Alolan Form) (PSN/DRK)
[Poison Touch], Assault Vest
·Knock Off
·Gunk Shot
·Brick Break (vs Bisharp)
·Shadow Sneak

Shame we still don't have a cleric for poison, I was hoping for a poison type Eeveelution (as well as a Steel one), but I think this is a good start. What do you guys think?
Toxapex, Salazzle, Nihilego and alolan Muk are all new nice additions for poison type, however the type also took a small hit when Gengar lost its Ability Levitate. Now you are forced to use Crobat or Golbat if you want to have a pokemon with Ground immunity on your team.

Poison will probably still be a fun Anti-Meta type used in tournaments to counter the new very strong Fairy teams like it did in the end of ORAS but at the moment i doubt it will be more than that.
 
#14
Alright, I have made some testing with friends and thus I will share the opinion I have so far about the metagame. It has been a pleasure to start off working on brand new teams and I am pretty sure I am not the only one excited to contribute for this brand new generation.

First of all, Steel teams. With a combination of Aegislash, Skarmory, and Heatran, they are able to cover a large amount of weakness and it still strike back really hard (remember how versatile Aegislash is and that it can also act as a great offensive presence). Furthermore, Steel has got powerful tools in Mega-Metagross and Magearna, further increasing its ability to decimate loads of types in the metagame. It might be too early to ban most mons right away, but I certainly believe Mega-Metagross and Aegislash are a good way to start on metagame balancing. Hopefully we would see those getting banned or suspected soon.

I have also seen how dominant Fighting types are mostly due to Pheromosa and Blaziken. Most of the people above mentioned the former simply due to its amazing speed and damage output, making it a frightening sweeper. I also agree on this position and certainly think Pheromosa should be banned right away for the reasons stated above.

Fairies. Although not really broken, I can see it being potentially good, thanks to the new tools they have received (Primarina, Magearna, the Tapus and so on). I personally don't see any problem with the Tapus here except for Tapu Lele, which has also been discussed above by other people. The support it provides is really strong and it gets even more powerful with Terrain Extender, making them immune to priority moves (especially Bullet Punch).

And finally, Grass. I believe the type will have a harder time adapting to the metagame, especially given Mega-Venusaur is currently unusable. This change will most likely lead Grass teams to go toward offensive-oriented builds, revolving around Tapu Bulu setting Grassy Terrain to support strong attackers like Serperior and Kartana. Furthermore, defensive playstyles are no longer viable, as Grass teams will struggle taking down Mega-Scizor and Fire / Ice threats, making the type more restricted on teambuilding.

In the end, we could say most of these descriptions are only temporary, since we are not really sure about what the metagame will be really like after all the OP stuff is gone. More tests needs to be made before any decision is taken right away to make sure we are doing the right thing for Monotype.
 

DEG

Is 1v1 a matchup and hax based metagame?
is a Smogon Media Contributor
#15
I played around with Dark-types Pokemon, the team's build is so similar to Gen 6. The defensive core of Tyranitar, Mandibuzz and Sableye is still as strong as ever and still is annoying to deal with (Even though the tier is plagued with Fairy-types now.) I haven't played a lot but I guess Greninja is still a bit too much for the meta since it lost nothing but it got new food and still helps as much as it did. As for Hoopa-U, it's also still the same but we gained more checks to it for the time being, before considering it again I'd see how the metagame evolves and what will be the new bans and stuff before saying my final verdict. On another note, Bisharp is still a great Pokemon to use on Dark-type teams even though the nerf of Sucker Punch hindered it a little bit, but its still a great force. I haven't played with Darkrai but looking at its moveset and stuff, it doesn't look as broken as other threats, it has good coverage and whatsoever but I guess it can wait. I'm really loving some of the new stuff Dark-types got, Psychic Fang Mega Sharpedo, if boosted by Strong Jaw, is gonna help so much against Fighting-types especially Terrakion and Keldeo. Alolan Muk has great defensive stats mixed with great typing allowing it to keep in check Fairy-types Pokemon. And the most dankest stuff ever, is Dark-types being immune to Prankster, you know what that means? I no longer have to fear Klefki and Sableye!
 
#16
Hey guys, I thought I'd share some sets and thoughts on some new of the new poison pokemon released. Poison got a few gems with the release of Sun and Moon which make the type a lot more solid and fun to use. RIP Gengar.


Nihilego @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt

I can see choice scarf nihilego for poison becoming standard pretty quickly. The speed stat of this pokemon (Base 103) is awesome and help it outspeed threats to poison like mega charizard y, volcarona etc. With the choice scarf it can outspeed jolly mega pinsirs, +1 volcaronas, scarf victinis, other fast threats etc. Power gem is for fires, flying, bugs and being a good stab move. Sludge Wave is a stronger stab move than power gem and helps it beat what its supposed to beat. Dazzling gleam helps against dragons which are a huge pain for poison as well as fighting/dark. The last move I chose was thunderbolt as flying and water are pretty common types seen in monotype. Beast boost is amazing and if this pokemon does get banned (im hoping it doesn't) this ability will be the main reason why. You can clean games with this set pretty easily if your opponent isn't prepared. The typing of this pokemon is actually amazing and it essentially walls volcarona now while being poison's first flying resist.


Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 212 HP / 132 Atk / 44 Def / 120 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak / Rock Slide / Brick Break

Alolan Muk is Poison's newest and third pokemon with a secondary dark typing. It is by far my favorite out of the three and its amazing bulk is mainly why. The EV spread I chose is mainly to help it tank the special hits I need it to very comfortably as well as living some powerful physical hits and dishing out decent damage.

252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk in Sun: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Muk: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Muk: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Return does a little less than earthquake)
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk: 100-118 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- Miniscule chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (less than 1%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (steam eruption was na)
252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk: 124-148 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk: 244-291 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (probably a 4hko after spa drops)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 212 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Muk in Rain: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Alolan Muk: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


All in all, with the release of these new pokemon, I think poison now has the tools to deal with some past hard matchups such as bug, fire, and flying. Toxapex is absolutely insane, I would understand if it got banned in the future. Nihilego is amazing, not quite sure if it's broken yet but I'm hoping it stays. Alolan Muk isn't broken at all but such an enjoyable tool to have on poison. Salazzle is another fun pokemon, one that I haven't been able to fit onto a good team yet but am looking forward to using. Silvally is ass.
 
Last edited:

Harpp

formerly Alpha-Harpreet
#17
Hello Everyone! I'd like to share sets of some of the new and interesting water pokemon that have been released in gen 7. Water got some really interesting mons that will help it more in its versatility.

1.Toxapex:

Toxapex @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes /Baneful Banker
- Recover
- Haze
It is an amazing defensive pokemon that will be seen on almost every water and poison mono. Its ability regenerator helps it to do its job again and again without getting worn down, it also gets recover for instant recovery which is truly something as it has 50/152/142 defenses which makes it difficult to one shot it. As for moveset scald is to fish for burns while doing some chip damage. Toxic spikes is really easy to set as toxapex is really bulky. Recover is to stall out pokemon with toxic spikes and haze is to stop any set up sweeper. This set in particular will be very common on mono poison teams to check things like volcorona or any other set up pokemon. Toxapex forms regenerator cores on both water and poison with slowbro and amoongus respectively.

2.Primarina:

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Primarina has the highest special attack of all starters sitting at base 126 which helps it to wallbreak easily with a specs set. Hyper voice with liquid voice is just like hydro pump however with hyper voice it can hit through substitute. Moonblast is fairy stab move and hits hard with specs. Energy ball is to hit opposing water/ground types and hp fire is for annoying things like ferrothorn. I see specs primarina becoming standard on water mono as it can brought in safely with a volt switch. The fairy typing helps water against dragon but again dragon is not a problem for water..azumarill! On defensive note, Assault Vest Primarina can be a thing as it has 116 special defense with 80hp which is not shabby at all. However AV slowking with regenerator outclasses it.

3.Golisopod:

Golisopod @ Choice Band
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Leech Life
- Aqua Jet
- Brick Break
Golisopod is a very strong physical pokemon with 125 base attack however it is very slow as it is with many gen 7 pokemon,Hence bulky choice bander is an option. It hits very hard and it has moves like first impression(90 base power move),sucker punch,aqua jet to catch up with its low speed. Bulk up set is an option too as it learns leech life(80 bp) and it has a good bulk with 75/140/90 defenses. I think golisopod will be a common sight on mono water teams because of its bug typing which grants it neutrality to grass type moves.
 

DEG

Is 1v1 a matchup and hax based metagame?
is a Smogon Media Contributor
#18
As cool as the new stuff introduced in the SUMO meta is, I'm truthfully a little devastated if I can be brutally honest. It was revealed that only a limited number of Mega Evolutions will be available, and a lot of the ones taken away became instant staples to make certain types viable going into Gen 6. Here's the list if you have not seen it already: http://hastebin.com/neqanawuxu.makefile I'm gonna touch up on a few types this current nerf affects.

Grass + Poison
Mega Venusaur was a huge pick me up for both of these types going into gem 6, providing Grass with an amazing tank with neutrality to Poison, Fire, Ice, and Bug attacks. It also provided Poison with a reliable answer to Ground teams. Now that it's unavailable, these types are now gonna suffer pretty bad I'd imagine since Venusaur gave them a fighting chance to be viable.

Fire
Both Charizard megastones are on the list as well, and while maybe not quite as impactful to the types viability compared to Grass or Poison, Mega Charizard Y instantly became one of the best Fire Pokémon to tun, setting up Drought for the rest of the team, and being able to fire incredibly powerful Fire STABS and Solar Beam. With that gone Fire had now lost out on its best wallbreaker, as well as a Water neutrality with access to Dragon Dance.

Rock + Fairy
Losing Mega Diancie is a pretty hard hit for both of these, Rock especially. The STABS it provided to both types it was on proved to be incredibly useful for coverage, primarily against Fighting, Fire, and Flying. With that gone, Rock pretty much sucks (especially w/o Mega Agron either), and Fairy, while getting a lot of new mons introduced, got needed out of one of the best sweepers you could get.

Conclusion
These are only a few examples on what this affects, and I seriously hope game freak releases the rest of the megastones again at some point. This nerd as you can tell affects Monotype especially pretty heavily, and completely nerfs a lot of types.
Just saying, it was recently discovered that the mega stones for the Kanto starters are indeed available. You receive them after beating Red in the battle tree. So you can use Mega Venusaur, Mega Blastoise and both Mega Charizard X and Y.


e: why are most things that threaten Dark on the unavailable list LOL
 
#19
The Z-moves seem to also be an interesting addition here. Taking a brief look at what could be notably advantageous, i noticed something interesting: Z-Belly Drum: fully heals the user, then uses Belly Drum
Say, hypothetically, an azumarill uses Normalium Z over sitrus berry to Z-belly drum. That would mean that to kill this azumarill you would need to be able to OHKO it, be slower than it (unlikely) and 2hKO it, or be able to take a fully powered aqua jet (or several, depending on the circumstances), or be able to 2hKO it with priority (which not even banded scizor is capable of). I haven't thought this through yet from every type's viewpoint, but i'm not sure if every type is capable of dealing with such a threat without overcentralizing/ using very unconventional mons, as you can't guarantee having a mon with knock off out every turn. Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Zarif

Paradise in our minds
is a Contributor to Smogon
#20
Time for my usual "Let's look at how Fire fares right now". Fire wasn't as fortunate as the others and hardly got any new Pokemon at all. The few new Fire types are: Incineroar, Marowak-Alola, Oricorio, Salazzle, Silvally-Fire, and Turtonator. Out of these, the only thing that appealed to me was:

Salazzle





Salazzle @ Life Orb
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Nasty Plot

Salazzle instantly caught my eye when the stat distribution leaks came out. Salazzle's main selling point is its 117 Speed, which makes it the first Fire-type outside of Mega Houndoom to outspeed base 108 Pokemon. This may not seem as much at first but it's amazing for Fire teams. Being able to outspeed Latios and Latias without a Choice Scarf was a privilege Fire never got to have. Other than its amazing Speed, Salazzle also has a pretty respectable 111 Special Attack stat. Its unique Poison / Fire typing makes it a fantastic Fairy check. Sadly, its rather poor defensive stats let it down. It can't really make much use of it's ability either as it is mostly a glass cannon.

Movepool wise, Salazzle is pretty underwhelming. Even though it has good STAB moves in Sludge Wave and Fire Blast, that's about it really. Dragon Pulse is a nice option to hit Dragon-types super effectively. Nasty Plot can be used to increase its Special Attack even more. Funnily enough, Salazzle has a pretty interesting Physical movepool with moves like Knock Off and Leech Life.

I'm very excited to use Salazzle in my teams and can see it easily being a staple on most Fire teams. Obviously there's other cool new stuff like Drought Torkoal, Mega Charizard X, Blaziken, Talonflame, and Silvally-Fire. However, those are for another day.
 
#21
After having gone through all the status moves to check what the z- ones do, there doesn't seem to be any others that look particularly broken. There is the slight problem of some moves granting evasion buffs when used, but that should have little consequence. There are a couple interesting ones too, such as memento and parting shot healing the switch-in (although the amount was unspecified), perhaps memento can be used as a pseudo healing wish now? there's also stuff like z-splash giving +3 attack and other useless moves giving +1 to all stats, switcheroo and other similar effects granting a speed up and stuff like string shot giving the option of a speedup without having to lock in, although at the expense of having one less useful move and a worthless item. As far as the damaging z-moves go, it's interesting to note that counter, mirror coat and metal burst can be changed into a 100 BP attack move (wobbufet can attack holy shit) and since the damaging z-moves in general can't be protected against, perhaps we will see an increase in the popularity of substitute?
 
#22
After seeing the two steel Ub. I wonder how they will affect mono steel. The steel/grass is pretty nice to help with water and ground match ups and how the meta handles so many megas gone.
 
#23
Been messing around with this meta and so far there is a lot of busted things. I wanted to share a stall team that Chras helped me with that utilizes a pretty cool defensive core I found.
Mega Slowbro + Toxapex Stall


Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze

Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 24 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Calm Mind

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 244 HP / 216 Def / 48 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Protect
- Rest
- Perish Song

Tapu Fini @ Terrain Extender / Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Defog
- Protect
- Nature's Madness

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Mirror Coat

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rest


This is based around a real cool regen core that I stumbled upon and wanted to share that is real hard to break. Basically Toxapex's great typing and Special Defense allows it to switch into most special attackers while still having good enough Physical Defense to check some physical attackers. Being part poison helps because it cannot be poisoned and can get rid of potential toxic spikes. For The other Physical attackers that Toxapex doesn't want to take a hit from You have Slowbro to check them before mega evolving. One of the biggest issues for regen cores is hazard stacking teams and status. This is where Tapu Fini comes in. Misty Terrain with the Terrain extender item makes it so Slowbro and Toxapex cannot be poisoned, burned, paralysised, or put to sleep for 8 turns, which is huge for Mega Slowbro being that one of the most common ways of beating it is status then pressuring it with other mons. Tapu Fini has overall good defenses and can learn Defog so that makes getting hazards to stay up against this team more difficult. Only downside to this overall great mon is the lack of recovery but Wish Pass from Alomomola helps with that. The rest of the pokemon are pretty standard. This team isn't perfect and is still a work in process and loses to some of the busted Pokemon still allowed but if Mega Slowbro stays in the meta and Pokemon such as Hoopa and some of the new UBs and Tapus get banned this team could flourish in the meta. To make this team work you have to try and avoid Mega-Evolving your Slowbro until late in games where the regen isnt needed.
 
Last edited:
#24
Im seeing a lot of ban happiness going around in the first couple days of this game being out. It seems like people are far too willing to jump back to the more familiar (and bland) oras metagame with thier bans. Lets please let the metagame settle a bit before going crazy with the ban hammer. We have hardly even explored the viable sets for many mons
 

Vid

Love Yourz
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
#25

I'd like to talk about Blaziken and how it seems to be too good in Monotype (from what I have played and seen)
Baton Pass
Blaziken @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
This set is where Blaziken's support capabilities in Baton Pass (chicken pass). This set I've had the most success on Fire because of the many options that can be passed to. One of the better recipients from what I have played was Alolan Marowak. Alolan Marowak is a great recipient because of it's low speed and access to Swords Dance and Thick Club effectively giving it base 160 attack. Quick Pass Blaziken makes certain matchups and on top of that most Monotype teams do not have a phasing move. I find this strategy greatly enhances mediocre Pokemon. On Fighting unfortunately Mega Heracross isn't available, so the set isn't that good.
Swords Dance
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- High Jump Kick / Stone Edge
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
I've had success with this set on Fire and Fighting teams. From the games I have played Swords Dance Blaziken is like Talonflame in ORAS Monotype, being able to sweep some types with little to no effort. Although the set can be walled by certain Pokemon namely Slowbro similarly how Talonflame can be walled by Tyranitar in ORAS. For example Ice and Grass straight up lose to Swords Dance Blaziken (without a boost). Other types such as Steel and Bug have a better chance against Blaziken, but still can easily fall. In Steel's case once Aegislash is KOed, Blaziken can easily sweep. Blaziken almost guarantees a win for Fire and Fighting against Steel. Bug has Araquanid (Water Bubble ability reduces damage of Fire-type attacks by 1/2) which allows it to better take on Fire attacks and Bug can also check Blaziken with Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack. Swords Dance is just as good if not better than it was in XY.

I'm not saying Blaziken should be banned before the ladder is up, but it should be banned within the first week of the ladder being up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.