Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

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twinkay

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Kyosuru Jets said:
EDIT: removed grass usertag LOL

I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Can't copy anything because I'm on mobile but Band Wild Charge has a 53.6% chance to OHKO Muk-Alola ( or at least the OU Assault Vest spread, which is the one I think you used for your calcs), so that has to be taken into account. It counters the special set, though.
Band Tapu Koko is left with an even smaller movepool and has checks of its own, and contrary to what I said before, alolan muk isnt quite a counter to Tapu Koko (thanks to the guys who told me that one)


I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Ninjask isn't really comparable to Tapu Koko as a) Tapu Koko is viable and Ninjask is not and b) there is no type that resists both of Tapu Koko's STABs, unlike Ninjask. I agree that speed alone doesn't make a Pokemon broken but it is something to be taken into account when discussing Tapu Koko.
I only made the Ninjask argument as a statement of the relative unimportance of speed alone, and proceeded to address the other factors of Tapu Koko.


I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Fair enough, but Tapu Koko's movepool covers what it needs to IMO. It's not really Tapu Koko's movepool that's being emphasized here but its unpredictability. Also I would say Landorus-T is only a real threat to Electric, not Fairy.
I would argue that unpredictability stems from the size of it's movepool and the moves in it.



I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Another fair point, but I never said Grass Knot completely wins versus Ground, it just helps. And I disagree that if a team can deal with Electric, it can deal with Tapu Koko. Well, first off, to deal with Electric, you would have to deal with Koko. Second, if you mean Electric types other than Koko, than that is not necessarily true. For example, standard Grass doesn't have to change much to deal with Electric, but after Cradily and Ferrothorn are removed Flyinium Z Brave Bird Tapu Koko can easily clean.
At the grass statement, that is because ferrothorn and cradily are the mons that deal with electric and flying stab, save mega venu. If anything, I would say that is where the pro for Tapu Koko lies; its ability to take out Mega venusaur. However, when stating "Any team that is built to handle electric can handle Tapu Koko", that insinuates using the mons that handle electric, including ferrothorn and cradily. Past that, you are addressing Grass's general weakness to flying STAB, which is by no means remarkably special nor unique to Tapu Koko. All the mon does is prey on this already prevalent weakness, such that Scizor breaks Ice.​
This is going to be a more refined argument as the last one was kind of sloppy (and not enough!)

First off, just because Band Tapu Koko does not have many options does not mean that it is not a viable set that shouldn't be prepared for. Yes, Band Tapu Koko does have checks on its own. However, the problem with Tapu Koko's unpredictability is that teams have to be able to check multiple variants of Tapu Koko in order to deal with it. Of course there is a very limited pool of Pokemon that can actually do this. One example is Lanturn, but I can't think of any others at the top of my head at the moment. Tapu Koko is thus extremely limiting to teambuilding. Although sometimes it is easy to see what set Tapu Koko is, if the opponent plays Tapu Koko right, than you could lose your only Tapu Koko check (as in the case that you send Alolan-Muk into Tapu Koko and get OHKOed, or you send in Venusaur-Mega only to be hit with Brave Bird / Supersonic Skystrike). Some matchups like Dark have to rely on niche picks like Scarf Greninja in order to beat Tapu Koko, which is a huge problem. And it's not just one type, it is almost every single type. As I've stated before, Tapu Koko pressures basically every single type, and even matchups that shouldn't be a problem for the opposing type (think Grass, Dragon, and Ground) have trouble with Tapu Koko. Grass can have trouble with Band, Dragon has trouble with Dazzling Gleam + HP Ice, and Ground can have trouble with Grass Knot + HP Ice (not as notable as the other two but still worth mentioning).

And speed is an important factor. As I've stated before, speed alone isn't the reason to suspect Tapu Koko. However its amazing speed tier and high damage output make it very difficult to handle. Its speed is the main reason why Tapu Koko is so threatening to offensive cores and offense in general. Of course Scarfers are going to be able to outspeed Tapu Koko; that's their job. But is important to note that there are notable Scarfers under 71 speed, and that Tapu Koko still outspeeds. But if you are using a Scarf Pokemon that is a base 70 or less (e.g. Magnezone) than suddenly you're revenge killer is invalidated. And although this isn't that good of an example as Tapu Koko can't do much except run HP Ground, this becomes much more relevant if you are using something like Scarf Pelipper. Although there aren't many viable ones it's better than nothing.

And, although the Grass statement was more of an example, Ferrothorn is not too difficult to beat with HP Fire and Cradily is not hard for Electric or Fairy to remove. Tapu Koko does not just 6-0 teams. The problem with Tapu Koko is that it is amazing at pressuring teams throughout the game and eliminating threats, and simultaneously creating opportunities for its teammates. Every Pokemon takes advantage of a type's weaknesses, that's basically what the game of Monotype is about. However, I am not saying that Tapu Koko is broken because it can beat grass teams with Brave Bird. What I am saying is that because Tapu Koko creates new weaknesses to teams, not just exploiting ones teams have already had, Tapu Koko is a threat. Not many teams are prepared from the get-go to deal with the vast amounts of sets Tapu Koko has. And although it is a toss-up between coverage options Tapu Koko can suit its coverage to fit its team. For example in your first post you mentioned that HP Ice makes you lose to Ferrothorn while HP Fire makes you lose to Landorus-T. However, this is not relevant as Ferrothorn and Landorus-T will never be on the same team and so HP Ice Tapu Koko will have partners who can deal with Tapu Koko and vice versa. Tapu Koko's customizability along with its ability to support its team extremely well makes it more of a weakness creator than a weakness exploiter for most types.

I forgot to mention a couple of points in my previous post, so let me run over them. Tapu Koko is very threatening to offensive cores as I have said before, and it is very pressuring to teams that rely on offensive cores (e.g. Fighting). These teams had the ability to deal with fast Pokemon, but these Pokemon such as Mega-Aerodactyl or Mega-Beedrill are not common Pokemon you'd find most of the time. Tapu Koko, however, is S-ranked on two top-tier types and was in the top 10 usage on every ladder last month. Tapu Koko gives you a completely different standard of fast, powerful wallbreaker. It has extremely powerful STAB Thunderbolts, is not one dimensional, and can pivot into other team members. It has the ability to beat common Electric resists. Tapu Koko condenses a cleaner and wallbreaker into one slot, and can still hold an item, unlike most Megas that do this. This, along with the points I have made in my previous posts, is why I believe Tapu Koko should be suspected.

tl;dr: Tapu Koko is good.
 
You did a good job of presenting your point of view KittenGaming. However, imho, Tapu Koko is not even close to being suspect worthy as Magearna is.

I agree that Tapu Koko is fast, and versatile/difficult to predict, however at the end of the day a Pokemon only has 4 moves at any one time. How about some sample sets to paint a better picture:

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs / Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch


Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- U-turn
- Mirror Move / Roost


Tapu Koko @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Grass]


Unfortunately usage stats aren't really available right now but let's suppose the first two sets (FS1 & ES1) are common for Fairy and Electric respectively and the third set (ES2) is the set I personally use on Electric.

  • FS1 has a hard time getting past common bulky Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Chansey, Gastrodon, Swampert and Lanturn and would have to rely on teammates like Magearna, Azumarill and Tapu Bulu. "Smart" players would scout for Supersonic Strike variants before staying in on Tapu Koko with their Mega Venusaur. You could also consider using Grass Knot or HP Grass for more coverage which would then make you vulnerable to Ferrothorn and Excadrill switch-ins, as dual Electric STAB and Fairy STAB are automatic in the first 3 moveslots. Again, only 4 moves at any one time.
  • ES1 struggles to get past Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Lanturn again, Marowak-Alola, Porygon-2, Torkoal, Garchomp, etc.
  • ES2, my personal set is an intriguing story. I use Taunt to shut down annoying Pokemon like hazard setters and stall water (shoutouts Shadestep). I've toyed with both HP Grass and HP Ice but found being able to take care of Landorus and Gliscor more necessary than a Swampert or Gastrodon. I could Taunt Chansey but would have to switch to avoid being worn down too much by Seismic Toss. I could Taunt Lanturn's and Gastrodon's Toxic but would have to switch to avoid possible Scald burns and Gastrodon's Ground STAB. I could taunt opposing Zapdos from using Roost but risk being worn down by Heat Wave and then being picked off by Dragonite's Extreme Speed, etc, etc.
tl;dr: Yes one may need to play safe and scout for movesets when facing Tapu Koko but while it excels in Speed it's raw offensive power on the SpA side has numerous switch-ins and requires a boost by items like Choice Specs. Physical based sets are arguably even easier to handle due to it's lack of good Physical Electric or Fairy coverage. It's a very solid Pokemon, an auto-include on both its types but not worthy of a suspect, imho.
 
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You did a good job of presenting your point of view KittenGaming. However, imho, Tapu Koko is not even close to being suspect worthy as Magearna is.

I agree that Tapu Koko is fast, and versatile/difficult to predict, however at the end of the day a Pokemon only has 4 moves at any one time. How about some sample sets to paint a better picture:

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs / Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch


Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- U-turn
- Mirror Move / Roost


Tapu Koko @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Grass]


Unfortunately usage stats aren't really available right now but let's suppose the first two sets (FS1 & ES1) are common for Fairy and Electric respectively and the third set (ES2) is the set I personally use on Electric.

  • FS1 has a hard time getting past common bulky Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Chansey, Gastrodon, Swampert and Lanturn and would have to rely on teammates like Magearna, Azumarill and Tapu Bulu. "Smart" players would scout for Supersonic Strike variants before staying in on Tapu Koko with their Mega Venusaur. You could also consider using Grass Knot or HP Grass for more coverage which would then make you vulnerable to Ferrothorn and Excadrill switch-ins, as dual Electric STAB and Fairy STAB are automatic in the first 3 moveslots. Again, only 4 moves at any one time.
  • ES1 struggles to get past Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Lanturn again, Marowak-Alola, Porygon-2, Torkoal, Garchomp, etc.
  • ES2, my personal set is an intriguing story. I use Taunt to shut down annoying Pokemon like hazard setters and stall water (shoutouts Shadestep). I've toyed with both HP Grass and HP Ice but found being able to take care of Landorus and Gliscor more necessary than a Swampert or Gastrodon. I could Taunt Chansey but would have to switch to avoid being worn down too much by Seismic Toss. I could Taunt Lanturn's and Gastrodon's Toxic but would have to switch to avoid possible Scald burns and Gastrodon's Ground STAB. I could taunt opposing Zapdos from using Roost but risk being worn down by Heat Wave and then being picked off by Dragonite's Extreme Speed, etc, etc.
tl;dr: Yes one may need to play safe and scout for movesets when facing Tapu Koko but while it excels in Speed it's raw offensive power on the SpA side has numerous switch-ins and requires a boost by items like Choice Specs. Physical based sets are arguably even easier to handle due to it's lack of good Physical Electric or Fairy coverage. It's a very solid Pokemon, an auto-include on both its types but not worthy of a suspect, imho.
I don't think any of those three sets are "standard" or optimal.

Your sample Fairy set is okay, but Dazzling Gleam isn't mandatory. Koko's Fairy STAB is relatively weak and you can easily replace it with Grass Knot to hit Ground types. Secondly, Electrium Z is also not a worthwhile set; not even worth mentioning. Life Orb is far more broadly viable and offers better sustained offensive presence.

For your sample Electric set, pure physical Koko, let alone Flyium Z, is problematic given how poor Koko's physical coverage is. It also doesn't let Electric capitalize on Koko's Fairy STAB. You'll get a lot more mileage out of Mixed Life Orb sets, and even then you wouldn't really use Brave Bird. It's not broadly viable, it hits Mega-Venusaur and nothing else (besides Alola-Wak, loosely). There are better ways for Electric to manage Mega-Venusaur: Brave Bird Koko is limited and unreliable compared to other options and risks your terrain setter.

Finally, the last Electric sample set has no pivot move, and uses HP Grass over Grass Knot for no reason. The only thing it hits harder than G-knot is Lanturn, but Dazzling Gleam would hit as hard, harder if using Pixie Plate.

I'm not really one way or another on a Tapu Koko suspect, but when discussing a Pokémon referencing niche or sub-optimal sets will get you nowhere.
 
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So how about Mega-Pidgeot and Mega-Steelix then?


Mega-Pidgeot is obviously our lord and savior bird jesus, but if I'm being honest I don't think it's going to end up being relevant this generation. I don't see it really helping with any relevant match ups, since Fighting and Grass are both very uncommon in the metagame. And normal doesn't have the kind of team flexibility to give up a slot that could go to Meloetta or Porygon-Z.

But perhaps I'm simply being unimaginative: it could be nice as a secondary defog option as there is a lot of pressure on Staraptor for that role currently and it's not difficult for Steel or Fairy to wear the bird down. Or perhaps we could see the return of Work Up + Roost Mega-Pidgeot to help break balance builds like Poison and Water.


Mega-Steelix, on the other hand, might have a better shot at relevancy, given that the types it helps manage, i.e. Fairy and Electric, are very relevant in the metagame. It is a Bulky-ground type that is not OHKOd by Band Tapu Bulu (not 2HKOd by scarf Bulu) or scared out by unboosted Azumarill. A bulky offensive set with 3 attacks + Stealth Rock or Roar could be pretty fun for sandless teams, or maybe a bulky curse-resttalk set.

I'm not well versed with Ground myself though, so I'd love to hear the opinions of players more experienced with the type about how Mega-Steelix will play out this gen.

 
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I like the idea of Mega Pidgeot coming into the meta but I feel there just isn't room for it as it stands on balanced normal aside from adding a fast pivot to the mix and a slightly stronger keldeo check. I don't think pidgeot's case is helped with the reduced viability of fighting this generation as it stands. I could possibly seeing it open the door to a more offensively orientated normal build which could prove effective but that remains to be put in perspective. If this were Lopunny or pidgeot got gifted Focus Blast in the gen shift I feel normal could see a change up in the way its built but alas it is not to be.
 

So has anyone really messed around with physical Tapu Koko, specifically Flyium Z Mirror Move Koko? I know it's extremely outclassed by other sets like special LO/Magnet or specs, but I still think it has a nice little niche as a physical attacker on electric and fairy, more so the latter.
Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- U-turn

I feel like physical should run roost as well but there's no room for it on this set unfortunately imo

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 316-372 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola in Electric Terrain: 513-604 (123.9 - 145.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 360-424 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (AV Mag)

These calcs don't show anything extremely important except a few kills it can pick up IF it can get it's boost up, but sadly that's kinda holding the success of this set back. I think paired with something like screens + spikes Klefki on fairy can give physical Tapu Koko a chance at not being extremely useless and MAYBE even somewhat good.

Thoughts? ty for reading btw first legitmate post in the thread :]
 

So has anyone really messed around with physical Tapu Koko, specifically Flyium Z Mirror Move Koko? I know it's extremely outclassed by other sets like special LO/Magnet or specs, but I still think it has a nice little niche as a physical attacker on electric and fairy, more so the latter.
Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- U-turn

I feel like physical should run roost as well but there's no room for it on this set unfortunately imo

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 316-372 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola in Electric Terrain: 513-604 (123.9 - 145.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Electric Terrain: 360-424 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (AV Mag)

These calcs don't show anything extremely important except a few kills it can pick up IF it can get it's boost up, but sadly that's kinda holding the success of this set back. I think paired with something like screens + spikes Klefki on fairy can give physical Tapu Koko a chance at not being extremely useless and MAYBE even somewhat good.

Thoughts? ty for reading btw first legitmate post in the thread :]
While Flyium-Z seems decent on paper, you sacrifice too much effective coverage running both Brave Bird and Mirror Move. It's a somewhat limited and inflexible response to only a sparse few threats (Mega Venusaur).

If you're looking for a more broadly effective response to Mega-Venusaur and other threats on Fairy and Electric, I'd consider Guardian of Alola Tapu Koko before Flyium Z (or even brave bird at all).

Tapu Koko @ Tapunium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk (or 252 SpA) / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- Wild Charge / Thunderbolt
- Roost / U-turn / Dazzling Gleam

Taunt + Natures Madness (and it's Z-move) is able to break down bulkier defensive squads and cripple a broader range of threats than just Mega-Venusaur: including Chansey, Porygon2, Alola-Muk, Zapdos, Ferrothorn, and Lanturn to name a few. Crippling these threats allows teammates like Magearna and Alola Raichu to clean up.

It's a niche set, yes, and the mixed LO / Magnet set on Electric and the specs / LO special set on Fairy are more broadly effective in the meta: but if you're looking for specific tech to beat Mega-Venusaur and other common threats to fairy/electric I'd sooner reccomend Guardian of Alola above Flyium Z on either type.

With all that said, welcome to the forums! I'm happy to see new faces contributing :)
 
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Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
While Flyium-Z seems decent on paper, you sacrifice too much effective coverage running both Brave Bird and Mirror Move. It's a somewhat limited and inflexible response to only a sparse few threats (Mega Venusaur).

If you're looking for a more broadly effective response to Mega-Venusaur and other threats on Fairy and Electric, I'd consider Guardian of Alola Tapu Koko before Flyium Z (or even brave bird at all).

Tapu Koko @ Tapunium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk (or 252 SpA) / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- Wild Charge / Thunderbolt
- Roost / U-turn / Dazzling Gleam

Taunt + Natures Madness (and it's Z-move) is able to break down bulkier defensive squads and cripple a broader range of threats than just Mega-Venusaur: including Chansey, Porygon2, Alola-Muk, Zapdos, Ferrothorn, and Lanturn to name a few. Crippling these threats allows teammates like Magearna and Alola Raichu to clean up.

It's a niche set, yes, and the mixed LO / Magnet set on Electric and the specs / LO special set on Fairy are more broadly effective in the meta: but if you're looking for specific tech to beat Mega-Venusaur and other common threats to fairy/electric I'd sooner reccomend Guardian of Alola above Flyium Z on either type.

With all that said, welcome to the forums! I'm happy to see new faces contributing :)
I think I would consider Tapunium Z too niche. Z Nature's Madness really is not necessary at all, it does not contribute anything that is not already being covered by Taunt and Nature's Madness. The only difference being made is between 50% and 75% damage; I would call into question even using Nature's Madness, as it hinders Tapu Kokos overall offensive presence, a trait that makes Koko so good in this meta. I am not sure if I could recommend Flyinium-Z Mirror Move either, but Z-Nature's Madness is a mile-long jog in the wrong direction for using this mon. It is so suboptimal compared to its other sets that it really serves no purpose; using regular nature's madness works to the same effect while allowing the mon to have an item to support itself, but even using Nature's Madness on Koko is a waste of a moveslot. @ Flyinium Z, I would argue that it doesn't quite do it's job well enough to use. Mega Venu does around 50% with a Giga Drain, and a kill with a +2 Brave Bird is shaky at best. I would argue that you're better off with something along the lines of Life Orb or even CB if you are persistent on using Tapu Koko as a Mega Venu check (CB Koko is really good on Electric, however, due to the type's lack of answers FOR megavenu), freeing up a moveslot and giving you more utility. On fairy, though, I would say leave that job to Togekiss (/Klefki if it is running sludge, but even if it was, Koko would even less of an option).
 


I wanted to add my theorymonned (though slightly tested) opinion on Steelix-Mega in the current meta!
In my experience, Fairy vs. Ground is a relatively even matchup - usually with 2-3 key threats on both sides, however Steelix-M has the power to at least stop 1 if not both of the main threats vs. Ground.


252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 126-148 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 79-94 (22.3 - 26.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 205-243 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 129-153 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 278-330 (98.5 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 278-330 (80.8 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery


+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 270-318 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 68-84 (19.2 - 23.7%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO


As you can see - not only does it have the bulk to deal with two main threats to ground, but it has the power even when uninvested. To top it all off, Steelix's Steel/Ground coverage is perfect to hit the entirety of fairy.

It's not dead weight vs. other things either:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 320-377 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 320-380 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2
252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 216-254 (61 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 212-250 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 282-332 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sharpedo-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 150-178 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 136-161 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


With access to a myriad of different support options in Roar, Dragon Tail, Toxic, Taunt, Rest/Talk, Stealth Rock or added coverage furthers Steelix's place in our meta. Paired with mons like Diggersby for priority (or spikes if you're real) when you get unsatisfactory rolls, or Hippowdon/Gastro for a crisp defensive core with the added benefit of activating Sand Force, it's obvious Steelix has the potential to put in work.

edit: refined the post a bit & bolded some more important calcs
 
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Hello everyone my name is The Wammer, and I'm here to talk about a certain Grass type Pokemon that has some interesting possibilities. Feel free to comment opinions and the like. Without further ado, let's get into it.

Whimsicott-
This thing has some brutal implementation when given the right set up. It dents all offensively typed teams such as fighting and flying. Behold the Wammer signature set!
Sweeper Crippler Whimsicott
Whimsicott @ Full Incense
Prankster
Bold nature | 252 EV's in hp, 200 in spa, 44 in def, and 8 in spe
-Trickeroo
-Memento
-Encore/Taunt
-Moonblast/Energy Ball

You may be wondering what this seemingly lackluster set does. It all revolves around the beauty of full incense. Besides getting you a Snorlax while breeding, it also lowers your priority but only in your bracket of priority. So a move of 0 priority would always happen last in the 0 bracket, and +1 priority move will move last in that bracket, but still out speed the 0 bracket. This has rediculous potential when coupled with prankster, allowing almost any Pokemon to outspend the opponent as well getting rid of the item too. Memento is another nice crippling move when your done setting up, and can ruin sweeper pushes, often forcing switch ins, which plays nicely to Ferrothorns strengths. The third moves lot is often the free slot; the available movepool could run leech seed, toxic, cotton gaurd, tailwind, or more, but the optimal choice would be encore or taunt. The first stops set up sweepers, and the second shuts down walls. The final slot goes to a special attack, either Moonblast or Energy Ball for an attack.

Pros:
• The ability to let anything outspeed a Pokemon is powerful. The possibility of Ferrothorn or Mega-Venusaur sweeping is brutal to think about. Furthermore, spore users love this free set up an awful lot.
• Memento can force momentum changes.
• Great movepool
• Like all grass types: can't be spored or leech seeded.
• Lol prankster is dumb.

Cons:
• Medocre stats
• Frail to a painful degree
• Sees poison. Screams internally. (Often, try to bait and punish by switching into Ferrothorn and laughing at their puny poison)
• Somewhat predictable
• Innafective to walls to a degree

Whelp, that concludes my little post. Uhh IDK how to end so bye! Also comment or don't I don't care.
 
Since I don't see it here, the next Mega-Stones to be released are those for the Hoenn Starters, Swampertite, Sceptilite, and Blazikenite.



So while Mega-Blaziken will be quickbanned and one can safely disregard Mega-Sceptile due to how essential Mega-Venusaur is to grass, Mega-Swampert could be a really interesting addition to the metagame.

Swift Swim teams have been somewhat forced to run Seismitoad as their Electric Immunity and Stealth Rock setter, and Mega-Swampert is a pretty attractive alternative with more offensive presence and much better bulk. While Seismitoed would still have the benefit of letting you use Mega-Sharpedo I'm sure Mega-Swampert will make a splash on offensive Water teams.

What do you guys think? What kind of impact will Mega-Swampert and Mega-Sceptile have on the metagame?
 
Since I don't see it here, the next Mega-Stones to be released are those for the Hoenn Starters, Swampertite, Sceptilite, and Blazikenite.



So while Mega-Blaziken will be quickbanned and one can safely disregard Mega-Sceptile due to how essential Mega-Venusaur is to grass, Mega-Swampert could be a really interesting addition to the metagame.

Swift Swim teams have been somewhat forced to run Seismitoad as their Electric Immunity and Stealth Rock setter, and Mega-Swampert is a pretty attractive alternative with more offensive presence and much better bulk. While Seismitoed would still have the benefit of letting you use Mega-Sharpedo I'm sure Mega-Swampert will make a splash on offensive Water teams.

What do you guys think? What kind of impact will Mega-Swampert and Mega-Sceptile have on the metagame?
One of the interesting uses of Mega-Swampert in late ORAS was having it as a wall with like rest and rocks on semi-stall water teams. Especially Kaiser’s version of semi-stall water was a fun team. Fat water teams are generally much weaker right now due to the risen usage of electric and poison with Mega-Venusaur but it will be fun to see how semi-stall water will fair now and how Mega-Swampert will affect Mega-Slowbro’s usage on water.
In my opinion SS water is not that great at the moment due to its match ups against top types but Mega-Swampert could switch things up.

Mega-Sceptile will be a niche that will have a core challenge at some point but other than that i feel like its in the exactly same situation as Mega-Beedrill. Theres not a single reason to ever use it over Mega-Venusaur. I would rather use Offensive Mega-Venusaur on HO grass than Mega-Sceptile. Bulu+M-Scept could be “fun” though.

Mega-Blaziken will be gone faster than Zarif’s chances of going undefeated in MPL III as soon as the council announces the quick ban.
 
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One of the interesting uses of Mega-Swampert in late ORAS was having it as a wall with like rest and rocks on semi-stall water teams. Especially Kaiser’s version of semi-stall water was a huge powerhouse team. Fat water teams are generally much weaker right now due to the risen usage of electric and poison with Mega-Venusaur but it will be fun to see how semi-stall water will fair now and how Mega-Swampert will affect Mega-Slowbro’s usage on water.
In my opinion SS water is not that great at the moment due to its match ups against top types but Mega-Swampert could switch things up.

Mega-Sceptile will be a niche that will have a core challenge at some point but other than that i feel like its in the exactly same situation as Mega-Beedrill. Theres not a single reason to ever use it over Mega-Venusaur. I would rather use Offensive Mega-Venusaur on HO grass than Mega-Sceptile. Bulu+M-Scept could be “fun” though.

Mega-Blaziken will be gone faster than Zarif’s chances of going undefeated in MPL III as soon as the council announces the quick ban.

Mega venu is no doubt the preferred mega on poison and grass but with the introduction of mega sceptile into the meta i could see some physical variants in use to check fire. If kartana ever gets unbanned I could see the possibility of an offensive grass core, with mega scept having access to both eq and rock slide it could be in a similar place as koko and be a mixed threat. kartana+scept+ one of the numerous special options grass has (ludi, serp, kind of not really cradily) might be interesting especially if you add in some of the bulk that grass has always relied on like cradily and ferro.

Of course this is all speculation and probably won't happen but i doubt any of us could have forseen the current meta months ago and im looking forward to see what sets people can come up with that are actually viable enough to change the meta :D.
 
Mega venu is no doubt the preferred mega on poison and grass but with the introduction of mega sceptile into the meta i could see some physical variants in use to check fire. If kartana ever gets unbanned I could see the possibility of an offensive grass core, with mega scept having access to both eq and rock slide it could be in a similar place as koko and be a mixed threat. kartana+scept+ one of the numerous special options grass has (ludi, serp, kind of not really cradily) might be interesting especially if you add in some of the bulk that grass has always relied on like cradily and ferro.

Of course this is all speculation and probably won't happen but i doubt any of us could have forseen the current meta months ago and im looking forward to see what sets people can come up with that are actually viable enough to change the meta :D.
The issue with Mega-Sceptile isn't that it's a bad pokemon: if you look for reasons to use it, you can find some.

Sceptile-M's got amazing speed, solid typing, and good coverage, and can make a splash in the Dragon and Fire match ups. But it has the enormous opportunity cost of running Mega-Venusaur, arguably the most quintessential pokemon on Grass that holds the entire defensive core together.

Mega-Sceptile's niche appeal in a handful of match ups isn't enough to justify using it over Mega-Venusaur. It isn't strong enough to offensively check all the threats Mega-Venusaur checks defensively; your team would be worse off 90% of the time by using it. Even on a hypothetical HO Grass Team you'd prefer Mega-Venusaur for the defensive utility its typing and ability provide alone, even if you use an offensive spread.

Mega-Sceptile is cool, but I agree with Azalea: the opportunity cost is too damn high!
 
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Since I don't see it here, the next Mega-Stones to be released are those for the Hoenn Starters, Swampertite, Sceptilite, and Blazikenite.



So while Mega-Blaziken will be quickbanned and one can safely disregard Mega-Sceptile due to how essential Mega-Venusaur is to grass, Mega-Swampert could be a really interesting addition to the metagame.

Swift Swim teams have been somewhat forced to run Seismitoad as their Electric Immunity and Stealth Rock setter, and Mega-Swampert is a pretty attractive alternative with more offensive presence and much better bulk. While Seismitoed would still have the benefit of letting you use Mega-Sharpedo I'm sure Mega-Swampert will make a splash on offensive Water teams.

What do you guys think? What kind of impact will Mega-Swampert and Mega-Sceptile have on the metagame?
I'm extremely excited for M-Swamp because I love rain and it was my favorite playstle at the end of ORAS, and M-Swampert is just one of my favorite megas overall. I'm personally tired of using Toad as an electric immunity and SS abuser, so swamp is a sight for sore eyes imo.

I even have the set I already plan to use too lmao. Mainly as a better electric immunity and a better answer to Bulu, which runs through a large amount of water teams. Now maybe I won't have to rn poison jab Sharpedo to not sacked 2-3 mons just to kill Bulu (ಥ ͜ʖಥ)

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 228 Atk / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Waterfall
- Sludge Wave
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

28 EVs are so I OHKO 0 HP Bulu right away, and OHKO 160 HP Bulu after rocks. Always outspeeds Adamant bulu out of rain and any Bulu under rain.

28 SpA Swampert-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

28 SpA Swampert-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 284-336 (88.4 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
MEDICHAMITE



So if people haven't heard, Medichamnite has been released (so has Audinite but more interest in Medichamite tbh). I'm curious as to how it'll impact the viability of fighting as a type. Fighting is arguably one of, if not the worst type right now, so this is a big sigh of relief for it imo.


Edit:
17629999_988924227910154_41942377497730920_n.jpg
 
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This is just my personal opinion:

Mega Medicham breaks Psychic. There's just no two ways about it. Psychic only has one bad matchup right now and it's Poison. Mega Medicham destroys Poison. Psychic does have a couple skill matchups in Steel and Fairy, but Steel gets broken as well and Fairy will struggle with it as well. I'm looking forward to seeing it not in Monotype because it's way too powerful and Psychic will honestly be unbeatable with it. I'd been using a different breaker because standard Psychic teams actually struggled with Normal after the Hoopa-U ban, but with Mega Medicham, Normal has no chance whatsoever. Because of coverage options, Mega Medicham actually has only like two reliable switch-ins before scouting.

As a result, Psychic is inarguably the best type in the metagame with good matchups against everything but Dark and Ghost (s/o Mega Sableye).

Regardless of how it does on Fighting, I don't think it will stay in Monotype for very long because of its other typing. The more interesting topic I think would be how the other types adapt to this monster. For example, balance Flying just loses to Mega Medicham, so I think Flying will be much more offensive while Mega Medicham is around. I expect Mega Medicham to centralize the metagame around it. I'll give it a fair chance, but I will be very surprised if I don't find it absolutely broken beyond belief.
 
The more interesting topic I think would be how the other types adapt to this monster. For example, balance Flying just loses to Mega Medicham, so I think Flying will be much more offensive while Mega Medicham is around. I expect Mega Medicham to centralize the metagame around it. I'll give it a fair chance, but I will be very surprised if I don't find it absolutely broken beyond belief.
Some quick thoughts on what we might see with Mega-Medicham around.
  • Gengar > Nihilego on Poison, so you can at least do doubles between Alola Muk and get some kind of momentum on psychic.
  • Doublade on Steel
  • Mimikyu on Fairy, potentially.
  • Mega-Slowbro > other megas on Balance Water
  • More speed control on balance Normal (scarf diggersby, Mega-Pidgeot, etc)
It's something every type will have to prepare for, if that's even possible.

Edit: Wanka no yeah, I definitely think Mega-cham will be broken af if that wasn't clear. I was just musing on what kinds of adaptations, however unhealthy or unreliable, might develop from it entering the meta.
 
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Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
Some quick thoughts on what we might see with Mega-Medicham around.
  • Gengar > Nihilego on Poison, so you can at least do doubles between Alola Muk and get some kind of momentum on psychic.
  • Doublade on Steel
  • Mimikyu on Fairy, potentially.
  • Mega-Slowbro > other megas on Balance Water
  • More speed control on balance Normal (scarf diggersby, Mega-Pidgeot, etc)
It's something every type will have to prepare for, if that's even possible.
- doubling between mons and praying ur opponent doesn't catch you isn't a healthy solution to handling an insane wallbreaker like medi.

- Doublade is a borderline detriment to steel teams this gen. There's a lot u miss out on if u watse a slot on it. Encouraging the use of detriments to solve a problem is also not ideal.

- Mimikyu is ok i guess for Fairy but I'd still be pissed I'd be missing out on something else whether it be clefable, klefki, mag, or even something like togekiss. Even then its kinda not rlly a check if disguise gets broken. Only time u can play the doubling game is when u have a steel type in on medi.

- mega bro gets a pass even tho I personally think Balance Water is ass along with mega bro.

- all scarf diggersby is going to do is prolong the inevitable for normal teams. Same with pidgept. Neither of them stop Medicham from getting multiple kills against normal teams. Sacking mons to bring offensive checks in is also not a solution to the problem.

Dw I understand that ur not saying these are solutions but those are just my thoughts on the matter. Can't really generalize too much because u never know what the almighty mono community might come up with to handle this fucked mon, but I'm very confident it will indeed be fucked.
 
Sorry if I act like a complete noob, but why would Psychic have a bad matchup against POISON, of all things?
It does sound unintuitive, so no worries! The current Psychic team builds can't handle Alolan Muk. Alolan Muk beats pretty much every specially offensive Pokemon thanks to its great bulk and can Pursuit trap them or Knock Off. Pretty much the only physically offensive Pokemon right now is Victini, which Toxapex can switch into if it's not Choice Band. Bolt Strike doesn't do enough damage to Alolan Muk, but V-create doesn't do enough to Toxapex. That's the problem. Toxapex + Mega Venusaur + Alolan Muk is just almost impossible to break. Mega Medicham changes that completely.
 
MEDICHAMITE



So if people haven't heard, Medichamnite has been released (so has Audinite but more interest in Medichamite tbh). I'm curious as to how it'll impact the viability of fighting as a type. Fighting is arguably one of, if not the worst type right now, so this is a big sigh of relief for it imo.


Edit:
Yo, Fighting is finally gr8 again :D

Seriously though, with Mega Cham out, Fighting can hold its own in the Flying and Poison matchups much more easily. Don't ban Marshadow please, I need that for Fighting to be broken.
 
Mega-Medicham won't save Fighting
So I've spent a lot of time the last couple of days vigorously testing Fighting to see if Mega-Medicham might make the type relevant in the metagame. Long story short: it won't.

Sorry if that's a bummer, but Fighting's problems won't be solved with a broken Wallbreaker.

What I realized pretty quickly is that while yes, Mega-Medicham busts up defensive cores and terrorizes balanced builds such as Water, Flying, and Poison, it can't help Fighting with what I've considered to be it's biggest flaw since the start of this gen: the poor, POOR matchup against offense.

Fighting is an Offensive type that essentially loses to every other flavor of offense in the meta. Whether it's Swift Swim Water, Standard Electric, Standard Bug, HO Psychic, Sand Ground, Offensive Flying, Standard Fairy or even a well built HO Steel, Fighting struggles immensely to hold it's own ground. This is largely due to the type's inadequate speed control and flimsy defensive backbone.

---

Fighting-types are not necessarily slow, but for an offensive type they aren't fast enough to keep up with the meta: the fastest unboosted pokemon, Hawlucha, merely reaches 118 speed. Yes, you have Scarves like Terrakion, some of the fastest in the game. But a Choice Scarf is an inherently inflexible response: especially true if (A) your scarf can't pivot or (B) the opposing team has a strong defensive backbone that can wall your scarf or (C) the threat is so dangerous you cannot afford to play 50/50s. If you're only response to a threat is a choice scarf, then that threat is going to consistently steal momentum from you every time its in, and this is a situation Fighting teams find themselves in constantly.

As a result, Fighting struggles with almost every speedy attacker in the tier, and threats such as Tapu Koko, Greninja, and Crobat are able to consistently force out and generate momentum off of Fighting to bring in offensive and defensive threats: Fighting cannot put out the offensive pressure necessary to control the flow of battle.

---

This wouldn't be such a problem if Fighting had a defensive backbone to fallback on to deal with sweepers and other offensive threats: but Fighting often has nowhere to go when forced on the defensive.

Very few pokemon on Fighting can take a hit from Kingdra in the Rain, or Raichu in E-terrain, or Excadrill in sand. And nothing switches in. The type lacks any sturdy resists, or even neutralities, to several common offensive types such as Water, Electric, or Psychic. Additionally, there are few, if any, checks to the various boosting threats this gen such as Double Dance Landorus-T, Z-Move Mew, Shift Gear Magearna, Z-Rain Dance Manaphy, and many more.

---

Without being able to generate the offensive pressure necessary to manage these threats or summon the defensive clout necessary to check them, it's so easy for Fighting to be completely broomed: and Mega-Medicham does not help with this.

Mega-Medicham is an exceptional wallbreaker capable of 2HKOing everything in the tier aside from Doublade, Mega-Sableye, and Mega-Slowbro (if mega'd). But Cham, like most common Fighting-types, is slow and frail and is easily forced out by common threats. It has priority, and Fake Out can help threaten frail threats like Alola-Raichu, but this has it's limits. More to the point, Mega-Medicham suffers from a lot of the flaws that Fighting already struggles with as a type.

---

So no, I don't think it'll make Fighting relevant. It may elevate it from bottom-tier to low-tier alongside types such as Dragon, Grass, and Dark, but no higher.

That's not to say I think Mega-Medicham is bad or even balanced, it's still an S-rank on Fighting and IMO it's going to break the meta on Psychic, but unfortunately the flaws with Fighting this gen can't be solved with a broken wallbreaker.
 
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