Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

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Adding on to what Tyke said about the newly announced Megas, I can definitely see them making a huge impact on the metagame. Here are some of the sets that I think these Megas can pull off most effectively in the metagame right now:




Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Hyper Voice
- Will-O-Wisp / Calm Mind
- Focus Blast


This set does wonders for Psychic teams. Psyshock and Hyper Voice are overall solid STAB moves to have, with Psyshock letting it nail Chansey and Mantine. Will-O-Wisp is simply awesome for crippling Alolan Muk when it tries to switch in, while also doing great against Bisharp if it tries to Sucker Punch. Calm Mind does great at breaking through some problematic types like Dark once Alolan Muk is gone and Ghost's defensive backbone of Mega Sableye+Jellicent+Gourgeist-Super. It also has some solid potential of breaking through Water, Electric, and even Normal. It also offers a very handy offensive presence for Fairy against troublesome Poison teams, as well as Grass's defensive core. Here are a few nice calcs:
Vs Dark:
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 153-181 (37 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 480-568 (119.1 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs Ghost:
252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 399-469 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 313-370 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vs Normal's Eviolite Core:
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 310-366 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 324-382 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vs Water:
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 343-405 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 235-277 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 334-394 (89.7 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 128 HP / 128 Def Lanturn: 300-354 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Electric:
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 298-352 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 268-316 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vs Poison:

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 252-296 (82.8 - 97.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vs Grass:

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 358-422 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 322-380 (85.6 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


And as an added bonus, some calcs of its amazing special bulk after +1:

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 66-78 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- 86.4% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega in Electric Terrain: 109-130 (39.3 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 134-162 (48.3 - 58.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 138-163 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega in Sun: 160-190 (57.7 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




Gallade-Mega @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Knock Off / Ice Punch
- Swords Dance

This set offers a potent physical sweeper/wallbreaker for Psychic teams.Mega Gallade can pull off a Swords Dance rather well, having some great natural special bulk and being able to break through Poison, which Psychic has a rather difficult time doing, as well as being able to break through more offensive Dark builds. Either Close Combat or Drain Punch could work depending on whether you value power or sustain more. Knock Off is pretty sweet for hitting Ghosts like Jellicent and Alolan Marowak, as well as Psychic teams. However, Ice Punch is also a solid option for dealing with Landorus, Gliscor, and Garchomp. This set also does amazingly well for Fighting, being able to break Poison's defensive core with ease. Here are some nice calcs:
Vs Dark:
252 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 165-195 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 366-432 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vs Poison:
+2 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 366-432 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 336-396 (110.5 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 402-474 (110.4 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs Ghost:
252 Atk Gallade-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 340-400 (84.3 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Gallade-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 316-374 (84.4 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Gallade-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 234-276 (85.7 - 101%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Drain Punch

As Tyke said, Mega Lopunny is shaping up to be a staple on Normal teams yet again. Fake Out will definitely still be utilized even with the immediate Speed Megas get now. High Jump Kick is simply incredible STAB to have, being able to OHKO Mega Sableye. For the coverage move, Ice Punch is fantastic for dealing with Pokemon like Landorus, Garchomp, and Gliscor. However, I can definitely see Thunder Punch being much more prevalent due to Pelipper and Mantine's newfound relevance this gen. Drain Punch is yet another alternative in order to have a more sustained presence. Here are a few nice calcs:

-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 340-404 (90.9 - 108%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 332-392 (109.2 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

KOs when paired alongside Fake Out:
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 211-250 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 202-238 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Seismitoad: 279-328 (75.2 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 274-324 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




 
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Abomasite, Tyranitarite, and Manectite have been released, and apparently Gamefreak is just handing out mega stones now I guess.

These megas won't be anywhere as meta-changing as the upcoming release of Gardevoirite, Galladite, and Lopunnite, unfortunately. Mega Abomasnow, Tyranitar, and Manectric are somewhat lackluster and might not even see relevant usage on their respective types.

Mega Abomasnow is a slow, fat mixed attacker and semi-decent Swords Dance sweeper. I don't have to explain why it won't be used on Grass with the existence and importance of Mega Venusaur, but even on Ice I think the President Mega will struggle to justify taking a teamslot. The previous niches it occupied breaking Water isn't really relevant anymore, given the type's drop to mid-low tier, and I don't see builds having room for Mega Aboma now that they have to accomodate Alola Ninetales.

Mega Tyranitar is a fat physical attacker with massive mixed bulk, but like Aboma I'm not sure it'll see much use. Balanced Dark teams necessitate the use of Mega Sableye, and Mega Houndoom and Mega Sharpedo both seem like better options for Offensive Dark teams IMO. And Tyranitar really appreciates being able to hold an item such as Leftovers or Chople/Babiri Berry. Idek about Rock, tbh, It could be alright, but I'd hate to give up Assault Vest. While Mega Tyranitar offers an interesting blend of offensive and defensive presence, and it's DD set could be a lot of fun, I don't see Mega Tyranitar making much of a splash. I might be wrong though.

Mega Manectric is a strong special attacker with handy coverage and a blazing speed tier. It'd be great on electric this gen if not for the introduction of Tapu Koko, another strong special attacker with handy coverage and a blazing speed tier. Koko hits harder than Mega Mane with a Life Orb, offers additional utility in Taunt, has the superior pivoting move in U-turn, and even offers handy secondary typing for Fighting-, Bug-, Dark-type resists and a Dragon Immunity. There's just very little that Mega Mane can offer to justify it's use on Electric this gen, a type extremely tight on teamslots. Maybe Intimidate and Fire coverage will be enough, but I don't see myself running Mane over Magnezone / Xurkitree any time soon.

-

So I guess for 3 relevant mega evolutions, we also get 3 irrelevant mega evolutions.
 
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Marshadow is coming, and will be distributed (in Japan) on July 15 with the release of the movie, "Pokemon I Choose You", and it is going to be a huge gamechanger for the meta.

Since Marshadow is a pokemon I've been waiting to drop since the SM meta began, I thought I'd share some thoughts.



There's no doubt Marshadow is going to be meta-defining: but what exactly makes it so great?
BST: 600 | 90 HP / 125 Atk / 80 Def / 90 SpA / 90 SpD / 125 Spe
Typing: Fighting / Ghost
Ability: Technician
Movepool: Spectral Thief, Shadow Sneak, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike, Close Combat, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Rock Tomb, Bulk Up, Poison Jab

*Spectral Thief: 90 BP, Ghost-Type, Steals Stat boosts before dealing damage
*Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike: 195 BP, Ghost-Type, Z-Move off of Spectral Thief
Marshadow is very strong, and not just because of his 125 Attack Stat. Marshadow's greatest asset is his Ghost / Fighting typing, which offers perfect STAB coverage that hits everything in the game neutrally. Couple this with 125 Atk, strong STABs in Close Combat and Spectral Thief, and a boosting item like Choice Band or Life Orb, and Marshadow is difficult to wall.

Marshadow's offensive potential extends beyond raw, unresisted STABs: he has strong priority with Technician-boosted Shadow Sneak to let him clean weakened teams or check frail offensive threats. He has various flavors of useful coverage like Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Poison Jab and Rock Tomb to hit what its STABs can't KO (Garchomp, Tapu Bulu, Gyarados, etc). He can even boost with Bulk Up.

However, the most unique offensive utility Marshadow offers is his signature move, Spectral Thief, which steals stat boosts before dealing damage, which allows Marshadow to act as a set up deterrent against boosting threats to the team's defensive core (Double Dance Lando-T, DD Salamence, SD Z-move Garchomp). Also impressive is the Z-move that goes off Spectral Thief, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike, an absurdly powerful 195 BP Ghost-type attack.
STABs
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 202-238 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 211-249 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Coverage
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 380-448 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 437-515 (122 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 395-468 (140 - 165.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Shadow Sneak
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 432-510 (166.7 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 268-320 (88.4 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 299-354 (99.3 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 187-222 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Marshadow is very fast, and outspeeds the majority of the unboosted metagame with the exception of Tapu Koko, Mega Aerodactyl, and Deoxys-Speed (and soon Mega Lopunny). With Strong Priority, Marshadow offers additional speed control by checking frail offensive threats much like Breloom. With a Choice Scarf, Marshadow is an excellent revenge killer that outspeeds the entire Scarf Meta and is even able to check boosted threats such as Sand Rush Excadrill, +2 Landorus-Therian, SS Kingdra.

Finally, Marshadow is not frail, and sports very respectable bulk with 90/80/90 defenses and a decent defensive typing.

-

So how will Marshadow fit into Monotype?
Obviously both Ghost and Fighting will benefit immensely from the introduction of a strong, fast, and versatile attacker that addresses difficult matchups for each type (Ghost vs Dark, Fighting vs Psychic / Ghost). Marshadow will definitely be S-rank on both types.

But will Marshadow be too strong for the meta to handle? While it's not the first pokemon in monotype to lack easy switchins (Lando-I), it's hard to ignore just how lopsided it can make some matchups. Psychic teams will struggle stupidly to check Marshadow with it's strong Shadow Sneak (Scarf Meloetta?) and Ghost Mirror matches will be pretty unpleasant (although Mega Sableye, Mimikyu, and Doublade all check Marshadow).

That said, it's really difficult to gauge how unbalanced Marshadow may end up given the types it'll be used on. Ghost and Fighting are both bottom-end types in the metagame atm, and while that won't save Marshadow from being banned if it's broken, the needs of these teams may put limitations on Marshadow's use that keep it from being unhealthy in the metagame.

But who knows? Whether it ends up quickbanned, suspected, or just really really good, Marshadow is going to crash into the meta like a meteor and I can't wait.

What do you guys think?
 
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Marshadow is coming, and will be distributed (in Japan) on July 15 with the release of the movie, "Pokemon I Choose You". This is going to be a huge gamechanger for the meta, so much so that I feel it may even catch a ban.

Since this is a pokemon I've been waiting to drop since the SM meta began, I thought I'd share some thoughts.



There's no doubt Marshadow is going to be meta-defining: but what exactly makes it so great?
BST: 600 | 90 HP / 125 Atk / 80 Def / 90 SpA / 90 SpD / 125 Spe
Typing: Fighting / Ghost
Ability: Technician
Movepool: Spectral Thief, Shadow Sneak, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike, Close Combat, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Rock Tomb, Bulk Up, Poison Jab

*Spectral Thief: 90 BP, Ghost-Type, Steals Stat boosts before dealing damage
*Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike: 195 BP, Ghost-Type, Z-Move off of Spectral Thief
Marshadow is very strong, and not just because of his 125 Attack Stat. Marshadow's greatest asset is his Ghost / Fighting typing, which offers perfect STAB coverage that hits everything in the game neutrally. Couple this with 125 Atk, strong STABs in Close Combat and Spectral Thief, and a boosting item like Choice Band or Life Orb, and Marshadow is difficult to wall.

Marshadow's offensive potential extends beyond raw, unresisted STABs: he has strong priority with Technician-boosted Shadow Sneak to let him clean weakened teams or check frail offensive threats. He has various flavors of useful coverage like Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Poison Jab and Rock Tomb to hit what its STABs can't KO (Garchomp, Tapu Bulu, Gyarados, etc). He can even boost with Bulk Up.

However, the most unique offensive utility Marshadow offers is his signature move, Spectral Thief, which steals stat boosts before dealing damage, which allows Marshadow to act as a set up deterrent against boosting threats to the team's defensive core (Double Dance Lando-T, DD Salamence, SD Z-move Garchomp). Even more impressive is the Z-move that goes off Spectral Thief, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike, an absurdly powerful 195 BP Ghost-type attack and the best Z-move in the game.
STAB
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 202-238 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 211-249 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Coverage
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 380-448 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 437-515 (122 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 395-468 (140 - 165.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Shadow Sneak
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 432-510 (166.7 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 268-320 (88.4 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 299-354 (99.3 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 187-222 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Z-Move
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 247-292 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 262-310 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 297-351 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 348-411 (114.4 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Marshadow is very fast, and outspeeds the majority of the unboosted metagame with the exception of Tapu Koko, Mega Aerodactyl, and Deoxys-Speed (and soon Mega Lopunny). With Strong Priority, Marshadow offers additional speed control by checking frail offensive threats much like Breloom. With a Choice Scarf, Marshadow is an excellent revenge killer that outspeeds the entire Scarf Meta and is even able to check boosted threats such as Sand Rush Excadrill, +2 Landorus-Therian, SS Kingdra.

Finally, Marshadow is not frail, and sports very respectable bulk with 90/80/90 defenses and a decent defensive typing.

-

So how will this play out in Monotype?
Obviously both Ghost and Fighting will benefit immensely from the introduction of a strong, fast, and versatile attacker that addresses difficult matchups for each type (Ghost vs Dark, Fighting vs Psychic / Ghost). Marshadow will definitely be S-rank on both types.

But will Marshadow be too strong for the meta to handle? While it's not the first pokemon in monotype to lack easy switchins (Lando-I), it's hard to ignore just how lopsided it can make some matchups. Psychic teams will struggle stupidly to check Marshadow with it's strong Shadow Sneak (Scarf Meloetta?) and Ghost Mirror matches will be pretty unpleasant (although Mega Sableye, Mimikyu, and Doublade all check Marshadow).

That said, it's really difficult to gauge how unbalanced Marshadow may end up given the types it'll be used on. Ghost and Fighting are both bottom-end types in the metagame atm, and while that won't save Marshadow from being banned if it's broken, the needs of these teams may put limitations on Marshadow's use that keep it from being unhealthy in the metagame.

But who knows? Whether it ends up quickbanned, suspected, or just really really good, Marshadow is going to crash into the meta like a meteor and I can't wait.

What do you guys think?


I think people are gonna start looking into Ghost and Fighting, but if it gets banned they'll go back to their original types. Kinda like the medicham effect.

Spectral Thief
The main issue of spectral thief is the amount of priority in the meta. ddancers, belly drummers, and swords dancers all, have priority, and can knock marshadow out before it can steal boosts. I don't think it's gonna be living a +1 outrage or a +6 aqua jet from azumarill anytime soon.

Stuff on my mind

I think maybe, that the archetype of hyper offensive ghost may start becoming a thing with Marshadow's release. It could possibly form a core with Mega Banette, establishing offensive ghost.

maybe look something like this :

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

*4 speed EVs to creep bulky Mega Scizor

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Ice Punch

Mega Banette provides speed control with thunder wave and utility with knock off, pick off strong priority mons with Destiny Bond, so that Marshadow will no longer be forced to run, let's say, scarf. The way I view Marshadow, its Ghost Terrakion with priority.


Offensive ghost will probrably look something like this:


Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Ice Punch

Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Trick

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Shadow Bone
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Scald
- Recover

omg I just fucking realized how small Marshadow is
 
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I think people are gonna start looking into Ghost and Fighting, but if it gets banned they'll go back to their original types. Kinda like the medicham effect.

Spectral Thief
The main issue of spectral thief is the amount of priority in the meta. ddancers, belly drummers, and swords dancers all, have priority, and can knock marshadow out before it can steal boosts. I don't think it's gonna be living a +1 outrage or a +6 aqua jet from azumarill anytime soon.

Stuff on my mind

I think maybe, that the archetype of hyper offensive ghost may start becoming a thing with Marshadow's release. It could possibly form a core with Mega Banette, establishing offensive ghost.

maybe look something like this :

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

*4 speed EVs to creep bulky Mega Scizor

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Ice Punch

Mega Banette provides speed control with thunder wave and utility with knock off, pick off strong priority mons with Destiny Bond, so that Marshadow will no longer be forced to run, let's say, scarf. The way I view Marshadow, its Ghost Terrakion with priority.


Offensive ghost will probrably look something like this:


Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Ice Punch

Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Trick

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Shadow Bone
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Scald
- Recover

omg I just fucking realized how small Marshadow is
I don't think there will ever be a time where Mega Banette is worth using, unless we resurrect Gen 6 Monothreat.

Even on a hypothetical "hyper offense ghost" team I'd wouldn't waste a teamslot on Mega Banette when I could run Hoopa to wallbreak or tank special attacks, Doublade to switch into physical hits and offer key resists, or Froslass to toss more hazard stack into the mix. The doll just doesn't offer enough, period, regardless of playstyle. Even the team you posted looks like it'd benefit way more from running Mega Sableye in that teamslot.
 
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Marshadow is coming, and will be distributed (in Japan) on July 15 with the release of the movie, "Pokemon I Choose You". This is going to be a huge gamechanger for the meta, so much so that I feel it may even catch a ban.

Since this is a pokemon I've been waiting to drop since the SM meta began, I thought I'd share some thoughts.



There's no doubt Marshadow is going to be meta-defining: but what exactly makes it so great?
BST: 600 | 90 HP / 125 Atk / 80 Def / 90 SpA / 90 SpD / 125 Spe
Typing: Fighting / Ghost
Ability: Technician
Movepool: Spectral Thief, Shadow Sneak, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike, Close Combat, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Rock Tomb, Bulk Up, Poison Jab

*Spectral Thief: 90 BP, Ghost-Type, Steals Stat boosts before dealing damage
*Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike: 195 BP, Ghost-Type, Z-Move off of Spectral Thief
Marshadow is very strong, and not just because of his 125 Attack Stat. Marshadow's greatest asset is his Ghost / Fighting typing, which offers perfect STAB coverage that hits everything in the game neutrally. Couple this with 125 Atk, strong STABs in Close Combat and Spectral Thief, and a boosting item like Choice Band or Life Orb, and Marshadow is difficult to wall.

Marshadow's offensive potential extends beyond raw, unresisted STABs: he has strong priority with Technician-boosted Shadow Sneak to let him clean weakened teams or check frail offensive threats. He has various flavors of useful coverage like Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Poison Jab and Rock Tomb to hit what its STABs can't KO (Garchomp, Tapu Bulu, Gyarados, etc). He can even boost with Bulk Up.

However, the most unique offensive utility Marshadow offers is his signature move, Spectral Thief, which steals stat boosts before dealing damage, which allows Marshadow to act as a set up deterrent against boosting threats to the team's defensive core (Double Dance Lando-T, DD Salamence, SD Z-move Garchomp). Even more impressive is the Z-move that goes off Spectral Thief, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike, an absurdly powerful 195 BP Ghost-type attack and the best Z-move in the game.
STAB
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 202-238 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Hippowdon: 211-249 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 220-261 (54.8 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Coverage
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 380-448 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 437-515 (122 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 395-468 (140 - 165.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Shadow Sneak
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 432-510 (166.7 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 268-320 (88.4 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 299-354 (99.3 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 187-222 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Z-Move
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 247-292 (81.2 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 262-310 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 297-351 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 348-411 (114.4 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Marshadow is very fast, and outspeeds the majority of the unboosted metagame with the exception of Tapu Koko, Mega Aerodactyl, and Deoxys-Speed (and soon Mega Lopunny). With Strong Priority, Marshadow offers additional speed control by checking frail offensive threats much like Breloom. With a Choice Scarf, Marshadow is an excellent revenge killer that outspeeds the entire Scarf Meta and is even able to check boosted threats such as Sand Rush Excadrill, +2 Landorus-Therian, SS Kingdra.

Finally, Marshadow is not frail, and sports very respectable bulk with 90/80/90 defenses and a decent defensive typing.

-

So how will this play out in Monotype?
Obviously both Ghost and Fighting will benefit immensely from the introduction of a strong, fast, and versatile attacker that addresses difficult matchups for each type (Ghost vs Dark, Fighting vs Psychic / Ghost). Marshadow will definitely be S-rank on both types.

But will Marshadow be too strong for the meta to handle? While it's not the first pokemon in monotype to lack easy switchins (Lando-I), it's hard to ignore just how lopsided it can make some matchups. Psychic teams will struggle stupidly to check Marshadow with it's strong Shadow Sneak (Scarf Meloetta?) and Ghost Mirror matches will be pretty unpleasant (although Mega Sableye, Mimikyu, and Doublade all check Marshadow).

That said, it's really difficult to gauge how unbalanced Marshadow may end up given the types it'll be used on. Ghost and Fighting are both bottom-end types in the metagame atm, and while that won't save Marshadow from being banned if it's broken, the needs of these teams may put limitations on Marshadow's use that keep it from being unhealthy in the metagame.

But who knows? Whether it ends up quickbanned, suspected, or just really really good, Marshadow is going to crash into the meta like a meteor and I can't wait.

What do you guys think?

I definitely agree with how Marshadow will be an extremely influential Pokemon for both Fighting and Ghost teams. However, I wanna look more into the sets that'll probably be more prevalent on each of its types.

Fighting


Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch

I can definitely see the Life Orb set being more prevalent on Fighting teams. Choice Band could theoretically work too, but I feel as though Marshadow would prefer to have the freedom to switch up between moves against types like Psychic as well as Ground. Nothing on Psychic teams will openly want to switch into this thing, and after Stealth Rocks are set, many threats on offensive Psychic teams will flop to either a Spectral Thief, Shadow Sneak, or Close Combat.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 299-354 (99.3 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Victini: 276-328 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock(assuming it's running Hasty)

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 268-320 (88.4 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 308-363 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Some OHKOes won't even require Stealth Rock:
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 374-439 (109.6 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 351-416 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


With this being said, a potential Marshadow Fighting build could look something like this:



Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- X-Scissor

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Rock Tomb
- Spore

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pin Missile
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake


This build does a nice job at combatting Psychic teams of both archetypes, with Marshadow doing exceptionally well against offensive Psychic teams while Mega Heracross breaks through more balanced Psychic teams. Breloom and Keldeo also assist in taking on Mega Slowbro, which Marshadow can at times fail to 2HKO with Spectral Thief. Mega Heracross could alternatively run Swords Dance over Earthquake to tear through general balance builds easier. However, on a team like this, immediate damage on Toxapex is rather important. Another potential alternative for the team is Pursuit over Ice Punch on Marshadow, since it can naturally force out many Psychic types, and can take advantage of this possibly when trying to get rid of Choice Scarf Latios, as well as Regen Slowbro if it tries to switch. Overall a solid build that I think will do very nicely against Psychic teams.

Ghost



Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch


As Tyke said, Choice Scarf Marshadow is capable of outspeeding the entire Choice Scarfed metagame, as well as Excadrill in sand. Nailing Excadrill in sand is extremely important for Ghost teams, since Gourgeist-Super tends to be rather passive at times, and isn't incredibly difficult for Ground teams to pressure. This set provides nice speed control for Ghost teams, outspeeding threats such as Greninja, Scarf Hydreigon, and +1 Mega Sharpedo just like Gengar would, except Marshadow will be able to outspeed Scarf Latios rather than simply speed tying. This set can allow Gengar to diversify with a Life Orb or even Choice Specs set for some special wallbreaking. This set looks similar to the set I put for Fighting, except it has Stone Edge over Shadow Sneak. The reason behind this is because with this, Marshadow would be capable of checking +1 Volcarona and Mega Charizard Y from full health, which can't be said for Scarf Gengar.

With this being said, a potential balanced Ghost build could look something like this:



Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch

Gengar @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt / Dazzling Gleam

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Fire Punch
- Bonemerang
- Stealth Rock

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Recover


This team is pretty much standard Balanced Ghost, but with Marshadow in the final slot instead of something like Hoopa, Dhelmise, or Gourgeist-Super. With Marshadow filling the Choice Scarf role for speed control, Gengar is free to run a Life Orb or Choice Specs wallbreaking set. Thunderbolt is an option due to being able to target Mantine and Toxapex, which could be serious nuisances. The other option is Dazzling Gleam due to having something more consistent to target Dark teams, while also being more consistent against Dragon teams, being able to consistently OHKO Hydreigon and Specs sets being able to OHKO Dragonite after Stealth Rock. For the Jellicent, 12 Speed is ran simply for specially defensive Celesteelas, since you can Taunt them before they can Leech Seed. Overall a build that I can see being very successful in the metagame right now.

Let me know what you think or if you have any particular ideas outside of these ones :)



 

Oh boy Marshadow I was slightly right about the release date of marshadow and boy was I prepared to come up with some ways that it can be dealt with.

So I am going to be looking at this from a fighting users perspective for the most part as I am not well versed with ghost. Also I will be using smub's fighting set mentioned above for the defending calcs. Now without further ado, lets take a look at some checks.


Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Aura Sphere

Red means attacking
Blue means defending

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 510-600 (158.8 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 220-259 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 109-130 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 33.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


This threat to fighting is still a threat to even the likes of marshadow. It cannot switch in or set up tr, but it can still ohko marshadow with fleur cannon. It isn't the best check, but it is worth noting as this means that marshadow cannot switch into it, especially with TR activated.


Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
- Roost

Red means attacking
Blue means defending


252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 177-208 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 258-306 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Once Skarmory gets one Brave Bird off Marshadow can only attack one or two more times before it dies from lo damage, without lo and with a Z-crystal Skarmory can still wall the attack and roost its health back, then proceed to 2hko it.




Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Shockingly, Tapu Koko will outspeed marshadow and potentially OHKO it with dazzling gleam. Specs guarantee's the kill but I chose to post the LO set in order to avoid getting choice locked.

You know the drill

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow in Electric Terrain: 232-274 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
<- this is magnet/ Zap plate koko, and this calc shows why you need lo in order to KO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 299-354 (93.1 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO <- this is an iffy chance which is why specs is the true check to marshadow
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 344-408 (107.1 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Specs isn't common in the meta right now, but it is still a healthy alternative to deal with marshadow no?



Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baneful Bunker
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover

Lol even with the Z-move Toxapex still walls pretty well against marshadow and can outstall it very well. It can either scald or poison marshadow, which either way will cripple its survivability.

Have you not looked at the other calcs? You know the drill.

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 99-118 (32.5 - 38.8%) -- 4.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the most LO can do to toxapex, which isn't much.
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 112-133 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is another option that still doesn't do much.


Also the sets that Tyke mentioned like scarf meloetta actually do work, not sure if it is a healthy resolution for psychic tho. I can't think of all of the checks for marshadow atm but one thing is still for certain, this monster makes some matchups a living hell. Then again it isn't the first one to do this (cue mega-scizor montage), but with the unresisted stabs and decent defensive typing it will sure shift the meta.

Also when I was looking for checks for marshadow I found some mons that I could not go into detail for so that this isn't a large post so I will just post mini descriptions of them for your convienience.

Rock Check:
- Rhyperior with solid rock and bulky offensive EV's can take an attack and kill instantly if WP or choice band Earthquake.

Poison check:
- Venusaur-mega walls marshadow and can stall it out with leech seed and synthesis stall. This applies to grass as well.

Psychic Check?:
- Deoxys-defense can actually take a spectral thief from lo Marshadow but it can't eat a Soul Stealing Strike even at full health, I mention this because that means that it might replace deoxys-speed for its hazard laying role as shadow sneak will instantly kill deo-speed, but not deo-defense. With reflect up, psychic can then send in their latios or other sweeper and take care of marshadow now that its attacks do half to them, so you may see that on release not completely sure though.

Ground Check:
- Hippowdon can take ice punch relatively well from marshadow and countinue to slack off then wear it down with lo damage and sandstorm chip damage, the only thing you have to worry about in this case would be a freeze.

Fighting check?:
- Keldeo if rocks are down can OHKO MArshadow with specs hydro pump and if the set is lo shadow. It loses to the Z-move variant which is why it isn't the best check for fighting anyway.

What do you guys think? Are there enough checks for marshadow out there or do some types have no way of stopping it at all? I would love to hear some other check ideas.
one thing as a ghost user, you have to watch out for ditto taking advantage of your shit. So that could be a soft check for marshadow on normal I guess.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
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Speaking of Ghost, I think it's a bit underrated even in the current metagame.

The older Ghost builds that call back to ORAS Ghost tend to be more defensive in nature, packing Jellicent and even sometimes something like Gourgeist-XL. I think the best way to use Ghost right now is to actually just go all out in offense. The defensive core really hasn't kept up when you look at the introduction of Z-Moves and other powerful attackers like Greninja in SM. On the other hand, Ghost received two offensive powerhouses in Mimikyu and Alolan Marowak. I've experimented with both complete TR teams, standard offense, and even just balance, and I'm fairly certain TR Ghost is probably the most reliable way to build (as reliable as Ghost can get at least lol).

When it comes to just pure type matchups, TR Ghost is actually favored against quite a lot. Psychic obviously loses no matter what, but with TR up, Fairy and Steel struggle to stop Alolan Marowak from collecting KO after KO, especially when it has SD to guarantee OHKOs. Having two great matchups and a third respectable one against the top three types should be a testament to how powerful Ghost can be. However, once we look to the tier right below them, I think Ghost's problems become much more obvious. Normal and Ground are actually very difficult to handle due to the sheer power of Diggersby, Meloetta, and Ghost-type Z-Conversion Porygon-Z and Excadrill, Garchomp, and Landorus, respectively.

Just by virtue of having reliable matchups against the top three, I feel like Ghost is definitely a lot better than it's given credit for. It's not amazing because every archetype struggles with a handful of types, but that's the risk that comes with any middle-to-high tier type in SM (Just look at Water vs. Tapu Bulu lol).

I'm really curious to see how Marshadow changes things here. I really want to use Choice Band more than anything else because that breaks so many more cores. Flying can't switch in, Dark (!) can't switch in, Water can't switch in. However, I can't deny Choice Scarf's ability to outspeed Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill and Swift Swim Kingdra would be a huge boon. I'm seeing some great synergy with SD Alolan Marowak breaking Choice Scarf Marshadow's counters, allowing that ridiculous Speed to be put to full use. I think balance will tend more to Choice Band for the breaking power, since Choice Scarf Gengar is certainly fast enough and the defensive core can handle the weather sweepers. My guess is that offense will use Choice Scarf to support its matchups against other offense and I wouldn't be surprised to see more than one Ghost archetype jump very high in viability.

As a side note, smub, Stone Edge is begging for misses. Just use Rock Tomb like Breloom does; Marshadow has Technician for a reason. 15 accuracy for a mere 10 BP? That's a trade I'll take every day of the week, especially on a revenge killer that needs reliability and consistency.
 
Speaking of Ghost, I think it's a bit underrated even in the current metagame.

The older Ghost builds that call back to ORAS Ghost tend to be more defensive in nature, packing Jellicent and even sometimes something like Gourgeist-XL. I think the best way to use Ghost right now is to actually just go all out in offense. The defensive core really hasn't kept up when you look at the introduction of Z-Moves and other powerful attackers like Greninja in SM. On the other hand, Ghost received two offensive powerhouses in Mimikyu and Alolan Marowak. I've experimented with both complete TR teams, standard offense, and even just balance, and I'm fairly certain TR Ghost is probably the most reliable way to build (as reliable as Ghost can get at least lol).

When it comes to just pure type matchups, TR Ghost is actually favored against quite a lot. Psychic obviously loses no matter what, but with TR up, Fairy and Steel struggle to stop Alolan Marowak from collecting KO after KO, especially when it has SD to guarantee OHKOs. Having two great matchups and a third respectable one against the top three types should be a testament to how powerful Ghost can be. However, once we look to the tier right below them, I think Ghost's problems become much more obvious. Normal and Ground are actually very difficult to handle due to the sheer power of Diggersby, Meloetta, and Ghost-type Z-Conversion Porygon-Z and Excadrill, Garchomp, and Landorus, respectively.

Just by virtue of having reliable matchups against the top three, I feel like Ghost is definitely a lot better than it's given credit for. It's not amazing because every archetype struggles with a handful of types, but that's the risk that comes with any middle-to-high tier type in SM (Just look at Water vs. Tapu Bulu lol).

I'm really curious to see how Marshadow changes things here. I really want to use Choice Band more than anything else because that breaks so many more cores. Flying can't switch in, Dark (!) can't switch in, Water can't switch in. However, I can't deny Choice Scarf's ability to outspeed Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill and Swift Swim Kingdra would be a huge boon. I'm seeing some great synergy with SD Alolan Marowak breaking Choice Scarf Marshadow's counters, allowing that ridiculous Speed to be put to full use. I think balance will tend more to Choice Band for the breaking power, since Choice Scarf Gengar is certainly fast enough and the defensive core can handle the weather sweepers. My guess is that offense will use Choice Scarf to support its matchups against other offense and I wouldn't be surprised to see more than one Ghost archetype jump very high in viability.

As a side note, smub, Stone Edge is begging for misses. Just use Rock Tomb like Breloom does; Marshadow has Technician for a reason. 15 accuracy for a mere 10 BP? That's a trade I'll take every day of the week, especially on a revenge killer that needs reliability and consistency.
For some reason I forgot that it had access to Rock Tomb. I also have yet to try out TR Ghost, and I may look into it more.

Also when I was looking for checks for marshadow I found some mons that I could not go into detail for so that this isn't a large post so I will just post mini descriptions of them for your convienience.

Rock Check:
- Rhyperior with solid rock and bulky offensive EV's can take an attack and kill instantly if WP or choice band Earthquake.

Poison check:
- Venusaur-mega walls marshadow and can stall it out with leech seed and synthesis stall. This applies to grass as well.

Psychic Check?:
- Deoxys-defense can actually take a spectral thief from lo Marshadow but it can't eat a Soul Stealing Strike even at full health, I mention this because that means that it might replace deoxys-speed for its hazard laying role as shadow sneak will instantly kill deo-speed, but not deo-defense. With reflect up, psychic can then send in their latios or other sweeper and take care of marshadow now that its attacks do half to them, so you may see that on release not completely sure though.

Ground Check:
- Hippowdon can take ice punch relatively well from marshadow and countinue to slack off then wear it down with lo damage and sandstorm chip damage, the only thing you have to worry about in this case would be a freeze.

Fighting check?:
- Keldeo if rocks are down can OHKO MArshadow with specs hydro pump and if the set is lo shadow. It loses to the Z-move variant which is why it isn't the best check for fighting anyway.

What do you guys think? Are there enough checks for marshadow out there or do some types have no way of stopping it at all? I would love to hear some other check ideas.
Another check for Rock teams is Mega Aerodactyl, who can outspeed even Choice Scarf sets after Sticky Web has been set and will be OHKOing just about every single time with Aerial Ace. If Choice Band Terrakion is carrying Zen Headbutt, it can outspeed Life Orb/Choice Band sets after Sticky Web has been set and OHKO a lot of the time with a Zen Headbutt.

Poison also has the Toxapex that you mentioned earlier, as well as Crobat, who can outspeed Life Orb/Choice Band variants and live a hit from Choice Scarf variants and OHKO with Brave Bird after only a little bit of prior chip damage.

The most consistent checks Psychic would have for Marshadow are Choice Scarf Meloetta and Focus Sash Alakazam, since nearly everything else dies to a Life Orb/Choice Band Shadow Sneak/Spectral Thief after Stealth Rock.

And for a Fighting check, you can use your own Marshadow and hope to win the speed tie there more than likely isn't a very consistent one, unless you call Scarf Zen Headbutt Terrakion flinching consistent.
 
I know everyone is anticipating Marshadow arrival soon, but I still think that there is one more thing that we need to take care of before Marshadow arrives:
Magearna


We've all seen this threat in action with its 80/115/115 bulk, typing, team support, moveset, and sheer power when it gets started. With a fantastic ability in Soul Heart (which activates even when the opponent sacks a Pokemon to hazards), the only thing that is standing in its way is it’s speed. However, even that can be fixed with Shift Gear or, more dangerously, Trick Room (which allows it to invest in HP rather than Speed). Several others, along with myself, believe that Magearna deserves a suspect test

Moveset

Do I even need to talk about Magearna's moveset? It's one of the best that I have seen since Hoopa or Greninja. It can be tailored to sweep most types with various combinations like BoltBeam for Flying or Aura Sphere and Thunderbolt for Steel. While these moves may seem lacking coming from a base 130 Special Attack, there is one thing in Magearna’s arsenal that surpasses all of that: Z-Fleur Cannon. A stab Z-Fleur Cannon is a monster coming from the base 130 special attack of a max Special Attack Magearna, which can help it to start its sweep against nuetral pokemon

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 326-386 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Zapdos: 297-351 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 369-435 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


Once it’s sweep is started, it can be difficult to stop it. Also keep in mind that only 3 types resist Fairy: Steel, Poison, and Fire. Any other type will be taking a neutral, stab Z-Fleur Cannon. At that point, Magearna can generally spam whatever coverage moves it brought until the battle is over. So while yes, options besides the big four (Fleur Cannon, Thunderbolt, Aura Sphere, and Flash Cannon) may not be as viable, they can be used because almost any attack from a +1 Magearna is scary. That is why a Magearna with Aura Sphere and HP Fire can demolish a Steel team or a Magearna with Bolt Beam can destroy a Flying team. It can even run Energy Ball and Ice Beam for ground if it truly needs to. Generally, all Magearna needs is a +1, and then not much stands in it’s way, and the few things that do can’t generally do much back.

From Magearna:

+1 252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 368-436 (98.3 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 238-282 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+1 252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 172-204 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO


To Magearna:

0 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 64-76 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 46-55 (12.6 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO

0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 92-110 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


Bulk

Now yes, I do understand that it seems like I am talking about Magearna as if one hit starts its sweep. Sometimes, that is all it needs. However, if it cannot start a sweep in one attack, that’s when it relies on its bulk. As I mentioned earlier, Magearna has 80/115/115 bulk, which, coupled with a Steel/Fairy typing, gives Magearna many opportunities to set up as it only has two weaknesses with nine resistances and two immunities.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 288-342 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 296-350 (81.3 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 326-386 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


Teambuilding

Magearna, as fantastic as it may be, is still only one pokemon, which is when we look to its team. Magearna alone is a threat that can be a difficult to handle, but both Fairy and Steel have support that can further ease Magearna’s sweep. Steel has Heatran for all Fire attacks and Skarmory for Ground ones. Ferrothorn can set up Spikes, breaking any sashes that could threaten Magearna and Excadrill can handle the special tanks that give Magearna trouble. Fairy can provide similar support as well in Azumarill and Tapu Bulu who provide physical pressure on threats like Chansey or other special walls. And don’t forget the infamous keys: Klefki. Fairy has the ability to half all of the damage Magearna would take, further increasing her ease to set up.

Type Match-Ups:

The problem with Magearna is that is can pressure so many types. However, for the sake of argument, I will only consider how Magearna’s four most common moves affect certain matchups, those four moves being Fleur Cannon, Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, and Aura Sphere. Also for the sake of the argument, I won’t address Ice, Grass, Ghost, and Fighting as those are commonly cited “bad” types and arguing for those types would cause a similar issue like with Mega Scizor: they would still be bad with or without Magearna.

Dark – Though Dark is not a prominent type, Magearna destroys it. Nothing on Dark lives a Z-Fluer Cannon with the exception of some specially defensive variants of Tyranitar and Alolan Muk. Tyranitar can do damage back to Magearna with Earthquake, but Muk does not do much damage back to Magearna.

Dragon – Similarly to Dark, Dragon also falls to Magearna once Trick Room goes up as the only thing that can take a Z-Fleur Cannon is Dragalge, but even that falls to one more hit, and doesn’t do much in return.

Electric – Magnezone can cause Magearna problems, especially if it is a Sturdy variant. Zapdos can live a Z-Fleur Cannon if rocks are not up, and Alolan Golem could straight up galvanize explode and OHKO Magearna if its sash is in place, but all three of these checks can be broken through Stealth Rocks.

Fairy – The only check real check to Magearna is Magearna itself as Fairy is not known for its Fire or Ground damage, although Klefki can set up screens and inhibit the sweep, allowing something like Tapu Koko to try and take it out.

Flying – Flying can be handled with a Z-Fleur Cannon and Thunderbolt (with the occasional Ice Beam, though it isn’t all that common). Mantine dies in two hits to Thunderbolt, and Skarmory has Sturdy to whirlwind it out. But like electric, this can be remedied with Stealth Rocks.

Ground – Magearna isn’t the first threat that comes to mind when building a ground team, but it has the potential to be, living a ground attack from various pokemon while it sets up Shift Gear or Trick Room. Then it kills almost everything with a neutral Z-Fleur Cannon and Flash Cannon or Aura Sphere (or both if it isn’t running Thunderbolt). Excadrill is definitely a problem for Magearna as Excadrill resists Z-Fleur Cannon and Flash Cannon, but, if the Excadrill is down to about 80%, an Aura Sphere can kill it.

Normal – Chansey is definitely the pokemon to mention here, but with this is where the team support Magearna has comes into play. Once Chansey is dealt with, then Magearna can go to town, especially if it is running Aura Sphere.

Poison – Poison may resist Z-Fleur Cannon, but that isn’t the only move Magearna carries. Flash Cannon and Thunderbolt can do the job even though Magearna does have to worry about the infamous Poison core. Both Venusaur and Toxapex can take the Z-Fleur cannon (or even Muk can with an Assault Vest), Then Toxapex can take the Flash Cannons and Venusaur can take the Thunderbolts. The problem though is that Magearna can switch at will between these moves, slowly wearing down the core while the core struggles to hit it back, with a Hidden Power Fire or an Earthquake from Venusaur doing the most. However, once one of the three fall, Magearna gets a boost, and can snowball from there.

Psychic – Victini is probably the most notable thing here as a Scarf Victini can OHKO Magearna, but Steel has easy access to Stealth Rock and Heatran for Victini, and then Klefki can set of a Reflect for Magearna. Jirachi can also be a nuisance with its Stab Iron Head, trying to flinch Magearna to death. Jirachi’s steel typing also grants it a resistence to Z-Fleur Cannon and Flash Cannon, and Aura Sphere is neutral to Jirachi, and, unlike Victini, Jirachi resists Stealth Rock. But once these two pokemon are taken care of by Magearna’s teammates, Magearna can sweep, as a specially defensive Mew falls to a Z-Fleur Cannon. This matchup can be difficult for Magearna to sweep against because of Jirachi and Victini, but not impossible.

Steel – Although Steel resists Z-Fleur Cannon, Aura Sphere and Thunderbolt are two moves that can help get Magearna started in a sweep later in the game once its checks are sufficiently weakened. Heatran can check it before the sweep, hurting Magearna with Lava Plume and then taking the Aura Sphere after Trick room goes up and Excadrill is still a threat to Magearna like on ground, but after a boost, neither Heatran nor Excadrill will appreciate an Aura Sphere, with Thunderbolt for thinks like Skarmory or Celesteela. This sweep is probably the hardest to pull off, but like Psychic, it also isn’t impossible for Magearna to do.

Water – The only pokemon that can check Magearna is Toxapex. Tapu Bulu is on Fairy to help remedy that situation with Wood Hammer, and steel struggles with Toxapex anyway. However, Toxapex is not impossible for Magearna to break if it runs Thunderbolt. Also, Z-Fleur Cannon can handle Lanturn or Swampert. Then the combination of Z-Fleur Cannon and Thunderbolt can dismantle water.


Of course, Magearna can't threaten all of these types at once but it can threaten many of them at once if it is running three of the moves consistently used above, and it has amazing team support to handle the things it can’t.


Here are some replays that I found to show Magearna’s versatility and sweeping and hole breaking ability as well as its outstanding team support

#1 - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-588906896

This was taken from MPL and it shows the pressure that a Magearna can put on Water which Steel can struggle with.

#2 - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-578882065

This was also taken from MPL showing how Magearna can nearly flip the tides against Poison for Fairy featuring our own Eien

#3 - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7monotype-291608

Also taken from MPL, but this battle shows Magearna sweeping a Poison team in the end unlike the last one.

#4 - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/azure-gen7monotype-145653

Then this was taken from one of today’s ULC battles where a Magearna Sweep allowed the player to come back and win.


Magearna has been the topic of controversy for a while now as evidenced in the forums for the past while. Yes, I believe that all of the arguments I have posted today have been heard before, but now I am another voice against Magearna. The time of quickbans is generally behind us, and many voices are crying the same thing. The only way we can properly settle this debate is to let the community formally decide though a suspect test of Magearna so that the voice of the majority can overpower that of the minority.
 
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Magearna has been the topic of controversy for a while now as evidenced in the forums for the past while. Yes, I believe that all of the arguments I have posted today have been heard before, but now I am another voice against Magearna. The time of quickbans is generally behind us, and many voices are crying the same thing. The only way we can properly settle this debate is to let the community formally decide though a suspect test of Magearna so that the voice of the majority can overpower that of the minority.
Well that's dramatic.

I can't speak for the Mono Council or other dissenters, but I'm not rigidly opposed to a suspect; I just haven't heard any compelling arguments to convince me Magearna is worth examining before threats such as Tapu Koko or Mewnium Z. I feel most "Suspect Magearna" arguments don't speak to the ways Magearna may actually be unhealthy: instead focusing on it's faux versatility (energy ball, Ice beam?) or suboptimal sets.

So if you want to convince the "minority" to suspect Magearna, here are some suggestions:
  • Focus on the Magearna sets that may actually be overcentralizing the metagame: Trick Room and arguably Calm Mind. More importantly, explain why exactly these sets are dangerous: what makes them difficult to check, what types struggle with them, how can Trick Room trample offense, what can Balance do against Calm Mind?
  • Present calcs and scenarios that are relevant to Magearna's impact on the metagame: how does being able to KO Goodra or Mantine make Magearna broken?
  • Go into further detail regarding the team support Steel and Fairy teams provide Magearna and how it can skew matchups. For example, the reason Magearna can be a threat to Ground teams is largely because of the set-up opportunities Tapu Bulu's grassy terrain provides by halfing Earthquake Damage. Another example might how Magearna benefits from Koko's electric terrain by gaining pseudo-STAB on Thunderbolt.
  • Examine how the metagame has adapted to Magearna, and discuss whether these adaptations are healthy. Are types forced to run niche checks to manage Magearna? Is it pushing some types out of the metagame entirely? (Dark, Dragon?) If you can demonstrate that Magearna is overcentralizing the metagame it will go a long way towards getting it suspected.
  • Find replays that demonstrate the above arguments: not just ones that showcase Magearna being effective in general. Replay #4 comes the closest to this by showing how easily Trick Room Magearna flipped the tables on Offensive Electric.
Again, I'm not really swinging either way, but I think people would be a lot more inclined to suspect if we heard arguments that examined the ways Magearna actually impacts (and possibly limits) the relevant meta in an unhealthy way.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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Back on the topic of Marshadow, I want to talk for a bit about potential mixed sets. With its decent 90 Special Attack and Technician, mixed sets can serve as an effective way of removing Pokemon that it wouldn't net KOs on otherwise, such as Skarmory, offensive Mega Scizor, and bulky Garchomp with the appropriate Hidden Power, whether it be Fire or Ice. Here are some calcs:

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 354-421 (84.8 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

In comparison to Ice Punch: 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 333-395 (79.8 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Fire vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 200-237 (61.1 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In comparison to Close Combat: 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 312-369 (111 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In comparison to Close Combat: 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scizor-Mega: 185-218 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Landorus-Therian: 359-426 (93.9 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

In comparison to Ice Punch: -1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Landorus-Therian: 218-260 (57 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 205-242 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In comparison to Close Combat: 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 160-188 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It is true that some of these aren't guaranteed, which leads to the possibility of investing a bit extra into its special attack in order to guarantee some of these KOs or 2HKOs. It may seem as though it's not worth giving up too much of its physically offensive presence, but that's just me. Let me know what you think about potential mixed sets and how they may work in the metagame.
 
tfw accidentally post before completed. Anyways..

Before I get into my more in depth analyses on Marshadow and matchups, I thought I'd quickly jump off of what smub said about possible Marshadow sets and suggest a third set that could be worth using.
Adamant Choice Band Marshadow



Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Ice Punch / Drain Punch / Pursuit

This set sacrifices speed to rather act as a wallbreaker, likely for Ghost teams, with the power to 2HKO basically everything in the tier, including Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, Hippodown, etc.

The first three moveslots are set in stone, but the last can go to Ice Punch to OHKO tank chomp and Gliscor or Drain Punch for some more longevity and no defense drops. A neat third options I've been considering is Pursuit for trapping all those Ghost/Psyhuc mons scared out by shadow sneak.
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-211 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Hippowdon: 204-240 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 151-178 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 220-259 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unfortunately, this means you are now outsped by base 110s+, but looking at this list, Marshadow scares out most of these anyway (Lati@s, Gengar, soon-to-be Mega Gallade). The main threat you lose out to is Greninja, but overall it doesn't seem like too bad of a tradeoff, and maybe Offensive teams could make use of the extra firepower.
Anyways, onto the main course.

-

Matchups that Marshadow might break or skew:
Before I start, I'll be discussing the impact of Marshadow's all-out-attacking life orb / choice band set, specifically its usage on Ghost. No offense to Fighting, but I think we all know which type is going to become more relevant from this buff.

Of course Marshadow is going to be very broadly effective in all matchups with it's excellent speed, attack, and unresisted STAB coverage. Marshadow has few explicit counters, but this is nothing new for Monotype which has long housed powerhouses such as Landorus-I. It's reliance on Close Combat to wallbreak makes it easier for defensive fighting-resists such as Mega Venusaur or Toxapex to manage it while the defense drops make it easier for bulky mons to check. Additionally, while Shadow Sneak is strong, Marshadow lacks an efficient boosting move such as Swords Dance, so it's tankable by the majority of revenge killers in the meta.

In conclusion, there is a decent supply of offensive and defensive checks to Life Orb Marshadow on most types.

However, no pokemon acts alone, and many of the "checks" types have for Marshadow are limited and predictable and very easily managed by Ghost's team support. Mega Sableye and Jellicent form a strong defensive backbone, Gengar is an excellent revenge killer, and Mimikyu blanket checks offensive threats that Marshadow can't check. Mimikyu + Marshadow form a very dangerous core against offensive teams, in particular.

So these are the types that I think will really struggle with Marshadow, either on it's own or with Team Support:
Psychic: So going over these matchups it seems that, on it's own, Marshadow has the most dramatic impact in the Psychic matchup (surprise!). Psychic has checks, such as Psyshock Mega Slowbro, Scarf Meloetta, or Sash Zam, and depending how popular ghost gets I could see Kasib berries becoming the new colbur. However, these checks are very easily played around by Ghost teams with Mega Sableye / Jellicent support, so this matchup will almost certainly be lopsided af, though that isn't new for Ghost vs Psychic.
Dragon: Marshadow + Mimikyu is going to be a really unpleasant core to deal with. With Ice Punch, Marshadow has no switch ins and cannot be revenged by the most common Scarf on Dragon, Latios. Hydreigon can still put pressure on Ghost teams, but also cannot revenge kill unless Marshadow has incurred SpD drops after using close combat.
Fire: Marshadow outspeeds the majority of Fire-types and if either (A) rocks are up or (B) Marshadow is using Rock Tomb then it can KO everything it outspeeds. The revenge killers Fire has access to are Victini, who is KOd by Shadow Sneak, and Infernape, who is frail and can only take LO Sneak if very healthy. Combined with Ghost's ease setting rocks against Fire (and Fire's inability to Spin), this matchup will be very much in Ghost's favor.
Electric: Tapu Koko and revenge killers like Scarf Xurkitree can revenge kill Marshadow if their healthy (sneak does 50-60% to each). However, Alola Marowak switches in on Xurkitree and Koko pretty consistently and puts huge pressure on Electric. Rotom-Wash can check it and spread status, but between Marshadow, Alola Wak, and Mimikyu, this matchup seems heavily in Ghosts favor.
Bug: Much like Fire, bug cannot spin on Ghost so getting rocks up is very easy. Combine that with Marshadow's excellent offenses letting it pick mons like Volcarona after rocks and Bug's difficulty revenge killing it (heracross and scolipede are ineffective) puts a ton of pressure on the type's offensive cores. Combine that with Mimikyu blanket checking every offensive Bug, and this should be an ugly matchup.
Ground: Marshadow outspeeds most pokemon on Ground and threatens them heavily with LO Close Combat or Ice Punch KOing Garchomp, Landorus, Landourus-T, Nidoking, etc. Dugtrio can't even try to trap it with Close combat defense drops because it's a Ghost type. Hippo can manage Marshadow decently, but also lets in mega sableye. Excadrill is the only hard check, and only in sand.
Note: Ice, Fighting, and Rock also get swamped but do I really need to write out why that's the case?

To be clear, this is not to say Marshadow won't be amazing in other relevant matchups: the above are just the most dramatic. It'll definitely have a huge impact against Steel, Normal, Flying, and even Dark. There's no matchup where I see it being useless.

-

Anyways, those are just some musings on Marshadow. We won't really know how it'll fit into the meta until it drops, but I'm hype af to find out.
 
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tfw accidentally post before completed. Anyways..

Before I get into my more in depth analyses on Marshadow and matchups, I thought I'd quickly jump off of what smub said about possible Marshadow sets and suggest a third set that could be worth using.
Adamant Choice Band Marshadow



Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Ice Punch / Drain Punch / Pursuit

This set sacrifices speed to rather act as a wallbreaker, likely for Ghost teams, with the power to 2HKO basically everything in the tier, including Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, Hippodown, etc.

The first three moveslots are set in stone, but the last can go to Ice Punch to OHKO tank chomp and Gliscor or Drain Punch for some more longevity and no defense drops. A neat third options I've been considering is Pursuit for trapping all those Ghost/Psyhuc mons scared out by shadow sneak.
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-211 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Hippowdon: 204-240 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 151-178 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 220-259 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unfortunately, this means you are now outsped by base 110s+, but looking at this list, Marshadow scares out most of these anyway (Lati@s, Gengar, soon-to-be Mega Gallade). The main threat you lose out to is Greninja, but overall it doesn't seem like too bad of a tradeoff, and maybe Offensive teams could make use of the extra firepower.
Anyways, onto the main course.

-

Matchups that Marshadow might break or skew:
Before I start, I'll be discussing the impact of Marshadow's all-out-attacking life orb / choice band set, specifically its usage on Ghost. No offense to Fighting, but I think we all know which type is going to become more relevant from this buff.

Of course Marshadow is going to be very broadly effective in all matchups with it's excellent speed, attack, and unresisted STAB coverage. Marshadow has few explicit counters, but this is nothing new for Monotype which has long housed powerhouses such as Landorus-I. It's reliance on Close Combat to wallbreak makes it easier for defensive fighting-resists such as Mega Venusaur or Toxapex to manage it while the defense drops make it easier for bulky mons to check. Additionally, while Shadow Sneak is strong, Marshadow lacks an efficient boosting move such as Swords Dance, so it's tankable by the majority of revenge killers in the meta.

In conclusion, there is a decent supply of offensive and defensive checks to Life Orb Marshadow on most types.

However, no pokemon acts alone, and many of the "checks" types have for Marshadow are limited and predictable and very easily managed by Ghost's team support. Mega Sableye and Jellicent form a strong defensive backbone, Gengar is an excellent revenge killer, and Mimikyu blanket checks offensive threats that Marshadow can't check. Mimikyu + Marshadow form a very dangerous core against offensive teams, in particular.

So these are the types that I think will really struggle with Marshadow, either on it's own or with Team Support:
Psychic: So going over these matchups it seems that, on it's own, Marshadow has the most dramatic impact in the Psychic matchup (surprise!). Psychic has checks, such as Psyshock Mega Slowbro, Scarf Meloetta, or Sash Zam, and depending how popular ghost gets I could see Kasib berries becoming the new colbur. However, these checks are very easily played around by Ghost teams with Mega Sableye / Jellicent support, so this matchup will almost certainly be lopsided af, though that isn't new for Ghost vs Psychic.
Dragon: Marshadow + Mimikyu is going to be a really unpleasant core to deal with. With Ice Punch, Marshadow has no switch ins and cannot be revenged by the most common Scarf on Dragon, Latios. Hydreigon can still put pressure on Ghost teams, but also cannot revenge kill unless Marshadow has incurred SpD drops after using close combat.
Fire: Marshadow outspeeds the majority of Fire-types and if either (A) rocks are up or (B) Marshadow is using Rock Tomb then it can KO everything it outspeeds. The revenge killers Fire has access to are Victini, who is KOd by Shadow Sneak, and Infernape, who is frail and can only take LO Sneak if very healthy. Combined with Ghost's ease setting rocks against Fire (and Fire's inability to Spin), this matchup will be very much in Ghost's favor.
Electric: Tapu Koko and revenge killers like Scarf Xurkitree can revenge kill Marshadow if their healthy (sneak does 50-60% to each). However, Alola Marowak switches in on Xurkitree and Koko pretty consistently and puts huge pressure on Electric. Rotom-Wash can check it and spread status, but between Marshadow, Alola Wak, and Mimikyu, this matchup seems heavily in Ghosts favor.
Bug: Much like Fire, bug cannot spin on Ghost so getting rocks up is very easy. Combine that with Marshadow's excellent offenses letting it pick mons like Volcarona after rocks and Bug's difficulty revenge killing it (heracross and scolipede are ineffective) puts a ton of pressure on the type's offensive cores. Combine that with Mimikyu blanket checking every offensive Bug, and this should be an ugly matchup.
Ground: Marshadow outspeeds most pokemon on Ground and threatens them heavily with LO Close Combat or Ice Punch KOing Garchomp, Landorus, Landourus-T, Nidoking, etc. Dugtrio can't even try to trap it with Close combat defense drops because it's a Ghost type. Hippo can manage Marshadow decently, but also lets in mega sableye. Excadrill is the only hard check, and only in sand.
Note: Ice, Fighting, and Rock also get swamped but do I really need to write out why that's the case?

To be clear, this is not to say Marshadow won't be amazing in other relevant matchups: the above are just the most dramatic. It'll definitely have a huge impact against Steel, Normal, Flying, and even Dark. There's no matchup where I see it being useless.

-

Anyways, those are just some musings on Marshadow. We won't really know how it'll fit into the meta until it drops, but I'm hype af to find out.
I agree with what you said about the matchups that will definitely have a rough time when Marshadow shows up. I'll try examining these types of matchups as well, but specifically when tied to Fighting rather than Ghost:
It should be obvious that Marshadow will heavily benefit Fighting teams in the Ghost matchup, due to having a powerful Ghost STAB to abuse, outspeeding most of their Pokemon and leaving no switch-ins for Ghost teams. Here are some of the calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 499-588 (123.8 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 48 HP / 4 Def Marowak-Alola: 343-406 (125.6 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 174-211 (54 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(has a slight chance of KOing wth the following Shadow Sneak)

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 234-276 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Choice Scarf Gengar and Mimikyu will be blown back by a Shadow Sneak, and if Mimikyu tries to check it with its Disguise up, Fighting teams have Cobalion to fall back on, who can very easily break the disguise without sustaining too much damage.

Marshadow greatly benefits Fighting teams when breaking through the Skarmdos+Mantine core(Gliscor is also sometimes in this core). Depending on its coverage of choice(Ice Punch, Rock Tomb, even HP Fire on mixed sets), nothing on this incredible defensive backbone will want to switch into Marshadow. Here are some calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 250-294 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(this is amazing for Keldeo specifically, since it'll never want to switch into a potential Icy Wind after this damage)

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 286-338 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Fire vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 200-237 (61.1 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Marshadow is capable of outspeeding many of the common wallbreakers seen on Flying teams, like Mega Charizard Y, Landorus, and Dragonite, and is able to easily remove them with the appropriate coverage. However, Flying teams do have potential revenge killers in Choice Scarf Togekiss and Landorus-Therian, which will be far more difficult for Fighting teams to switch into than with Ghost teams.

A lot of the matchups Tyke listed are matchups that Fighting teams will have large difficulty with, like Psychic, Electric, and Bug. A lot of the points for these matchups have already been made, so I won't particularly go into them. I do want to echo what Namranan said about potential checks that certain types may start running in an attempt to deal with Marshadow.

Ice: Ice teams do have some forms of speed control in Scarf Mamoswine and Scarf Kyurem-Black, which can outspeed and do loads of damage to Marshadow. Kyurem-Black even has a slight chance of OHKOing it with Outrage, but the same can't be said for Mamoswine's Earthquake, or Alolan Sandslash's Icicle Crash. Avalugg can also comfortably switch into a Life Orb Close Combat a lot of the time. There's also the less reliable Weavile, who only speed ties with Marshadow and can't even KO it with Icicle Crash or Knock Off. Overall, Ice has a rather shallow pool of possible Marshadow checks, but I can't be certain whether something extremely niche like Choice Scarf Alolan Ninetales will be a forseeable adaptation for Ice teams.

Rock: Similarly to Ice, Rock has a shallow pool of checks for Marshadow. Rhyperior is normally the first choice that comes to mind as a solid defensive check. Another obvious note is that Mega Aerodactyl's usage will surely go up, since it's one of the few unboosted Pokemon in the metagame that can actually outspeed Marshadow. A less likely adaptation would be Dazzling Gleam on Life Orb/Specs Nihilego or Zen Headbutt on Choice Band Terrakion, since they can both outspeed and potentially KO Marshadow after Shuckle's Sticky Web has been set.

Normal: I feel like when Marshadow comes out, HO Normal will see a lot more limelight, since Life Orb/Choice Band Marshadow can completely tear through balance builds that don't have Choice Scarf Meloetta.

Those 3 are the only types that I could immediately think of that heavily struggled against Marshadow that either weren't brought up earlier in the thread or I wanted to expand upon. Let me know what you guys think about Marshadow's large influence on these matchups and what potential checks certain types may be forced to run.
 
I don't follow how Marshadow will swing Ghost vs Fighting in Fighting's favor. Fighting has no Marshadow switch ins either, Ghost still has 3 reliable checks (Mimikyu, Mega Sableye, Doublade), and Ghost will still wall the other 5/6 fighting pokemon easily.

I also don't get why Marshadow's presence would make H.O. Normal MORE viable, since it is extremely poorly equipped to manage Marshadow. Smeargle can't get webs up against Mega Sableye, so Marshadow is outspeeding and KOing everything besides your scarf revenge killers. Scarf Marshadow literally 6-0s.

Also think you're overstating how badly Marshadow threatens balance Normal: Normal teams have a healthy supply of options for dealing with Marsh. Scarf Meloetta is already a decent set for balance that checks Marshadow and generates momentum and between that and Diggersby Normal can put a lot of offensive pressure on Ghost. Defensive Staraptor can also switch in on Marshadow if rocks aren't up, and Porygon2 can tank a close combat and check with para or foul play (depending on defense drops). In addition, a Normal player can make use of Ditto to revenge kill Marshadow or switch into Fighting-type attacks if you're feeling gutsy. Normal has plenty of counterplay to Marshadow, as far I can tell.
 
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First off, I don't follow how Marshadow will swing Ghost vs Fighting in Fighting's favor. Fighting has no Marshadow switch ins either, Ghost still has 3 reliable checks (Mimikyu, Mega Sableye, Doublade), and Ghost will still wall the other 5/6 fighting pokemon easily.

Second off, I don't understand why Marshadow's presence would make H.O. Normal MORE viable, since it is extremely poorly equipped to manage Marshadow. Smeargle can't get webs up against Mega Sableye, so Marshadow is outspeeding and KOing everything besides your scarf revenge killers. Scarf Marshadow literally 6-0s.

Third Off, you're overstating how badly Marshadow threatens balance Normal: Normal teams have a healthy supply of options for dealing with Marsh. Scarf Meloetta is already a decent set for balance that checks Marshadow and generates momentum and between that and Diggersby Normal can put a lot of offensive pressure on Ghost. Defensive Staraptor can also switch in on Marshadow if rocks aren't up, and Porygon2 can tank a close combat and check with para or foul play (depending on defense drops). In addition, a Normal player can make use of Ditto to revenge kill Marshadow or switch into Fighting-type attacks if you're feeling gutsy. Normal has plenty of counterplay to Marshadow, as far I can tell.
I never specifically said that Marshadow would swing the matchup in Fighting's favor, I said that it would heavily benefit the matchup. I was also referring to Fighting teams during most of that post, which I probably should have made more clear from the beginning, and if the Smeargle is by chance carrying Magic Coat, it can effectively get up Sticky Web if predicted correctly. I do agree with the fact that balanced Normal has a lot of potential options for dealing with Marshadow that I missed, thanks for bringing those up.
 

With Marshadow coming out really soon, I'd like to address some things that have been said about it.

Marshadow does pack an extremely good offensive typing that puts pressure on numerous types. It also has a good 125 Attack to go with a very fast 125 Speed, and it packs very good coverage that limit its switch-ins. Technician does boost its already good priority move in Shadow Sneak (but that's about the only relevant move it gets boosted by the ability). People are merely focusing on Marshadow vs. the Psychic matchup and how it can seem overwhelming to Psychic due to the previous points, but Marshadow doesn't seem unlike any speedy wallbreaker currently in the metagame.

"Marshadow is too overwhelming for Psychic to handle it."
While this may seem true, Marshadow doesn't bring much new to the table. Teams with Marshadow are MUCH more favored to win against Psychic than teams without it, but there are a few things to take note of here.

Marshadow is not the only Pokémon that puts pressure on Psychic team by virtue of having no switch-ins to its moves while being very fast. Sharpedo-Mega is a very similar Pokémon in this regard. Psychic has absolutely zero viable counters to Sharpedo-Mega, and there are very limited checks that often involve specific EVs or sets. Marshadow is the same deal; it has no counters but a few, albeit limited, checks (such as the aforementioned Scarf Meloetta as well as Focus Sash Alakazam.)

After Stealth Rock, Choice Scarf Victini has an 87% to OHKO Marshadow with V-Create. Granted, it can only survive Shadow Sneak if Rocks aren't up on the other side of the field. Other soft checks include Defensive Jirachi, who is capable of either Paralyzing Marshadow or denting it with Zen Headbutt. Defensive Mew can also Will-o-Wisp it after living a Spectral Thief from it. Regular Meloetta also always lives a Life Orb Close Combat from Marshadow. Mega Slowbro avoids the 2HKO from Marshadow 75% of the time without Stealth Rock and can either dent it with Psyshock or have a good chance to burn it with Scald. The point I am overall trying to make here is that Marshadow threatens Psychic heavily thanks to its powerful STAB and Priority as well as its Speed, to the point where Psychic has no counters. However, Psychic still has ways to win against Marshadow teams, in the same way they have ways to win against Sharpedo-Mega teams, even though both have a near unmatched combo of Attack + Speed.

Marshadow being weak to Psychic itself opens the window for a lot of revenge killers. If it is Choice Banded, which I personally don't think is the best set on it but that's a topic for another day, the window is opened even more. Marshadow is a very positive factor against Electric, Dark, Ground, and Steel. In my opinion though, when you extend past the controversial Psychic matchup, all that's left is a few types where Marshadow is merely a good wincon in, since they all have common, already-used checks for Marshadow (Choice Band Excadrill OHKOes it, and Electric has things like Band/Specs Tapu Koko, and Rotom-W which can all efficiently check Marshadow. Dark has two solid checks in Mega Sableye and Mandibuzz, who can dent it with Will-o-Wisp and Foul Play respectively. Steel can check it with Skarmory which always OHKOes with Brave Bird) Here are a few calcs to show.

Defensive
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 295-348 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 332-392 (103.4 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 320-378 (99.6 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 344-408 (107.1 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 333-393 (103.7 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Well, before Marshadow speculation gets out of hand, I was wondering what peoples thoughts on Mega Swampert are?



It's undoubtedly an asset to swift swim teams, but honestly it hasn't been as gamechanging for the playstyle as I'd hoped. It's an upgrade to Seismitoad of course and the bulk is nice for checking opposing offensive threats, but I feel like the opportunity cost of Mega Sharpedo is really unpleasant. While water has generally "decent" matchups, I feel it's biggest niche this gen has always been c-teaming psychic, and dropping MegaPedo costs you that.

Maybe Mega Swampert gives you the best broad matchups in the metagame but is it really mandatory for SS teams right now?
 
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Despite Tyke trying to change the conversation, I'm still going to post these checks because it took me 2 days to find them all, I'm not letting that work go to waste >_>.

I'll give my own 2 cents tho, I personally feel like mega-pert is standard on water teams, but not albeit needed. Like SS water isn't going to get swept because Mega-swampert isn't on it, meg-sharpedo is still a good alternative but I think that it will likely come up to the type of team it is and the preference of the player. Each mon clearly has matchups it helps in like sharpedo for ghost and fighting and swampert for electric, but I feel like the coverage of the team will determine which mega a water user will use.

...

But now onto more checks for marshadow, and I tried to cover more types than before.

For the calcs: Bold is good, not bold means bad/substandard, Red is attacking, Blue is defending


Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt

Scarf Victini can outspeed non-scarf marshadow and survive a shadow sneak if no rocks are down. V-create has a very good chance of killing after taking the hit tho, similar to how scarfnape can kill magearna. However, when against fighting one may not want to risk their wincon to kill marshadow, but as Tyke said above, killing marshadow will help you greatly. Vs Ghost however, victini might only be used to scare the marshadow out. This is a situational check as rocks make victini die to shadow sneak, but it might put some pressure on the stealth rocker on ghost/fighting.

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 295-348 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 250-296 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

Not going to lie I was surprised that Charizard-X could revenge kill but it still cannot switch in. Also if it gets slow pivoted in or is put in to scare, it will not be put in kill range of lo marshadow just yet. It can take a hit except for the Z-move at full, which makes it once again a situational check. However since this is a common set on fire, it might be worth noting. Also it should be noted that this is a lower chance to kill than victini, so consider your choices. Also there is no question that after a DD charizard will destroy marshadow, but we will assume you have just sent it in for now.

252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 283-334 (95.2 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 307-363 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO <- outrage does same damage.
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 172-203 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 114-136 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


WARNING: POTENTIALLY UNHEALTHY CHECK AHEAD!!


Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power

This is literally made to deal with marshadow, and is likely not a healthy check as it is not versatile otherwise. Specs eruption/Fire Blast OHKO marshadow and it can take all of marshes moves once and only once, including rock tomb. However if rocks are not down, it can potentially switch into an lo spectral thief, and take another one and still kill Marsh.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 322-381 (100.3 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO <- Fire blast does same damage
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcanion: 157-187 (43.2 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcanion: 211-250 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- Close combat does same damage

252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcanion: 262-310 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcanion: 82-97 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 27.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Volcanion: 107-126 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 7.4% chance to 3HKO


Seriously though, don't use this if you want a healthy fire team that can deal with marshadow.

s/o to KevinELF for finding this one for me.


Sharpedo-Mega @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs
- Waterfall
- Protect

With +1 speed after a protect, sharpedo will literally outspeed non-scarfed marshadow and proceed to kill it with psychic fangs. It's literally that simple. Since spectral thief does not break protections (thank goodness) we don't have to worry about marshadow stealing boosts either.

252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 352-416 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo-Mega: 125-147 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo-Mega: 82-97 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 8% chance to 3HKO


We already talked about toxapex so I might as well go with another stall mon.


Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Def / 192 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Scald
- Protect
- Mirror Coat / Knock off

This nasty staple on stall water does a nice job of walling marshadow pretty well, which means stall water can still deal with this new metagame shifter, as alomomola is capable of switching into marshadow and use the wish protect combo to stall it down. Along with this it can occasionally scald it to get that 30% burn chance on it OR knock off its item (unless it is Z-move shadow).

252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery <- you should not switch into this set in particular, but you can still take the hit if you are full.
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 207-243 (42.5 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 258-304 (52.9 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery <- watch this nuke
252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 64 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 118-141 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery



Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower

Belly Drum will not have enough health to set up on marshadow unless it is normalium Z. This is still the safer option though as shadow sneak has a 13% chance of killing a 50% health Azu. Choice band can also still fit onto swift swim builds which are currently still popular, and may stay popular when marshadow comes out, as well as being able to fit on other kinds of water teams with the exception of stall. This is a mon that is clearly unfazed by a new threat to the metagame.

252+ Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 246-290 (67.7 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 644-762 (200.6 - 237.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow in Rain: 432-508 (134.5 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 288-339 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO <- I wouldn't try this.


Honorable mention:
Greninja - Has a good chance of Killing non-jolly marshadows with extrasensory w/ lo
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow: 315-374 (98.1 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
It's not worth going into detail tho because Greninja gets killed by jolly which may be more common for this reason.


Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock

Hey its that sand setter everyone loves on ground, it can also wall marshadow quite well as it can soak physical hits and take ice punch very well. The same goes for HP ice on mixed sets. It can only switch into its physical moves though, as HP ice has a 36% chance to 2HKO. When it is on the field, hippowdon can chip marshadow down with earthquake and whirlwind it out as well as stall on it with slack off.

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 203-239 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 160-188 (38 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 144-169 (44.8 - 52.6%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage


Dang son that's about it, most of the other mons get OHKO'd by cc or a coverage move.

Honorable mention:
Excadrill -
Jolly Sand Rush Excadrill with a choice band will OHKO marshadow and outspeed even scarfed variants.
However, getting excadrill in the fight requires a sack, as attempting to pivot in might result in excadrill getting killed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 333-393 (103.7 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

We already talked about Tapu koko, and guess what, that's about it lol.

Honorable Mention:
Rotom-wash - Can take one attack before dying if it is not thrown into an attack, can leave a burn and that's the most it can do.
252+ Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 187-222 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I touched on venusaur-mega before so I don't think its needed for me to cover it again.
However...


Tapu Bulu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Megahorn

Tapu Bulu is a real help to grass, and once again it proves its use. Scarfed woodhammer kills instantly under grassy terrain with no risk other then recoil damage. It obviously cannot switch in, but it can scare away marshadow because of its pure power, it is also faster than non-scarfed variants which is definately nice.

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow in Grassy Terrain: 355-418 (110.5 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 121-144 (43 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery <- this is what scafed ice punch does.

scarfed melo and and possibly sashed deo-speed can help make the matchup against fighting easier for psychic, its already been discussed though so no need to put it here. For ghost on the other hand sashed alakazam can help.

Absolutely Nothing.

Rhyperior has been touched on before so I guess all I really need are calcs
16+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 289-342 (90 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO <- guarenteed after +2 on WP
252+ Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 252-297 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- no defense EV's lol


Fighting v rock wasn't good anyway, ghost v rock might become a problematic thing though if rhyperior is wasted/sacked.

Tapu Koko and Bulu have been talked about and so has magearna, the only thing I could talk about is Modest scarfed togekiss but that is literally self-explanitory.

Toxapex and mega-venu have been talked about.

Crobat has a 31% chance of outspeeding and OHKOing marshadow so that is nice.
0 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 288-338 (89.7 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
That is with utility tho, which crobat is usually used for on poison teams.

Dragalge can also OHKO Marshadow with draco meteor, but that would mean that it has not already used draco meteor beforehand.
252+ SpA Draco Plate Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 334-394 (104 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It also lives an Ice punch but only once, after that it gets shadow sneaked or punched again and dies.
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 226-268 (68.9 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Skarmory and magearna have been talked about.

Honorable mention?:
Steelix-mega
- This tank can actually live a close combat to the face and have a very good chance at killing it back with gyro ball.
252+ Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 315-372 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 237-281 (81.4 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However that is with jolly lo, banded will kill no doubt.

Tyke already talked about mega-sableye and mega-sharpedo was also already discussed in the water tab.
However...


Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn

I swear I remember talking to someone about how mandibuzz gets broken by marshadow, but I found through calcs that mandibuzz can actually still have a chance at checking some marshadow sets. In this case mandibuzz can safely switch into Z-move marshadow no matter what as it is a guarenteed 3HKO on it with lefties (unless you get critted). However if rocks are down mandibuzz will get 2hko'd, but because mega-sableye exists, dark might actually be able to prevent rocks from getting on their side of the field. Anyhow, this mandibuzz set has EV's in speed because of azumarill, but this shows that you don't need extra defense Ev's to check marshadow anyway. Foul play does work on marshadow thanks to its typing and power, and mandibuzz can roost on some sets and still apply damage later. This is helped even more if you switch into a CC, as the dropped defenses will allow Mandibuzz to deal more damage to it.

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 183-216 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- Lo Damage
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 183-216 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- Z-move damage
+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 271-321 (84.4 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO <- Choice band damage

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 201-237 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 202-238 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 146-174 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 177-208 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 190-226 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 191-226 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 161-190 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I would do more but I have to return my computer soon so this is all for now. Once again I am open to hear new suggestion even though I may not see them instantly. Thank you if you read all of this.
Just to comment on some of these:

Fire: Ghost teams have very few issues setting up Stealth Rock, since Alolan Marowak can very easily set them up vs Torkoal, and Ghost teams will also have no issues removing them, since the only way they can is with Mega Charizard Y's Defog. And Fighting teams can wear down Torkoal pretty well between Scarf Terrakion and Specs Keldeo, and Marshadow can even come in as a spinblocker and remove Torkoal if it has been weakened sufficiently enough. Because of this, Victini will hardly ever be finding the opportunity to effectively check Marshadow. Outside of these, a potential honorable mention could include Infernape, who has a slight chance of OHKOing with Flare Blitz in the sun.

Water: Just to add on to these, you could have mentioned Intimidate Flyinium Z Gyarados in the honorable mention section, since it can live a -1 Life Orb Rock Tomb even after Stealth Rock and KO back with a Supersonic Skystrike. There's also Kingdra, but only in rain. Mega Swampert is yet another choice, but it would have to be Adamant to even have a chance of KOing with a rain boosted Waterfall, so perhaps Seismitoad would work as a better example.

Rock: As I mentioned in my earlier post, Mega Aerodactyl is another check that you could use. There are also the unhealthy and situational checks like Dazzling Gleam Nihilego and Zen Headbutt Terrakion, but those would only outspeed if Sticky Web was up, which Rock has a difficult time getting up against Ghost with Mega Sableye in the way.

Poison: Dragalge isn't even relevant on Poison teams, so I don't really see the point of mentioning that as a potential check. I do agree with Crobat, Toxapex, and Mega Venusaur though.

Steel: Mega Steelix is rather irrelevant on Steel teams, and even when Marshadow arrives, Mega Scizor will still be Steel's best Mega. I'm assuming you weren't bringing it up because of Technician HP Fire, which not only 2HKOes bulky Mega Scizor, but it also 2HKOes Skarmory, so that's a bit confusing.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
This thread is the "Monotype Metagame Discussion" thread. Theorymons is not acceptable. I didn't mind the discussion of unreleased Mega Evolutions and the early discussion of Marshadow because they didn't dig in deep and start theorymonning. Very shallow, top-level discussion is fine when there's not a more pertinent topic. When you're talking about whether it's "too good" in individual matchups or "easily checked" and talking about its future impact on the metagame as if it's already released and being used, that's too far. We're moving on from Marshadow and all further posts on Marshadow before it's released will be deleted. Marshadow is literally not currently part of the Monotype metagame.

While I don't really care too much about Mega Swampert, I do want to bring up Water in the current metagame. I think it's generally accepted that Water isn't an amazing type in SM, so I find it very interesting that Water was used so much in the recent MPL. I personally think rain Water is rather terrible, but balance Water isn't much better to me. It has a handful of good matchups and uses, but I was definitely very surprised to see it played so often. For me, the fear of Fairy leads me to rarely use Water in favor of more reliable and consistent types.

What do you all think about Water's viability right now and how it handles its crippling weakness to Tapu Bulu and, to a much lesser extent, Tapu Koko? As a follow-up question, any thoughts on the surprisingly high usage of Dragon and Dark, which are also quite good but have a very difficult matchup that makes them less appealing to use? I'm pretty happy we got to see almost all of the types get used at least once this tournament, which I think is a sign that SM Monotype's in a good state right now.
 
With the conclusion of MPL, I've compiled a complete usage statistics for MPL3. The spreadsheet features each type organized by meta, the number of times used, and the number of times the type has won. The spreadsheet can be found here.

As a quick tl;dr
BW
Most used type was dragon.
Type with the highest win rate of types used >10% of the time was steel.

ORAS
Most used type was psychic.
Type with the highest win rate of types used >9% of the time was flying (9% rather than 10% because only two types were used >10% of the time).

SM Pre-MMedi Ban
Most used type was psychic.
Type with the highest win rate of types used >10% of the time was psychic.

SM Post-MMedi Ban
Most used type was water.
Type with the highest win rate of types used >10% of the time was fairy.

SM is split into pre and post ban due to Mega Medicham's huge impact on the metagame, and it being present for the first four weeks of MPL.
 

Harpp

formerly Alpha-Harpreet
This thread is the "Monotype Metagame Discussion" thread. Theorymons is not acceptable. I didn't mind the discussion of unreleased Mega Evolutions and the early discussion of Marshadow because they didn't dig in deep and start theorymonning. Very shallow, top-level discussion is fine when there's not a more pertinent topic. When you're talking about whether it's "too good" in individual matchups or "easily checked" and talking about its future impact on the metagame as if it's already released and being used, that's too far. We're moving on from Marshadow and all further posts on Marshadow before it's released will be deleted. Marshadow is literally not currently part of the Monotype metagame.

While I don't really care too much about Mega Swampert, I do want to bring up Water in the current metagame. I think it's generally accepted that Water isn't an amazing type in SM, so I find it very interesting that Water was used so much in the recent MPL. I personally think rain Water is rather terrible, but balance Water isn't much better to me. It has a handful of good matchups and uses, but I was definitely very surprised to see it played so often. For me, the fear of Fairy leads me to rarely use Water in favor of more reliable and consistent types.

What do you all think about Water's viability right now and how it handles its crippling weakness to Tapu Bulu and, to a much lesser extent, Tapu Koko? As a follow-up question, any thoughts on the surprisingly high usage of Dragon and Dark, which are also quite good but have a very difficult matchup that makes them less appealing to use? I'm pretty happy we got to see almost all of the types get used at least once this tournament, which I think is a sign that SM Monotype's in a good state right now.
Water is not that bad in this metagame, surely it has hard time against fairy due to the presence of tapu bulu and tapu koko which makes the match up difficult. However the reason I think water was used a lot is because it has great defensive cores when talking about balance teams which puts in a lot of work vs other types and it has decent match ups all around owing to the fact that water is a good offensive typing and it has some good attackers in Gyarados, Azumarill,Greninja,Keldeo,Mega sharpedo which threaten a lot of types on its own.
Analysis
Water teams have huge weakness to tapu bulu as banded tapu bulu can just get a kill everytime it comes in and water teams are also weak to tapu koko which puts a lot of pressure to preserve the electric immunity on the team. Water on the other hand has handful of checks to tapu bulu:
1. Tapu Bulu:

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge /Zen Headbutt
- Superpower
- Horn Leech
1.Gyarados

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
Gyarados can check banded tapu bulu with Flyinium Z as it is a guaranteed ohko:
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 450-530 (160.1 - 188.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However gyarados cant switch into banded bulu.
2.Greninja:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
Greninja checks tapu bulu as it can ohko it with either ice beam or gunk shot
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 343-406 (122 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 567-676 (201.7 - 240.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3.Tentacruel:

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb
- Toxic Spikes
Tentacruel surprisingly can check tapu bulu, it is something I have used in my mono water teams with good success to catch tapu bulu. Tentcruel with 56 spe evs(250) outspeed banded adamant tapu bulu( 249 speed) and can ohko with sludge bomb.
0 SpA Tentacruel Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 336-400 (119.5 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4. Volcanion:

Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Steam Eruption
- Sludge Wave
- Rock Slide
Volcanion can check tapu bulu as it straight away one shots tapu bulu with either fire blast or sludge wave.
216 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 368-434 (130.9 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216 SpA Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 424-500 (150.8 - 177.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
5. Pelipper:

Pelipper @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
These were some of the offensive checks to tapu bulu.
Scarf tapu bulu which has seen some usage in tours is also very threatening to mono water teams as it gets past it usual offensive checks.

6.Swampert-Mega

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 228 Atk / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Waterfall
- Sludge Wave
Mega swampert is a good lure to tapu bulu as it can ohko tapu bulu with sludge wave as it will outspeed tapu bulu in rain:
28 SpA Swampert-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2. Tapu koko:

Tapu Koko @ Magnet
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- U-turn
[fairy pivot set]
Tapu koko is handled by the electric immunity that water has in the form of:
1. Lanturn:

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Toxic
- Heal Bell
Lanturn walls tapu koko due to its ability volt absorb and can switch in on tapu koko with impunity and can either put it on timer with toxic or damage it with scald if it stays in.
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 91-108 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 62-74 (15.4 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. Swampert:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Roar
Swampert also checks tapu koko fairly well due to its ground immunity and it has decent chance to ohko if koko stays in:
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
However swampert must be wary of grass knot:
252 SpA Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 304-360 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Swampert Mega:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock
Mega swampert outspeeds and one shots tapu koko in rain with its stab earthquake.
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 414-488 (147.3 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However here again it should be cautious of grass knot.
3. Seismitoad:

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Stealth Rock
Here similar to mega swampert, sesimitoad in rain also checks tapu koko easily as it outspeeds and kills with earth power:
252 SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 367-432 (130.6 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4. Quagsire:

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Scald
Quagsire though not commonly found on mono water teams( found on stall builds) can check tapu koko as well with earthquake.
However like every water/ground type it should be wary of grass knot.
While offensively tapu koko can be handled by scarf greninja as it can ohko with gunkshot.

Lets go through some of the other threats to water teams and how water deals with it.
1. Mega venusaur:

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 28 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis
Mega venusaur is a threat as it can threaten the both defensive and offensive cores on mono water teams. Its good bulk, access to recovery moves in leech seed and synthesis makes it harder to take down.
1.Gyarados

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce
Flyinium z gyarados is not only a good set up sweeper but it also checks threats to water such as tapu bulu,breloom and mega venusaur.
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 326-386 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 96-114 (29 - 34.4%) -- 3.6% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 115-136 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
2.Pelipper:

Pelipper @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
252 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 242-288 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pelipper can effectively 2hko mega venusaur with stab hurricane and can defeat Mega venusaur 1v1.
3. Mega Sharpedo:

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs
- Waterfall
- Protect
Mega sharpedo can check mega venusaur once it is weakened as then mega sharpedo can pick it off using psychic fang as psychic fangs from mega sharpedo are a guaranteed 2hko on mega venusaur:
252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 188-222 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4. Greninja:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
Greninja checks mega venusaur with a combination of gunk shot and extrasensory however it has to be wary of muk-alola switching in when facing mono poison teams:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 242-289 (66.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

5. Manaphy:

Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Rain Dance
- Psychic
- Scald
Tail glow manaphy also checks mega venusaur fairly easily as it has great 100/100/100 bulk which lets it set up tail glow easily and take out mega venusaur with psychic. It puts a lot of work vs poison teams as well.
Mega Venusaur is also hard walled on water by Toxapex and mantine:
6.Toxapex:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze

7.Mantine:

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald /Air Slash
- Toxic
- Defog
- Roost

2. Magearna:
Magearna due to its high nautral bulk and variety of sets is a threat to mono water teams.

1.Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 200 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon

2.Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon

3.Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shift Gear
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt

4.Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Trick Room
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

5.Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Thunderbolt

Magearna is a much bigger threat than tapu bulu because usually what checks magearna on water loses to other variation of magearna set. for example: Keldeo checks specs magearna with some prior damage:
1.Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Scald
Calculations:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 237-280 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
However it loses to AV magearna and TR Magearna:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 159-187 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 510-600 (157.8 - 185.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Same for Greninja:
2.Greninja:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
it 2hkoes magearna with hp fire however it is beaten by AV set 1v1:
Calculations:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-156 (37.8 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 686-810 (240.7 - 284.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3.Volcanion:

Volcanion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Steam Eruption
- Sludge Wave
- Rock Slide
Volcanion OHKOs with fire blast:
216 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4.Swampert:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Roar
Or
Swampert Mega:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock
Swampert can check magearna as it can make it weak enough for a teammate to finish it off easily however specs set of magearna can beat swampert 1v1.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 206-246 (58.1 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 356-420 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega swampert can ohko magearna with earthquake however it loses to trick room set:
252+ SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
This is the case with most types as magearna has like 5 viable sets and so things which checks magearna on water loses to other variations of its sets. That's magearna for you.

3. Mega Charizard Y:
Mega charizard is a threat to mono water teams as it has drought which weakens water type moves and it can shred apart water teams with its solarbeam

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost
1.Toxapex:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
Toxapex easily counters Mega charizard Y for mono water teams as it can easily sponge solarbeam due to neutrality to grass type moves and a high bulk along with regenerator and access to recover.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 85-101 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sun: 88-104 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO
Then toxapex can cripple Mega charizard Y with toxic and stall it out with recover.
2. Mantine:

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Defog
- Roost
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 105-124 (28 - 33.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 102-121 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- 61% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Easily walled by mantine.
Then there are some offensive checks like Mega sharpedo which can ohko with some prior damage and scarf volcanion which ohkos with rock slide. Specs keldeo which dents Mega charizard Y,killing it if it is weakened.

Conclusion:
These were some of the threats to water teams and how water handles it, lets take a look now at some of the types that water has good match up against:
1. Psychic:Mono psychic teams are threatened by Mega sharpedo,Mega Gyarados and Greninja which puts a lot of pressure on psychic teams in Water vs Psychic match up.
2.Ground: Water has good match up vs ground due to the obvious type advantage over it.
3.Ghost: Mono water teams yet again have good match up vs ghost teams as Mega Sharpedo,Greninja,Mega Gyarados all put a lot of pressure on ghost teams can take out majority of pokemon on ghost mono.
4.Dark: Water has good match up vs mono dark teams because water generally runs either tapu fini or azumarill which put a lot of work vs dark match up. The match up is more lopsided if water team is running keldeo.
so to sum it up: water handles things that beats it fairly well while also being able to have decent match ups vs other types such as Bug,Flying,Dragon,Poison etc.
(S/O to Izaya for help, thanks!)
 
Last edited:

roman

i could be ur supermodel
is a Tiering Contributor
i could see mega cammy being pretty useful. it's super fat and capable of taking down really annoying stuff like celes and even stomaching a hit from scarf bulu if you can pressure clef from setting rocks with bandexca

probably overselling it through since that speed is really depressing and its spa isn't that great either
 
I definitely agree in the fact that neither of these megas will be particularly relevant at all. I'll start with Mega Banette:



It should be rather obvious why Mega Banette will see next to no relevance on Ghost teams. Mega Sableye is simply too important for Ghost teams to pass up, and by foregoing Mega Sableye, you end up losing not only a Dark switch in, but a consistent form of hazard prevention and an incredible utility option. Due to the Prankster nerf in Gen 7, Mega Banette's only use in the Dark matchup will be as a suicide mon with Destiny Bond, which isn't very helpful in comparison to Mega Sableye being able to Will-O-Wisp and cripple Tyranitar, Alolan Muk, and Bisharp. So as Darklatias92 said, Mega Sableye will always be preferred over Mega Banette.



I tried testing with Mega Camerupt for a bit, hoping that it would be a nice asset for Ground teams due to easily tearing through threats like Celesteela and Ferrothorn, while also aiding in the Grass and Ice matchups. However, Mega Camerupt just isn't all that great. Landorus and Nidoking perform the special wallbreaking role far better due to aiding in the same Grass and Steel matchups, while also having decent to beneficial speed tiers(Nidoking being decent and Landorus being beneficial) and offering a lot of further coverage, with Nidoking having access to strong Poison STAB to check Clefable and Azumarill, as well as Ice Beam and even Thunderbolt in order to get past Mantine. Landorus has the same Poison coverage in Sludge Wave, while also checking Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona with Rock Slide and having Focus Blast to nail the Steel types that it isn't able to hit with Earth Power. Mega Camerupt definitely still has its desirable traits in its Fire STAB, Grass and Ice neutralities, and good bulk. But that piss poor Speed tier holds it back so much. Mega Steelix and/or Mega Garchomp are better uses of the Mega slot on Ground teams anyway, with Mega Steelix opening a moveslot for Hippowdon while also being able to switch into Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu, and Mega Garchomp being a decent wallbreaker under sand. I won't go too in-detail about how it'll stand on Fire teams, since it's obvious that the Mega Charizards will always be preferred over it. The only way it could particularly fit on a Fire team is if it's TR Fire with Chandelure and Victini, but even that's more of a meme build.​
 
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