Metagame SM Monotype Suspect #2: Magearna

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Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#1

Welcome to the long-awaited second SM Monotype suspect! Ever since Pokemon Sun and Moon began, Magearna has been one of the most controversial releases relevant to Monotype. Its omnipresent presence on two of the best and most commonly used types has enabled it to have an almost unparalleled presence in the current metagame and is one of the biggest threats to most teams right now.

On the surface, Magearna seems to have quite a stacked deck. It has great base Special Attack and one of the most versatile movepools around, which includes STAB moves in Fleur Cannon and Flash Cannon, impeccable BoltBeam coverage along with Aura Sphere and Focus Blast, and even Volt Switch. This combines with its range of setup options in Calm Mind, Trick Room, and Shift Gear, and that's not even mentioning the snowball effect of Soul-Heart. Thanks to one of the best available defensive typings in Steel / Fairy and its impressive 80 / 115 / 115 bulk, Magearna is very capable of setting up even multiple times a game and is difficult to outright KO. Its great offensive and defensive ability also means that it can take on many roles outside of simply being a sweeper, able to use Choice Specs to be an incredible wallbreaker and Assault Vest to act as a bulky pivot. It's one of the few Pokemon that can not only outright sweep an offense team on its own but also tear holes right through balance teams. This range of sets makes Magearna very unpredictable and means it fits on every team that it is legal on, able to fulfill whatever role the team needs most. Even when Magearna is checked or even revenge killed, it's almost impossible to bring in its checks safely, meaning that it has often already done irreparable damage to a team.

However, many of Magearna's advantages are not easy to fully actualize. Its versatility is particularly illusive, as it suffers from four-moveslot syndrome and is almost always forced to run the same coverage moves to maximize its ability, meaning most sets can be checked by very similar Pokemon. Sweeper sets rely heavily on a Z-Move to get a beginning Soul-Heart boost, as it has initial trouble with walls. This combined with Fleur Cannon weakening in power over each use makes Magearna's sweeping plan fairly predictable. Magearna's Speed is also rather terrible before it sets up Shift Gear or Trick Room and makes it very easy to weaken or take out before it can get going; even after setting up, its base Speed continues to plague it, as weather sweepers like Excadrill and Choice Scarf users like Keldeo and Greninja are still able to outspeed and revenge kill it. Many of the teams that cannot easily deal with Magearna are either inherently weak to begin with or have other internal teambuilding choices that Magearna takes advantage of, which is why its effect on Dragon and Fighting differs from its effect on Dark. Most types that aren't weak to Magearna's Fleur Cannon are in fact quite capable of defensively checking or outright countering it before Soul-Heart gets out of control or using a naturally bulky Pokemon like Victini or Volcarona that can easily take many of its weaker coverage attacks.

Magearna exhibits many of the qualities one could expect from a broken Pokemon, but it's difficult to gauge whether it is indeed significantly more powerful than and a cut above the rest, as the SM metagame has never been without it. In order to determine the true extent of its influence and whether or not it should continue to be legal, the Monotype council has voted to suspect Magearna.

In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the Monotype suspect ladder in which Magearna is not allowed. The requirements for qualification are 2900 COIL or more in 70 games or fewer. The B-value for this suspect test is 10.0. The suspect test will last two weeks, until Friday August 11 at 11:59 PM EDT (GMT-4) . You will then have three days to cast your vote, until Monday August 14 at 11:59 PM EDT (GMT-4). Magearna will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Magearna suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss either the suspect system, other future suspects, or topics generally unrelated to this suspect, such as unrelated and inapplicable parts of the tiering philosophy.

Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules.

To earn 2900 COIL, you must have at least a certain GXE corresponding to the number of games you have played:
Code:
GXE | Games
90      33
88      36
86      39
84      48
83      52
82      57
81      63
80.5    67
----------
80      71
This means if your final GXE is 80 or lower when you hit 70 games, you will not have 2900 COIL and will not have met the requirements.

To calculate for yourself the required number of games for any given GXE, compute:
N=10.0/log2(40*GXE/2900)

Tagging The Immortal to set up the suspect ladder. Thank you!
 
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Stargazed*Melo

formerly Alliance*Stargazed
#4
Honestly this is gonna change the meta for monotype so greatly right now. Being an avid fairy player im gonna like to see what goes on with this. The steel game can be so hard right now so losing magearna for fairy wont be a huge loss it will be bad as I really enjoy using magearna it gives fairy a tad easier time with Lando I and it helps vs poison a lot. But for steel it can set up TR or set up a shift gear late game and clean things up paired with celesteela its really annoying.
 
#5
I've been an avid supporter of the Mage Ban since day one. I know it's easy to counter if you have the right mons, which makes it fine in standard play, but the fact is that Magearna shuts down and blows through entire types on its own. To be frank, the bigger issue here is the Fairy typing, and what that adds to Steel. Dragon tends to lose to Fairy 99% of the time anyways, but against Steel, it's always been more of an even matchup. But now it's practically a foregone conclusion that Steel will win if it has Mage. The only way to get past Magearna most of the time seems to be to jump through hoops, usually via sacking off a mon just to get in a clean switch for something that probably still won't be able to KO it if it's at full health (only Banded Dragonite and Focus Sash Garchomp come to mind for Dragons that can do anything to Mage, especially after it sets up, and only if it has taken prior chip damage). And that's to say nothing for what Mage does to Fighting and Dark; Fighting can at least put up something resembling resistance with Infernape and the like, but it still gets demolished, and entire Dark teams are destroyed simply by being in the PRESENCE of Mage (I understand that Assault Vest Alolan-Muk with Fire Blast is a decent switch in to Mage, but no one will leave Mage in against that, and once Muk goes down Mage has free reign). If a team has Magearna on it, it practically instawins against any of these three types: if Mage somehow doesn't sweep the whole team on its own, it'll punch so many holes that the opponent won't be able to recover. For Fairy, it's whatever, it probably wins regardless. For Steel, having a single mon that ensures victory over such a huge section of the meta isn't okay. Hell, practically no one uses Dark or Fighting anymore, and while I'm sure the Tapus have something to do with that, I know from experience that the biggest contributing factor to it is fear of a certain ball-shaped bunny robot.

And yes, even Fairy benefits absurdly from Magearna's presence: not so much for its offensive strength (although that's certainly still a factor) but moreso for it's defensive strength. Steel/Fairy provides an immunity to one of Fairy's only two weaknesses, and a neutrality to the other. This wasn't so much a problem when Fairy's only Steel mon was Klefki, a mon who's only use is being a screen/hazard setter, who's relatively frail without the aid of its screens, slow without Prankster, and has no offensive presence to speak of. But when you slap that typing onto a mon with 80/115/115 defenses and the potential for such absurdly strong offense (and add in the fact that Mage is usually run alongside Klefki on Fairy), it becomes ridiculous. True Nidoking can counter Mage on Poison (it's the ONLY thing that can counter Mage on Poison, except for Salazzle sort of), but that's really only if the opponent stays in on it for whatever dumb reason. Forcing Mage to switch is a plus, yes, but you're not getting rid of the problem, only stalling it. And Nidoking isn't the bulkiest thing out there, so keeping it alive to deal with Mage throughout the game is easier said than done.

Long story short, Magearna on Steel is absolutely disgusting, and causes every single player to run something that can handle it for the fear of coming across it. Assuming they even can, because Mage shuts down entire types that would at least have a chance against Steel otherwise. Magearna on Fairy is less of an issue simply because most of the types it shuts down are beaten by Fairy as a whole anyways, but on top of the sheer power the Tapus already provide, its presence is like the straw that broke the camel's back.
 
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#6
Magearna is THE most used mon on high ladder it is on the undisputedly the 2 best types. Fairy give it amazing support with klefki screens and tapu bulu grassy terrain giving magearna recovery and making ground moves deal half damage. That means it's only effectively weak to fire so it's taking neutral to fire after screens and 0.5x damage (or weaker) on every other type with a 80/115/155 bulk isn't that insane. Steel also has amazing support but in a different way it has a nice defensive core that take the super effective hits like heatran skarmory/celesteela but let's say you are choiced locked and your heatran dies to a fighting move what easily comes in and sets up magearna on a already weakened team and also the hazards steel runs it can sweep a team and you can't sack anything to hazards like could with moxie or beast boost because soul heart gives you +1 anyways. A broken mon with good support is still broken.
 
#7
It took long enough for this thing to be suspected! Magearna is one pokemon that absolutely needs to go in my opinion. Magearna can single handedly destroy a huge variety of types that can't deal with it effectively enough. I think prominent examples exist when it is used on Steel. Steel has a weakness to fighting so naturally it is expected that fighting would have the upper hand or it would at least be an even matchup. However with Magearna it just becomes an autoloss for fighting to face steel which to me makes this so unhealthy. Yes infernape is one mon present on fighting but no good steel player every lets Magearna stay in on Infernape. If Infernape is forced to switch out, Magearna can quite easily come later in the game and then clean fighting. The trick room set just causes a huge amount of problems for any fighting pokemon and Magearna can easily come in on a choiced terrakion or keldeo and proceed to sweep a fighting team from there. I have tried fighting vs steel several times. Steel becomes very beatable for fighting if Magearna is not present in the team but with magearna in a steel team, it becomes near impossible for fighting to win. The presence of just a single pokemon shouldn't influence a match up so greatly. Similar arguments exist for Dark and Dragon. A huge amount of dragon pokemon carry ground and fire coverage to make steel a relatively even matchup. But none of these mons are close to coming in and potentially ko'ing magearna. Again Magearna can set up trick room and make it nearly an autowin for steel. If you have one mon destroying 3 types then it becomes very unhealthy for the meta especially when fighting in all honesty should be a hard matchup for steel as opposed to a walk in the park it currently is. Another point is that steel mons are especially slow and bulky. The trick room support magearna gives to a steel team is impeccable and allows other mons to come in and subsequently deal huge chunks of damage. Mega scizor forms such a good partner to Magearna and makes steel such an amazingly powerful type. Mega scizor can be checked as it's stab combination is resisted but magearna becomes a huge pain to check for a lot of different types. The coverage also it carries can sometimes cause huge problems.


Magearna is also a huge threat on fairy types in large part due to the defensive synergy it has with fairy teams and the huge amount of support it gets. With Klefki's double screens and Tapu Bulu's grassy terrain, magearna takes pitiful damage from anything and can set up freely. A lot of Magearna even carry assault vest so can help in just dismantling so many types. BoltBeam coverage on an assault vest magearna for example can cripple types like flying and many hard hitting mons on flying such as landorus and dragonite can't revenge kill magearna due to the amazing team support it receives. Full health magearna with an assault vest and light screen up can even tank hits from zard y and ko in return with thunderbolt. Furthermore, Magearna can run so many different sets on a fairy team including a trick room set, an assault vest set, a bulky calm mind set or a shift gear set. This makes it very unpredictable as to how to deal with this mon and it can take out huge chunks of teams before you realize what hit you. The huge variety and team support magearna gets on fairy makes it such a huge threat and also enables fairy to quite evenly match poison. Nidoking can't ko magearna outright due to the support it receives and lack of bulk makes it very susceptible to being ko'ed in return. In other tiers, you can run checks for this mon but on Monotype for some types, it becomes very difficult to handle. As a result I do believe this should be banned. It is causing way too many problems for the tier
 
#8
This is a topic that I guessed was eventually going to happen, and honestly I think it was needed to really see where our metagame stands and how a metagame without it could improve. A suspect for Magearna imo has been more than necessary for a while, but so far I haven't seen very much support for the no ban side of it (because let's face it, in a suspect there will always be ban happy people alongside those who really support and really oppose). That being said, I'd like to make a case for it and see it through to the end, and as of right now I do plan to attempt to make the COIL requirement, so its only fair that I share my own views if I do end up being one of the voters.
There's no questioning Magearna is one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in Monotype currently. There's a few major factors behind this, the first and arguably pinnacle point is its wide range of versatility. Thanks to its brilliant typing and movepool, it has a variety of ways to be used. The most notable options of usage it has is spread out between Assault Vest, Shift Gear, Trick Room, Shift Gear + CM, and Choice Specs. It also has an extremely wide array of coverage to fit the needs of the rest of the team its used on, most notably including Fluer Cannon, Flash Cannon, Aura Sphere/Focus Blast, BoltBeam, Energy Ball, and even Volt Switch. Magearna is extremely adaptable in that aspect, being able to fill the role of a sweeper, a wallbreaker, and even a special tank. One of the biggest reasons it is as great as it has been is credited to the introduction of Z-Moves, which gives it a singular opportunity per battle to fire off 1 ridiculously high BP attack with essentially no drawbacks. The reason this is so important is because it can land that first initial kill it needs to activate Soul Heart and get it to +1 off the bat if used correctly. This (as probably implied) also allows it to almost easily get rid of 1 threat/something that would normally wall it otherwise and stop an incoming sweep. Going back to its set up options, though its speed stat is nothing amazing, thanks to Shift Gear its able to double it, allowing it to outspeed any scarfer up to, but not including, base 103 (which at this point is majority of the boosted metagame, just narrowly beating out Scarf Garchomp). Trick Room, inversely, can take advantage of its mediocre base 65 Speed stat to turn the tables at minimum investment, and be able to stop many faster pokemon that would otherwise be able to easily check it (and being blessed with the defensive typing it has, as well as its well above average bulk, this is not terribly hard to do). It's power to start is nothing to be undermined either; base 130 alongside one of the strongest Fairy Attacks in the game is no messing around, this can be quite threatening, and one Soul Heart boost (or a 1.5x immediate boost from Choice Specs) takes quite a bit to wall, as with the combination of its coverage, on paper, not very much can actually resist it. This is why Magearna really is one of the best and most versatile Pokemon coming out of Gen 7, however a lot of people do forget some of the flaws it has behind running some of its sets that people oftentimes forget.

This is where I want to bring things back down to earth, because despite being blessed with the attributes it has, each one has its own individual drawbacks that do level out things for Magearna. I'll start with, imo, the most (generally speaking) reliable set Magearna has at its disposal, which is Trick Room. I feel this is its most optimal set due to the fact that it has the least amount of real drawbacks, and its one of the easiest to sweep with because it uses its relatively low speed to its own advantage, and renders revenge killing it with faster mons (notably choice scarfers) almost useless. Because its not focusing on its speed stat, you're able to put in max investment into its Special Attack stat, reaching that powerful 394 total without any initial boosts. It's also able to use Z-Moves at its disposal (mainly Fairium or Steelium Z), which aformentioned gives it the opportunity to fire a 1 time nuke attack to make it a lot easier to get that first Soul Heart boost to begin snowballing. While as I said, the opportunity cost with this set is arguably the lowest, it does still have things you need to consider. Trick Room is amazing for essentially turning the tables on faster mons, this can sometimes work against you. On Fairy especially (who tend to run a few fairly fast mons, most notably Tapu Koko, Scarf Tapu Bulu, and at rare times Scarf Togekiss), if you mess up a sweep, your stuck with having to deal with Trick Room for the rest of its duration. This argument is a lot lighter on Steel, due to the fact a lot of its mons are naturally slow, but if you don't have many Pokemon outside of Trick Room who are actually at a relatively good speed tier, then without it set up its usually pretty difficult to have success. (As mentioned in Steel's case this argument is not as strong as it is towards Fairy moreso, but that's also considering Steel majority of the time is a more Balanced type where a lot of sweeping options are sacrificed for various walls and utility mons, but that still means less opportunities to sweep. This means Steel's reliance on Magearna as a sweeper is a lot higher)


Right after TR, the next best set for it is, more or less, Shift Gear. As previously stated once boosted, its able to outspeed everything below Scarf Garchomp, which at that point is the majority of the boosted metagame. That does not include the fact that faster mons can easily outspeed it, namely Excadrill, +2 Gyarados, Modest Kingdra, +2 RP Landorus-I, +2 Volcarona and Mega Zard X, and Alolan Raichu to name a few notable examples (most of which are fairly common in today's metagame). The fact it needs to run Timid in order for this set to reach the optimal Speed Tier it hits also includes the fact that you sacrifice maximum Modest firepower you would get otherwise. It does still have the opportunity to use Z-moves, however in doing so, this is much more burdensome on this set because it starts out (again generally speaking) somewhat weak without a Soul Heart Boost (which means it cannot run something like Life Orb to strengthen its power across the board overall, which is not doing it very many favors). I also want to point out one of the biggest flaws in running CM to remedy that (which as of late has been gaining some usage and becoming decently popular)--you're down to only 2 attacking moves, which does not help the fact that it does has a pretty good case of 4MMS. Running CM actually makes it more susceptible to various walls, which in turn results in you having to do a lot more prep-work before starting a sweep. There's also the fact that this requires twice the amount of set up time on paper (granted in a perfect world you can boost CM whenever you feel necessary, it can be mid-sweep even to be able to break past walls and so you get your initial speed boost first, but as you can imagine that is not always the case). While that set does increase its overall versatility, your attacking options are slim and its unavoidable for it to get walled by a small group of common walls (depending on the attack choices made, most commonly I've seen Fluer Cannon/Dazzling Gleam and Aura Sphere/Focus Blast, which right off the bat leaves you hardwalled by Toxapex, who can also run Haze to stop you). 251 Speed to start is doing you no major favors as well, as prior to a Shift gear boost you're really only outspeeding things like Alolan Golem, common Seismitoad variants (non Timid), Adamant Breloom, Modest Volcanion, etc. This is pretty underwhelming prior to a set up, on top of the fact it has no bulk (HP) investment like you would with TR.


Choice Specs and Assault Vests are also fairly common sets being seen, but their biggest problem is the fact that it can't take advantage of one of Magearna's best qualities, its ability to sweep. While yes, they take on different roles as they are not sweepers, one being a wallbreaker and one being a tank, but arguably Magearna on both Steel and Fairy is one of the best sweeping options at your disposal. Choice Specs does give you an initial +1 boost to begin with without having to kill anything, but the main problems with that is it cannot take advantage of using an absurdly high base power Z Move, and you're locked into 1 attack (implying that you cannot switch freely). As for Assault Vest, this is able to increase its overall bulk significantly (and its great as a slow defensive pivot, being able to take full advantage of the slow momentum it gets from Volt Switch), you also cannot use a Z Move there to get that first Soul Heart boost, and it obviously can't use Choice Specs or CM to attempt to remedy that. Right off the bat it can prove to be difficult to get it to the optimal power level it needs when using that set. This also does not solve the fact that it is considerably slow in the offensive metagame we have today, and now there's no way of solving that with either sets.

Sets aside, each of these popular sets share the same unanimous problems--its very noticeable 4MSS (which means you cannot cover everything to sweep, there will more than likely be a small range of defensive answers for it no matter what), the fact that its not very threatening without getting a Soul Heart Boost first (which requires it to kill someone, that's essentially saying if you were applying for your first job job you need experience in order to get work experience, you need to get a kill with it in order for it to get more kills) or Choice Specs, that before any boosts or set up its considerably slow, Fluer Cannon's -2 special attack drops can potentially slow down/stop sweeps (-1 if it manages to get a kill with it), and lastly its susceptible to common Fire and Ground Coverage. Those facts being said, to me it is not a broken Pokemon in the Monotype Metagame. That does not change the fact that I think it is one of the best and most versatile currently, but just because it is really good does not mean its at an overcentralizing point. While it significantly skews matchups against Dragon (as Goodra is the only check, and even that is not very reliable), Dark you can argue, and Fighting (even though currently it is one of the worst types alongside Ice and Rock) (where I'm going with that is taking out Magearna will not change Fighting's state in the metagame, surely it'll have a bit of an easier time against Steel, it doesn't change the fact that fairy will still be very good against it, and Steel will still have answers to it if it ever does become more prevalent, see Scizor vs Talonflame in the discussion thread to see what philosophy I'm referring to). Those reasons being stated, my personal stance as of now (which you do not have to agree with) is No Ban, however I will not argue I feel a suspect is plausible for it just because of the big imprint it has on Monotype as of late, and its a smart way of seeing how much things would be different in a metagame without it.

Thank you for taking time to read.

(edit: removed the images, fixed a couple minor errors, and added Fluer Cannon's stat drops as an argument).
 
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#9
Finally, the time has come to suspect a threat that many of us recognized from the start of generation 7. And I have a few thoughts on the effect that Magearna has on this metagame.

Magearna is versatile: From the header, it may just sound like an argument we have all heard before, but we have been looking at versatility the wrong way. Yes, Magearna can learn moves like Ice Beam or Energy Ball that can occasionally have their uses, but generally those aren’t used. However, within the four coverage moves that it generally uses, Fleur Cannon, Flash Cannon, Aura Sphere, and Thunderbolt, there are several sets that Magearna can run that are all viable in their own respects, requiring only three coverage moves and one status move, making Magearna's "4MSS" less of an issue as it only takes Magearna four moves to pull off each of these sets. While I know that there are others, I personally know of several offensive sets that can be used to great effect: Shift Gear, Trick Room, and Calm Mind.

Shift Gear: After a Shift Gear, Magearna ties in speed with Nihilego holding a Choice Scarf meaning that it outspeeds the vast majority of the metagame where it can pop its ZMove and then proceed to sweep with its coverage moves.

Trick Room: Trick Room operates in a similar manner to Shift Gear, but in a way that is generally deadlier. Under Trick Room, Magearna underspeeds most things in the metagame where it can sweep in the same way that the Shift Gear set does. However, because Magearna wants to underspeed with Trick Room, Magearna suddenly gets all the Speed EV’s of Shift Gear to invest in its bulk, making it harder to take down once it is set up. Although, Magearna can, on rare occasions be taken down under Trick Room. However, even if Magearna is taken down, Fairy has Azumarill slow enough to use it, or priority to ignore the last turns of Trick Room, leaving the faster pokemon on Fairy to do their job naturally.

Calm Mind: Calm Mind is an interesting set to me. Rather than caring so much about speed, a Calm Mind set cares more about its bulk in a similar manner to Trick Room. However, this set gets more freedom in its item because Magearna does not have to rely on one overly powerful move to start it’s sweep as Calm Mind augments its Special Attack. On the Calm Mind set, Magearna gets the chance to run Leftovers for passive recovery while also giving the Zmove to something like Azumarill.

But here is the kicker: Each of Magearna’s these viable sets require different types of pokemon to check them, and even then its checks generally aren’t able to check all variants of Magearna. Generally speaking, there are 3 types of checks to Magearna: those that outspeed Magearna, those that underspeed Magearna, and those that can tank Magearna. But note that there are flaws with each type of check because of the various sets that Magearna can run. Note: Yes, Magearna cannot run all three sets at the same time; however, the opponent cannot know which set Magearna is running from the preview, and that can make things really difficult later in the match when determining which check can actually handle Magearna.

Checks that Outspeed Shift Gear Magearna: Things like Scarf Greninja or Alolan Raichu can be good for checking or revenge killing the Shift Gear set and the Calm Mind set; however, these are screwed over by the Trick Room set as Magearna will turn around and underspeed these checks.

Checks that Underspeed Trick Room Magearna: This is a more niche check for things like Torkoal or Araquanid (with 29 speed IV’s) that only works for the Trick Room set as both the Calm Mind and the Shift Gear set will outspeed these and generally ko them.

Checks that can Tank Magearna: The Calm Mind set simply sets up on tanks like Alolan Muk and deals a lot of damage to them, often overpowering them after they have set up. Also, the Shift Gear and the Trick Room sets can cause issues too as Magearna can run a Fairy, Fighting, Steel, or even an Electric ZMove, thus limiting the abilities of pokemon that can “tank” Magearna, once it is set up.

As if that wasn’t enough, there is one more set that I find to be prominent enough to talk about: Assault Vest. Magearna is a threat that is prominent in everyone’s mind as only a few types can safely teambuild without keeping it in mind. However, with an assault vest, Magearna takes the backseat, giving momentum to its teammates. With its typing, stats, and low speed, Magearna gets many chances to slow pivot into other teammates, putting a lot of pressure on the opponent as both Fairy and Steel have strong threats that can abuse this. Despite having an assault vest, Magearna still has enough offensive pressure with its 130 base SpA and Soul Heart to do some significant damage once teams are worn down. This means that Magearna’s checks still need to survive in order to do their job despite the offense presense that pokemon like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, or Excadrill have. The versatility that Magearna has is only paralleled by pokemon like Hoopa-Unbound or Greninja giving it many possible roles, and the ability to perform them all wonderfully.

Magearna also skews several matchups for the types it is on with some of the sets it has. They still can't be run all at the same time, but again, at the preview, the opponent can't know what set Magearna is running. And skewing matchups is another quality of a banworthy pokemon.

Fairy vs Poison: Barring Nidoking, a Calm Mind Magearna can sit in front of all 5 of the remaining pokemon on Poison, Venusaur, Toxapex, Muk-Alola, Nihilego, and Crobat, and set up a few Calm Minds to the point where it can ohko everything on the team with either Thunderbolt or Flash Cannon. Also noteworthy is that Calm Mind raises Magearna’s Special Defense which makes Fire Blast Muk-Alola and HP Fire Mega Venusaur far less useful vs Magearna.

Fairy vs Electric: Electric really struggles with Trick Room Magearna, especially when Rocks are up as that breaks Golem-Alola’s sash, Magnezones Sturdy, and chips Zapdos into ZFleur range. Then it becomes a case of which 4 pokemon does the Electric user want to sack to Magearna, leaving only two pokemon to handle the rest of the Fairy team.

Steel vs Water: The ability that Magearna has vs water is often ignored because Fairy also has Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu to help. However, that doesn’t mean that Magearna can’t put in work. Trick Room completely screws over Swift Swim Water, while ZFleur Cannon, and Thunderbolt, hit everything on water really hard, making it generally simple for Magearna to sweep.

Steel vs Dragon: A similar case to Fairy vs Electric, Dragon has quite a few wall breakers that can make Steel a doable matchup, but a Trick Room from Magearna means what four pokemon do I need to sack, once again leaving Dragon with only two pokemon to handle the rest of the team.

Steel vs Dark: Dark is one of the only types to actually hit Steel neutrally, and Steel actually can struggle to break the standard Defensive Dark core. But then Magearna comes out and wipes out all four pokemon on its own, making Steel vs Dark a breeze for Steel when it was normally a relatively even match up. In fact, a case could be made for Fairy vs Dark as Dark has Muk-Alola and Scarf Greninja with Gunk Shot to handle Fairy, both of which are nullified by Magearna, giving Magearna the chance to set up it’s status move of choice.

In the end, here is the way I look at things: does Magearna add to or take away from the metagame? Magearna is a big reason why Dark does not see much usage, even though Dark should be a viable type in this metagame, having solid match ups vs Steel (without Magearna) and Psychic, two of the most prominent types in the metagame. Without Magearna, there is also a lot less pressure on the metagame because we wouldn’t have to worry about Magearna’s omnipresent status and many viable sets. And what do we lose without Magearna? Steel will still be an excellent type without Magearna because of the magnificent support that Heatran and Skarmory provide to the other Pokemon on Steel. Also, losing Magearna provides a healthy balance to Fairy while not crippling the type. Magearna has a solid match up in virtually every matchup, including Poison and Steel, which Fairy loves to have. However, Fairy still has Klefki for a poison immunity, and Mega Gardevoir is back, giving Fairy access to a stab move that is Super Effective against Poison. Without Magearna, Fairy also gets the chance to run Togekiss/Clefable alongside Mega Gardevoir, which can help out with Steel in their own respect. While Fairy would lose a pokemon that helped out the type a lot, it still has other pokemon to handle the matchups it normally won. If we were to ban Magearna, we wouldn’t be losing or crippling any prominent types, while we directly help out Dark, Dragon, and Fighting and ease the pressure on several other types, gaining far more than we lose. Therefore, I believe that we should ban Magearna from Monotype.
 
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Acast

Classy af
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#10
So lets say magearna gets banned, does this open up opportunities for other Pokemon to get unbanned, such as Hoopa U or Tapu Lele?
No.
Magearna has absolutely no bearing on whether Hoopa-U or Tapu Lele should have been banned, so this suspect will not impact those two in any way. Could Magearna being banned potentially make us reconsider other aspects of the metagame? Sure, maybe. I don't see any aspect of the metagame that would be worth reconsidering as it stands right now, but I won't say it's impossible.
 
#11
A question I want to ask is what does each Monotype Team ( Rock, Dragon, Ice, Fairy, Ground etc) has that can either counter or check Magearna?

Example: Monotype Dark.

You pretty much have to run Mega Houndoom or krookodile in order to check Magearna.

Mega Houndoom

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 224-266 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom-Mega: 255-300 (87.6 - 103%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom-Mega: 346-408 (118.9 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Houndoom is pretty much a shaky check as it can't switch in. If Magearna is running Shift Gear and setups, it outspeeds and OHKOS with Z-Moves

For Krookodile

252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 570-672 (172.2 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Krookodile has only a small chance to OHKO at full health and can't switch in at all

Any other Dark Pokemon ( Hydreigon, Bisharp, A-Muk, Greninja etc) get blasted by Magearna especially by shift gear and are all shaky at best.

Don't forget for each OHKO it gets it also gets Soul Heart boost.

Monotype Rock

252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 192-228 (63.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 462-546 (143 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Choice Scarf Terrakion 2ohkos Magearna but again it can't switch in.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega-Aerodactyl is another shaky check can't switch in and both Fire Fang and Earthquake are only 2ohko but gets outspeed if Magearna has used Shift Gear.

Cradily can't do smack to Magearna.

Omastar needs to setup Shell Smash but gets knocked out by Thunderbolt and Fleur Cannon. Also gets outspeed by Shift Gear sets

Rhypherior

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 225-265 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 570-672 (189.3 - 223.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

At best this could be Rock's Best check to Magearna which you would be require to take a hit and activates weakness policy if it's weaken thou it no longer checks

Same with Tyranitar.
 
#12
It took long enough for this thing to be suspected! Magearna is one pokemon that absolutely needs to go in my opinion. Magearna can single handedly destroy a huge variety of types that can't deal with it effectively enough. I think prominent examples exist when it is used on Steel. Steel has a weakness to fighting so naturally it is expected that fighting would have the upper hand or it would at least be an even matchup. However with Magearna it just becomes an autoloss for fighting to face steel which to me makes this so unhealthy. Yes infernape is one mon present on fighting but no good steel player every lets Magearna stay in on Infernape. If Infernape is forced to switch out, Magearna can quite easily come later in the game and then clean fighting. The trick room set just causes a huge amount of problems for any fighting pokemon and Magearna can easily come in on a choiced terrakion or keldeo and proceed to sweep a fighting team from there. I have tried fighting vs steel several times. Steel becomes very beatable for fighting if Magearna is not present in the team but with magearna in a steel team, it becomes near impossible for fighting to win. The presence of just a single pokemon shouldn't influence a match up so greatly. Similar arguments exist for Dark and Dragon. A huge amount of dragon pokemon carry ground and fire coverage to make steel a relatively even matchup. But none of these mons are close to coming in and potentially ko'ing magearna. Again Magearna can set up trick room and make it nearly an autowin for steel. If you have one mon destroying 3 types then it becomes very unhealthy for the meta especially when fighting in all honesty should be a hard matchup for steel as opposed to a walk in the park it currently is. Another point is that steel mons are especially slow and bulky. The trick room support magearna gives to a steel team is impeccable and allows other mons to come in and subsequently deal huge chunks of damage. Mega scizor forms such a good partner to Magearna and makes steel such an amazingly powerful type. Mega scizor can be checked as it's stab combination is resisted but magearna becomes a huge pain to check for a lot of different types. The coverage also it carries can sometimes cause huge problems.


Magearna is also a huge threat on fairy types in large part due to the defensive synergy it has with fairy teams and the huge amount of support it gets. With Klefki's double screens and Tapu Bulu's grassy terrain, magearna takes pitiful damage from anything and can set up freely. A lot of Magearna even carry assault vest so can help in just dismantling so many types. BoltBeam coverage on an assault vest magearna for example can cripple types like flying and many hard hitting mons on flying such as landorus and dragonite can't revenge kill magearna due to the amazing team support it receives. Full health magearna with an assault vest and light screen up can even tank hits from zard y and ko in return with thunderbolt. Furthermore, Magearna can run so many different sets on a fairy team including a trick room set, an assault vest set, a bulky calm mind set or a shift gear set. This makes it very unpredictable as to how to deal with this mon and it can take out huge chunks of teams before you realize what hit you. The huge variety and team support magearna gets on fairy makes it such a huge threat and also enables fairy to quite evenly match poison. Nidoking can't ko magearna outright due to the support it receives and lack of bulk makes it very susceptible to being ko'ed in return. In other tiers, you can run checks for this mon but on Monotype for some types, it becomes very difficult to handle. As a result I do believe this should be banned. It is causing way too many problems for the tier
I was originally gonna save my thoughts until after I started laddering, but there are some things about this post that I have to bring up. The first being the matchup vs Fighting. It is true that TR Magearna is capable of tearing through Fighting once hazards have been set. However, why is it particularly relevant? Bringing up what Dece1t said about the ban philosophy, the question must be asked whether removing the suspected Pokemon will add or subtract to the metagame. If Magearna gets banned, Fighting will still be an extremely low-end type due to its pitiful matchup against nearly every semi-relevant offensive type, examples being Fairy, Psychic, Electric, and Bug. So bringing up Fighting is pretty pointless considering how either decision about Magearna would result in Fighting being a terrible type that would only receive one more favorable matchup, yet still be extremely lackluster.

If you have one mon destroying 3 types then it becomes very unhealthy for the meta
Again, this scenario goes back to the Scizor situation in ORAS. Scizor destroyed Ice, Rock, and Fairy, but the problem didn't lie in Scizor itself, but the problems within those specific types. So Scizor ended up staying, and Ice and Rock continued to be inevitably awful. Scizor wasn't considered "unhealthy" for that meta, and Magearna shouldn't be considered unhealthy for that same reason.

As for the next part of the post, where Fairy is mentioned, AV Magearna doesn't run BoltBeam coverage. It typically runs Flash Cannon, Fleur Cannon, Aura Sphere, and Volt Switch. AV Magearna isn't meant to "dismantle types" it's meant as a bulky pivot. The Mega Charizard Y example doesn't make too much sense either since not only does Mega Charizard Y survive an unboosted Thunderbolt from full health, but AV Magearna also doesn't even run Thunderbolt.

A question I want to ask is what does each Monotype Team ( Rock, Dragon, Ice, Fairy, Ground etc) has that can either counter or check Magearna?
To answer this question, Rock, Ice, and Dragon don't have consistent checks to Trick Room/Shift Gear sets in particular. Ground is capable of reliably checking every set except for Trick Room sets, which Ground fails to switch into/revenge kill when under Trick Room. As for Fairy, the first thought would be AV Magearna, which can soak up hits from most Magearna sets pretty decently and proceed to wear it down with Flash Cannon. I hope that answers the question.
 
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#13
Please note that this does not conclude what I will vote or my final say about Magearna, however:

There might be some positive impacts if Magearna gets banned. It could increase overall type diversity and thus, types like Dark, Dragon (mega altaria and latias coming very soon), and even Water will have better chances in the metagame and are consequently going to have increased usage.

Furthermore, Fairy and Steel would still be good with their tools they currently have and it could make several matchups (especially with the forementioned types in the above section) more skill-based instead of being decided straightforward on team preview. So, even if Magearna isn't broken on its own, removing it from metagame could bring desirable results.

Not really making any conclusions, but I really would like to see more posts geared torward the consequences of Magearna ban instead of simply stating what is strong or how it currently fares (especially given that most types/teams could succesfully adapt to Magearna even with the issues people have brought up in their posts).
 
#14
I was originally gonna save my thoughts until after I started laddering, but there are some things about this post that I have to bring up. The first being the matchup vs Fighting. It is true that TR Magearna is capable of tearing through Fighting once hazards have been set. However, why is it particularly relevant? Bringing up what Dece1t said about the ban philosophy, the question must be asked whether removing the suspected Pokemon will add or subtract to the metagame. If Magearna gets banned, Fighting will still be an extremely low-end type due to its pitiful matchup against nearly every semi-relevant offensive type, examples being Fairy, Psychic, Electric, and Bug. So bringing up Fighting is pretty pointless considering how either decision about Magearna would result in Fighting being a terrible type that would only receive one more favorable matchup, yet still be extremely lackluster.



Again, this scenario goes back to the Scizor situation in ORAS. Scizor destroyed Ice, Rock, and Fairy, but the problem didn't lie in Scizor itself, but the problems within those specific types. So Scizor ended up staying, and Ice and Rock continued to be inevitably awful. Scizor wasn't considered "unhealthy" for that meta, and Magearna shouldn't be considered unhealthy for that same reason.

As for the next part of the post, where Fairy is mentioned, AV Magearna doesn't run BoltBeam coverage. It typically runs Flash Cannon, Fleur Cannon, Aura Sphere, and Volt Switch. AV Magearna isn't meant to "dismantle types" it's meant as a bulky pivot. The Mega Charizard Y example doesn't make too much sense either since not only does Mega Charizard Y survive an unboosted Thunderbolt from full health, but AV Magearna also doesn't even run Thunderbolt.



To answer this question, Rock, Ice, and Dragon don't have consistent checks to Trick Room/Shift Gear sets in particular. Ground is capable of reliably checking every set except for Trick Room sets, which Ground fails to switch into/revenge kill when under Trick Room. As for Fairy, the first thought would be AV Magearna, which can soak up hits from most Magearna sets pretty decently and proceed to wear it down with Flash Cannon. I hope that answers the question.
I disagree with a couple of your points. Firstly in fighting's stand in the current metagame. I would also like to point out that you follow a slippery slope in that you judge types and say some are unviable. Yes there are types that are better than others but the whole point of the metagame is to be able to use different types and not dismiss certain types because they are harder to use - this argument seems to imply that to be a good monotype player you need to use top tier types which can't be farther from the truth. Fighting is by no means a lacklustre type and offensively it is very good. It has bad matchups certainly vs psychic, fairy, electric, flying and a few others like potentially swift swim water. Nonetheless fighting can actually potentially win vs a lot of these types. There are plenty of mons fighting can run to potentially help with these difficult matchups such as double dance terrakion etc.

Steel is not just one more type. This is a top tier type we are talking about: steel. Steel only has 2 bad matchups currently: ground and fire. Other matchups are all winnable bar dedicated counter teams. Furthermore many matchups are skewed in favour of steel just because of one mon. If we ask how the metagame will benefit from the subtraction from Magearna I can name fighting, dark and fairy. Let's talk about scizor in ORAS. Yes it destroyed ice and rock but you had several good counters to deal with scizor.: weakness policy rhyperior, omastar with hp fire, babiri berry kyurem, cloyster etc. However, dark, fighting and dragon have a near impossible time to try and check magearna. Nothing can reliably come in to mag and act as a dedicated counter. Therefore, the ORAS argument of scizor falls flat here. This is especially compounded by the sheer variety of sets magearna can run.

So let's get rid of magearna. What do we get? We get more even matchups for steel where a steel user can't confidently walk into a matchup expecting to win if it isn't fire or ground. We revive dark and fighting and make them usable types. Dark also now can potentially win vs steel. Fairy also gets a bit of a nerf as it doesn't get such a premier sweeper that benefits so immensely from team support. These are strong arguments in my opinion for a magearna ban. It helps a lot of types except for of course steel and fairy which quite frankly could and should do without it.
 
#15
I disagree with a couple of your points. Firstly in fighting's stand in the current metagame. I would also like to point out that you follow a slippery slope in that you judge types and say some are unviable. Yes there are types that are better than others but the whole point of the metagame is to be able to use different types and not dismiss certain types because they are harder to use - this argument seems to imply that to be a good monotype player you need to use top tier types which can't be farther from the truth. Fighting is by no means a lacklustre type and offensively it is very good. It has bad matchups certainly vs psychic, fairy, electric, flying and a few others like potentially swift swim water. Nonetheless fighting can actually potentially win vs a lot of these types. There are plenty of mons fighting can run to potentially help with these difficult matchups such as double dance terrakion etc.
As much as I agree with your stance, Fighting is a lackluster type. It lacks any defensive core, meaning it pretty much has to be offensive, leaving it susceptible to many of the walls we find in this metagame. I do agree that losing Magearna can help out Fighting as there is one less pokemon it has to worry about, but the same argument can be made for Rock and Ice, which no one will contest are bad types. For fighting alone though, not including the other bad types, it takes a step at evening out the Fighting vs Steel match up.

Let's talk about scizor in ORAS. Yes it destroyed ice and rock but you had several good counters to deal with scizor.: weakness policy rhyperior, omastar with hp fire, babiri berry kyurem, cloyster etc. However, dark, fighting and dragon have a near impossible time to try and check magearna. Nothing can reliably come in to mag and act as a dedicated counter. Therefore, the ORAS argument of scizor falls flat here. This is especially compounded by the sheer variety of sets magearna can run.
The Scizor argument does apply to Rock, Ice, and Fighting as they will still generally be bad, even with a Magearna ban, just slightly less so. However, you are correct that the Scizor argument does not apply to Dark and Dragon as they are solid types with power other qualities in good types. But it is important to note that Krookodile and Scarf Greninja can offensively check Magearna and Tyranitar is a tentative Defensive check. Dark can check Magearna too, but the issue comes in with the teammates that Magearna has. Tapu Bulu and Skarmory pretty much nullify all Earthquakes headed Magearna's way, and then Scarf Greninja has to handle the likes of Bulu and Ferrothorn for its Stab Hydro Pump on the Scarf Set. This is what makes Magearna so much of a problem for Dark and Dragon. The same thing applies to the sets you listed above for checks to Scizor on Rock and Ice: They are generally walled by Scizor's teammates. The difference between Rock/Ice/Fighting and Dark/Dragon is that Dark and Dragon have the potential to be good, viable types without Magearna while the former three do not.

So let's get rid of magearna. What do we get? We get more even matchups for steel where a steel user can't confidently walk into a matchup expecting to win if it isn't fire or ground. We revive dark and fighting and make them usable types. Dark also now can potentially win vs steel. Fairy also gets a bit of a nerf as it doesn't get such a premier sweeper that benefits so immensely from team support. These are strong arguments in my opinion for a magearna ban. It helps a lot of types except for of course steel and fairy which quite frankly could and should do without it.
These are better reasons to ban Magearna. It provides a healthy nerf to two of the best types in the metagame, while helping out Dark, Dragon, and other types that find Magearna to be a problem, thus gaining more than we lose if we were to ban Magearna.
 
#16
I disagree with a couple of your points. Firstly in fighting's stand in the current metagame. I would also like to point out that you follow a slippery slope in that you judge types and say some are unviable. Yes there are types that are better than others but the whole point of the metagame is to be able to use different types and not dismiss certain types because they are harder to use - this argument seems to imply that to be a good monotype player you need to use top tier types which can't be farther from the truth. Fighting is by no means a lacklustre type and offensively it is very good. It has bad matchups certainly vs psychic, fairy, electric, flying and a few others like potentially swift swim water. Nonetheless fighting can actually potentially win vs a lot of these types. There are plenty of mons fighting can run to potentially help with these difficult matchups such as double dance terrakion etc.

Steel is not just one more type. This is a top tier type we are talking about: steel. Steel only has 2 bad matchups currently: ground and fire. Other matchups are all winnable bar dedicated counter teams. Furthermore many matchups are skewed in favour of steel just because of one mon. If we ask how the metagame will benefit from the subtraction from Magearna I can name fighting, dark and fairy. Let's talk about scizor in ORAS. Yes it destroyed ice and rock but you had several good counters to deal with scizor.: weakness policy rhyperior, omastar with hp fire, babiri berry kyurem, cloyster etc. However, dark, fighting and dragon have a near impossible time to try and check magearna. Nothing can reliably come in to mag and act as a dedicated counter. Therefore, the ORAS argument of scizor falls flat here. This is especially compounded by the sheer variety of sets magearna can run.

So let's get rid of magearna. What do we get? We get more even matchups for steel where a steel user can't confidently walk into a matchup expecting to win if it isn't fire or ground. We revive dark and fighting and make them usable types. Dark also now can potentially win vs steel. Fairy also gets a bit of a nerf as it doesn't get such a premier sweeper that benefits so immensely from team support. These are strong arguments in my opinion for a magearna ban. It helps a lot of types except for of course steel and fairy which quite frankly could and should do without it.
First of all, no one made the argument that you absolutely have to use top tier types to be a "good" monotype player. And I didn't dismiss Ice and Rock because they were "harder to use". I dismissed them because they are fundamentally flawed types that would not be heavily improved by the absence of Scizor. Also, Steel has more bad matchups than just Fire and Ground. It also has tough matchups against Electric, Poison, and Psychic. And these types aren't "dedicated counter-teams". Some of them are in fact MORE viable and prevalent than Fire and Ground. So to say that Steel only has 2 bad matchups is plainly false. Also, what you listed as Scizor "counters" for Ice and Rock were in fact checks, not counters. Weakness Policy Rhyperior, Omastar, Babiri Berry Kyurem-Black, and Cloyster aren't easily switching in and threatening Scizor like an actual counter would. But instead they rely on having a safe switch in order to take on Scizor. Plus, a lot of these supposed checks are rather inconsistent, since Omastar has to take the time to set up beforehand in order to reliably remove bulkier sets, and offensive sets just flat out outspeed and KO it with Superpower almost every time. Considering how incredibly easy it is for Steel to maintain hazards against Ice, Kyurem-Black and Cloyster will often be significantly chipped down whenever they try to come in to check Mega Scizor. In fact, similarly to Omastar, Cloyster would need the time to set up beforehand before it can even KO Mega Scizor in a single hit, and by then it would more than likely be within range of a Bullet Punch. So if you're gonna list inconsistent checks as your attempt to invalidate my argument, I could do the exact same thing for Magearna, but would then end up looking completely unknowledgeable.

And how exactly will removing Magearna make Fighting a usable type? It'll still face terrible matchups vs nearly every relevant offensive type in the metagame, and would only receive a favorable matchup against Steel. And here's something I'm really REALLY curious about:

It has bad matchups certainly vs psychic, fairy, electric, flying and a few others like potentially swift swim water. Nonetheless fighting can actually potentially win vs a lot of these types. There are plenty of mons fighting can run to potentially help with these difficult matchups such as double dance terrakion etc.
I am legitimately curious as to how Fighting can actually beat types like Psychic, Fairy, and Electric in particular. You bring up Double Dance Terrakion as an example, yet it oftentimes struggles to ever find a safe setup opportunity against these types. In the Electric matchup, the closest thing it has to safe setup opportunity is against Zapdos, and even then Terrakion would be risking Discharge paralysis. As for Fairy, there is quite literally nothing to safely set up against, with the same situation applying to SS Water. And for Psychic, not only will Terrak only be able to set up against Scarf Victini locked into V-Create, but even if by some miracle it gets up both a Rock Polish and a Swords Dance, Sash Counter Zam will completely invalidate it. What I would suggest is using some relevant and factually correct examples when making your argument.
 
#17
Please note that this does not conclude what I will vote or my final say about Magearna, however:

There might be some positive impacts if Magearna gets banned. It could increase overall type diversity and thus, types like Dark, Dragon (mega altaria and latias coming very soon), and even Water will have better chances in the metagame and are consequently going to have increased usage.

Furthermore, Fairy and Steel would still be good with their tools they currently have and it could make several matchups (especially with the forementioned types in the above section) more skill-based instead of being decided straightforward on team preview. So, even if Magearna isn't broken on its own, removing it from metagame could bring desirable results.

Not really making any conclusions, but I really would like to see more posts geared torward the consequences of Magearna ban instead of simply stating what is strong or how it currently fares (especially given that most types/teams could succesfully adapt to Magearna even with the issues people have brought up in their posts).
I'll do both

Why Magearna should be Banned

- Good Bulk hard to take down Base 80/115/115 Defenses are damn good along with a Delicious Fairy-Typing with 8 resistance 2 immunity and a neutrality to Steel-Attacks for Fairy Types
- Unpredictable , Magearna can run many sets such as Trick Room, Z-Shift Gear, AV, Calm Mind etc
- Wide Movepool Coverage Switch, Ice Beam, Aura Sphere, Flash Cannon, HP Fire/Rock/Ground,
- Mono Steel and Fairy benefit a lot from this Pokemon making it hard to take down by certain Monotype teams so its hard for other types like Dark and Dragons to rise
- Once Setup can single handly handle and possibly snowball certain teams mostly Mono-Dragon, Ice, Rock, Dark, and few of them can counter back unless specific threats are runned.
- Soul Heart boost Magearna Sp attack with Each OHKO it gets making it hard to wall unless special walls are consider
- its hard to prepare for if not prepared it can be hard to Take down Magearna especially not knowing what set it will run.

Why Magearna should not be Banned
- Its slow - Base 65 Speed is mediocre and Magearna will most likely have to take a hit in order to setup.
- Common Weakness - Fire and Ground Coverage are on every team so moves like Earthquake, , Flamethower, Flare Blitz, Fire Punch, Earthpower, HP Fire/Ground are on almost every team.
- Loses to Mono Fire and Ground Easily
- No recovery - Magearna has no means of recovering outside of rest, Grassy Terrain, and Leftovers.
- 4 Move Syndrome - It can't run every move at once , it wants to Run Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, Ice Beam, Aura Sphere, HP Rock, Iron Head, Fleur Cannon, Z-Steelium etc but it can't do everything at once
 
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roman

i could be ur supermodel
is a Tiering Contributor
#18
hi!

i wasnt going to post until after i got reqs but seeing this is so frustrating.

from my perspective as a player who is either undecided or advocating no ban it's super frustrating to me to see the same stuff already being rehashed. players capable of getting reqs are fully aware of what mag is capable of which is why it's so annoying to already be seeing matchups / sets etc argued over already especially when some stuff people are saying is completely false. im basically trying to say that you're not going convince anyone who has any sort of experience in the mag metagame that it's broken / not broken by repeating what we've already read extensively in the SM metagame thread, the ps! chatroom (a ton), and the council's post regarding why it should be suspected

gl everyone with reqs! n_n
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#19
Let's try to hold ourselves to high standards when it comes to the quality of posts in this thread. I've had to delete many one-liner shitposts already. Further shitposting may be referred for infraction consideration.

Please note that this does not conclude what I will vote or my final say about Magearna, however:

There might be some positive impacts if Magearna gets banned. It could increase overall type diversity and thus, types like Dark, Dragon (mega altaria and latias coming very soon), and even Water will have better chances in the metagame and are consequently going to have increased usage.

Furthermore, Fairy and Steel would still be good with their tools they currently have and it could make several matchups (especially with the forementioned types in the above section) more skill-based instead of being decided straightforward on team preview. So, even if Magearna isn't broken on its own, removing it from metagame could bring desirable results.

Not really making any conclusions, but I really would like to see more posts geared torward the consequences of Magearna ban instead of simply stating what is strong or how it currently fares (especially given that most types/teams could succesfully adapt to Magearna even with the issues people have brought up in their posts).
This sort of comment is exactly the kind that has derailed suspect discussion in the past. What's important is whether or not Magearna itself is broken and banworthy. Magearna is going to be banned from the suspect ladder in order to give us a point of comparison because we simply cannot know what a metagame without Magearna would look like, since it's been around this whole time. The metagame adapts to changes, as it has with all other bans and unbans. Please do not theorymon (or suggest others to) what the ban would do in this thread. If you want to make a comment about a potential post-Magearna-ban metagame, that's what the soon-to-be-made suspect ladder will show.

The relevant question is whether or not Magearna is broken. Almost all of the content in your post runs directly counter to the Monotype tiering philosophy. Comments like "It could increase overall type diversity and thus, types like Dark, Dragon (mega altaria and latias coming very soon), and even Water will have better chances in the metagame and are consequently going to have increased usage. Furthermore, Fairy and Steel would still be good with their tools they currently have" are irrelevant, as the tiering philosophy does not prefer one type to another. Whether or not Fairy and Steel would still be good or not does not matter; if Magearna is broken, it should be banned regardless of the resultant state of its two types. Other comments such as "So, even if Magearna isn't broken on its own, removing it from metagame could bring desirable results." are almost outright toxic to our suspect process, as that is not only simply not the way Monotype is tiered, but it's, once again, directly counter to our tiering philosophy, which explicitly states that a Pokemon being broken is an important criterion for whether it should be banned or not. The "adds or removes" portion is only relevant to tiering in the very small corner case of a type being overly powerful; it is not relevant to tiering if the element in question is suspected for potentially being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.

The so-called "consequences" of a ban on Magearna are mostly irrelevant to this suspect. Magearna is being suspected because it is potentially broken. Please don't try to drive this thread off topic.

A question I want to ask is what does each Monotype Team ( Rock, Dragon, Ice, Fairy, Ground etc) has that can either counter or check Magearna?

Example: Monotype Dark.

You pretty much have to run Mega Houndoom or krookodile in order to check Magearna.

Mega Houndoom

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 338-398 (112.2 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Houndoom-Mega Fire Blast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 224-266 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom-Mega: 255-300 (87.6 - 103%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom-Mega: 346-408 (118.9 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Houndoom is pretty much a shaky check as it can't switch in. If Magearna is running Shift Gear and setups, it outspeeds and OHKOS with Z-Moves

For Krookodile

252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 570-672 (172.2 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Krookodile has only a small chance to OHKO at full health and can't switch in at all

Any other Dark Pokemon ( Hydreigon, Bisharp, A-Muk, Greninja etc) get blasted by Magearna especially by shift gear and are all shaky at best.

Don't forget for each OHKO it gets it also gets Soul Heart boost.

Monotype Rock

252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 192-228 (63.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 462-546 (143 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Choice Scarf Terrakion 2ohkos Magearna but again it can't switch in.

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega-Aerodactyl is another shaky check can't switch in and both Fire Fang and Earthquake are only 2ohko but gets outspeed if Magearna has used Shift Gear.

Cradily can't do smack to Magearna.

Omastar needs to setup Shell Smash but gets knocked out by Thunderbolt and Fleur Cannon. Also gets outspeed by Shift Gear sets

Rhypherior

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 225-265 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 16+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 570-672 (189.3 - 223.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

At best this could be Rock's Best check to Magearna which you would be require to take a hit and activates weakness policy if it's weaken thou it no longer checks

Same with Tyranitar.
Dumping a bunch of calcs is generally not useful to the discussion without good analysis of the calcs and why they're relevant to the topic.

To answer your question, though, Alolan Muk + Protect Mega Sableye stalls out non-Choice Specs Magearna's Fleur Cannon PP, and Alolan Muk can sort of deal some chip with Fire Blast. Dragon checks Magearna by being faster and preventing it from safely setting up with its many Ground- and Fire-type coverage moves. Ground does the same by OHKOing Magearna with its STAB Ground-type attacks before it becomes a problem. Fairy can more or less check Magearna with its own Magearna and/or Klefki with some skill involved; if it uses Fleur Cannon, Azumarill has time to Belly Drum safely as well. Rock and Ice are just bad types that lose to Magearna because of inherent problems, not simply because Magearna is a strong sweeper with type advantage.

Certainly, these checks are not the most ideal (when compared to say a Fire team's), but it's certainly not a situation where Magearna has no checks or a team is forced to run something like Mega Houndoom for it.
 

Acast

Classy af
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#20
This post isn't about Magearna and I'm not establishing new rules for the thread by posting this. The following are just recommendations for anyone that wants to post here.
  1. Shorter posts are better (as long as you're not posting one-liners). I get that you guys have a lot to say about this suspect and you have all these great reasons why you think the way you do, but no one is interested enough to read a novel about it. The more you write, the less people will want to read your opinions. Keep it concise and summarize wherever possible.
  2. Avoid repeating an argument that has already been posted. Quickly mentioning arguments that have already been made is fine, but don't go into detail when others have already done that work for you. If you have a new argument that hasn't been posted, that's great! Elaborate on it, but still be mindful about the length of your post.
  3. If your post ends up being longer, organize it. Break it into sections and give each section a header so it's easy to follow. Use paragraphs.
I want to reiterate that these are not rules. You're not required to follow them, but I strongly encourage following them anyway. It'll make communication much easier for everyone involved.
 
#21
Let's try to hold ourselves to high standards when it comes to the quality of posts in this thread. I've had to delete many one-liner shitposts already. Further shitposting may be referred for infraction consideration.


This sort of comment is exactly the kind that has derailed suspect discussion in the past. What's important is whether or not Magearna itself is broken and banworthy. Magearna is going to be banned from the suspect ladder in order to give us a point of comparison because we simply cannot know what a metagame without Magearna would look like, since it's been around this whole time. The metagame adapts to changes, as it has with all other bans and unbans. Please do not theorymon (or suggest others to) what the ban would do in this thread. If you want to make a comment about a potential post-Magearna-ban metagame, that's what the soon-to-be-made suspect ladder will show.

The relevant question is whether or not Magearna is broken. Almost all of the content in your post runs directly counter to the Monotype tiering philosophy. Comments like "It could increase overall type diversity and thus, types like Dark, Dragon (mega altaria and latias coming very soon), and even Water will have better chances in the metagame and are consequently going to have increased usage. Furthermore, Fairy and Steel would still be good with their tools they currently have" are irrelevant, as the tiering philosophy does not prefer one type to another. Whether or not Fairy and Steel would still be good or not does not matter; if Magearna is broken, it should be banned regardless of the resultant state of its two types. Other comments such as "So, even if Magearna isn't broken on its own, removing it from metagame could bring desirable results." are almost outright toxic to our suspect process, as that is not only simply not the way Monotype is tiered, but it's, once again, directly counter to our tiering philosophy, which explicitly states that a Pokemon being broken is an important criterion for whether it should be banned or not. The "adds or removes" portion is only relevant to tiering in the very small corner case of a type being overly powerful; it is not relevant to tiering if the element in question is suspected for potentially being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.

The so-called "consequences" of a ban on Magearna are mostly irrelevant to this suspect. Magearna is being suspected because it is potentially broken. Please don't try to drive this thread off topic.


Dumping a bunch of calcs is generally not useful to the discussion without good analysis of the calcs and why they're relevant to the topic.

To answer your question, though, Alolan Muk + Protect Mega Sableye stalls out non-Choice Specs Magearna's Fleur Cannon PP, and Alolan Muk can sort of deal some chip with Fire Blast. Dragon checks Magearna by being faster and preventing it from safely setting up with its many Ground- and Fire-type coverage moves. Ground does the same by OHKOing Magearna with its STAB Ground-type attacks before it becomes a problem. Fairy can more or less check Magearna with its own Magearna and/or Klefki with some skill involved; if it uses Fleur Cannon, Azumarill has time to Belly Drum safely as well. Rock and Ice are just bad types that lose to Magearna because of inherent problems, not simply because Magearna is a strong sweeper with type advantage.

Certainly, these checks are not the most ideal (when compared to say a Fire team's), but it's certainly not a situation where Magearna has no checks or a team is forced to run something like Mega Houndoom for it.
But you also don't know what set it will run too.

Magearna can easily set up trick room, shift gear, on a Pokemon it can wall. It can switch on say a Mandibuzz, Or Sharpedo and it has enough bulk to survive such attacks then proceed with Trick Room or Shift Gear then it becomes really hard to stop.

Let's not forget it also gets all those Soul Heart Boost for each OHKO it gets breaking thru fat walls. Mega Houndoom no longer can check it if it uses Trick Room/Shift Gear and has Farium Z and at 1+ ohkos with Aura Sphere/Fleur Cannon becoming a hard target to stop.

This isn't limited to Monotype Dark thou. This applies to every other Monotype Team. Say it switches in on Rotom-W and setups with Shift Gear Or Trick Room. Then proceeds with switching out to Magnezone which nope it can't switch because it has Aura Sphere, Zapdos? Farium Z does a lot and worse if it has Ice Beam. Xuritree , Trick Room is up can't outspeed. Tapu Koko Same,

Can't deal with it? Switch out Magearna for later .

Waiting its running AV? Now Shift Gear? Calm Mind? Trick Room? Farium Z? Steelium Z?Can't check it because different Pokemon check different sets

Magearna is also not suppose to handle every single threat by itself lets not forget when it faints you still have to deal with its other 5 team members. Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Azumarill, Celesteela, Heatran, Ferrothorn etc. Some which also give amazing Support to Magearna. The only reason why I would be against a ban is because it's slow and has common weaknesses but the fact that it can run a lot of sets, has excellent bulk and typing, good coverage, and hard to stop for certain teams once it setups would be why I would consider a Ban.
 
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#22
Let's try to hold ourselves to high standards when it comes to the quality of posts in this thread. I've had to delete many one-liner shitposts already. Further shitposting may be referred for infraction consideration.


This sort of comment is exactly the kind that has derailed suspect discussion in the past. What's important is whether or not Magearna itself is broken and banworthy. Magearna is going to be banned from the suspect ladder in order to give us a point of comparison because we simply cannot know what a metagame without Magearna would look like, since it's been around this whole time. The metagame adapts to changes, as it has with all other bans and unbans. Please do not theorymon (or suggest others to) what the ban would do in this thread. If you want to make a comment about a potential post-Magearna-ban metagame, that's what the soon-to-be-made suspect ladder will show.

The relevant question is whether or not Magearna is broken. Almost all of the content in your post runs directly counter to the Monotype tiering philosophy. Comments like "It could increase overall type diversity and thus, types like Dark, Dragon (mega altaria and latias coming very soon), and even Water will have better chances in the metagame and are consequently going to have increased usage. Furthermore, Fairy and Steel would still be good with their tools they currently have" are irrelevant, as the tiering philosophy does not prefer one type to another. Whether or not Fairy and Steel would still be good or not does not matter; if Magearna is broken, it should be banned regardless of the resultant state of its two types. Other comments such as "So, even if Magearna isn't broken on its own, removing it from metagame could bring desirable results." are almost outright toxic to our suspect process, as that is not only simply not the way Monotype is tiered, but it's, once again, directly counter to our tiering philosophy, which explicitly states that a Pokemon being broken is an important criterion for whether it should be banned or not. The "adds or removes" portion is only relevant to tiering in the very small corner case of a type being overly powerful; it is not relevant to tiering if the element in question is suspected for potentially being broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.

The so-called "consequences" of a ban on Magearna are mostly irrelevant to this suspect. Magearna is being suspected because it is potentially broken. Please don't try to drive this thread off topic.


Dumping a bunch of calcs is generally not useful to the discussion without good analysis of the calcs and why they're relevant to the topic.

To answer your question, though, Alolan Muk + Protect Mega Sableye stalls out non-Choice Specs Magearna's Fleur Cannon PP, and Alolan Muk can sort of deal some chip with Fire Blast. Dragon checks Magearna by being faster and preventing it from safely setting up with its many Ground- and Fire-type coverage moves. Ground does the same by OHKOing Magearna with its STAB Ground-type attacks before it becomes a problem. Fairy can more or less check Magearna with its own Magearna and/or Klefki with some skill involved; if it uses Fleur Cannon, Azumarill has time to Belly Drum safely as well. Rock and Ice are just bad types that lose to Magearna because of inherent problems, not simply because Magearna is a strong sweeper with type advantage.

Certainly, these checks are not the most ideal (when compared to say a Fire team's), but it's certainly not a situation where Magearna has no checks or a team is forced to run something like Mega Houndoom for it.
Thanks for your response! I would like to clarify several points, and most importantly, prove those points are not so irrelevant as you call them so.

To start with, the consequences I have mentioned are actually a good reason to make a judgement call on a suspect."Does the pokemon add or subtract from the metagame?" is still one of the most important questions to be taken into consideration, and has always been part of the suspect philosophy. Magearna might not be broken on its own, but that is not to say a ban should not be supported.

That being said, I really would like to reiteirate that those benefits aren't exactly aimed at those types, but rather meant to increase the diversity of sets and their usage in the metagame in order to reduce centralization and make the metagame more healthy in terms of skill. You already provided it yourself in that example that Magearna restricts Dark's teambuilding by forcing Alola-Muk to run Fire Blast (which fails to hit absolutely everything except Scizor, failing to 2HKO important threats like Skarmory and Ferrothorn), and even Protect on Mega-Sableye is sub-optimal due to its Magic Bounce ability. Here are calcs to show how a waste of slot Fire Blast is, and therefore why there is no reason to use it despite the small damage chip on a single Pokemon:

0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Ferrothorn: 156-184 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Steel)
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 144-170 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 100-118 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Furthermore, the argument used to support Dark's ability to beat Magearna is blatantly false. No skilled Magearna player is ever staying against Alola-Muk, when its teammates can simply wear A-Muk down with relative easy due to its lack of reliable recovery. Magearna will simply proceed to sweep the entire team once Alola-Muk is weakened or when it manages to burst down a Dark Pokemon with its Z-move.

Despite the calcs, I do acknowledge it has its own checks and counters, but that is not to say the way metagame has adapted to Magearna was actually healthy for it. I will reiterate that making Water, Dark and Dragon more viable/used is healthy for the metagame given the centralization of types that are currently used as a response to it.

Finally, please avoid using "theorymoning" in this discussion. It drains the objectivity of the topic, especially given 90% of the community is already familiarized with Magearna. Trying to foresee usage and diversity is still completely acceptable given what Steel was meant to beat before it had Magearna, and what it currently beats today with its presence.
 
#23
Let's try to hold ourselves to high standards when it comes to the quality of posts in this thread. I've had to delete many one-liner shitposts already. Further shitposting may be referred for infraction consideration.

The so-called "consequences" of a ban on Magearna are mostly irrelevant to this suspect. Magearna is being suspected because it is potentially broken. Please don't try to drive this thread off topic.


Dumping a bunch of calcs is generally not useful to the discussion without good analysis of the calcs and why they're relevant to the topic.

To answer your question, though, Alolan Muk + Protect Mega Sableye stalls out non-Choice Specs Magearna's Fleur Cannon PP, and Alolan Muk can sort of deal some chip with Fire Blast. Dragon checks Magearna by being faster and preventing it from safely setting up with its many Ground- and Fire-type coverage moves. Ground does the same by OHKOing Magearna with its STAB Ground-type attacks before it becomes a problem. Fairy can more or less check Magearna with its own Magearna and/or Klefki with some skill involved; if it uses Fleur Cannon, Azumarill has time to Belly Drum safely as well. Rock and Ice are just bad types that lose to Magearna because of inherent problems, not simply because Magearna is a strong sweeper with type advantage.

Certainly, these checks are not the most ideal (when compared to say a Fire team's), but it's certainly not a situation where Magearna has no checks or a team is forced to run something like Mega Houndoom for it.

"Dragon checks Magearna by being faster and preventing it from safely setting up with its many Ground- and Fire-type coverage moves."

Although there are some instances where Garchomp, Banded Dragonite, Specs hydreigon with their Ground and fire coverage, The only thing it does is check magearna to switch into Skarmory, Heatran, or celesteela which in turn turns the tables and leaves you in a checked position. This is Gen 7's version of immunity core. Not to mention the off-chance Magearna has air balloon causing Garchomp to get walled and allowing magearna to set up that trick room. Klefki can set up Reflect and Light screen and allow Magearna to come in and Sweep the floor with dragon. Ground vs Steel is still a winnable matchup for steel because mons like celesteela and Ferrothorn can wear down Garchomp, Excadrill, hippowdown to get them into range for Magearna to kill with Ice beam and aura sphere. Although it's not a guaranteed win without Magearna, Ground still has trouble with the matchup after Landorus is gone.

Extra irrelevent meme: Electric and flying Rock and Ice are just bad types that lose to zygarde-10% Magearna because of inherent problems, not simply because zygarde-10% Magearna is a strong sweeper with type advantage.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#24
Thanks for your response! I would like to clarify several points, and most importantly, prove those points are not so irrelevant as you call them so.

To start with, the consequences I have mentioned are actually a good reason to make a judgement call on a suspect."Does the pokemon add or subtract from the metagame?" is still one of the most important questions to be taken into consideration, and has always been part of the suspect philosophy. Magearna might not be broken on its own, but that is not to say a ban should not be supported.
You are incorrectly applying the tiering philosophy, so I'll take this time to clarify it for you. The question "Does the pokemon add or subtract from the metagame?" is only relevant if and only if the suspect is about a type being overly powerful. As a result, it is not applicable to this suspect. This has been true for every suspect in Monotype as far as I know. This isn't simply my interpretation either:

[8/6/16, 2:42:00 PM] Eien: The collateral damage / adds vs subtracts from metagame point only refers to when we're trying to nerf a type right? So if a Pokemon is deemed broken, then we should objectively ban it regardless of collateral damage right?
[8/6/16, 3:01:09 PM] scpinion: That was how I intended that to be applied. If I recall correctly the number one rule in the philosophy is about broken, unhealthy, etc.
[8/6/16, 3:02:16 PM] scpinion: The "does it add to our does it subtract" was to be applied when a suspect fell outside the three explicit rules
Any further discussion of "adds or subtracts from the metagame" is in fact off-topic because it is not within the scope of this suspect. As all off-topic posts and shitposts are deleted in any thread, and especially in a suspect thread, if your post is about whether there are benefits to banning or not banning Magearna regardless of whether it is broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, it may be deleted without even further warning. The original post for this suspect thread will be updated to more explicitly express this fact.

juleocesar said:
Finally, please avoid using "theorymoning" in this discussion. It drains the objectivity of the topic, especially given 90% of the community is already familiarized with Magearna. Trying to foresee usage and diversity is still completely acceptable given what Steel was meant to beat before it had Magearna, and what it currently beats today with its presence.
The concern was with requesting people to theorymon with regards to whether the subsequent metagame would be benefited with or without Magearna, something that is off-topic as I reiterated above. Your other discussion about whether Alolan Muk and Mega Sableye should run Fire Blast and Protect is perfectly acceptable.

Feel free to create a conversation with the forum moderating team (Acast, Vid, and myself) if you want to discuss thread rules. You are also free, as always, to create a conversation with the council (1 True Lycan, Acast, Clearly, Paleo, rnbs, Vid, and myself) if you wish to discuss the tiering philosophy. This thread is meant for the Magearna suspect only.
 
#25
The difference of scizor vs ice and mag vs ice and rock is that ice and rock have checks to scizor unlike magearna and although both types are inherently flawed I've never felt so helpless vs a specific mon while playing(and that's counting megagross and megacham). I won't argue that without magearna ice and rock would suddenly become viable as that would be unrelated to discussion of magearna on the meta currently(also I seriously doubt that they would). But it doesn't change the fact that magearna solos those types along with dark,dragon,fighting,flying(if boltbeam) and makes the meta even more top heavy than usual. It can also be tailored depending on the team to skew the matchup vs a few more types like ground, water, and electric(basically anything that doesn't resist fairy).You can't compare the threat of scizor or something like megagross to magearna because magearna has almost no checks vs the types mentioned before(with the usual tr/shift set). I would compare it to last gen talonflame vs grass/fighting or kartana vs ground/water. Of course we could just write off all of these types as bad and continue playing in a meta with only half of the types being usable with all of the mag spam.

Note: Don't bring up suboptimal muk sets like a decent player would even stay in vs muk with the team support mag has.

Tldr: It's to easy to solo with mag vs half of the meta(albeit the bottom half) even without counting the ridiculous team support that makes fairy the best and steel a great type.

Note 2: Not arguing how viable those types will be without mag(as that would be a theory and not reliavant to how broken mag is in the current meta) but I am arguing that magearna makes matchups that shouldn't be 80/20 magearna team incredibly skewed towards mag and gives another click x matchup to those types.
 
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