Metagame SM Monotype Suspect #3: Shadow Tag

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Eien

I'll face myself
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Monotype Leader
#1

Welcome to the third SM Monotype suspect! Shadow Tag has always been an incredibly powerful ability in competitive Pokemon, and its influence on the Monotype metagame has not diminished over the past couple of generations. The primary concern is in preventing all non-Ghost-types from switching out, which enables Shadow Tag Pokemon to reliably remove threats without the option of realistic counterplay from the opponent.

Gothitelle is the most recognized of the two main Shadow Tag users, as it is capable of running many different sets to fulfill any role the team requires. Its Choice Specs set is a respectable wallbreaker that is capable of removing key threats such as Heatran while having Trick as an option to cripple a trapped wall. If it runs Colbur Berry, Gothitelle can use Thunder Wave to effectively cripple any of the many fast Dark-type attackers that Psychic often has trouble with, such as Mega Sharpedo and Greninja. To make it even harder to predict against Gothitelle, it can even run Trick with Calm Mind and Rest, allowing it to be a devastating sweeper that breaks most balance teams.

Wobbuffet is much more straightforward and is capable of taking on a huge range of threats with its only set, including Alolan Muk, Heracross, and Diggersby. Although it is not used as often as Gothitelle is, Wobbuffet still exposes the power of Shadow Tag preventing the oppoonent's switching when it is able to assuredly KO many of the tier's strongest attackers.

This suspect test is for Shadow Tag as an ability. While Gothitelle is the most notable user, the problems that Shadow Tag can pose appear in Wobbuffet and can even manifest in Gothitelle's pre-evolution Gothorita. Because the linking factor is their shared ability and to gauge the effect this ability has had on the metagame, the Monotype council has voted to suspect Shadow Tag.

In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the Monotype suspect ladder in which Shadow Tag is not allowed. The requirements for qualification are 2850 COIL or more in 75 games or fewer. The B-value for this suspect test is 9.0. The suspect test will end Tuesday October 24 at 11:59 EDT (GMT-4). You will then have three days after it ends to cast your vote. Shadow Tag will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Shadow Tag suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.

Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. The Monotype tiering philosophy was updated and changed slightly. You can view the updated philosophy here.

To earn 2850 COIL, you must have at least a certain GXE corresponding to the number of games you have played:
Code:
GXE | Games
86      34
84      38
82      45
81      49
80      54
79      61
78      69
77.5    75
This means if your final GXE is below 77.5% when you hit 75 games, you will not have 2850 COIL and will not have met the requirements.

To calculate for yourself the required number of games for any given GXE, compute:
N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2850)

Tagging The Immortal to set up the suspect ladder. Thank you!
 
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#3
I'm pretty much neutral on this suspect but I can see why STag would deserve a ban. Being able to trap a potential threat and eliminate it in order for another sweeper to clean up with super powerful. If I decide to ladder for this suspect, I'll most likely vote ban unless future posts convince me otherwise. STag is kind of situational for Psychic but for types it can dent like Steel, Poison, some Dark and Water builds, etc., it's a big threat.
 

Acast

Classy af
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Moderator
#5
Since Monotype is official now, are there any better chances we'll be getting a suspect tour or two?
Being official has no influence on whether the council decides to host suspect tours. That being said, I'm sure they're not out of the question. It just hasn't been discussed.

If one of our current council members wants to correct me or provide more detail, please do.
 
#7
If one was to ladder with an alt, how would the voting process take place?
There would be a thread where you get a screenshot of your ladder alt and the proof that you've reached the reqs. On the screenshot you'd have to prove that you are that person, like have the name in the top right hand so that the council knows you are not impersonating someone else's reqs. Once all that happens you submit your vote to Eien through smogon messages.
 
#10
I have been meaning to give my complete opinion on this suspect for a while now, and here they are. I’m sure most know my thoughts on Gothitelle and Shadow Tag in the metagame at this point, but I’ve been wanting to go into full detail in order to convince voters that Shadow Tag is an element that absolutely should go from Monotype. Let’s begin by looking at the two primary users of the ability, and what exactly makes them banworthy in Monotype. Please bear with me, as this will be a long post.

——-


Gothitelle!
The majority of people deem Gothitelle to be the best user of Shadow Tag. With lackluster stats and a typing that does not benefit Psychic, it’s pretty remarkable how Shadow Tag still manages to make this Pokemon so overwhelmingly broken and uncompetitively good in Monotype. The reason for this is very simple. Gothitelle can effectively choose which threats it wants to eliminate, and proceed to do it with certainty. Because of this, it can easily dismantle common defensive cores on types like Flying, Water, and Normal. Countering Gothitelle is impossible because of Shadow Tag's uncompetitive nature which forces the opponent to constantly double switch to prevent being trapped. The only real way to play around it is to simply not get trapped. To do this, the player has to ensure that they make the correct play each and every single time that the opponent brings out Gothitelle. In addition, the player cannot hope to get a kill with a trap-able threat, as Gothitelle will simply come in for free and revenge kill it 100% of the time. This is a very unrealistic win scenario if you are the player facing it. Gothitelle is extremely easy to use and extremely hard to play against, and this inhibits unskillful play and is an example of Gothitelle being an uncompetitive Pokemon in Monotype.

I mentioned Flying, Water, and Normal in my previous paragraph, but Gothitelle is a good wincon in many more matchups. Gothitelle’s HP Ground can easily trap and eliminate Heatran on Steel and Fire, allowing Choice Scarf Victini to basically win the matchup against Steel in tandem with Gothitelle, which allows Victini to sweep through with Blue Flare. Against Ground, it can trap and eliminate Seismitoad and Gastrodon, as well as get a free nuke on Hippowdon thanks to Energy Ball. This can also allow a Pokemon like Mega Slowbro to basically win the game. Going back to Flying, Water, and Normal, Gothitelle traps several key Pokemon on these types such as Mantine, Toxapex, Staraptor, and Chansey. Gothitelle is a great asset against more offensive teams as well, as it can use it’s decent bulk to live any one hit from an offensive Pokemon and OHKO it back with its coverage. A premier example of this is Mega Diancie. Gothitelle can easily live a Moonblast/Diamond Storm from it and proceed to OHKO it with Energy Ball on the Choice Specs set. So to restate my previous points, Gothitelle forces the opponent to make the correct play every single turn, which is unrealistic and demands an unhealthy amount of prediction on its opponents. Trapping a Pokemon with certainty is never good nor healthy for the metagame, and it should be clear as to why that is. Switching out in order to beat the Pokemon in front of you is an integral part of competitive Pokemon, and an ability that completely negates that can only be described as uncompetitive.



Wobbuffet!
Wobbuffet gets a whopping 4 viable moves, them being Counter, Mirror Coat, Encore, and Destiny Bond. Its low defenses are patched up by its amazing 190 HP stat, and it has access to Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag Wobbuffet is a giant threat to a large amount of teams, essentially eliminating every choice-locked Pokemon as well as threats like Alolan Muk, which it can trap and eliminate securely. The Colbur Berry set allows it to trap and eliminate Hydreigon, Greninja, and many others. Access to Encore means it can stop setup very reliably. Although Wobbuffet does not have the same amount of versatility and power as Gothitelle, it still does exactly what makes Gothitelle uncompetitive, and it does it equally as well. While I believe Pokemon like Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are broken, they are not broken in the same sense as something like Magearna, for example. I think voters should keep this in mind as they cast their vote- that the ability should be banned because of its uncompetitive aspect of completely preventing any and all forms of counterplay. Going back to Wobbuffet though, one clear dinstinction is that Wob will always do something in nearly every matchup due to the presence of choiced Pokemon plus Wobbuffet’s ability to live most hits and OHKOing them reliably. It lives Return from Choice Band Diggersby, for example, and KOs it with Counter.



Gothorita...?
While it may seem amusing that I am including a Pokemon like Gothorita here, it says a lot about how good Shadow Tag is. With absolutely garbage stats, there’d be no reason to use Gothorita on any team. In reality, Gothorita traps many of the same threats that Gothitelle does (Mantine, Skarmory, Heatran, etc) which is just a clear case of the ability being banworthy (not the Pokemon.) Is Gothorita a broken Pokemon? It’s not. However, when an otherwise completely useless Pokemon is actually useful just because of its ability, (it’s not right now because Gothitelle exists, but you get the point.) it says a lot about the ability. I know Smogon’s main usage tiers have nothing to with Monotype, but every Shadow Tag user is PU or lower right now, which paints a picture as to how bad these Pokemon are without Shadow Tag.


Verdict
Shadow Tag prohibits one of the core aspects of competitive Pokemon, which is switching. While the “why don’t we suspect test Arena Trap, it’s basically the same thing” argument will likely rise up, its not a good one. Gothitelle and Wobbuffet lopside many matchups in Psychic's favor thanks to their coverage or general usefulness in Wobbuffet’s case. Dugtrio generally traps threats that Ground already beats, with the exception of Pokemon like Tapu Bulu.

It should be clear right now as to why Shadow Tag is a banworthy element in Monotype. All of these reasons are why I firmly believe Shadow Tag should be banned from Monotype.

tl;dr BAN IT
 
#11
Ban it.
Gothitelle is uncompetitively good with it, uncompetitive for monotype and Gothstalling.
Wobbuffet can be a giant threat with the ability as it has a gargantuan HP stat, has Encore, can either OHKO with Mirror Coat or Counter easily due to Encore and Destiny Bond, both of the mons are too good with the abilities so ban it. And I want em to be banned from this. Can't wait for Verlis to see this thread and complain about it since he blames Smogon on everything and thinks that ability or mon bans are bad!
 
#12
I'm just going to drop in and say that I don't find shadow tag very ban worthy- Wobbufet and Gothitelle can indeed remove semi-stall pokemon quite reliably- However- these are mostly mons on team archtypes that Psychic already has more reliable options for- and in matchups where you would want a non-standard mon to improve performance against, they do nothing if slapped haphazardly onto even a solid psychic team core... A very gimmicky price to pay for matchups that are only moderately likely to occur statistically, especially relative to the proprtion of ones that the unmodified team would be preferrable...

Really, the way I see this suspect test, is that it seems more motivated by status anxiety about monotype's reputation as an official tier and a ridiculous attempt to build credibility by jumping on board the "we can spot what is uncompetitive" train that was the XY OU Stag suspect- The difference being that there goth had major justification as an odd pick in tours due to team support, while in monotype- outside of like unofficial "league play" where you know what the opponet's type will be- using goth, and especially wobb, lowers the efficiency of both ladder teams and tour teams compared to standard psychic teams.
 
#13
Thank you for bringing up this argument as I was meaning to make a post about it anyway. While your whole stance seems fair, there’s a few points in your post that I strongly disagree with. I’ll go into your points one by one for the sake of organizing the post.

Wobbufet and Gothitelle can indeed remove semi-stall pokemon quite reliably- However- these are mostly mons on team archtypes that Psychic already has more reliable options for-
This point honestly seems very confusing to me, as you claim that they can remove threats with ease. However, you are also saying that there are “more reliable options” on the main matchups that these Pokemon are so clearly broken in (Flying, Water, Normal, Steel, Fairy, etc.) You don’t name any of these more reliable options. The truth of the matter is that there are NO superior options, as the majority of wincons you can think of can be checked or countered by a teammate that the opponent switches in to. Obviously, the player is unable to do this against Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, further proving this point wrong.

they do nothing if slapped haphazardly onto even a solid psychic team core... A very gimmicky price to pay for matchups that are only moderately likely to occur statistically, especially relative to the proprtion of ones that the unmodified team would be preferrable...
This point is just blatantly wrong. There is nothing gimmicky about Gothitelle nor Wobbuffet as they can and are used on most teams. In fact, in the last Monotype Premier League, Gothitelle on Psychic was used to great success and played a great part in some of the players’ wins. It’s a shame that replays got wiped, because e: that’s the one, thanks! Anty’s replay from last season just proves how good it is. Also, you are assuming that these Pokemon are ONLY good in these matchups, when that could not be further from the truth. Wobbuffet specifically is able to serve a viable purpose against nearly every single matchup in the game. Gothitelle can trap problematic threats on common types that allows Psychic to win easily. There are very, VERY few matchups where Gothitelle is an unwanted option.

Really, the way I see this suspect test, is that it seems more motivated by status anxiety about monotype's reputation as an official tier and a ridiculous attempt to build credibility by jumping on board the "we can spot what is uncompetitive" train that was the XY OU Stag suspect-
Really not going to comment much on this since it has nothing to do with the Shadow Tag discussion.

while in monotype- outside of like unofficial "league play" where you know what the opponet's type will be- using goth, and especially wobb, lowers the efficiency of both ladder teams and tour teams compared to standard psychic teams.
Gothitelle Psychic is standard Psychic. I doubt MPL counts as unofficial “league play” so this is wrong too.
 
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#14
This point is just blatantly wrong. There is nothing gimmicky about Gothitelle nor Wobbuffet as they can and are used on most teams. In fact, in the last Monotype Premier League, Gothitelle on Psychic was used to great success and played a great part in some of the players’ wins. It’s a shame that replays got wiped, because Anty’s replay from last season just proves how good it is.
Idk about others but old replays are back for me, here's Anty's match w/ Gothi vs Tran/Steel as a whole
 
#15
This point honestly seems very confusing to me, as you claim that they can remove threats with ease. However, you are also saying that there are “more reliable options” on the main matchups that these Pokemon are so clearly broken in (Flying, Water, Normal, Steel, Fairy, etc.) You don’t name any of these more reliable options. The truth of the matter is that there are NO superior options, as the majority of wincons you can think of can be checked or countered by a teammate that the opponent switches in to. Obviously, the player is unable to do this against Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, further proving this point wrong..
I'm gonna break my months-long streak of not posting anything to debunk this argument. While I personally think Shadow Tag should be erased from the game or made into an ability that only has in-game use (mainly to catch roaming pokemon like the Gen2 beasts), this argument is not the basis for why it deserves a ban. Gen 6 Ubers tier decided that Shadow Tag was a contentious enough issue to warrant a suspect test, and while the results were controversial, this highlights that in a tier where you could build a team of 6 broken mons without Shadow Tag, it is still considered un-competitive.

Looking at Gen7 monotype, can Psychic build a good, relevant team without Goth/Wobb? How popular / overused is Shadow Tag now? Will Psychic be a top-tier type even without Shadow Tag? When concerned with the prospect of banning Shadow Tag, the answers to these questions do not matter, as things are not banned based on usage, but based on how broken or un-competitive they are.

However, it is one thing to say that Shadow Tag is un-competitive in the same way that OHKO moves are; even though OHKO moves are usually a crap strategy compared to the many other things you could do instead, these turn the game "Pokemon" into 3-cup shuffle. Shadow Tag does retain some of this game-breaking characteristic, but in the hands of a skilled player it makes the game very lopsided in the Psychic-user's favor in some matchups:

- Vs. Poison: If Alolan Muk doesn't start carrying shed shell, it is allowed to kill one mon and that's it, since Wobb will come in and end you 100% of the time. GLHF with the other 4 psychic mons without a dark type LOL

- Vs. Normal: God help you if Gothitelle (or Gothorita) switches in vs. Chansey / Porygon 2 (or both in the same match) since there is very little you can do to save your pokes at this point

- Vs. Flying: Got a defensive core of Zapdos/Mantine? Better not leave it in vs. a threat you're trying to wall on Psychic, since a Shadow Tag user can switch in and turn your "core" into one or zero core members left (and the threat will come back in afterwards, with your best answer to it erased from the match)..

- Vs. Grass: That Mega-Venusaur / Ferrothorn sure does look like a good defensive backbone, what with their resistances and immunities... would be a shame if someone... Shadow Tagged it and dismantled any hope you had at tanking these hits LOL

Now I could go on and on for several matchups similar to this, and yes there are some matchups where Shadow Tag is less useful than a wallbreaker or tank would be (such as Ghost, where Shadow Tag is 100% useless). But the above examples are only a taste of what Shadow Tag enables for this metagame, and the fact that 100% of Psychic users don't all use this exact strategy is irrelevant when debating how broken / un-competitive it is.
 
#16
Goth Psychic, the shadow tag meta - it was a problem in generation 6 and has returned in gen 7 and now that monotype is official I think it should follow the footsteps of the other official tiers and ban stag - it should have been suspected last gen as well. The fact that not every type has a counter measure to it is annoying, and running shed shell just to prepare for one type of style is hard enough to do when you have to craft a team of 6 mons that are sharing a similar type to prepare again 17 other types, it just isn't realistic. Goth and gothorita together is a pain, I don't think wobb. is necessarily an issue, but the fact that gothorita used to come in and just use a scarf to trick or spam tickle to weaken you for goth to then calm mind up and sweep you and pick off your defensive core one by one is ludacris, atleast with dugtrio's ability it's a grounded pokemon that gets trapped, only thing that's saving you from stag is if you're using ghost which can become a nonfactor if they have meloetta and you're a choiced locked gengar into shadow ball, cause then if its sub cm meloetta it's over, the ghost user is going to lose to a sub calm mind meloetta. So that being said, while they do somewhat break stall- it's done in a unhealthy way that negatively impacts the meta, it isn't fun being trapped by a mon to know that there is nothing you can do about it. Type advantage is a thing, but when a mon's presence is affecting you just because you know they have control of you switching out is annoying, cause there is no "check" or counter on every type to offer.
ban stag
 
#17
I'm gonna break my months-long streak of not posting anything to debunk this argument. While I personally think Shadow Tag should be erased from the game or made into an ability that only has in-game use (mainly to catch roaming pokemon like the Gen2 beasts), this argument is not the basis for why it deserves a ban. Gen 6 Ubers tier decided that Shadow Tag was a contentious enough issue to warrant a suspect test, and while the results were controversial, this highlights that in a tier where you could build a team of 6 broken mons without Shadow Tag, it is still considered un-competitive.

Looking at Gen7 monotype, can Psychic build a good, relevant team without Goth/Wobb? How popular / overused is Shadow Tag now? Will Psychic be a top-tier type even without Shadow Tag? When concerned with the prospect of banning Shadow Tag, the answers to these questions do not matter, as things are not banned based on usage, but based on how broken or un-competitive they are.

However, it is one thing to say that Shadow Tag is un-competitive in the same way that OHKO moves are; even though OHKO moves are usually a crap strategy compared to the many other things you could do instead, these turn the game "Pokemon" into 3-cup shuffle. Shadow Tag does retain some of this game-breaking characteristic, but in the hands of a skilled player it makes the game very lopsided in the Psychic-user's favor in some matchups:

- Vs. Poison: If Alolan Muk doesn't start carrying shed shell, it is allowed to kill one mon and that's it, since Wobb will come in and end you 100% of the time. GLHF with the other 4 psychic mons without a dark type LOL

- Vs. Normal: God help you if Gothitelle (or Gothorita) switches in vs. Chansey / Porygon 2 (or both in the same match) since there is very little you can do to save your pokes at this point

- Vs. Flying: Got a defensive core of Zapdos/Mantine? Better not leave it in vs. a threat you're trying to wall on Psychic, since a Shadow Tag user can switch in and turn your "core" into one or zero core members left (and the threat will come back in afterwards, with your best answer to it erased from the match)..

- Vs. Grass: That Mega-Venusaur / Ferrothorn sure does look like a good defensive backbone, what with their resistances and immunities... would be a shame if someone... Shadow Tagged it and dismantled any hope you had at tanking these hits LOL

Now I could go on and on for several matchups similar to this, and yes there are some matchups where Shadow Tag is less useful than a wallbreaker or tank would be (such as Ghost, where Shadow Tag is 100% useless). But the above examples are only a taste of what Shadow Tag enables for this metagame, and the fact that 100% of Psychic users don't all use this exact strategy is irrelevant when debating how broken / un-competitive it is.
Looking at Gen7 monotype, can Psychic build a good, relevant team without Goth/Wobb? How popular / overused is Shadow Tag now? Will Psychic be a top-tier type even without Shadow Tag? Yes. Not as popular as you'd think and Yes it'd still be Top tier. Not every Psychic team has Gothitelle or Wobbuffet because they each had 18% usage in the most recent stat usage. If only 9/25 Psychic Teams run Gothitelle or Wobbuffet does that mean the other 16 psychic teams are poorly built? Can you give example as to how effective trapping is on the common cores of monotype?
 
#18
Looking at Gen7 monotype, can Psychic build a good, relevant team without Goth/Wobb? How popular / overused is Shadow Tag now? Will Psychic be a top-tier type even without Shadow Tag? Yes. Not as popular as you'd think and Yes it'd still be Top tier. Not every Psychic team has Gothitelle or Wobbuffet because they each had 18% usage in the most recent stat usage. If only 9/25 Psychic Teams run Gothitelle or Wobbuffet does that mean the other 16 psychic teams are poorly built? Can you give example as to how effective trapping is on the common cores of monotype?
Stag vs Steel > To let Victini wipeout steel, people ran hpground on gothitelle that is capable of 1 shotting heatran. Then it is a very easy sweep.
Stag vs Normal > Gothitelle is capable of learning trick, and ruin the double eviolite core with switching in almost safely, then set up calm mind or whatever to win.
Stag vs Flying > Gothitelle is Capable of trapping mantine,celesteela and skarmory and eliminating them by thunderbolt.
Stag vs Poison > Once alolamuk is dead to wobbufet game is over for you pretty much.
Stag vs Grass > Goth is capable of eliminating megasaur easily, or tear down ferrothorn etc with tricking choice locked item.
Stag vs Water > Goth can just trap whatever and kill any mon that is not swampert/gastrodon/seismitoad. Or if it runs energyball it can also kill those lol.


Examples can go further for different types and different cores if you want to.

About your other questions, stuff can be banned for being unhealthy for the meta, even if they dont have any proper usage. ( I'd suggest you to check mega sableye suspect for OU last gen. It was not broken at all, was checked by at least 10 mons in tier and had about 10 other mons completely countering it, had about 6% usage but he ended up getting banned because its presence on stall teams was fairly broken and was rated unhealthy.) That being said, psychic is already strong enough on its own, has a great offense capabilities ( M gallade, latios, latiasmega ,ddance mew ,victini,alakazam) and has great defensive mons to run balance. ( slowbro / slowbromega , celebi , bronzong, utility mew , deoxys forms , latias.). A type like this clearly doesnt need a trapper to be strong. It was dangerous before and it will be dangerous if shadow tag gets banned. ( I'd like to also mention that half of the teams I see on the suspect ladder is smub's psychic HO team.)
 
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#19
Not to mention eliminating Hippowdon so Band Exca can't clean in the sand, maybe eliminating Mandibuzz on Sableye-less Dark and letting a niche Bulk Up Drain Punch M-Gallade sweep, chipping either Araquanid or Armaldo on Bug for Victini to clean up. All the good examples kinda got taken already lol. It all involves crippling or destroying a team's defensive backbone, though, and in Monotype, where all Pokemon MUST share a type, it becomes easier to dismantle the rest of the team afterwards with the walls either gone or nigh-useless because of the way the tier is designed.

Making a strong argument on what Shadow Tag adds to the game regardless of how uncommon you think it is or how much of a bandwagon move it is would probably be appreciated right now with the tilt for a ban coming from most of the previous comments. Also hope y'all are laddering for for reqs, would be pitiful to have our first official suspect have so little participation.
 
#20
There would be a thread where you get a screenshot of your ladder alt and the proof that you've reached the reqs. On the screenshot you'd have to prove that you are that person, like have the name in the top right hand so that the council knows you are not impersonating someone else's reqs. Once all that happens you submit your vote to Eien through smogon messages.
Since Monotype is official now the voting happens in the blind voting subforum rather than Eien or Paleo's pms
 
#21
Is STAG even the right suspect to have, if there is a problem?

I'm gonna break my months-long streak of not posting anything to debunk this argument. While I personally think Shadow Tag should be erased from the game or made into an ability that only has in-game use (mainly to catch roaming pokemon like the Gen2 beasts), this argument is not the basis for why it deserves a ban. Gen 6 Ubers tier decided that Shadow Tag was a contentious enough issue to warrant a suspect test, and while the results were controversial, this highlights that in a tier where you could build a team of 6 broken mons without Shadow Tag, it is still considered un-competitive.
Trapping abilities play a much different role in monotype in OU, ubers, or other tiers. For example, the ability Arena Trap, which traps almost as many mons as Shadow Tag does, is clearly not a problem in monotype, although it was recently banned in OU. Given the nature of monotype, saying "STAG traps things, and is therefore noncompetitive" isn't really a good argument to have. It is worth noting that STAG is most effective vs defensive teams, and given that monotype tends to be more offensive than OU by the nature of the tier, it's not entirely clear if STAG is the problem in this environment.

Stag vs Steel > To let Victini wipeout steel, people ran hpground on gothitelle that is capable of 1 shotting heatran. Then it is a very easy sweep.
Stag vs Normal > Gothitelle is capable of learning trick, and ruin the double eviolite core with switching in almost safely, then set up calm mind or whatever to win.
Stag vs Flying > Gothitelle is Capable of trapping mantine,celesteela and skarmory and eliminating them by thunderbolt.
Stag vs Poison > Once alolamuk is dead to wobbufet game is over for you pretty much.
Stag vs Grass > Goth is capable of eliminating megasaur easily, or tear down ferrothorn etc with tricking choice locked item.
Stag vs Water > Goth can just trap whatever and kill any mon that is not swampert/gastrodon/seismitoad. Or if it runs energyball it can also kill those lol.


Examples can go further for different types and different cores if you want to.
The portrayal of the matchup of STAG vs steel isn't really fair. The matchup is still fairly competitive. First of all, gothelle has to first actaully trap heatran, which usually means a predict with tini (using u-turn on the heatran switchin), as tini is usually choiced and using a choiced fire STAB on a heatran is bad. Moreover, since heatran commonly holds a balloon, psychic has to pop the balloon first before attempting to trap it with gothelle.

Even when heatran gets trapped and killed turn 2, as seen in Anty's match w/ Gothi vs Tran/Steel as a whole, psychic still has to deal with threats such as SD bisharp, SD doublade, and SD scizor. In fact, if not for a zen headbutt flinch, the steel user would have won the game.

For the matchup of STAG vs flying; gothelle is often a liability after it traps the intended target. Assuming the flying user is using a balanced or offensive team, after goth traps celes (or maintine) with tbolt, lando I/T or Thundy-T can come in and setup for free or fire off a powerful attacking move, costing momentum, and possibly a mon. Moreover, vs offensive flying, goth might not even have any relevant targets to trap, making it a wasted slot in the matchup.

VS normal, gothelle does obvious work but again, like the steel mu, a) goth has to actually trap the threat, and b) Psychic still has to be concerned with possibly getting swept by powerful sweepers such as z-conversion porygonz. The game does not end once chansey is trapped.

STAG admittedly broken vs poison, but this is just one matchup

VS grass, this matchup is bad for grass, but this isn't really due to the fault of STAG. Things like Cosmic power sigilith already 6-0 grass, and grass has a hard time dealing with standard threats such as victini regardless. Grass is still losing this mu a vast majority of the time and banning STAG doesn't really change this; this is just due to the nature of the type.

VS water, again, goth has to first trap the threat, and after the threat is trapped the psychic user still has to deal with powerful threats such as mega sharpedo, mega gyrados, z gyra, and z manaphy, all which are capable of sweeping psychic. The water user has an advantage vs psychic, STAG or no STAG.

Not to mention eliminating Hippowdon so Band Exca can't clean in the sand, maybe eliminating Mandibuzz on Sableye-less Dark and letting a niche Bulk Up Drain Punch M-Gallade sweep, chipping either Araquanid or Armaldo on Bug for Victini to clean up. All the good examples kinda got taken already lol. It all involves crippling or destroying a team's defensive backbone, though, and in Monotype, where all Pokemon MUST share a type, it becomes easier to dismantle the rest of the team afterwards with the walls either gone or nigh-useless because of the way the tier is designed.
It's harder to trap hippo than just saying "Trap it!", because goth must be able to KO hippo from full to do so given hippo's access to whirlwind and eject button. Moreover, the ground user can (and will often) switch hippo out after sending it in to preserve hippo in order to retain the ability to set sand.

Goth eliminating mandi vs dark isn't really uncompetitive; if anything, it serves to make the mu more competitive because psychic should be losing the mu 90% of the time regardless.

VS Bug--I don't know this mu that well so I can't say anything, perhaps bug users might say something?

Even if there is a problem, it's not entirely clear if shadow tag is the right suspect, since arena trap appears to be perfectly fine in monotype. If there is a problem, it lies in gothelle's effectiveness in trapping certain targets, and not trapping as a whole.
 

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#22
Even when heatran gets trapped and killed turn 2, as seen in Anty's match w/ Gothi vs Tran/Steel as a whole, psychic still has to deal with threats such as SD bisharp, SD doublade, and SD scizor. In fact, if not for a zen headbutt flinch, the steel user would have won the game.
I'm hella strawmanning here but the steel user had two chances to try and win the game, once was to set up again after he got flinched, and another to set up when Slowbro was switched in. In the first scenario, I can't understand why he /didn't/ set up again because he definitely could've unless he gets flinched or critted again, because zen headbutt wouldn't kill:

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 51-60 (15.8 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO

And you can tell from the replay itself that it wouldn't kill, zen never did more than 20% so I don't understand why they're attributing the loss to the crit flinch. The second scenario with slowbro admittedly was probably a 50/50 but it was still obvious that Anty has to switch out and get regen boost otherwise he'd die to sneak. And slowbro would definitely die to sneak at +6 after rocks so Anty's only play to win the game was switching out to get a regen boost, but he could've taken the risk and stayed in thinking he'd SD instead of sneaking.. that's much more of a guessing game though, but I do believe the misplay against Medicham is what cost him the game, and he got rightfully punished for it.
 
#23
I'm hella strawmanning here but the steel user had two chances to try and win the game, once was to set up again after he got flinched, and another to set up when Slowbro was switched in. In the first scenario, I can't understand why he /didn't/ set up again because he definitely could've unless he gets flinched or critted again, because zen headbutt wouldn't kill:

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 51-60 (15.8 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO

And you can tell from the replay itself that it wouldn't kill, zen never did more than 20% so I don't understand why they're attributing the loss to the crit flinch. The second scenario with slowbro admittedly was probably a 50/50 but it was still obvious that Anty has to switch out and get regen boost otherwise he'd die to sneak. And slowbro would definitely die to sneak at +6 after rocks so Anty's only play to win the game was switching out to get a regen boost, but he could've taken the risk and stayed in thinking he'd SD instead of sneaking.. that's much more of a guessing game though, but I do believe the misplay against Medicham is what cost him the game, and he got rightfully punished for it.
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 17-20 (5.2 - 6.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Doublade was at 23%. Zen-headbutt + BP has the potential to kill (the combination does 21 - 24.8%, and going for this risks getting crit/flinched again). The steel user probably should have gone for the roll and just SDed instead of sneaking, but to call it a misplay seems a bit harsh.

Regardless, the match was hardly decided as soon as goth killed heatran, and still had to be played out. Whether the steel user lost by a misplay or a crit flinch doesn't really change the argument at hand. The match clearly shows the matchup isn't "Stag vs Steel > To let Victini wipeout steel, people ran hpground on gothitelle that is capable of 1 shotting heatran. Then it is a very easy sweep.", as Perishing Song claims.
 
#24
Is STAG even the right suspect to have, if there is a problem?
It’s absolutely the right suspect to have. I’ll break it down for you.

For example, the ability Arena Trap, which traps almost as many mons as Shadow Tag does, is clearly not a problem in monotype, although it was recently banned in OU. Given the nature of monotype, saying "STAG traps things, and is therefore noncompetitive" isn't really a good argument to have. It is worth noting that STAG is most effective vs defensive teams, and given that monotype tends to be more offensive than OU by the nature of the tier, it's not entirely clear if STAG is the problem in this environment
There is just so much wrong with this statement. You compared Shadow Tag with Arena Trap, which is not justifiable at all in Monotype as the users of Arena Trap and the users of Shadow Tag serve drastically different purposes. First of all, Arena Trap does NOT trap “almost as many mons as shadow tag does,” it traps threats that Ground as a type can already beat. Dugtrio’s main purpose comes from its ability to somewhat check Tapu Bulu with Sludge Wave. It is absolutely and in no level as bad as Shadow Tag. Another mistake in your argument is saying STAG is “most effective vs defensive teams” while completely ignoring Wobbuffet’s role in Monotype as a Pokemon that can trap almost every single choice-locked Pokemon in the game. Defensive teams in Monotype hardly exist. The argument was that it dismantles defensive cores, not anything else. Saying “STAG traps things, and therefore is uncompetitive” is not an argument to be made, it’s just a fact. It falls under uncompetitive in the tier policy (tier policy literally brings up Shadow Tag as an example) so this argument is impossible to win.

The portrayal of the matchup of STAG vs steel isn't really fair. The matchup is still fairly competitive. First of all, gothelle has to first actaully trap heatran, which usually means a predict with tini (using u-turn on the heatran switchin), as tini is usually choiced and using a choiced fire STAB on a heatran is bad. Moreover, since heatran commonly holds a balloon, psychic has to pop the balloon first before attempting to trap it with gothelle.
How is goth vs steel an unfair portrayal? Once Heatran is trapped, the game is basically over. Victini lacks any switch-ins outside of Heatran and can even live Bisharp’s Sucker Punch. Actually trapping it is extremely easy and you’re making it seem unnecessarily difficult. You mentioned it yourself, spamming U-turn with Victini until Heatran comes in is a perfectly viable play to make. Your balloon point is not relevant as Victini’s same u-turn from your previous example will always pop it. Heatran can’t even afford to stay in on specially defensive Jirachi, as it will always live a hit from Heatran and proceed to pivot into Gothitelle who can trap and kill it.

For the matchup of STAG vs flying; gothelle is often a liability after it traps the intended target. Assuming the flying user is using a balanced or offensive team, after goth traps celes (or maintine) with tbolt, lando I/T or Thundy-T can come in and setup for free or fire off a powerful attacking move, costing momentum, and possibly a mon. Moreover, vs offensive flying, goth might not even have any relevant targets to trap, making it a wasted slot in the matchup.
This is the best point you manage to make during your entire post, and it’s absolutely true. Not only is Goth a liability after it traps it’s intended target, it’s probably dead or extremely weak. Gothitelle can, however, choose exactly what it wants to trap in this matchup, whether it’s Mantine or Skarmory. This is a very unfair trade in the opponent’s part as the player can simply pick and choose what to trap and identify a wincon they can sweep in later in the game. Offensive Flying is hardly as common or viable as balanced Flying, so I’m not sure why bring that up.

VS grass, this matchup is bad for grass, but this isn't really due to the fault of STAG. Things like Cosmic power sigilith already 6-0 grass,
You lost me there. This is not a good set in Monotype. Please lurk a bit more and familiarize yourself with the metagame before posting about Shadow Tag.
 
#25
While Haakunite brought up many great counterpoints, I feel compelled to add a few more:

For the matchup of STAG vs flying; gothelle is often a liability after it traps the intended target. Assuming the flying user is using a balanced or offensive team, after goth traps celes (or mantine) with tbolt, lando I/T or Thundy-T can come in and setup for free or fire off a powerful attacking move, costing momentum, and possibly a mon. Moreover, vs offensive flying, goth might not even have any relevant targets to trap, making it a wasted slot in the matchup.

VS normal, gothelle does obvious work but again, like the steel mu, a) goth has to actually trap the threat, and b) Psychic still has to be concerned with possibly getting swept by powerful sweepers such as z-conversion porygonz. The game does not end once chansey is trapped.

Goth eliminating mandi vs dark isn't really uncompetitive; if anything, it serves to make the mu more competitive because psychic should be losing the mu 90% of the time regardless.
Vs Flying, Gothitelle traps the intended target and removes it. It cannot possibly be considered a liability if you get to erase your target from the match. This would be like saying on Poison teams, Alolan Muk is a liability after it traps and kills something like Alolan Raichu on Electric; the entire point of the mon is to erase that specific threat, and once completed, it can be fodder for the rest of the match and still have pulled its own weight.

When you say "Goth has to actually trap the threat", it's not exactly hard for Goth to switch into something like Chansey and trick a scarf onto it. Goth isn't going to be trapping mons like CB Heracross locked into Megahorn; the targets it is tailored to trap aren't exactly going to beat it 1v1...

Goth eliminating Mandibuzz in the Psy vs. Dark matchup is actually huge as it allows physical threats like Victini and Mega-Gallade to have a much easier shot in sweeping, and no team should be losing any MU "90% of the time" unless it's a garbage type like Ice.
 
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