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Resources SM NU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'NeverUsed' started by Kiyo, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Kiyo

    Kiyo I'm curious.
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    NU Leader

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    [​IMG]
    art by Regime
    Welcome to the official Sun & Moon NU Viability Rankings thread. This thread will be used by the community in order to rank all usable pokémon in the Neverused Tier. You're encouraged to civilly post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in NU and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each NU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order.

    To make ranking these Pokemon easier the NU Council has come up with a list of positive and negative attributes each Pokemon should meet to fit a certain rank. Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup. However, something to remember while ranking is that filling criteria is not a black and white process. Pokemon A might have a stronger effect on the metagame compared to Pokemon B, but Pokemon B might still influence teambuilding a lot. Take into account the varying degrees of these criteria as you reflect on a nomination.

    Current VR Council:

    Kiyo
    Blast
    Disjunction
    Eternally
    Hootie
    meepsvictory
    Punchshroom
    Rapture
    erisia
    Finchinator
    Jarii
    Raseri

    S Rank:
    Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.

    S
    [​IMG] Barbaracle
    [​IMG] Emboar
    [​IMG] Rotom-C
    [​IMG] Vanilluxe​

    A Rank:
    Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the positive criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or a handful of minor negative characteristics that could set them back.


    A+
    [​IMG] Delphox
    [​IMG] Slowbro
    [​IMG] Sneasel
    [​IMG] Vikavolt
    [​IMG] Virizion
    [​IMG] Whimsicott

    A
    [​IMG] Froslass
    [​IMG] Guzzlord
    [​IMG] Hitmonlee
    [​IMG] Rhydon
    [​IMG] Sceptile
    [​IMG] Xatu

    A-
    [​IMG] Audino-Mega
    [​IMG] Druddigon
    [​IMG] Garbodor
    [​IMG] Houndoom
    [​IMG] Mismagius
    [​IMG] Piloswine
    [​IMG] Samurott
    [​IMG] Seismitoad
    [​IMG] Steelix
    [​IMG] Vaporeon
    [​IMG] Vileplume
    [​IMG] Vivillon​

    B Rank:
    Pokemon in this rank do an alright job fulfilling criteria, albeit not as convincingly. These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team.

    B+
    [​IMG] Accelgor
    [​IMG] Aromatisse
    [​IMG] Braviary
    [​IMG] Cryogonal
    [​IMG] Golbat
    [​IMG] Malamar
    [​IMG] Mesprit
    [​IMG] Rotom
    [​IMG] Shuckle
    [​IMG] Sigilyph
    [​IMG] Skuntank
    [​IMG] Slowking
    [​IMG] Toxicroak
    [​IMG] Uxie


    B
    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Exeggutor-Alola
    [​IMG] Granbull
    [​IMG] Hariyama
    [​IMG] Jellicent
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Lilligant
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Medicham
    [​IMG] Omastar
    [​IMG] Qwilfish
    [​IMG] Raticate-Alola
    [​IMG] Scrafty
    [​IMG] Typhlosion

    B-
    [​IMG] Aurorus
    [​IMG] Archeops
    [​IMG] Cinccino
    [​IMG] Clawitzer
    [​IMG] Gallade
    [​IMG] Incineroar
    [​IMG] Magmortar
    [​IMG] Pinsir
    [​IMG] Regirock
    [​IMG] Sawk
    [​IMG] Scyther
    [​IMG] Tauros
    [​IMG] Togedemaru
    [​IMG] Turtonator​

    C Rank:
    Pokemon in this rank do a mediocre job at filling criteria. The sizable amount of negative characteristics associated with these Pokemon are something to weigh against their positives before you fit one on a team.

    C+
    [​IMG] Abomasnow
    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG] Drampa
    [​IMG] Ferroseed
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-Super
    [​IMG] Jynx
    [​IMG] Kabutops
    [​IMG] Lanturn
    [​IMG]Miltank
    [​IMG] Persian-Alola
    [​IMG] Raichu-Alola
    [​IMG] Spiritomb
    [​IMG] Weezing

    C
    [​IMG]
    Absol
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Haunter
    [​IMG] Hitmontop
    [​IMG] Lycanroc-Midday
    [​IMG] Mudsdale
    [​IMG] Probopass
    [​IMG] Regice
    [​IMG] Shiftry

    C-
    [​IMG] Ambipom
    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG] Crustle
    [​IMG] Eelektross
    [​IMG] Komala
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Liepard
    [​IMG] Lurantis
    [​IMG] Minior
    [​IMG] Oricorio-Baile
    [​IMG] Poliwrath
    [​IMG] Pyukumuku​

    D Rank:
    Pokemon in this rank are those that are NU by usage, but are otherwise unviable. Do not discuss the placement of Pokemon here nor nominate Pokemon to move up/down to this rank.

    [​IMG]Claydol
    [​IMG] Sandslash-Alola
    Current Discussion Points:

    None​
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2017 at 10:27 PM
    BPGXMG, Danuh, Romanticist and 42 others like this.
  2. Kiyo

    Kiyo I'm curious.
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    NU Leader

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    These Viability Rankings were made by the current NU Council and is in no way final, so there is a lot of stuff we may have missed / glossed over. Any posts that are deemed unconstructive will be deleted so make sure your posts do add some kind of value and dont insult / call out another member.

    Current Discussion Points:

    Cofagrigus -> A+
    Slowbro & Slowking -> A / A- (Which one should be higher, if at all)
    Lilligant -> A-
    Minior -> Lower
    Delphox -> B+
    Vaporeon -> B+
    Drampa -> Higher​

    Discussion points arent used as the only things that should be talked about, but instead should be seen as something to talk about if you guys can't think of anything else to talk about. The first discussion points were chosen based on what was deemed most variable by the Council and things we couldn't agree on together.

    Have fun posting n_n
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    This is a nice early list, I'd say. As for some of the discussion points:

    Cofagrigus should rise to A+. I'm sure a lot of people have seen this thing running around and used it and it is probably one of my favorite win conditions in the tier. While I have only really tried the Trick Room variant, I can say with confidence that this thing is really hard to deal with for offense mid-late game and I feel like it stands out in the context of A rank. You notice really dynamic heavy hitters and/or revenge killers in A+ rank, such as Sceptile and Rotom-C, as well as top-tier win conditions/sweepers like Virizion and I feel like Cofagrigus is right in the discussion when it comes to its OTR NP set. While I think there are plenty of fine Pokemon in A rank (i.e: Machamp is incredibly problematic to deal with, Rhydon and Steelix find their way onto so many teams as reliable Stealth Rock users, and Slowbro/Slowking are just generally very useful Pokemon), I do not think any bring to the table as much of a late game presence as Cofagrigus does and I feel like, therefore, Cofagrigus should move up to A+.

    Lilligant should probably stay put. While Lilligant has always been one of the better Pokemon in NU when it resided in the tier during generation six, I feel like it is losing some steam currently as there are an abundance of simply better/more useful grass types. While the niche of something like Rotom-C, Sceptile, Whimsicott, Virizion, or Vileplume is obviously much different than Lilligant, all of them have better coverage movepools than Lilligant and the extra utility of the others -- be it defensively, offensive, or anything in between -- makes for more of a place on a team than the Quiver Dance sweeping capabilities of Lilligant. While this does not necessarily make Lilligant bad, it makes it harder to build around, less appealing to use on teams, and simply something that I do not think is worthy of rising to A- where consistently used utility Pokemon such as Xatu and Garbodor reside or potent offensive threats like Tauros and Vivillon.

    Also, I feel like Slowking just is a bit more "splashable" (I know, not always the best term to use) than Slowbro currently due to all of the specially offensive fire types and some general metagame trends that warrant using it, but I think both are still good Pokemon in the tier. If I had to separate them, I'd personally keep Slowking A, but I think it is fine as is.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
    The Idealistic, eht, tenkai and 18 others like this.
  4. Martin

    Martin Abyssal
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    I think that both Slowbro and slowking are equally good in this metagame and think that they are placed perfectly. While Slowbro certainly puts its typing to better use with its stat spread, making it much easier to plug onto teams when you need a Fighting-type resist, while faring significantly better vs. Sneasel between its superior Defense and greater freedom to use Colbur or Z-crystals, I find that in practice I have significantly more difficulty breaking through Slowking consistently, often being forced into Pursuit mind games as my primary management method for it due to just how absurdly bulky AV Slowking is, being able to circumvent the special-dominance of Electric- and Grass-type coverage moves used by the things that it is commonly switching into. Simply carrying lures for it doesn't work anywhere near as consistently as it does vs Slowbro, and Dragon Tail allows it to circumvent things that take advantage of its passiveness much more easily than Slowbro.

    As for why I think they should stay in A, it is simply a matter of relativity. When I look at A-, I think that both of these Pokemon are markedly better than just about everything in the rank below, whether it comes down to overall consistency and/or effectiveness in their respective roles or general splashability or whatever other factor I choose to consider.
  5. wishes

    wishes stun
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    [​IMG][​IMG]
    a → a+

    cofagrigus ¡s an insane threat. otr is a great set that can completely flip a match, and ghostium z makes it so much stronger. furthermore, being able to check virizion and tyrantrum is super nice, and it can also check things like hitmonlee. i feel as if cofagrigus is so hard to deal with than a lot of other pokemon in the tier and it provides a win condition that beats down offense later in the match. with its natural bulk, access to nasty plot, and generally strong ability to dictate the result of a match late game, i feel that cofagrigus would fit in much better in a+ than in a.

    hitmonlee is the premier offensive rapid spin user of the tier. reckless high jump kicks are nothing to scoff at either, and it can mindlessly spam knock off with ease to let itself clean later in the match is impeccable. whether it's running all-out attacker sets or scarf set, hitmonlee pulls its weight and places a ton of offensive pressure on the opponent. it obviously does have to watch out for things like cofagrigus, uxie, and garbodor, all common threats, which can put hitmonlee in its place. that's why i do think hitmonlee could be in a or a+, since it can be stopped by common threats. however, i think its insane offensive capability and utility it brings to offense should warrant a raise.

    [​IMG]
    b+ → a-

    spiritomb is such an amazing "glue" to a team and the utility it provides is so helpful to virtually any team. being able to provide a stop to hitmonlee, machamp, and most other fighting-types (not virizion) while also trapping dangerous psychic-types like meloetta and slowking make spiritomb such a useful pokemon. spiritomb is so easy to add to a team and just make things a lot better. it does have flaws in that it often finds itself in weird positions because it doesn't necessarily have something to overwhelm the opponent, like against steelix. crotomb is also a super neat set, though i've not used it myself. spiritomb has a ton of versatility and deserves a bump.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    b → b+

    mismagius is like the offensive, faster sister of cofagrigus. it too runs nasty plot + never-ending nightmare, but mismagius doesn't have the same bulk. however, the higher speed, and ability to be more versatile (think of twinkle tackle, gigavolt havoc, etc) while being more immediately threatening make mismagius stand out by its own. i feel that it should be bumped a rank because it is immediately offensive and threatening and provides a great offensive ghost-type, where cofagrigus simply doesn't fit. mismagius does struggle vs. pursuit trappers like drapion and spiritomb, much more so than cofagrigus, but that's why mismagius is in the b ranks and cofagrigus is in the a ranks (amongst other reasons of course)!

    delphox's bloom doom set is just really scary to face, and it has enough speed to place pressure on offense as well. its coverage is awesome and calm mind sets pose a threat to most pokemon in just one turn. delphox is one of the better offensive fire-types in my opinion, and should be on the same rank as magmortar because of how scary both are to face. however, it struggles versus the premier offensive fire-type, houndoom, and has virtually nothing for it, but i still do believe that delphox deserves a boost to reflect that it is such a powerful force.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    b- b

    cryogonal is a wonderful defensive asset to offensive teams. with such a variety of great defensive assets, like recover, rapid spin, knock off, toxic, reflect, etc, it's crazy good. freeze-dry is all it needs, and having access to it makes it stand out a lot in my opinion. cryogonal always pulls its weight and rapid spin + recover makes up for being weak to stealth rock. it can't beat the common stealth rock setters, however. namely steelix. that sets it back a bit, but i don't believe that cryogonal deserves to be b- simply because it is such a cool pokemon. having no defense does suck quite a bit, but it's a great stop to a lot of special attackers like sigilyph. try out frost breath too. :)

    kangaskhan certainly isn't as great as it once was, but fake out + spikes / toxic spikes is a great great way to rack up damage quickly. double-edge is immediately threatening and powerful, too. kangaskhan doesn't fare well versus steelix, slowbro, rhydon... basically the tier's defensive walls. however, kangaskhan excels versus offensive teams and it's never a slouch in terms of damage. while it's just not as good as it was before, i don't think it should land kangaskhan in b-. b seems much more fitting, with other pokemon like scyther, who struggle versus common walls but still can excel given the opportunity, for example.

    [​IMG]
    b- b+

    samurott is a great pokemon. special sets w/ aqua jet really stomp common defensive pokemon. swords dance set, i haven't used much, so i won't speak on it, but just having that set makes it so much better, too. hydro pump is really great, and the slow twins hate seeing megahorn/grass knot (only slowbro). its coverage, access to aqua jet, insane versatility, and great power to back it all up make it a great candidate for b+ in my opinion. while it certainly does hate having subpar speed, samurott holds its own and forces switches like crazy, making it a great partner to spikes support from the likes of garbodor. samurott just isn't fitting in correctly in b-. i think even b would be better, though i'd prefer b+, i also understand that it's got some glaring flaws to it which could limit it from reaching b+.

    on the slate: minior could drop to lower considering how it requires the opponent to get it into its best form, it's really not that hard to play around and steelix/rhydon being everywhere do it no favors. slowbro+slowking should be in the same rank since they share the same assets, but play two same roles of different variations. i don't really think either of them is better than the other. drampa could definitely go higher, though i'm not sure where. it's a threatening pokemon and it offers something that really isn't seen much. have not enough experience with vaporeon/lilligant to offer suggestions there.

    just my thoughts :)
  6. Raseri

    Raseri Carraco$ta
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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    Definitely support Cofagrigus going up. It is one of the most difficult pokemon to handle in NU with its OTR set. Never ending nightmare lets it rip through most non resists.

    Two changes Id like to see are Druddigon from B -> B+ and Drampa from B- -> B

    Dragon types are really good right now. Druddigon has a few cool sets it can run, like Offensive SR with Mold Breaker to destroy teams that rely on Xatu. Offensive Sheer Force sets that are incredibly difficult for bulky teams to handle, or even defensive MB / Rough Skin sets to take advantage of all of dragon-types amazing resistences. Druddigons defensive stats arent amazing, but theyre good enough that you can switch in on grass / water / fire types and pressure most of them out. Dragon Tail is also a really good move right now.

    Drampa mainly for the awesome Berserk set, most things cant OHKO Drampa, so youre able to get the +1 Special Attack and kill most things with Hyper Voice. Roost is really cool too and lets you pressure the slowbro/kings out pretty easily. Or you just use specs and kill literally everything
  7. PursuitOfHappiny

    PursuitOfHappiny

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    [​IMG] Unranked --> B- / B / B+

    Already talked about this mon in the np thread but you guys probably forgot to include it. Here's the post:
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...st-38-67-for-bans.3606077/page-4#post-7405080
    Nomming it for somewhere in the B ranks because i think it's the best OTR mon after Cofagrigus.

    [​IMG] B --> B+ / A-

    This mon is actually very good and compresses a lot of roles. Vaporeon is a decent Fire and Ice resist, immune to Water, access to Heal Bell and its biggest asset passing fat wishes. I think wishpassing is very good right now since important walls like Steelix and Rhydon are very easily worn down and are often peoples main check to a plethora of threats. I feel that all these merits are enough to let it rise at least one spot on the vr.

    [​IMG]A --> A+

    I feel that the best hazard remover in the tier deserves one of the best spots in the vr. And make no mistake, it doesn't just defog. Taunt lets it prevent hazards setting, Super Fang wears down rockers like Steelix and Rhydon significantly, Brave Bird checks all the offensive Grasses, Toxicroak, Accelgor etc. Golbat is also a soft check to special attackers like Mismagius and Vivillon.

    Sorry for the rushed post but seeing new threads is exciting!
  8. Cheryl.

    Cheryl. Breh
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    masquerain.gif
    Unranked --> C-

    Masquerain should be ranked because it actually has a few niches over it's fellow Sticky Web competitor, Shuckle, that make it worth using. Firstly, Masquerain has an actual usable offensive presence, having enough power to threaten Xatu with its STAB Air Slash, who could bounce back Masquerain's Sticky Webs. This is really nice because Xatu is otherwise a pretty annoying mon to fight with Webs because Shuckle can't really touch it. Masquerain also can fight back against common Stealth Rock users, mainly Steelix and Rhydon, with Hydro Pump and chunk them for a large amount, disabling them from getting free Rocks off against it, which they could do against Shuckle. While Shuckle may be overall more useful due to being insanely bulky and having Stealth Rock, making it a more consistent hazard setter for Webs teams, I believe Masquerain has a decent enough niche in its offensive presence and ability to beat or pressure mons that Shuckle normally can't, while still being consistent at getting up Webs, to be ranked.

    252+ SpA Masquerain Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Xatu: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO (Shows how you can pressure Xatu and possibly beat it)

    Some replays showcasing Masquerain's assets (might add more maybe):
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nubeta-591853654


    For the discussion points, Cofagrigus should definitely rise to A+, as OTR + NP is an amazing late-game cleaner against offense, and Ghostium Z makes it even harder to check, as +2 Never-Ending Nightmare blows back pretty much any non-Ghost resist out there.
  9. passion

    passion take your hands
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    "No human being will ever know the Truth, for even if they happen to say it by chance, they would not even known they had done so" - Xenophanes. Ever since the introduction of Vileplume in Pokemon Blue on October 10th, 1996, it was clear that it was a very solid Pokemon. Twenty years later Vileplume would cement itself as one of the greatest Omega Ruby Alpha Saphire Neverused Pokemon of all time. Relatively impressive defensive and offensive statistics to fit with a typing that is good both offensively and defensively, as well as it's good movepool making it one of the most versatile Pokemon to ever grace the game. Furthermore within the fifth generation of Pokemon it learned picked up the most broken ability of all time as a sort of hidden technique. Although Vileplume is not given the proper recognition from the figureheads of the NeverUsed viability ranking threads, it is clear that Vileplume is actually S-rank worthy because of its fantastic versatility and its inherently broken secret ability.

    Over the years many it has become that the many of the best Pokemon in all tiers have the versatility to run many different sets, such as Clefable in Overused, Hydregion in Underused, and Flygon in Rarelyused. All of these examples fall into the S Rank of the viability rankings in their respective tiers because of this versatility, so I ask what stops Vileplume, a Pokemon more viable than all of these other examples combined, stuck within the dominion of B+ ranking? Vileplume is able to run many fantastic defensive and offensive sets, including unkillable physically defensive, tank offensive, life orb, specs, sub ingrain leech seed, offensive swords dance, substitute bulky swords dance, grass terrain, sunny day chlorophyll, etc. The last one is not recommended, as it gets rid of the most broken ability of all time, so it is a waste of the best Pokemon in the tier. There is no single Pokemon that counters all of these sets, so every time it gets in for the first time it becomes a guessing game. It also has a good moveset to add to this versatility. This moveset includes two more broken things, Sleep Powder and Sludge Bomb. Sleep is a bad mechanic and can only be stopped by switching a grass type, Xatu, or luck. Luck is not something to depend on and Sludge Bomb kills all grass types and poisons Xatu if they even think about switching in. Vileplume can use its other a million other moves as well making it effectively unstoppable.

    Another staple on Pokemon residing in the S ranks is fantastic abilities, Intimidate Landorus Therian form, Regenerator Alomomola, and Desolate Land Primal Groudon are great examples of this. Since Effect Spore is better than all of these abilities, it baffles me that Vileplume is not considered to be the best Pokemon in the Neverused tier system. To explain, Effect Spore is an ability that gives a thirty percent chance to poison, paralyze, or sleep the opposing Pokemon on contact. This ability makes every physical attack in the game completely worthless because Vileplume can just switch into anything and make it worthless. Some of the best moves in the game, Knock Off, any fighting attack, Seismic Toss, U-turn, and many many more are worthless with Vileplume on the battlefield. The fear instilled in people because of Effect Spore makes Vileplume unarguably the strongest spinblocker within the Neverused tier. This hidden technique from Vileplume has traumatized me to the point where I have made the executive decision to only use Special Attacks, so Vileplume the most broken Pokemon of all time cannot put my lovely Pokemon to sleep when one of my them makes physical contact with it. Effect Spore is the greatest ability of all time, it makes some of the strongest abilities like Intimidate, Magic Guard, Huge Power, etc. look like pure garbage. If given the chance to put either Effect Spore or Wonder Guard on every Pokemon I used for the rest of my life, I would pick Effect Spore without having to think about it.

    In conclusion Vileplume should be added to the S rankings of the Neverused tier because of its ridiculous versatility and broken ability. Vileplume is without a doubt the strongest Pokemon in the Neverused tier, but many of the figureheads of this thread refuse to accept this. It is time for a change to be made. If Vileplume was finally able to burst into S rank after years of oppression, it would open the gates for many other Pokemon being held back by the system to improve their placement on the ranking system. Furthermore it would stop the spreading of blatant misinformation to newer players who are ignorant to the overwhelming dominance Vileplume has over the Neverused tier. I hope this post is able to open the 3rd eye of Vileplume haters because at this point Vileplume's S rankness cannot be denied.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  10. Marrrrrrrrrr

    Marrrrrrrrrr

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    HEAVILY disagree with Slowking dropping. It has never let me down. It counters half the tier and sets up Calm Mind with tremendous ease, and it's super hard to kill. It cripples the Grass types with Scald, and whenever it gets forced out it activates Regenerator, allowing you to go back to Slowking at any point. It's bulky enough to survive a Pursuit from Sneasel and can get it back with Scald. After enough boosts, it blows by Houndoom, along with any special attacker in the tier, and as for physical threats, it beats a lot of them too, including Rhydon and Steelix, the most relevant rockers in the tier bar Necrozma which Slowking also beats. Slowking being on the slate to drop is a direct insult to me. If anything it should rise to A+.
  11. Hootie

    Hootie
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    As good and consistent as Golbat is at doing its job, A+ really overrates it and doesn't take into account that it's heavily threatened by all three of the S rank 'mons. Giving Tyrantrum and Necrozma free turns in particular is a pretty unfavorable scenario because their versatility makes them difficult to scout. There's also the fact that realistically, it's hard to fit Super Fang or any other utility moves like U-turn/Toxic when Defog, Roost, and Brave Bird are mandatory and Taunt being necessary in a lot of scenarios, otherwise rockers like Steelix and Rhydon end up setting hazards back up again, limiting its effectiveness at keeping hazards at bay. Toxic is the only one that's worth replacing over Taunt, but that's typically better suited for stall rather than balance (unless your team particularly weak to SubBU Braviary). It's definitely the best hazard remover in the tier, but it still has a the flaws of being Eviolite reliant, which can limit what it's able to check in practice, and being hampered by Stealth Rock itself that don't really put it on the level of the rest of the 'mons listed in A+.

    Late Edit: Also in agreement on a Vaporeon rise, B+ should be good enough. It's seriously an underrated bulky water and I tend to put it on my teams more than something like Jellicent because its a bulky water that doesn't get owned by Houndoom, which is already difficult to check defensively. Passing fat wishes and access to Heal Bell is a unique enough trait that lets it support the plethora of pivots that have no means of recovery outside of Leftovers.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
    Raseri, tenkai, Chukapi2000 and 11 others like this.
  12. Jarii

    Jarii formerly boring

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    753
    [​IMG] A- -> A
    I'm gonna post this one right of the bat, Toxicroak is an amazing fighting type that is able to beat the psychic types that most fighting types normally gets beaten by such as Slowbro and Necrozma, these two die after a SD with Z-Gunk Shot after rocks, Golbat being the main Defogger makes Z-Ice Punch viable which is also a OHKO after rocks, defensive Garbodor is set up for Toxicroak and the same thing with Qwilfish. The unpredictability of Toxicroak is also something to mention as well, if you think it's SD and you want to check is offensively with Sneasel since Sucker Punch doesn't kill and you get OHKO'ed by Vacuum Wave, trying to check it with Jellicent and you might get hit by a darknium Z Dark Pulse or Sucker punch. Of course you can't run all but it doesn't need too much support to sweep like some other sweepers. You never know what this mon is gonna do, it can even run Sub SD or Sub Bulk Up. All with all the varity this mon can run and does all really well I'd say Toxicroak should be A at least.

    Some calcs (open)

    +2 252 Atk Toxicroak Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 363-427 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Toxicroak Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma: 382-451 (95.9 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 Atk Toxicroak Subzero Slammer (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 318-376 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252 SpA Toxicroak Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 506-596 (125.5 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Toxicroak Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Jellicent: 516-608 (128 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    [​IMG]
    C+ -> B-/B
    This shouldn't be C+, this is an Ice type that is decently fast and good spA is pretty good. We all know from ORAS that Ice typing is an amazing offensive typing. Freeze-Dry makes Water types not a check to Vanilluxe anymore, after it got Snow Warning as an ability you have now 100% accurate Blizzard as well and just nuke something with Life Orb or Ice plate. With the ability to click stab Blizzard without missing makes the scarf set in this offensive tier good as well, with the ability to nuke Virizion, Sigilyph, Scarf Tyrantrum (which it is able to outspeed), Sceptile and Whimsicott and most just flat out OHKO. Explosion is a possibility to beat Cryogonal and prevent a free spin they might really need, HP Ground for fire types what otherwise would be a free switch or even Signal beam to hit Sneasel or Malamar. It's not deserving right now to bring it higher then B- or B but certainly not in the same rank as Aurorus.

    Some Calcs (open)

    252 SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 257-304 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 320-377 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 247-292 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 185-218 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emboar: 216-255 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Probably some more calcs that can be used as an example but couldn't think of some more.

    [​IMG] B -> B+/A-
    I have no idea what this does in B, Calm mind set is able to beat Water types, Scarf beats almost every offensive mon (Sneasel, Virizion, Rotom-C, Tyrantrum With Dazzling Gleam, Sceptile and Whimsicott out the top of my head) and is able to cripple defensive mons what like to switch in to it. Delphox has even an amazing movepool with Fire Blast, Psyshock, Psychic, Grass Knot, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam and Will-O-Wisp. Good offensive stats with 114 SpA and 104 Spe, it's spD isn't that bad either with 100 so it's able to set up on some weaker SpA mons. I personally think even that this is one of the best scarfers we have in the tier outside of Tyrantrum probably. Delphox certainly deserves A- or at least B+. (How is Magmortar higher then Delphox)

    Some Calcs (open)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 190-226 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    168+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 150-176 (51.3 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    So you do beat it 1v1 when Slowking switches in.
    252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 314-372 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Delphox Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyrantrum: 242-286 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 250-294 (62 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 168-199 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    So it can't switch in on a Psychic because it's killed after.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    The Idealistic, Plas, eht and 20 others like this.
  13. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Resurgence
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus

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    I am definitely going to strongly agree with both of these points. Having used both Cofagrigus and Spiritomb in BW UU/NU itself, it is testament to the strength, versatility and power of these two premier Ghost-types. They fulfill multiple roles such as being sweeper, spinblocker, and tank all-in-one.

    Cofagrigus can run multiple sets, with OTR being the prime threat, able to punch holes in teams easily, and also sweep, but also can run a Will-O-Wisp set which is highly irritating and counters many of the physical attackers in the tier. With Toxic Spikes, it can even provide necessary hazard support when the opponent switches out. Haze is also good to prevent opponents from setting up. Let's not forget Mummy, which nullifies multiple opponent abilities which have only become more overpowered in SM generation -- Medicham's Pure Power, Slowbro/King's Regenerator, and even Tyrantrum's Rock Head in a pinch. The defensive version of Cofagrigus is nothing to scoff at, and can be highly irritating thanks to its not-wide but enough movepool. Needless to say, offensive OTR is deadly.

    Did you remember that Cofagrigus has Calm Mind too? It can certainly be a tank instead of Nasty Plot, which can work just as painfully against less offensive teams.


    As for Spiritomb, in fact, I would like it to be be shifted to A, a step higher than wishes had put forth. Its ability to pursuit trap the countless irritating Ghost- and Psychic- types in the tier still remain unparalleled: Getting rid of Slowking, Meloetta, Xatu, Sivally-Ghost, Uxie, Mesprit, Orocorio, and sometimes, opposing Cofagrigus, gives it great utility in a match. Its high defenses also allow it to stay in for long and tank multiple hits throughout a match. Let's not forget the devastating CroTomb set, which can singlehandedly demolish less offensive teams, though it is less effective this generation due to the power creep.

    Access to multiple STAB priority moves such as Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak can also turn the tides of the game, functioning as a clutch cleaner. The only thing that made Spiritomb weaker than it is in previous generations is its new weakness to Fairy, but because there are few viable Fairy types in the SM NU metagame currently, they usually will not pose much of a threat.

    Therefore, I support Cofagrigus a -> a+ and Spiritomb b+ -> a
    tenkai, MaahirMomtaz12, nv and 4 others like this.
  14. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
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    Best thread is back! Lots of quality posts in the thread so far so I might as well join in. I think the list is a pretty good starting point but there are a few mons I can see switching around:

    [​IMG] A- > B+
    [​IMG] B
    [​IMG] C+ > B+
    [​IMG] C- > C+

    One of the biggest changes in the SM NU metagame compared to the ORAS tier is the injection of several new strong, fast Normal-types that give Tauros a ton of competition. I appreciate that going from S > A- is quite a drop already but I think it still oversells Tauros in relation to its counterparts. Body Slam is not a significant buff as it's actually illegal with Iron Tail (and even Iron Head), which is arguably one of Tauros's main niches over other Normal-types. Steelix is still super common and Fire Blast is still a good way of dealing with it, but Dodrio, Cinncino, and Ambipom can also all get around Steelix without using a move that's so easy for anything else to switch into and punish. Tauros's increased physical bulk is a selling point, but it's undercut by its vastly worse Speed tier in this metagame; in ORAS, it was basically the fastest strong unboosted mon, while that tier has mostly shifted to Base 115-120 and there are many viable Choice Scarfers that can boast similar power (such as Emboar and Tyrantrum).

    Tauros Bulk Calcs (open)

    252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 244-288 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 237-279 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Superpower obviously OHKOes)
    252 SpA Choice Specs Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 246-289 (84.5 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Lycanroc All-Out Pummeling (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 294-346 (101 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 237-279 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    I can go on, but the point is that Tauros' extra bulk is not enough to save its worse Speed tier. Meanwhile, here are some comparisons in raw power vs neutral targets:

    Neutral Power Calcs (open)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 140-165 (35.5 - 41.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%)
    252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 155-180 (39.3 - 45.6%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 122-146 (30.9 - 37%)


    I realise SD + Fightinium-Z is more common on Dodrio but the LO set is still good for general offense and breaking through bulky neutral checks like Jellicent (+2 LO Brave Bird is a clean OHKO). And Ambipom can often stack more residual damage with Fake Out or U-turn so I would still consider that a tie. So Tauros is more-or-less even in neutral power with the other Normal-types depending on the sets they run, while often being slower and not packing enough bulk to make a difference. So the main thing distinguishing Tauros from its competition is its coverage, i.e. Earthquake (which doesn't get a Sheer Force boost), Zen Headbutt (which is very niche), and the aforementioned Fire Blast and Iron Tail. In comparison, Dodrio has secondary STAB that lets it hit Ghost-types hard, Cinccino has Bullet Seed to utterly destroy Rhydon (and Focus Blast 2HKOes Steelix, you can run it on LO sets and it basically serves the same purpose as Tauros' Fire Blast without the additional opportunity cost of the Fightinium-Z set), and Ambipom is a wet towel but Seed Bomb and Low Kick can still do respectable damage to targets if you can run them. More calcs!

    Coverage Calcs (open)

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 159-187 (45.1 - 53.1%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 138-164 (39.2 - 46.5%)
    4 SpA Life Orb Cinccino Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 190-226 (53.9 - 64.2%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 156-185 (44.3 - 52.5%)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 177-208 (42.7 - 50.2%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Dodrio Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 146-172 (35.2 - 41.5%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 340-415 (82.1 - 100.2%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 135-161 (32.6 - 38.8%)
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 218-260 (52.6 - 62.8%)


    In conclusion: Tauros is the slowest of the bunch, has average neutral attacking power (and accuracy issues if it runs Rock Climb), and does worse vs Steelix and Rhydon than Cinccino and Ambipom (Dodrio also does better against these targets if it runs Fightinium-Z, which it can often afford to do). Tauros is still pretty good despite this; I've painted a negative picture but the lack of LO recoil + better Defense makes it a lot sturdier against priority attacks like Sneasel's Ice Shard and Machamp's Bullet Punch, which can be important for defensive teams. However, these are minor advantages at best in comparison to the other available Normal-types, which boast other attributes such as Dodrio's Ground-type immunity + dual STAB combo, Cinccino's ability to bypass Focus Sashes and Substitutes, Ambipom's ability to reliably force switches (or actually revenge things if they stay in!) with Technician Fake Out, and the latter two's access to extremely useful utility in Knock Off and U-Turn.

    Everyone memes on Cinccino and Ambipom but they're FAR deadlier than in ORAS RU due to the main difference between RU and NU: the relative lack of non-exploitable Normal-resists. They can put insane pressure on the likes of Steelix and Rhydon, either luring them in and KOing them, or crippling them with Knock Off or pivoting out to a teammate. Offensive teams generally lack sturdy Normal-resists outside of these, other than squishy Rock-types that usually fall to Bullet Seed / Low Kick / Seed Bomb. Ambipom remains markedly worse than Cinccino due to the severe 4MSS it has, forcing it to run only 2 out of strong reliable STAB, utility moves, and coverage moves, making it much less of a threat once it has been scouted. However, Technician Fake Out is still an extremely powerful tool, and Knock Off can decently punish Ghost-types that don't run Ghostium-Z or something similar. Meanwhile Cinccino is just straight up more threatening than Tauros in the majority of circumstances, only really struggling vs Steel-types in comparison. It also has the flexibility of running a decent Choice Band set due to the raw power of Tail Slap and the spammability of Knock Off + U-turn. Here's the main Cinccino set I would recommend:

    [​IMG]
    Cinccino @ Life Orb / Choice Band
    Ability: Skill Link
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly / Naive Nature
    - Tail Slap
    - Bullet Seed
    - Knock Off
    - U-turn / Focus Blast

    Rock Blast isn't too necessary in this metagame but lets you deal with stuff like Golbat / Braviary / Charizard / Scyther better.

    tl;dr Properly ranking the Normal-types of this meta is an important first step, and we should try and avoid bias from ORAS from making us blindly assume that Tauros is leagues ahead of its competition. Feel free to disagree since I may have missed some points, but my general experience is that Tauros and Cinccino pose about the same threat level, and Dodrio and Ambipom aren't too far behind.
  15. rhydonphilip

    rhydonphilip

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    [​IMG] from b- to b/b+
    I am suprised to see it ranked so low and compairing both the definition of B(as in having only a few downsides) as well as the other pokemon this mon could very easily be B or B+. Ranging from a more special bulky hazard remover to a reasonable offensive hazard remover even with just 2 moves it really spams in Freeze Dry and Ice Beam. Knock Off or the occasional Toxic alongside reliable recovery gives it space to threaten walls such as Slowking with an adjusted spread(trading more SpA for Health or a slight speed cut for more Health) to prevent any 2HKO's from it. A more Offensive spread allowes it to stand out side of just being a hazard remover and acting much like Hitmonlee with just straight up attacking with hazard removal as a nice second. Even with no investment it can 1v1 wall Cofagrigus and do enough damage to prevent it from using you as set up bait for Nasty Plot, with Nevermelting Ice you can even 2HKO after Stealth Rocks with Ice Beam.

    [​IMG]&[​IMG]
    Both Guzzlord and Omastar from C to C+
    Guzzlord, and I don't want to be the guy to meme that this mon should be higher up but C is actually underrating compaired to more niche attackers that are in C+ when this is a niche wall, walling stuff like Houndoom, most special attackers and hitting back with a 2HKO against most of them. Lack of damage and recovery do keep it in a limited position and make it niche but it still succeeds as intended.
    Omastar has the utility to set hazards with suprizing effective use thanks to Weak Armor or reasonable defense to even switch in on a couple of pokemon.
    While I would say it's overall easy to force out with so many grass pokemon and multiple special attackers with grass coverage it still succeeds to keep pressence with just the moves Scald and Ice Beam. Some hazard removers do take advantage from the type while others do not such as Cryogonal does amazing against it where as Golbat actually gets worn alongside Omastar. SS set also doesn't look too bad if you can get it to set up and remove Vaporeon/Slowking.

    Was going to mention Tauros but erisia just posted while I was making this post. Any other mon recieved enough voice in above posts to justify there rank.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  16. Jarii

    Jarii formerly boring

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    Sorry for the fast post after my last one but I found some mons I really wanted to talk about, I talked with erisia and it was fine with him to make another post this fast after the last one (since it would otherwise confuse people that might have read my last one already).

    [​IMG] A+ -> A/A-
    First of I totally get why this is placed A+ since it might be the best stall breaker in the tier and has okay speed tier, great movepool, good spA and it can run NP set as well as the Mixed set with pursuit. Despite all of this I don't find this mon deserving of A+, stall isn't great in this offensive meta we have right now, it's speed tier is pretty average so most offensive mons already outspeed is normally like: Sneasel (with some chip it's able to kill with banded Knock Off what isn't too hard to do), Scarf Tyrantrum, Virizion, Emboar Scarf (and not able to ohko it anyway), Accelgor, Tauros and some other offensive mons. Despite most can't switch in on it Houndoom cant switch on it either and doesn't beat 1v1. Houndoom reminds me of Jynx in ORAS, great vs balance and stally teams really bad vs offensive teams. Honestly the mixed set lacks little power and speed to become really threatening. Overall Houndoom is still a really good mon but not deserving A+.

    [​IMG]
    A -> A-
    Depsite I love Uxie so much I think it doesn't deserve rank A, Necrozma is 9 out of 10 times better to use as a psychic type. Necrozma is able to be also more unpredictable while you know 9 out of 10 times what Uxie is going to do, Uxie would deserve A when Necrozma wouldn't be here. Of course it's still a really good and bulky Psychic type with levitate, but I it still has issues with Steelix what is the most populair rocker in the tier right now, Sneasel, Drapion and Houndoom what all are not uncommon mons. The bulky set is also for some mons a free set up what sets it back as well, I think Uxie should go down a rank because of these things.

    [​IMG]
    B+ -> B
    Minior is a good Shell Smasher but being weak to the best mons in the tier (Sneasel and Tyrantrum my oppinion btw), not able to beat Steelix and Rhydon well and it's weak to both mons stab makes it's case not better. Also in it's Shield form it's pretty weak even with a SS up and when you are in Meteor form you get easily revenge killed by priority, overall I think Minior has alot of potential but the meta is just not nice for it right now.
  17. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

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    Minior -> Lower: Agree

    Minior I've also found to be weak to Sneasel and Tyrantrum. In its shield forme, it's not powerful at all, and in the meteor form, it's ultra weak to priority. It can win games given the right support and matchup - don't get me wrong, but most teams have good priority and the top tier mons it loses to.

    As for the normal, I could genuinely see Dodrio in B+. It has powerful coverage vs Steelix and Rhydon and having Brave Bird is huuuge for it - beating the ever abundant Fighting types is great. I've tested Band and Scarf and both work really well (it's for sure best as a band, I don't think Scarf is powerful enough) in doing heavy damage to opposing teams thanks to Jump Kick. I'll likely edit my post if I get to test out Swords Dance.

    EDIT: Yup, just tested it out and SD + Fight Z is good. While the bulk is just terrible for setting and it's weak to priority, it has like nothing else holding it back.

    MORE EDITS YAY: Hitmonlee to A+. Scarf is a great revenge killer and it's a great offensive hazard remover too. It's a clear cut ahead of Emboar and Machamp as a premier fighter in a tier where fighters are invaluable. I truly do see it on the level of Virizion as the best fighter in the meta (although they do entirely different things)

    Magmortar to B-/C+ as said by someone below: Agree I'm seeing like no reason to use this. Incineroar's defensive typing and U-Turn makes it a better AV user, while Houndoom and Emboar outdo it in wallbreaking.

    Also, Hitmontop to B+. I've used this on bulky offense and it's just the best spinner. Fighting-type works out well for it. more details later.
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
    LORD HELIX 65 likes this.
  18. meepsvictory

    meepsvictory
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    cofagrigus i legitimately think may be the best pokemon in the tier and should be s, but a+ is fine, i posted in the np thread, don't think i need to repeat much

    omastar should be higher, not sure what it is doing in c, honestly should be sitting around b. it definitely functions much better as a lead hazard setter rather than a shell smash sweeper. i think it's a very solid hazard setter, even with the number of solid grass-types in the tier. it matches up well with other common hazard setters, such as, steelix, rhydon, and piloswine which take a lot of damage from scald, which allows omastar to force switches, potentially allowing it to setup multiple layers of hazards effectively. weak armor also comes in handy especially with +2 speed instead of +1 as in previous gens, allowing omastar to outspeed the entire tier unboosted, and scarfers up to base 89 (including +1 vivillon from quiver dance) which also benefits it in setting up hazards. also i personally like to use shell smash with it, which gives it a nice way of pressuring defoggers, particularly golbat and xatu, which may free up opportunities to setup hazards and keep them on the field

    ditto should be at least c, maybe a bit higher, it's actually quite nice given the offensive nature of the tier right now, it can revenge kill setup sweepers like tyrantrum, virizion, drapion, mismagius, vivillon, barbarcle, etc.
  19. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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    [​IMG] rise to A+
    I can get behind this nomination. Cofag's bulk allowing it to set up Trick Room against a majority of neutral attackers and fire back with a hard-to-resist Never-Ending Nightmare can indeed swing matches, especially when partnered with slow holepunchers. Cofag can also check various Fighting-types, notably Hitmonlee and Medicham, and physically offensive Normals well too, meaning its defensive presence is still solid too.

    [​IMG] & [​IMG] stay in A
    I don't see much of a need to lower these two in rank, though if I had to answer, I'd say Slowbro is probably the one on more grounds to drop since its Calm Minding niche is a tad weaker due to the saturation of powerful Grass-, Dark-, and Ghost-types, as well as competition with Necrozma which people are scrambling to prepare for. Meanwhile Slowking is harder to capitalize on since it shuffle checks out with Dragon Tail, and becomes even more annoying to deal with when combined with Future Sight. However, I don't think this necessarily warrants Slowbro to drop for now.

    [​IMG] rise to A-
    Lilligant has always been known to be a dangerous setup sweeper with the advantage of sustain in boosted Giga Drains and access to Sleep Powder to shut down checks, taking full advantage of its resistances in the process. However, Lilligant does suffering from a very slight 4MSS issue. It wants Quiver Dance and Giga Drain obviously, Sleep Powder to either bypass checks or maximize setup opportunities, Normalium Z Hyper Beam to wipe out a check, and some sort of Hidden Power as backup coverage after expending Z-Hyper Beam since Grass coverage alone is unlikely to clean up mid-game. Considering the number of dangerous mons that resist Grass and KO Lilligant back, having more coverage is more important than ever, and Lilligant must also be aware of the fact that the opponent may be looking to waste Lilligant's Z-Hyper Beam. With that said, trying to waste Lilligant's Breakneck Blitz is an extremely risky prospect since the only mons that can survive the Breakneck either get swallowed by boosted Giga Drain or risk getting set up on even further, and Lilligant may still opt to net another kill with boosted Hyper Beam anyway. While there is substantially more offensive Grass competition in this meta, none of them really replicate what Lilligant tries to do so it can still distinguish itself. I support the rise to A-.

    [​IMG]drop to B
    People tend to overstress on how well this cleans games, some even claiming it's "broken", yet overlook the amount of steps necessary to allow it to sweep, namely making sure that the numerous priority moves that threaten it are out of the way entirely, as well as making sure its defensive checks are sufficiently weakened beforehand before it even thinks about entering battle. Minior also has rather limited safe setup opportunities as many Pokemon can target its common weaknesses and threaten to KO it right through its Shields Up forme, especially since it has no bulk investment and a measly 60 base HP, and Stealth Rock chip only makes it that much harder to try and set up without being put into KO range. It's still a decent wincon, but its limits are clear and rather exploitable.

    [​IMG] rise to B+/A-
    While it does have an unfortunate Stealth Rock and Dark weakness, Delphox is still ridiculously difficult for anyone without a Houndoom / Incineroar to defend against. It's one of the few setup sweepers that can threaten the vast majority of the tier without any need for Z-moves, and it's not like Delphox can't make use of them, particularly Z-SolarBeam to instantly put down the likes of Pyukumuku, AV Slowking, and Vaporeon. Delphox is a highly capable immediate attacker as well, able to effectively utilize Choice sets due to its offensive stats, powerful dual STAB, and access to Switcheroo.

    [​IMG] rise to B+
    While Vaporeon has a reputation of being a momentum sick due to its reliance on WishTect for recovery (allowing opponents to switch in offensive checks for free), I think there are enough Pokemon in the tier that benefit from Vaporeon's massive Wish support to soften the blow for it. Pokemon like Steelix, Garbodor, Druddigon, Cofagrigus, probably even Whimsicott adore the recovery, and help to cover Vaporeon against most threats that wish to take advantage of it. Not only that, but a specially defensive Vaporeon is probably the most capable bulky Water that can take on Nasty Plot + Black Hole Eclipse Houndoom, as well as specially offensive Water-type holepunchers in Samurott and Clawitzer, which is at least somewhat commendable.

    [​IMG] stay in B-
    Drampa has some great resists and even a Ghost immunity in conjunction with reliable recovery and a complementary ability in Berserk, which is pretty great. However, it can only take those advantages so far. For instance, it doesn't resist the alternate STAB of Houndoom and Delphox (unlike Guzzlord), meaning Drampa risks getting overwhelmed on the switch, which not only weakens its niche of resisting Fire but also limits potential switch-in/setup opportunities. Calm Mind Drampa also has to worry about getting statused as well as being pressured by pretty much every Fighting-type in the meta, as most either have the power to just OHKO it (Hitmonlee, Emboar, Medicham) or even have the bulk to take its hits (Virizion, Hitmontop, Scrafty). Offensive Drampa is just obscenely powerful (Choice Specs Draco cleanly OHKOes Cofagrigus) and has pretty much perfect neutral coverage, but its Speed becomes a very noticeable detriment here, as it wants enough Speed just to prevent the likes of Hariyama and Piloswine from wiping it out first. Even then, Drampa is still behind nearly every other wallbreaker in the tier, many of which dent or outright KO it, limiting its matchups. Needless to say, the need for Speed investment does weaken Drampa's ability to check Pokemon that it resists, much less Choice Specs Drampa which cannot even afford Roost. With that said, I will say that Drampa is probably the best Pokemon in the B- tier atm.

    Now for my own noms:
    [​IMG]A- to A / A+

    Drapion I feel is definitely a substantial threat to prepare for; its coverage is terrifying for a majority of slower Pokemon, and its resistances to Grass, Ghost, & Dark as well as Psychic immunity (all of which are relevant and/or common offensive types in this meta) are useful for an offensive mon to have, letting Drapion check some top threats such as Necrozma, Meloetta, Cofagrigus, as well as occasionally threatening Sucker Punch users such as Absol and Toxicroak. Swords Dance sets with Groundium/Waterium Z or Shuca Berry are both very capable of breaking down a good amount of defensive cores and have the bulk and typing to find setup opportunities, meaning you'd want backup checks to keep SD Drapion under control. With that said, Drapion is hardly vulnerable to Pokemon that do outspeed it due to the aforementioned bulk and typing, making the task of revenge killing/checking it a lot trickier as few Pokemon can reliably prevent Drapion from snagging KOes / doing massive damage without putting themselves at risk. Speaking of outspeeding, while Choice Scarf isn't particularly stellar on Drapion, it does allow it to threaten many faster Pokemon, such as Sceptile, Virizion, Mismagius, and Sigilyph, as well as letting it capitalize more on its Pursuit niche (I'd say Houndoom would be the better Pursuit user outside of Scarf).

    [​IMG]B+ to B- / C+

    I can't help but feel Magmortar is rated too highly for being a mish-mash of some of the more optimal Fire-types of the tier. Incineroar has established itself as solid competition as an AV user, especially with its Ghost resistance, Psychic immunity, and access to U-turn, while I'd sooner use Early Bird Houndoom over Vital Spirit Magmortar in this meta since I get to keep the Speed tier (especially against Meloetta and the offensive sleep users), Dark STAB & typing, and Nasty Plot. What's that, Mortar's offensive advantages over Houndoom are Focus Blast for Incineroar / Guzzlord and Thunderbolt for Vaporeon? Well if I wanted to smack those with my Fire-type wallbreaker, I'd sooner choose Emboar, who has STAB on its Fighting attack and lacks a Stealth Rock weakness; before you bring up Emboar's matchup against Slowbro as a point for Mortar, it'd only be logical to point out Magmortar's similiar circumstances against Slowking, though probably worse due to Slowking being able to equip Assault Vest and use offensive investment to put Mortar down faster. Meanwhile, Charizard and Delphox both possess superior Speed tiers and sufficient holepunching coverage while also having the ability to boost their power further. I really don't see a whole lot of merit to Magmortar right now that warrants this kind of rank.

    [​IMG]C+ to B- [​IMG] C to C+ / B-

    These two are notable for three things: Snow Warning Blizzard, anti-Water STAB, and Ice Shard. In a meta where there are many threats that are weak to Ice and has basically no good Steels that resist Ice, Vanilluxe and Abomasnow have a lot more reign to break through the meta. Vanilluxe's Blizzard is among the strongest spammable attacks in the metagame, especially when accounting for Hail chip damage, and it also possesses the strongest Freeze-Dry in the tier. It has just enough Speed to make Choice Scarf viable (unlike Abomasnow), being able to outrun Sceptile and Scarf Tyrantrum as well as shut down weather sweepers as a whole, whereas access to Explosion and Taunt allows it to trip up would-be checks. Abomasnow on the other hand has more defensive utility due to its Water, Electric, and Ground resistances (though it can struggle to really make use of the latter in this meta), has more conservative options than Vanilluxe to threaten its checks such as Earthquake or even Rock Slide (catches Cryogonal at the expense of a 2HKO on AV Incineroar), and the option to threaten Swords Dance for holepunching and/or Ice Shard cleaning.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    The Idealistic, Lixx, eht and 13 others like this.
  20. Rennyjesus

    Rennyjesus

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    414
    While I agree with your nom about Masquerain, I feel that your post is far from showcasing Masq utility...

    The first thing is that while it does have a decent matchup against common rockers thanks to water coverage, it will not avoid rocks from coming up against Steelix (Like your replay showcases) and against others like Rhydon, Scald is more than enough to OHKO them reliably without even needing a nature boosting SpA.

    Also I would like to know, why I would use Air Slash when Bug Buzz can almost ensure a 2HKO against Xatu, again without a SpA boosting nature and they have similar coverage (deal with grass types, are resisted by steels that already take a decent hit from Scald, hit a few other types Super Effective). Then, a Speed boosting nature would prevent Scarf Tyrantrum to come in and revenge Masq at +1 (+1 252 SpA Masquerain Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyrantrum: 280-330 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO), and will make it able to at least speed tie with some slow scarfers like Gallade.

    And a replay haxing your opponent through a Vaporeon that would wall you to hell and back, doesn't showcase how good or bad is Masquerain IMO...

    Then, maybe using a set like this:

    Masquerain @ Focus Sash / Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Bug Buzz
    - Quiver Dance
    - Scald
    - Sticky Web

    I think more speed will make Masq to get Webs against some more threats avoiding Taunt, and Qdancing easily against pivot Xatu and dealing with it easily.

    However I truly believe that Masq should be ranked on a more offensive set similar to Vivillon. While, Vivi usually "outclasses" it because it does have more chances to set up thanks to a highly accurate sleep move, Masquerain can setup on a few other threats thanks to a slightly higher bulk + Intimidate and also having better coverage than Vivi for an offensive QD set.

    Masquerain @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Bug Buzz
    - Quiver Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam

    We know how Hydro Pump / Ice Beam is really good coverage, and Bug Buzz gives it a decent STAB against most water types, especially Slowbro and Slowking. and while slower than Vivi and without a Strong Flying STAB, at least that coverage will be more than enough to carve a niche IMO. Oh, and it can even run Roost instead of some coverage and setup a little longer against some of the things that might force out (Choice locked Fighting/Ground/Grass pokés), because in general Bug + Water does a nice job in this tier...

    See ya!
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    Cheryl. likes this.
  21. Marrrrrrrrrr

    Marrrrrrrrrr

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    68
    I some of my own nominations:

    [​IMG] B- up to B/B+

    Assault Vest is really anti-meta, dealing with Necrozma, Sneasel, Cofagrigus (being immune to Will-o-Wisp is neat), Sigilyph, Vivillon, Whimsicott, and everything in A+ bar Virizion, which isn't switching in on Flare Blitz anyway. Speaking of which, it's no offensive slouch either, 2HKOing Machamp with Flare Blitz and punishing almost anything that doesn't resist its STABs. Also it can cripple Rhydon and Tyrantrum with Will-o-Wisp. Being a Fake Out user that beats Cofagrigus is cool too, and the tier doesn't have too many slow VoltTurn users atm.

    [​IMG] B- up to B/B+

    This beats everything that Spiritomb beats, and to top it off Prankster Taunt guarantees that hazards won't go up, and it beats all Stealth Rock setters too, Necrozma hates Knock Off, Steelix hates Will-o-Wisp, and Rhydon hates both. Look in S through A-, the only Fairy type is Whimsicott. Unlike Spiritomb it has a form of recovery, which also has priority, something that no other defensive Pokemon has. Being immune to Fighting while also not being weak to Dark is also cool, as Hitmonlee and Machamp have Knock Off as their only way of dealing with Ghost types.
    Toy Time King, LORD HELIX 65 and Rwby like this.
  22. Moron5

    Moron5

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    16
    [​IMG] C+ to B
    In a meta where some of the best rockers are Seismitoad and Steelix and the best defogger is Golbat, Vanilluxe should definitely be higher up. This 2hkos almost all the non-resists and special walls in the tier alone with just the scarf set. The LO, never melting ice and choice specs sets while seemingly unpopular, work in their own right to muscle past its checks. Hail chip is also amazing for wearing down its checks and counters and deters focus sash, sturdy among other things.

    [​IMG] B- to C+/C
    Jynx relies on hitting its easily telegraphed normalium lovely kiss (which has its own accuracy problems) then nasty plot combo that only works once a match. When Sneasel is roaming around with the option to resists both its stabs with pursuit in its movepool and toxiccroak, emboar and absol all having the ability to ohko it with sucker punch, it's hard to fit in the current meta atm.
    PursuitOfHappiny and cyanize like this.
  23. Rwby

    Rwby

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    442
    I agree with a lot of the current nominations but don't have time at the moment to write up a full post about them, however I would like to nom a mon that I and Shane have been using quite a lot and it's super duper fun; Eevee from Unranked to C-/C n.n

    [​IMG]
    Eevee @ Eevium Z
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Last Resort
    - Stored Power
    - Hyper Voice
    - Substitute

    [00:41:54] #Disjunction'!!: I hate that this doesn't sound like complete shit

    Now originally I tried a physical set due to it having a higher attack base stat a access to better STAB moves to abuse Adaptability, however almost everything in the tier walled it even at +2, such as the omnipresent Steelix and things like Cofagrigus; which was really, really annoying. I decided not to give up and opted for a special set, with Last Resort because you need it for the Z-Move lol. This set actually has very few resists bar Spiritomb and Sableye due to Stored Power having a base power of 220. I actually decided that Substitute was its best option as things like Shadow Ball and Hidden Powers are literally useless and Sub gives you way more set up options versus more defensive mons. After talking with Shane, Modest seems better bar not outspeeding Scarf Vanilluxe or Passimian.

    Here's some replays showing it off (even though the teams are memes lol):
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nubeta-596493337
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nubeta-595910084
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nubeta-596393515
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  24. cyanize

    cyanize

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    197
    Alright, I'm here to nom a mon that has been rather slept on imo

    [​IMG]
    Vikavolt C+ -> B- (maybe even B but that's probably ambitious lol)

    Vikavolt @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Energy Ball
    - Bug Buzz
    - Roost

    Vikavolt is actually a really dope defensive pivot, it comes into so many different things and threatens them out/chunks them with its still quite strong attacks. It has really nice resistances to Fighting, Steel, Electric, and Grass with an immunity to Ground, and is only weak to two things. Vikavolt is also super hard to stop to stop from pivoting around because it beats all the relevant Grounds 1v1 (0 SpA Vikavolt Energy Ball vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 107-126 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery, for example). And to top it all off, it actually has really damn good bulk:

    wall of calcs (open)

    252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 148-175 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 161-191 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vikavolt: 174-204 (48.6 - 56.9%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (yes this is a resist but it's still a rly strong move :v )
    +2 252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 190-225 (53 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Samurott Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 186-219 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 160-190 (44.6 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 161-191 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vikavolt: 160-189 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    and so on... i think you get the point lol


    So yeah, I think it warrants a rise, and I recommend you guys try it out :0
  25. DW Sacky

    DW Sacky

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    [​IMG] A ---) A+


    Huge NU Threat .

    It check a lot of NU offensive threats like Tyrantrum , Virizion , Hitmonlee and Delphox .

    It can set up Trick Room and Nasty Plot on defensive threats like Necrozma , Golbat and Uxie .
    After a Trick Room and a Nasty Plot , it has 634 spe atk and 58 speed , it can easily sweep any team without Spiritomb .

    Spiritomb is Cofagrigus's main counter , so strong special attackers like Vikavolt are good partners .
    Vikavolt's low speed and bug types make him one of the best offensive partner for Cofagrigus .

    [​IMG]
    C+ ---) B-

    One of the most powerful wallbreaker in this metagame .

    With its huge special attack ( 145 ) and its strong stabs ( Bug Buzz and Thunderbolt ), it can destroy a lot of defensive threats like Slowking & Slowbro , Necrozma , Rotom-C , Golbat , Jellicent , Uxie , Sigilyph , Xatu and Braviary !

    It can be played as a slow sweeper in a Trick Room team with Cofagrigus , Agility Sweeper , scarf or specs .
    LORD HELIX 65 and Pepeduce like this.

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