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Resources SM NU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'NeverUsed' started by Kiyo, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Tato2772

    Tato2772

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
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    [​IMG] B-<B+

    i think banded cinccino is a really underrated mon Its unique because of its ability skill link which lets it break sashes on the likes of froslass, omastar, vivillon, aurorus and archeops. It forces a lot of switches and having u-turn is really handy for getting momentum on garbodor, steelix or druddigon so having a xatu on your team is really helpful. Ghost types arent really a problem since mismagius and rotom get knocked out by rock blast or bullet seed after rocks. Theres spiritomb but it gets 2hko anyways and its not that common anymore with meloetta gone. its amazing speed tier is something to note. Reaching an outstanding 361 it lets it outspeeed and OHKO a lot of non scarf common threats such as virizion, mismagius, delphox and a lot of other mons. It also 2hkos bro, golbat and plume! None of them are switch ins! Ofc rocky helmet is something you have to worry about but but you can work around it and with the right support this mon can do wonders.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-629907434 In this match with steelix gone cinccino had the chance to wreck havoc. Unfortunetly hax didnt let the match end (sorry orphic).
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-629925092 turn 30

    calcs (open)
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 165-200 (41.8 - 50.7%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 155-185 (43.7 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 255-300 (97.7 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
    Da Raikage, MaahirMomtaz12 and -Davon like this.
  2. Earth

    Earth formerly Hootie
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
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    [​IMG] A- > D Rank (Support)

    Sandslash-Alola definitely becomes worthless now that Veil is banned, but still has to be ranked since it's NU by usage; so D rank fits it perfectly. It has no niche aside from AVeil, being a pretty poor Spinner and Pokemon in general.

    Here's my nom:

    [​IMG] B -> B-

    I'm really not a fan of Lilligant in the current metagame, and I feel like it's pretty overshadowed by the variety of special Grass-type Pokemon. There are really not enough reasons to run Lilligant over the likes of Rotom-Mow, Sceptile or even Whimsicott. It has a fair niche in Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance, but I think it struggles a lot to set up currently, and it lacks good coverage options. Z-Moves such as Z Dream Eater and Z Hyper Beam can be great but they're still pretty much one-time options that become pretty iffy when the Z move is wasted. Basically, I don't think Lilligant should stay in B as there are much better options as of right now but it still has some merits in Quiver Dance and Sleep Powder, so B- should be good enough.
  3. PursuitOfHappiny

    PursuitOfHappiny

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
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    I'll have to disagree with this nom. Steelix is everywhere which is already a major thing why Cinccino isn't B+ worthy. Ghost-types are becoming more common and definitely hinder Cinccino since it can't spam its STAB move. Pokemon that use Rocky Helmet like Xatu, Druddigon and Garbodor, severely chip Cinncino and since it doesn't have recovery it can get worn down very easily. The band set is also pretty easy to work around. Slowbro switches out after taking the Bullet Seed and can easily pivot into something that resists Bullet Seed. Same with Rock Blasting the Golbat. In practice this mon is super underwhelming since it's so easy to work around it and it almost always ends up switching out without actually accomplishing anything. Its speed tier is nice and all but the negatives far outweigh the positives.

    Agreeing on:
    [​IMG] S --> A+
    [​IMG] B+ --> A-
    [​IMG] C- > UR
  4. Martin

    Martin Abyssal
    is a Live Chat Contributor

    Joined:
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    I'm gonna make a very ballsy nomination here that is kinda an extension of an existing nomination. Maybe it's slightly warped by my playing and building style, but honestly I do belive that this Pokemon is more than deserving of this.

    [​IMG] --> S
    To put it bluntly, Vikavolt is the Pokemon that scares me the most when I play and build in this tier. Not Emboar or Vanilluxe or anything else: Vikavolt. The way it warps the way that is feasible to build defensively-inclined teams is simply impossible to ignore for me; if you try to build a stall/semi-stall or balance team without Togedemaru, it will leave a gaping hole in your defensive line that this monster will take advantage of, and its good bulk and defensive typing along with its ability to force out the omnipresent Slowbro leaves it with a huge number of opportunities to just switch in and severely dent something on the opposing team and allows it to also thrive vs offensive archetypes despite its disappointing Speed tier; if you don't resist what it uses you get severely pummeled, and even if you do you're still probably getting chunked anyway. It is just so easy to generate positive momentum and opportunities to fire off a nuke that it ends up not struggling or being dead weight in any matchups, and its extremely high usage and excellent record in both tournament play and ladder play is testimony to the vast amount of utility and power that it brings to the table, and to me at least it has every characteristic that I look for in an S rank. Jarii and Disjunction brought up anything else I could say in their A+ noms, so I'll leave it there, but I did want to put this on the table even if it does just end up being shot down or whatever.
    Aaronboyer, nv, Muscle K and 10 others like this.
  5. Fragmented

    Fragmented

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    Jun 26, 2014
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    In defence of Alolan Sandslash, I don't think it is deserving of a drop to D, maybe C- would be suffice. It lost its niche as an AVeil setter due to the recent ban, and its outclassed by almost every other physical attacker and sweeper in the tier. The many fighting types hard check it, and it literally dies to any hit it doesn't resist. However putting it in the same rank as Claydol is a bit harsh imo, because unlike Claydol, A-Slash actually has offensive presence. Base 100 attack is decent and Ice is great typing offensively. Coupled with decent coverage options, it could perform sweeps on more offensively based teams. It complements Vanilluxe well, taking on the special walls that puts Vanilluxe's reign of terror to a slow down during the short turns of Hail it can actually get. It's also an ice type that doesn't exactly hate rocks and can also threaten spinblockers. With proper team support, it could sweep unprepared teams, although that could be said for many other things (turtonator). With that said, hopefully this mon doesn't drop all the way to the D pit and is actually able to pull its weight.

    Alternatively, we could let it drop to D, then subsequently to PU which would unrank it and I could always try to nom it again but eh.
  6. Count Riario

    Count Riario

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
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    I actually fully agree with this post, with perhaps the exception of delphox.

    I dont really need to add much, besides the fact that I strongly think that vanilluxe should be A+ for having no good switch-ins whatsover. The best check to this monster is legitimately AV incineroar, perhaps max spedef AV slowking with fire blast/max spedef cryo, and thick fat piloswine. 3 Of which have no direct recovery (due to 2 AVs and pilo with only rest as an option), and cryogonal being unable to use veil makes it less usefull (and used) than it used to be. Having switchins for this thing is incredibly hard, and they are worn down pretty quickly or pressured by some of vanilluxes partners. Not only is the specs set incredibly hard-hitting, even the scarf set is a legitimate threat, being able to outspeed most of the metagame and still hitting extremely hard with its blizzards. All-in-all I think vanilluxe is quickly becoming a meta-defining monster that should be reckoned as such.

    [​IMG] A- --> A+
  7. Moron5

    Moron5

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    16
    Let's talk new drops:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mega-Audino for B+

    I think it is at least as good as Aromatisse if not better in certain ways. While Aromatisse enjoys being the less passive attacker with a higher base sp atk, taunt immunity, a fighting resistance, and moonblast, Mega Audino is immune to trick, ghost attacks, can scout early game with regenerator, and much more insane bulk when mega evolved. Mega-Audino is also more versatile than Aromatisse and can run options like surf and fire blast for offensive calm mind sets and knock off for utility. If you are looking for a RestTalk style mon or a reliable wish passer, it won't disappoint.

    Froslass for B+(for now)

    Froslass has given hyper offense a new face by offering the best of both worlds in not only spikes but a way to threaten every hazard removal in the tier: Ice STAB. This makes it at least above Qwilfish imo who could at most scald Xatu or discourage Hitmonlee. 110 speed is no joke and Froslass being a natural spinblocker will keep Hitmonlee's on edge. While it's main role is to spike up, Froslass can a multitude of move options and item choices to complement and essentially pick and choose it's counters (t-wave, destiny bond, life orb, focus sash, specs, icy wind, taunt). However, Froslass feels very weak in matchups against Sneasels as it could at most set up 1 spike before being outsped and pursuited. Besides struggling versus Sneasel, Froslass is a solid mon I can see rising but B+ is a good start.

    [​IMG]
    Seismitoad for A-/A

    I know I already nominated this but since then, there has been an upsurge of offensive rocks Seismitoad which puts heavy pressure on not only Xatu, but scares any grasses that try to switch in with Expert Belt boosted Sludge Wave. I believe that this mon is at least as good as the higher rockers (Druddigon maybe Steelix, and Rhydon) and is overall is just a solid glue mon.

    [​IMG]
    Magmortar for C+/C

    As much as some people like to bag Incineroar, Magmortar is actually worse most of the time. Incineroar's dark typing let's it effectively hard counter Delphox and Houndoom but after a boost, it becomes overwhelming for Magmortar to handle. Vital Spirit is too niche as of the moment because Liligant nor Jynx are too hot right now and Vivillion does like 80% min after a quiver with z-hurricane.
    Incoming that one guy who runs choice specs Magmortar over other fire shit

    [​IMG]
    Miltank for C-

    Okay this seems a little like a meme but thick fat spdef Miltank is probably the only rocker that can switch in the Vanilluxe and has reliable recovery in milk drink. It does this while simalaneously checking Sneasel, Mismagius, and Delphox. Body Slam spam eventually scares Xatu from coming in as well. Niche but not that horrible.

    Calcs:
    252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 114-135 (29 - 34.3%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 118-141 (30 - 35.8%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

    +2 252 SpA Mismagius Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 136-160 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- 56.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Miltank: 183-216 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    EDIT: Sir Kay's spread is the new wave, he's not playing around.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-630950606
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
    DurzaOffTopic, Fragmented and neomn like this.
  8. Sir Kay

    Sir Kay Trace music makes the fairies dance
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Sep 1, 2014
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    [​IMG]
    A- ---> A/A+
    Garbodor has gotten a lot better with the recent meta trends. People are now seeing you don't need to slap Slowbro on every team to deal with scarf Emboar because you can just run a bulky water with protect + Garbodor and be just fine. And because of this Garbs been seeing a huge spike in popularity which warrants a bump in viability because of its new found staple spot on a lot of teams. Turns out if you can't beat broken mons you just chip them down with rocky helmet + aftermath.


    [​IMG]
    B- ---> C+
    Togedmaru has been a victim of its own success. As the tier adapted to deal with it, Togedmaru fails to be able to keep up with the ever adapting metagame. This mons impact on the tier has been nothing short of amazing, but players have become wise to what Togedmaru does. Players have long since started teching HP Ground on their ice types to deal with it, and players are all around just smarter about playing around it. People don't just blindly click volt switch anymore against it or mindlessly attack with Vikavolt when its on the enemy team. This mons still very good because it does hard answer a lot of annoying mons such as Vika and rotom-m, but losing its status as the premier ice resist really should knock it out of B-.


    I 100% support the miltank nom but I'm going to take it a step farther and say it should probably end up in B- or B. The mons super solid right now with the tier adapting to Togedmaru, Miltank now fills that void as a catch all ice resist with a ton of added utility. I'd recommend not going with a full specially defensive set but using something like THIS. You speed creep adamant rot, the defense keeps knock off from cb sneasel from 2hkoing after rocks, and you have enough sp.d left over to deal with all the pesky ice types as well as quite a few key fire types still.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  9. cyanize

    cyanize

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
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    192
    I had a really long draft on why Scept shouldn't drop but it got deleted asdsadhfvjbael

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Basically, I believe that the increase in balanced teams prepping for it (and by extension, Rotom-C) so heavily shouldn't really be an indicator that it is getting worse, and if anything shows its dominance in the meta even more sharply. Also, most of the things that are actually threatening get like one switchin to Scept bar like Vikavolt and a well-played Guzzlord. Not to say that the 'mons being used are bad in any way (bar maybe that rat >.>), but if balances are almost required to have one of Guzzlord/Vika/Plume/Bat or multiple weaker checks in order to not lose something every time Scept enters the field, I'd say that is the threat level of an S rank mon. Additionally, Sceptile is actually disgusting to face vs offensive teams as there are extremely few offensive Grass resists that can switch in more than once, especially when you throw the fact that it often takes only one turn of correct prediction to make even those 'mons unable to take on Leaf Storm the next time it comes in - for example, predicting Virizion with HP Ice/Focus Blast once combined with a round of SR means it is no longer a Leaf Storm switchin.

    I'm not entirely opposed to seeing it drop to A+, but if it should then Rotom-C should likely drop as well as it is suffering similarly from meta trends without the ridiculous offense-busting capabilities that Scept has, and instead is salvaged by its ability to pivot and get teammates onto the field. What I think the problem is, though, is that the two undisputed S-Ranks (Bro and Emboar) are so far and away the best Pokemon in the tier that they make other extremely impactful 'mons seem worse by comparison, as there is so little adaptation available to dethrone them. Look at ORAS's S Ranks, for example; Mesprit, Tauros, Rhydon, and Xatu all had significant and abundant counterplay, and yet removing any of them from S would be a crime as they were all ridiculously influential on the meta despite being very obviously balanced.


    On a different note, I agree with most if not all of the other noms presented so far (bar gastro i think that's an unexplored mon), and wanna point out that I think Cinccino is a criminally underrated mon atm, especially with offensive styles being on the rise thanks to the devil itself Froslass dropping. Steelix's omnipresence never stopped Sneasel any, fwiw, and Cincci does a pretty good job of chipping the hell out of it whenever it tries to come in anyways. I also think Froslass definitely deserves much higher than B+.
  10. Tato2772

    Tato2772

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
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    To be fair the only big notable issues that ive had with cinccino is the accuracy factor (tail slap is 85% and rock blast 90%) and of course steelix but like cyanize said Sneasel has problems with steelix too and its still A+.
    Banded cinccino hits so hard that it doesnt entirely need its stab to function when facing teams with ghost types which it can kill anyways. Bullet seed and rock blast hit amazingly hard not to say it is amazing coverage. It can get chip damage on all the common rocky helmet users with rock blast without suffering recoil. It does 55-68% to slowbro with bullet seed and 59-70% to golbat with rock blast (tail slap 2hkos them anyways) so youre not really pivoting comfortably around big poppa cincc. Great momentum gainer AND GREAT SPEED TIER. To be honest it doesnt belong with any of the mons that are in B- or even some that are in B rank and i truly believe it belongs at least in B+.

    calcs (open)
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garbodor: 140-165 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 130-155 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 220-270 (55.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 210-250 (59.3 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  11. Watchog

    Watchog

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
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    315
    [​IMG] B- -> B+: Disagree

    I feel the problem with Cincinno is that you offer no defensive presence at all and you're forced to run Choice Band and predict every turn to be threatening offensively. This is a big problem because shoddy defenses like the ones Cincinno has (75/60/60 is pretty garbage) only leads to it being revenge killed by scarfers and faster mons (like Sceptile). Another problem that it has is that you're forced to play predictions almost every turn. Having to choose between your coverage moves is risky and could end up putting you in a bad spot. For example, against Ghost types Cincinno has to choose between clicking Tail Slap a coverage move. This could pose a problem because a) if you mispredict and click Tail Slap you're going to be sitting there choiced locked against a ghost type or b) your opp can switch out to a better check and since you're choiced locked you're in a really tough position. It's win rate is 0% in NUPL because honestly I think it's a liability to any team that it's on and could be replaced by a lot more threatening pokemon (sneasel for example). Hopefully this post made sense.

    Edit: I forgot about the bad matchups it had against many very common pokemon in the tier. It does absolutely nothing against Steelix or Garbodor (the latter threatens it with rocky helmet). With Garbodor on the rise it seems like Cincinno can only go down from here.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  12. Gefährlicher Random

    Gefährlicher Random

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    [​IMG]

    Guzzlord for A/A+

    (sorry for my bad english lul)

    I feel like the current meta is very adventages to Guzzlord. The huge prominence of Grass Types and the rise of Mons like Delphox is great for this mon. Simply put, Guzzlord checks half of the meta, doesnt loose any momentum at all, has very few reliable switch-ins and fits on a shit ton of builds. Against Offense Guzzlord safely comes in on 1-2 Mons most of the time and the answer for it is choose between Lix and Scarf Emboar (both die if you get the move right). Against Balance you get plenty of switch-ins and most of the time Guzzlord ruins those common Balance Cores. In my opinion its way to easy to slap Guzzlord on a team, you get a reliable breaker, a great check/counter to many common mons, and a pokemon which beats like 80% of the metagame 1v1.

    Here are some Calcs:

    Calcs (open)

    252 Atk Virizion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 510-600 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Virizion: 345-406 (106.8 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 558-656 (95 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

    252 SpA Mismagius Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 372-440 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mismagius: 338-398 (129.5 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ SpA Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 434-512 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vanilluxe: 297-351 (104.9 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 434-512 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vikavolt: 363-427 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    In my opinion Guzzlord a fantastic breaker in the current meta, because of the lack of good Fairys and the huge prominence of offensive Fire and Grass types and it easily fits on many teams without paying a price really.
    lolbro, Youzuban, neomn and 2 others like this.
  13. Count Riario

    Count Riario

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    Feb 2, 2016
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    Honestly I agree with most of what you're saying. I do have to reply with the fact that mega audino very recently dropped into the tier and I'm neither sure what its usage is right now, nor what it will be, but if it becomes very popular, it will be a huge switchin to guzzlord and u probably lose all momentum. That being said, it still dents offense very heavily and i always find myself searching for switchins (especially since dragon in this meta is very good offensively: few fairies and few (good) steel types).

    To give an example:

    Even if you do predict the Audino coming out, they can run enough bulk to take two specs sludge bombs even after mega'ing, unless u get the poison. In its non-mega form it obviously takes sludge bombs well, but hates draco:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Audino: 244-288 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Audino: 123-145 (30 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Anyways, i guess my point is that i definitely agree with you on the fact that guzzlord right now is really good offensively, but i also want to wait and see how the meta settles with the new drops, as well as state that guzzlords very bad speed (and with no way to boost it) makes it more easily revenged.
  14. PursuitOfHappiny

    PursuitOfHappiny

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
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    359
    Sceptile and Rotom-C are similar but I feel that Rotom-C has an easier time dealing with its checks than Sceptile does. I think Rotom-C's Z-move sets are the most dangerous because they're so good at bluffing Choiced sets. People often scout with Protect (leading to a rise in popularity of Tect Seismitoad) to see if Rotom-C is choiced. Even when it clicks Volt Switch or Thunderbolt on in this case Seismitoad/Steelix, it can still KO you with Leaf Storm/Bloom Doom. I've seen people run Shattered Psyche Rotom-C to have a better matchup vs Vileplume, this is the best example of Rotom-C's flexibility. Rotom-C also has the big advantage of Volt Switching out when your Leaf Storm or Z-Move didn't pay off. So moving Rotom-C a rank down isn't necessarily linked with a Sceptile drop.
    tenkai, rhydonphilip and neomn like this.
  15. MaahirMomtaz12

    MaahirMomtaz12

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    May 9, 2016
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    Mega Audino is the ONLY counter really to Guzzlord so rising it to A/A+ is acceptable
  16. DurzaOffTopic

    DurzaOffTopic

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2016
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    494
    Really


    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 96-114 (23.6 - 28%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 165-195 (46.6 - 55%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO
    (Easy recovery)

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 64-76 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 229-271 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (easily roosts off damage)

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 136-162 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (again, easy recovery if rocks are not up)

    Guzzlord doesn't want to click Draco. It can't secure 2HKOs with it. A huge amount of the time it will click dark pulse, which the fighting-type heavy tier resists with ease.

    I love Guzzlord and I use it a lot, especially recently but its not worthy of A+. It requires too much prediction and has too poor a speed tier to be classified with these other A+ ranks.
    Count Riario, cyanize, lolbro and 3 others like this.
  17. Fragmented

    Fragmented

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    Jun 26, 2014
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    With the exception of Aromatisse, most of these checks you mention are weak to rocks, turning most of these 2HKOs into OHKOs. Secondly, Guzzlord gets coverage in Fire Blast and Sludge Wave, easily destroying 3/5 of the aformentioned checks. Also, none of the fighting types in the tier, bar AV Yama, likes to switch in on a Specs Dark Pulse.

    Additionally, I doubt most Golbats run max SpDef due to the tier being plagued by many fighting types, and max SpDef only really being useful for like Sceptile and Choice-locked Rotom-Mow, but I might be wrong. Also AV Incineroar shouldn't even be considered a switch in since it only lives on Draco; it's main purpose is to counter the likes of Delphox, Houndoom and Mismagous not running Power Gem.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 290-342 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    i doubt you need a calc for scyther, seeing how much it already takes from Draco.

    Furthermore Guzzlord can also run AV to check special sweepers like Slowbro, Delphox not running Dazzling Gleam (which it should by now) and Houndoom, trading power for more bulk but still being able to hit hard of base 97 SpAtk. Overall, Guzzlord is a scary mon that is capable of punishing poor switches and destroying teams, and a mon that threatens such that people start running Dazzling Gleam is definitely worth of A+.

    Edit: I really don't like this mon (i don't like alot of mons), and i do feel that A+ maybe too high, but it definitely deserves to be ranked A-/A seeing how few switch ins it has.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  18. Eternally

    Eternally duck for cover
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

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    New update!

    Code:
    Rises:
    Barbaracle A --> A+
    Delphox A -->A+
    Vikavolt A -->A+
    Vanilluxe A -->A+
    Vaporeon B+ --> A-
    Gallade C+ --> B-
    Cryogonal B --> B+
    Crustle UR --> C-
    Haunter UR --> C
    Miltank UR --> C+
    Mega Audino NEW --> A-
    Froslass NEW --> A
    Hariyama C+ --> B
    
    Drops:
    Sceptile S --> A+
    Aurorus A- --> B-
    Hitmontop B- --> C
    Togetic C- --> UR
    Gastrodon C+ --> C
    Eelektross C --> C-
    Sandslash-Alola A- --> D
    
    Reasoning (open)

    [​IMG] By now everyone has seen just how horrifying this thing can be to face, it takes advantage of passive teams and completely decimates common balance cores thanks to Rockium-Z and options such as Grass Knot. The VR team unanimously agreed that Barbaracle is the most dangerous sweeper in the tier and therefore deserves to rise to A+.
    [​IMG] Delphox has risen due to a combination of it's Choice Scarf set seeing good tournament success (It's also one of the few scarfers able to revenge Barbaracle at +2) and CM sets becoming popular breakers with very few defensive stops.
    [​IMG] Vikavolt is quickly becoming one of the most feared breakers in the tier with it's destructive Specs and Bugnium-Z sets that have got less than a handful of defensive checks. Furthermore, Vikavolt has a solid defensive typing and decent bulk which lets it deal with some of the best Pokemon in the tier like Sceptile, Rotom-Mow, Sneasel, and Hitmonlee.
    [​IMG] Vanilluxe, similarly to Vikavolt completely annihilates bulkier teams and only needs two moveslots to do it, meaning it has room for coverage to pick off it's counters, e.g Flash Cannon for Cryogonal and HP Ground for Togedemaru. Specs Vanilluxe has very little counterplay outside of revenge killing while Scarf threatens offense immensely.
    [​IMG] Vaporeon's Wish support is extremely useful in the current meta with popular balance cores of Guzzlord, Steelix, etc being at a peak in usage. Vaporeon also deals with the rise in Fire-types quite well, and has also had offensive sets such as Z-Celebrate see some success.
    [​IMG] Cryogonal has proven itself in NUPL to be a popular rapid spinner and arguably one of the most consistent due to it's reliable recovery, titanic special bulk, and great offensive typing. Ice-type resists in general are very useful in the current meta due to the rise of Vanilluxe.
    [​IMG] The VR council decided to place Mega Audino in A-. MAudino's ridiculous bulk, solid typing and access to recovery makes it a consistently difficult Pokemon to take down and really pressures offensive teams and balance alike. CM RestTalk literally never dies and Offensive sets with CM or Healing Wish can tear open holes for other teammates to take advantage of. Overall, it was decided that MAudino provides a lot of support to teams and A- was a good spot for it to start.
    [​IMG] Froslass was put into A on the basis of its incredibly effective Life Orb Spikes set which works wonder in pressuring all hazard removers and keeping up hazards for Offensive teams while also being annoying to switch it. The Lead set isn't quite as effective but is worth a mention too.
    [​IMG] Hitmontop is far too weak and passive for this metagame, it struggles to check what it's supposed to due to a lack of recovery and reliance on Close Combat to deal damage. To make matters worse, Hitmontop cannot reliably threaten Spinblockers and loses to the 3 most common Spikers in the tier.
    [​IMG] With Aurora Veil banned Alolan Sandslash is made completely useless outside of being a sweeper under Hail, unfortunately Hail is a very mediocre playstyle and Sandslash's offensive typing gives it issues breaking through
    [​IMG] Disjunction summed it up perfectly in his post:
    If anyone has questions on shifts that weren't discussed feel free to ask a member of the VR Council.
    Fragmented, nv, Deku Prince and 16 others like this.
  19. DurzaOffTopic

    DurzaOffTopic

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    Guzzlord doesn't want to click Fire Blast or Sludge Wave on anything else but guarenteed checks because if they switch something else in, it does quite low damage neutrally without STAB. I'm just saying the choice locking really hurts Guzzlord more than most.

    AV Guzzlord doesn't really have a niche imo because all three special sweepers you mentioned do nothing to guzzlord anyway.

    252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 135-160 (21.2 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

    4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 72-85 (11.3 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
    +2 4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 144-169 (22.6 - 26.6%) -- 26.1% chance to 4HKO

    +2 252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 265-312 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    While Guzzlord on the other hand needs specs to secure KOs on all three.
    252+ SpA Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom: 229-270 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Houndoom: 342-403 (117.5 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ SpA Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 422-500 (107.1 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ SpA Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Delphox: 236-278 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Delphox: 350-414 (120.2 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    lolbro likes this.
  20. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    346
    [​IMG]to B+
    Recently, a lot of you know that Togedemaru has surged in usage, and for good reason too. Since Vikavolt has picked in usage, Togedemaru began to be used as a switch-in to Thunderbolt. This works very well, since, not only does it 4x resist, but also has access to Lightning Rod as well. It was then soon found that it's also a switch-in to Bug Buzz too, which is really nice. It's also a really good switch-in to Vanilluxe as long as they aren't Hidden Power Ground, and even works as a check to Rotom-C.

    Togedemaru also has access to a variety of support moves, including Wish. Wish is really what sets this Pokemon apart from Steelix, besides switching into Vikavolt. This allows it to Wish pass into it's teammates, and this is especially nice for Emboar which gets worn down by Flare Blitz. Obviously, Wish allows it to heal itself, without taking damage too, thanks to it's access to the rare move Spiky Shield. Spiky Shield punishes physical attackers like Emboar and Barbaracle by doing 1/8th of max per Spiky Shield. This may seem small, but paired with Stealth Rocks and other hazards this will eventually add up to be a lot. Togedemaru has also ran Toxic, which is useful against Slowbro, as well as Vikavolt so you don't just sit there and hope it swaps out.

    Togedemaru also gets U-Turn, which allows it to pivot out from it's counters. If you want to be that guy, you can use the fun (but rare), option of Nuzzle, to parahax those Emboars. Other than that though, you can also run Encore to force switches. Zing Zap is also an option, and is kind of common, just as a main source of damage for Togedemaru.

    It has been argued that the meta game is adapting to Togedemaru, as a lot of Pokemon are running HP Ground. This is why I'm not really shoving Togedemaru any higher, since it is slowly becoming less of a problem. However, for now, I believe Todegemaru is B+ material.
  21. DurzaOffTopic

    DurzaOffTopic

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    I disagree immensely with this nom.

    Togedemaru can learn wish, sure - but off of base 65 HP. This really is a waste of a move in my opinion as this recovery is pretty damn low for wish passing. Why do you keep citing Emboar as something that it is useful against? It's not. Togedemaru is too slow to effectively use U-turn to pivot out of its own counters - U-turn is used to pivot out of a choice locked electric / grass type that is forced to switch so you can gain momentum. One of the reasons Togedemaru deserves a drop in rank is because it checked rising Ice-types as well as special electric and grass types. Unfortunately for Togedemaru, the primary Ice-type it was checking was Vanilluxe - which has such limited coverage options that it can afford to easily run HP Ground. Now you're forced to run another Ice-check on your team and now the role compression that made Togedemaru so attractive recently is now cut heavily. If you're in the NU room on PS its kind of a running joke that when new players ask for advice for building their first team someone always says "Always have an ice check" and now Togedemaru really doesn't effectively check ice cream anymore. Even Vikavolt and Sceptile are running HP Ground relatively commonly in the current metagame. There are plenty of things that check grass spam just as well and as long as you have a ground type on your team electric types are going to be careful when clicking their electric STAB. Togedemaru also has a problem with 4-MoveSlot Syndrome (4MSS) as it really wants to run a lot more support moves than it can afford to. On top of all this, Togedemaru is way too passive offensively and can easily get set-up on or be just dead weight versus multiple playstyles. Its very machup-based and cannot contribute well to a battle unless the opponent has any of the things that Togedemaru hard checks.

    TL;DR Togedemaru deserves a drop to C+, much less a boost up 2 levels to B+.
    Raseri, Allstar and Hilomilo like this.
  22. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    346
    A lot of what you said is a misinterpretation of my post. Wish has nothing to do with base 65 HP, so I don't see the point there. I was never citing that Emboar was something Togedemaru was good against, at all, I was just suggesting that it can damage Emboar is needed. The idea of U-Turn is not to stay in on a Pokemon then pivot, it is to pivot when the said Pokemon switches in for chip. For Vanilluxe, I did mention that Pokemon like it were starting to run Hidden Power Ground, which is why I didn't push for A- or something higher. In no way does Togedemaru suffer from 4MSS, because in a lot of situations it does not need access to every support move. Togedemaru isn't meant to be offensive, but rather to stall out Pokemon using Wish in most cases, and get chip off. Kind of like Jirachi, it's meant to be annoying.
    tenkai and MaahirMomtaz12 like this.
  23. LORD HELIX 65

    LORD HELIX 65

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2017
    Messages:
    52
    Incineroar for B/B+
    As new additions like Mega Audino and Froslass drop to NU, and with Pokémon weak to Incineroar on the rise like Delphox, Togedemaru, Vanilluxe, Vikavolt, and Cryogonal, Incineroar is looking more and more promising. It's assault vest set lets it tank special hits well and dish out damage to these threats.
    MaahirMomtaz12 likes this.
  24. neomn

    neomn

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2017
    Messages:
    80
    Incineroar -> B/B+
    disagree

    Incineroar has a fantastic typing in the current NU metagame, but there is just too much limiting it. My fave SM NU team has a Incineroar on it, so i can talk from experience, that it might look like a fantastic tank on paper but usually gets weakened way too fast to do any significant tanking. Additionally, to really efficiently use Incineroar you basically need Xatu+additional remova to really be safe or Golbat/Cryo which arent always the most reliable removal. With rocks up incineroar is basically dead weight and really fails to do anything.
    CKW, Count Riario and Sir Kay like this.
  25. DurzaOffTopic

    DurzaOffTopic

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2016
    Messages:
    494
    Honestly you didn't really respond to my two key points in my post -
    1) Togedemaru is way too passive and is dead weight versus any teams without the things it hard checks.
    2) Togedemaru is losing to two things it was used to check - Vanilluxe and Vikavolt.
    Clearly you don't know how Wish works.

    Wish [​IMG] [​IMG] Accuracy-- 16PPNext turn, 50% of the user's max HP is restored.

    Emphasis on user. If Togedemaru uses wish to pass HP to a teammate they will only receive half of Togedemaru's Max HP, which with its base 65 isn't that much.

    So you're saying it can get chip damage as a way of damaging opponents? Doesn't seem like a very convincing point to me since you are saying the only reason you don't want it "A- or higher" is because of HP Ground.

    This literally proves my point. The fact that Togedemaru needs different movesets for different situations is the definition of a mon that has 4MSS. You yourself mentioned 7 moves (U-turn, Wish, Spiky Shield, Nuzzle, Zing Zap, Toxic, and Encore) that I will agree all have their own use but with only 4 moveslots you are going to miss out on something that is easily taken advantage on, most commonly Togedemaru's passivity.

    Since when do mons jump from B- to A- in a single post? Thats not really how the VR works.

    Togedemaru doesn't have the necessary bulk to stall out anything. When I said its too passive, I meant that it is easily set up on since it has nothing to hit back with. Passive mons are terrible in this metagame and can be deadweight in so many situations though they fill their specific niche. Don't even say it can use encore because that doesn't exist on any relevant Togedemaru sets.

    "Annoying" Pokemon are not fit to be high on the viability rankings. Sorry. At least Jirachi has a good base HP to wish pass and has far more usable support and offensive options as sets go. And on top of that Jirachi is only B on the viability rankings for SM OU.

    Honestly for me its sealed by one huge deal breaker because of metagame adaption in my opinion - Togedemaru really doesn't effectively check Ice anymore. It even loses to the increasingly more standard HP Ground Vikavolt.
    Aaronboyer, CKW, Deku Prince and 14 others like this.

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