Announcement SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt

[Boomfan56]

There are plentiful arguments that are valid on either side, but the main reason I'm not a huge fan of dugtrio is because it makes the metagame more matchup based and therefore less skill based. People show replays where dugtrio does very well, and then it is refuted by examples where it does not do anything at all, and this is a main issue with it that not a lot of people bring up. It will do a disproportionate amount of support work in matchups where it is strong (assisting a sweep, removing a major breaker), and literally nothing when it's in an unfavorable one. It also encourages the use of shed shell, which is 95% of situations will worsen your matchup, but is very good when facing a dugtrio team.

The reason that the "you have to prep for any mon so why is dugtrio any different" argument isn't really valid is that prepping your team for dugtrio doesn't really help against any other pokemon in the entire metagame. If you add a sturdy psychic resist on your team for Tapu Lele for example, it gives you options against other relevant psychic types as well such as Alakazam, Hoopa, and Latios. If you prep for dugtrio you're prepping for it and nothing else. If you prep for duggy it hurts you whenever the other team doesn't have it, hence why it perpetuates a matchup based metagame.

Just my 2 cents

 

[I like pink mons]

...You do realize Unaware Quagsire's a thing, right?

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 146-174 (45.7 - 54.5%) -- 48.8% chance to 2HKO

The only way Lando-T could conceivably beat a stall team with Quag is through Z-Fly, and even then, it needs to caught it by surprise (and also be an offensive lando in the first place). And that's assuming the player's willing to stay into a healthy Quag, unless you argue that's what U-turn is for, and for that it needs to either sacrifice SR or SD.

Other than that, Lando-T shouldn't have any problems watsoever with stall. Just remember to not slap it Rocky Helmet or Scarf, otherwise, you might wanna look for another stallbreaker inmune to Arena Trap.





1. Quagsire says hi. Also, the same argument I used for Lando can be applied here.
2. Throw Chansey and Seismic Toss the thing to death. In practice, most Greninjas have Gunk Shot as their only physical move and they heavily rely that it doesn't miss to get past the blob. And the less said about Ash-Greninja, the better.
3. Knock Off.
4. It dies against Quag once you've scouted it. You really shouldn't mention it if you want Duggy to stay. Just sayin'
5. Taunt it with Sable, then switch into Chansey. Poison it and then click Seismic Toss.
6. Depends of the Clefable. If it is Unaware you poison it. If it is Magic Guard then you just stall it. And if it lacks Flamethrower you throw Shed to drain the PPs.
7. Necro can beat stall? Since when? if so, I would like to know the set.

Sorry but you're just wrong. QUAGSIRE DOES NOT PREVENT LANDORUS FROM USING SR. Do you even got my point ?
Having SR on the field versus stall is how you beat it. Landorus-T does not sweep stall teams, it sets up SR so a wallbreaker can win.
Quagsire is NOT an answer to Landorus-T rofl. Landorus-T forces Quagsire to switch in and it uses Stealth Rock... Your point is totally irrelevant and you totally missed the thing... It is not about beating the threat, but about preventing the EH...

By the way:
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

1. Quagsire does not prevent Garchomp from using SR.
2. Chansey does not prevent Gren from using spikes.
3. "Knock Off" ? Loooooool how is that an answer to Marowak ?
5. Mega Sableye NEVER runs taunt ! Come on....
6. Why are you even mentioning Unaware Clefable omg... SR Clefable is Magic Guard + either LO or CM...
7. Necrozma with Moonblast + SR + Thunder Wave can use SR versus the Mega Sableye + Skarmory core.

Dude seriously you didn't understand anything and totally missed the thing. Don't even bother answering if that is to say something like that.

While I agree with the first half of the post regarding Msab and double defog, the second half needs to be taken with a rock of salt. If it was really so easy as slapping a rockium-z landot on a team to be able to handle stall 100% of the time, you think maybe everyone might do that? Especially considering half of teams have landot on them anyway?

This looking at things in a vacuum doesn't work. Let's analyze:

"Turn 1: Landorus-T uses SD, Skarmory switches in (let's say Skarmory is full life)."

So you're holding rockium-z, and not earth plate. This means MSab can stay in and wisp you. Goodbye landot.

"If Mega Sableye switches in, you are going to kill something and are in a strong position"

If mega sableye switches in as you rock, that means they got rocks up against you. I wouldn't exactly call this a 'strong position.' Again, msab can proceed to WoW you.

"If Skarmory uses Whirlwind, either you're lucky and can directly pressure Skarm, or just repeat the whole process."

If skarmory uses whirlwind, your momentum is disrupted and stall is doing exactly what it's supposed to: disrupt your momentum until you die.

"At this point you have won. "
"So if you follow what I have just written, you always win with SD + SR Rockium Landorus-T versus this team. Yet people still manage to lose (!!).."

Your post really fails to take into account, well, anything and everything involved in an actual live battle against a human. And dugtrio doesn't need a sash in order to pick up crucial kills, it just needs a safe switchin, either via RK or a double. Getting rocks up against stall is NOT an auto-win by any stretch.

Landorus-T is just one answer amongst others. I just took it as an example because it is the most common one.

Are you so stupid to understand that TURN 1 means "the first turn Landorus-T is on field" and not actually the first turn of the battle ? Of course you will not stay in with Landorus-T if you're facing Mega Sableye >.<

"If skarmory uses whirlwind, your momentum is disrupted and stall is doing exactly what it's supposed to: disrupt your momentum until you die."

Did you even read my post ? What is so hard to understand for your brain ? Like seriously.
I explained how Whirlwind is absolutely not an issue because:
1) If that makes you switch on a pokemon that can pressure Skarmory, you win the hazard war (as you used SR already).
2) If it's not, you can still start again the process I explained.

You don't care about momentum at that point.

I'm seriously being upset by the quality of the discussion.

Please re-read my post if you did not get it, I can't explain it better !!

 

[jjman99999]

Dear smogon players Hello mid tier ou player here look we all been look the problem all wrong way we should ban Dugtrio maybe. but not now because the (Meta) did give dug better conditions then even before .
And now the ladder is only metagoss teams or stall with muk-a . In my opinion i think the council is just pandering to some people.Because it can't be just Dugtrio in a suspect but haven't put most meta abuse pokemon in it. Don't you guys think about it.

 

[cityscapes]

I'm seriously being upset by the quality of the discussion.

same

1) Necrozma can't learn Moonblast
2) ad hominem has no place in a suspect thread
3) this post is not relevant to the suspect because it doesn't even mention Dugtrio ?_?

anyway, guess I'll share my thoughts on Dugtrio here:

Arena Trap can be kind of stupid when you're going up against it but there's plenty of more stupid things like the legendary metagoss teams.

The reason I will be voting no ban, though, is because I don't believe that Dugtrio reduces the impact of player skill. Even though it traps stuff, a good player can go for a double switch; this can lead to a massive momentum drain for the Dugtrio player.

Everyone is saying that Shed Shell Lele is dumb but I don't believe that it's necessary. Even with no defensive investment on Tapu Lele Dugtrio is forced to come in on a revenge kill or a double switch. This promotes skillful play because a stall player deserves to be in a good position if they can make use of double switches or innovative slow pivots in the teambuilding phase- hardly the skill-free, matchup based game people make it out to be.

tl;dr because it's difficult to actually trap things without sacrificing something, Dugtrio actually increases the amount of skill involved in the game, encouraging even stall players to make risky plays.

 

[Tripacci]

Dear smogon players Hello mid tier ou player here look we all been look the problem all wrong way we should ban Dugtrio maybe. but not now because the (Meta) did give dug better conditions then even before .
And now the ladder is only metagoss teams or stall with muk-a . In my opinion i think the council is just pandering to some people.Because it can't be just Dugtrio in a suspect but haven't put most meta abuse pokemon in it. Don't you guys think about it.

i dont mean any offense but what did it mean by 'havnt put most meta abuse pokemon.." did he mean suspect other pokemon aside from duggy? but i agree with the council pandering to some people i believe.

 

[jjman99999]

i dont mean any offense but what did it mean by 'havnt put most meta abuse pokemon.." did he mean suspect other pokemon aside from duggy? but i agree with the council pandering to some people i believe.

I mean pokemon mega metagoss,tapu's,ub's and etc. And i not saying we should i kinda mean in may suspect them a often used pokemon because looking at the suspect ladder we people can just make hyper offensive team's and making a lack of team variety . In my opinion do what ever to dug but don't complain when the meta get worse is some ways.

 

[zbr]

holy fuck the aids I'm getting just from reading these posts is insane

overseas now so I can't rly do much about laddering but here are some of my two cents about dugtrio:

it's normal to muddle up dug and at (arena trap) simply because it's almost impossible to isolate the problem in suspects that are of such nature where the problem is exarcebated by the fact that a lot of players have misconceived notions about the game. no reason to think so hard. in a game of pokemon, 6 members are needed to form a team, be it stall or offense. Dug helps solve a lot of inherent problems that stall is experiencing in a meta game that is full of threats that are hard to check.

however, we must keep in mind that what dug (not just dug but trapping in general) provides that particularly costs games is the mind games aspect of it. The cost of losing particular mons (dug trappable) in games is much more relevant in this generation due to huge phletora of threats available to us and this forces us to play in a more awkward fashion in order to attempt to play around it. Yes, dugtrio is actually a double edged sword in the fact that it actually has a chance to harm stall users using it due to the fact that you have to play a tad bit more cautious and safe much like weavile stall in the past, but the payoff you get simply from the mind games as well as potentially removing off particular threats to your team makes dugtrio a much more worthwhile mon to use and this fact is further worsened by the fact that it does this job effectively in stall.

overall, I think we may be faced with something that is a result of too many threats. stall is the furthest thing from easy to build and as a result, a lot of players tend to stick to safe and tested variations of teams. banning dug doesn't solve the issue because as we've seen and felt the effect in gen 6 before us, the problem isn't with trapping and who it traps, but rather who the trapping benefits as a whole.

 

[I like pink mons]

same

1) Necrozma can't learn Moonblast
2) ad hominem has no place in a suspect thread
3) this post is not relevant to the suspect because it doesn't even mention Dugtrio ?_?

anyway, guess I'll share my thoughts on Dugtrio here:

Arena Trap can be kind of stupid when you're going up against it but there's plenty of more stupid things like the legendary metagoss teams.

The reason I will be voting no ban, though, is because I don't believe that Dugtrio reduces the impact of player skill. Even though it traps stuff, a good player can go for a double switch; this can lead to a massive momentum drain for the Dugtrio player.

Everyone is saying that Shed Shell Lele is dumb but I don't believe that it's necessary. Even with no defensive investment on Tapu Lele Dugtrio is forced to come in on a revenge kill or a double switch. This promotes skillful play because a stall player deserves to be in a good position if they can make use of double switches or innovative slow pivots in the teambuilding phase- hardly the skill-free, matchup based game people make it out to be.

tl;dr because it's difficult to actually trap things without sacrificing something, Dugtrio actually increases the amount of skill involved in the game, encouraging even stall players to make risky plays.

1) Fair point, sorry about this, I was convinced it learned either Moonblast or Dazzling Gleam. Forget about Necrozma then, it was not even an important point on my post.

3) It does not clearly mention Dugtrio but it is about Dugtrio. Dugtrio needs EH not to be on field to be effective. If they are, that means Dugtrio has no sash, can’t switch in on anything, can’t use Reversal (then it won’t be able to beat things like Kyurem B, Diggersby, …), can’t use double EQ which is needed to remove most threats (Tapu Lele, …), can’t RK faster threats / loses to priority (Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Quick Attack).
I mentioned how you can set up EH versus stall as one of the easiest way to beat Dugtrio and explained that the most common SR user of the metagame - Landorus-T - just does it fine.

 

[Dakress]

Sorry but you're just wrong. QUAGSIRE DOES NOT PREVENT LANDORUS FROM USING SR. Do you even got my point ?
Having SR on the field versus stall is how you beat it. Landorus-T does not sweep stall teams, it sets up SR so a wallbreaker can win.
Quagsire is NOT an answer to Landorus-T rofl. Landorus-T forces Quagsire to switch in and it uses Stealth Rock... Your point is totally irrelevant and you totally missed the thing... It is not about beating the threat, but about preventing the EH...

By the way:
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

1. Quagsire does not prevent Garchomp from using SR.
2. Chansey does not prevent Gren from using spikes.
3. "Knock Off" ? Loooooool how is that an answer to Marowak ?
5. Mega Sableye NEVER runs taunt ! Come on....
6. Why are you even mentioning Unaware Clefable omg... SR Clefable is Magic Guard + either LO or CM...
7. Necrozma with Moonblast + SR + Thunder Wave can use SR versus the Mega Sableye + Skarmory core.

Dude seriously you didn't understand anything and totally missed the thing. Don't even bother answering if that is to say something like that.

My point was that Quag could wall and potentially cripple Lando-T/Chomp, not that it could prevent them throwing SR. I can see Hazards being only an issue when the opposing team has multiple U-turn/Volt Swich users, easily gaining momentum and forcing you to constantly switch until they finish something weakened.

Also, you need a good reason to use EP Lando these days instead of Rocky Helmet, Leftovers or a Z-Crystal, so I don't think your argument about how it always loses against Quag holds much validity. (I don't deny that it sucks when someone happens to have it)

1 & 2: See above.
3: A-Wak is a complete joke without Thick Club:

252+ Atk Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 96-114 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.6% chance to 3HKO

Said calcs are also assuming the poke has maxed offense, which is a super risky spread imo, since Wak really needs bulk and the speed to tank hits and outspeed an oposing Marowak (unless you're fighting a Trick Room team). And, even if you don't have Knock Off:

0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Granted, you're gonna need to sponge a hit before rendering the poke useless/dead (it does about 75% dmg to Sable IIRC), but I believe that's what recover & wish support is for.

EDIT: Apparently the official analysis suggest A-Marowak to max Atk/Speed now (I wasn't aware of that) so I see why you're so afraid of it. Knock Off still should render it useless, tho.

5. My bad. I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that.
6. Some teams do use Unaware Clefable, tho. And even then, Clef itself has become very uncommon as of late, so it shouldn't be a consistent annoyance.

I'm genuinely curious about something, tho; how many times has a Lando-T destroyed your whole team? I ask because I know you use stall quite a lot, so I assume you have a lot more experience dealing with things like that.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Should of said something sooner but w/e. Better late then never to say my piece about dugtrio.

Dugtrio has been a very solid pokemon in the SM OU metagame due to its solid trapping abilities allowing it to trap multiple breakers and crippling teams in the process. This sort of utility dugtrio has is fantastic for stall teams as they can pick off a troublesome threat to their team such as hoopa-Unbound or allow a Offense team to pick off a heatran for a Zard-x to have a much less harder time finishing the game off. These specific trapping skills are what make dugtrio the fantastic pokemon it is however, this also puts a rather huge constraint on team building as a result. Generally when it comes to trappers outside of magnezone/pursuit trappers this is a very common result. This is where the problem lies with dugtrio. Being able to trap almost every grounded pokemon in the entire metagame bar ghost types makes dealing with dugtrio teams that much harder to deal with.

The main issue with trappers in the past that we removed was how they trapped a large amount of threats. Other trappers that cant trap multiple threats and instead are restricted to what they can trap however don't have this issue due to how they can only trap specific threats. That being said i personally feel this utility dugtrio brings to the table is the main issue with it. Naturally outside of the usual sash set, several other sets are also very effective at trapping and removing threats such as scarf dugtrio being able to revenge kill tapu koko and non scarf pheromosa. You have Groundium-Z which can more effectively remove toxapex and chansey and Choice band (which can also trap gengar and alolawak as they carry pursuit). All of these sets fit on different teams but the purpose remains the same. Trapping is such a controversial subject because you have those that defend dugtrio because of how its trapping utility's help stall deal with scary breakers and then you have those that want dugtrio gone because of how restricting dugtrio is limiting what tools you can use to break stall. Its not as simple as "Maybe you should build your team so that it does not lose to dugtrio stall." A large amount of the good breakers in this tier are grounded and thus are at risk of being removed by dugtrio. One of the reasons SD rockum landot is so good vs dug stall is because its one of the more consistent ways of dealing with dug stall thats not at risk of being trapped.

Dugtrio received a buff to attack from the transition from gen 6 to gen 7 allowing it to pick up Ko's its previous attack stat was unable to pick up. Said buff also allowed dugtrio to run scarf and band once again due to its base 100 attack. Despite this though we would still be in a similar situation even without the buff. The amount of support dugtrio stall gives to stall teams is incredible forcing solid breakers such as tapu lele to run Shed shell over its mind plate set in order to avoid getting trapped and removed by dugtrio. We saw somthing similar in ORAS with S-tag where Manaphy ran shed shell sometimes in order to prevent getting trapped by gothitelle. I can understand wanting to keep dugtrio in this tier because of how it removes key threats but the cost of doing so negatively impacts the metagame by limiting what options builders can use to break stall. Removing dugtrio wont kill stall (not that we should keep a pokemon because of how it helps a play-style as it negatively effects the other play-styles negatively). Ive seen some very interesting ways of people trying to make up for the loss of Dugtrio (trapinch and diglet) but as stated early on in the thread thats not relevant to the current suspect so i digress.

For these reasons im Proban because of the restrictions to building dugtrio causes. Stall can go back to using pursuit to remove stuff, yeah its not as effective or reliable but in the long run dugtrio's presence in the tier effects Every play-style in one way or another negatively (could be wrong on this so feel free to correct me). The reason to ban dugtrio is because of how it negatively impacts and limits team building and ways to break down more fat teams via trapping the threats to the team. Yes there are alternative breakers that dont get trapped but alot of breakers are very potent yet fail to break down the opposing team thanks to the Mole.

calcs

Tectonic rage set:
252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 266-314 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. -2 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 655-772 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (via screech)
Pretty much everything Sash traps but can ohko them with Z-EQ, less reliable due to no sash.

Sash calcs:
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 207-244 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Notable mentions are unaware clef vs screech dugtrio, tyranitar, heatran, jirachi etc but its not worth showing calcs as most of these are 2hko's anyways.

Band calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Clefable: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pretty much everything tectonic rage ko's but cant take out Chansey+more consistent power. BUT can pursuit trap maro and Gengar. loses momentum due to being choiced

Scarf Calcs:
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Do i really need to calc pheromosa vs Ace? Also same Ko's as Sash but less reliable due to no sash and also loses momentum due to being choiced and no screech

 

[Ruine211]

In the game there is a balance between stats and abilities : shedinja, slaking, regigigas, golisopod... are good examples of that.

Dugtrio has close to the best ability in the game, but it has mediocre stats leaving him with pitiful bulk and low offensive presence, its most powerful move being by far stab earthquake.

Meta-wise I am no pro but I see that Dugtrio may trap and kill lele, zeroid, xurkitree, magearna, toxapex and a-muk. Those are interesting targets but the other new competitive mons are not dugtrio-weak : some (koko, phero) outspeed him, others resists/are immune (celesteela) to earthquake. And bulu has an award for ruining its strongest move.

The megas can attack at their megaspeed during the turn they mega evolve, the ghost-types can now escape arena trap and sucker punch has been nerfed. Basically nothing good for dugtrio.

So the only reason I see to ban dugtrio is the attack boost. That +20 points essentially gives dugtrio +25% damage, which is huge because of arena trap. How many more KOs does the boost allow dugtrio to get ? I think this is the true question that need to be answered.

 

[pika pal]

In the game there is a balance between stats and abilities : shedinja, slaking, regigigas, golisopod... are good examples of that.

This part of your statement was very true, and this is what needs to be considered. Dugtrio's Speed is higher than the majority of Stallbreakers (his primary targets on a Stall team), while his attack is usable considering Earthquake and that his targets are attackers/utility mons, rather than the Walls and Tanks these offenses usually get measured against. And the thing about trapping is that on the targets it works for, it completely removes the agency of the opponent. They can't switch out of what the Dugtrio user clearly made to be a losing match up for the trapped mon. The number of offensive OU relevant Ghost types amounts to 2, both of which have to run away from Dugtrio and still risk the rare Pursuit. Honestly, with the decline of Priority and the reduction of the speed crowds, Dugtrio doesn't need Sucker Punch nearly as much anymore.

And the thing that needs to really be acknowledged about the stat boost is that it does nothing except increase the number of things Dugtrio can trap and beat, which was narrow-but-relevant before and is now noticeably (if not significantly) less narrow.

 

[Punchshroom]

In the game there is a balance between stats and abilities : shedinja, slaking, regigigas, golisopod... are good examples of that.

Dugtrio has close to the best ability in the game, but it has mediocre stats leaving him with pitiful bulk and low offensive presence, its most powerful move being by far stab earthquake.

I mean being a 100 Atk/120 Spe Ground-type (resistant to Stealth Rock!) with one of the best non-drawback attacks in the game offers enough perks to make up for its other stats' shortcomings; the raw Speed combined with trapping still sounds like a sweet deal to this day (while offering plenty of offensive presence, idk what you're even on about here), and Dugtrio has just enough moves to play with its targets in a variety of ways so that it's not completely straightforward all the time. Memento alone can dash any attempts you may have of setting up on it and make it harder to take advantage of, and the fact that it can set your helpless Pokemon up for an easy Z-Memento could be even worse for you.

Meta-wise I am no pro but I see that Dugtrio may trap and kill lele, zeroid, xurkitree, magearna, toxapex and a-muk. Those are interesting targets but the other new competitive mons are not dugtrio-weak : some (koko, phero) outspeed him, others resists/are immune (celesteela) to earthquake. And bulu has an award for ruining its strongest move.

Dugtrio is still plenty capable of trapping plenty of existing Pokemon, including but not limited to Mega Metagross, Heatran, Jirachi, Magnezone, Excadrill, Hoopa-U, Tyranitar, Chansey, etc. Dugtrio can also run other items such as Choice Scarf and even possibly Groundium Z to extend the list of possible targets, particularly Scarf Duggy trapping Koko and Pheromosa which you so confidently claimed had little to fear from Dug.

The megas can attack at their megaspeed during the turn they mega evolve, the ghost-types can now escape arena trap and sucker punch has been nerfed. Basically nothing good for dugtrio.

The number of mons that even fill this nearly irrelevant criteria (not many Megas outspeed Dug; not many Ghosts in OU to begin with, and two of them fear Dugtrio anyway) is really small and not worth mentioning, as is the Sucker Punch nerf as Dugtrio honestly doesn't rely on it much, plus its Attack was buffed anyway to negate the nerf.

So the only reason I see to ban dugtrio is the attack boost. That +20 points essentially gives dugtrio +25% damage, which is huge because of arena trap. How many more KOs does the boost allow dugtrio to get ? I think this is the true question that need to be answered.

No, the true question to answer is whether Dugtrio's trapping abilities have become too easy to abuse or become too much for the meta to handle. There are a lot more competent Pokemon, offensive and defensive alike, that can make great use of Dugtrio's support, and the nature of Dugtrio's fast trapping allows it to easily facilitate favorable matchups (of which its options differ depending on its item choice) while limiting counterplay to a more punishing degree due to the greater number of threats waiting to take advantage of Duggy's easy removal of the opponent's crucial components. Basically, it's not so much whether Duggy itself got too strong, but whether the environment around it became too capable of exploiting it.

 

[Tele]

let me link some games where duggy does something on offense to prove a non existent point i have because thats a direct mirror to what you are doing and at the end of the day you have to look at both sides instead of cherry picking the points you like

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706 - sweepage vs hector hard mode for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241552 - snowy vs geemick for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241826 - sabella vs jamvad for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-239674 - p2 vs dragonuser for spl
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241164 - reyscarface for mael for spl

to be honest dugtrio does nothing out of stall and i dont even need to link replays to prove that. its a fact and it cant be denied. i just linked that replay (abr vs p2) because i was linked it and apparently it was a hyped match. i saw abr using dugtrio offense and lose in 11 turns. dugtrio basically did nothing.
spl isnt really indicative of the metagame anyway as it is more of a meme competition than anything (im just going to point out that comfey, shiftry and persian alola were all used last week)

You and many people seem to overestimate Mega Sableye in this metagame.
The double defog stall I have been using from the beginning of the SM metagame has clearly showed Mega Sableye is not mandatory on stall (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-515624213).

Skarmory + Zapdos covers more threats than Mega Sableye + Skarmory / Zapdos, and overall, is more solid and gives better hazard control (not going to argue there, but I could if people want me to).

The only difference is that you don't rely on hazard stacking with double defog (since you end up using Defog no matter the cost), while with Mega Sableye you can actually make use of EH.

lol. i literally created the double defog stall so i probably know better than you how it works. we wouldnt even be having this discussion if i didnt popularize dug stall months ago when everyone thought weavile stall was the only kind of viable stall.

Yo can you guys like stop trying to argue for other suspects and claim the supposed brokenness of other threats, ex. M-Metagross and Tapu Lele in your responses all the time? They're not even on the chopping block, some of these claimed ones shouldn't be to begin with, and you can literally read the OP and realize the emphasis is dugtrios impact in correlation to the stall archetype, the suspect of Dugtrio not "insert what mon you think is broken here", while its impact on other archetypes being a side note.

not sure who you are referring to but we are not trying to argue for other suspects. from what i understand people complain about dugtrio primarily because of what it does on stall. and if people cite the restrictions to building dugtrio causes as the primary reason to dugtrio supposed brokeness then ill have to disagree heavily and explain why. from my perspective sableye-mega has always caused the most restrictions to teambuilding when preparing for stall. you cant status him. you cant knock his item .you cant taunt him. and theres really few offensive leads that can beat it. people went as far as to use skill swap azelf. sableye mega has always been the main trait of stall, not dugtrio. ill put it this way: if you ban dugtrio people will just go back to use weavile (or alola muk) like they were doing before dug became popular. if you ban sab how are u going to replace it considering u autolose to stuff like taunt mew or taunt mandibuzz now? we banned sablenite in oras but noone knows how stall performs without sableye-mega because noone actually played ou without sableye-mega. if dugtrio was the problem since the beginning why didnt we suspect it in oras?

 

[Exiline]

lol. i literally created the double defog stall so i probably know better than you how it works. we wouldnt even be having this discussion if i didnt popularize dug stall months ago when everyone thought weavile stall was the only kind of viable stall.

So ? He brought that argument here for show you the fact that sableye isn't mandatory on stall. And what mega did you use in your ORAS dual defog team ? A fucking sableye that's it.
if you can't read properly don't post thanks.

 

[Ruine211]

Dugtrio was 80/120 before 7G and never got suspected since 3G.
The meta regulates itself. To me the root of the question is the 20 points boost.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Dugtrio was 80/120 before 7G and never got suspected since 3G.
The meta regulates itself. To me the root of the question is the 20 points boost.

The boost is a minor part of the problem with dugtrio but the main issue is the ability arena trap. The actual boost to dugtrios attack just expanded what it could trap. I think you should look at the bigger picture here. The biggest issue with dugtrio is the fantastic utility that comes with its arena trap ability. The attack boost is pretty much irrelevant. Sorry for the short post but not much i can say without being repetitive here.

 

[Sun King]

Dugtrio was 80/120 before 7G and never got suspected since 3G.
The meta regulates itself. To me the root of the question is the 20 points boost.

This entirely overlooks the fact every generation is completely distinct from the others preceding it. SuMo is entirely a different metagame from ORAS, which was entirely different from XY which was different from BW2 (and on and on...).

The root of the problem is absolutely not +20 Atk. The metagame is completely different from ORAS; the main threats are (largely) completely different, so saying the only difference is a 25% increase in power is not true. Any given pokemon's impact on a metagame is dependent on what the metagame looks like.

So basically, Dugtrio's impact boils down to what the meta has made it possible for him to do. Right now, he performs well on Stall because a lot of the offensive meta is really frail, and Stall is good at getting Dugtrio in safely, so Duggy can hit things pretty hard. Does the attack boost help it this gen? Absolutely, yes, but it is most certainly not the sole reason why it's effective now and under question.

e: sorta ninja'd but I expanded on the point above

 

[I like pink mons]

lol. i literally created the double defog stall so i probably know better than you how it works. we wouldnt even be having this discussion if i didnt popularize dug stall months ago when everyone thought weavile stall was the only kind of viable stall.

You sound so pretentious...
People didn't need you to use double defog lol... Double defog is simply a way of controling hazards, just like Mega Sableye is.
Such a general concept is never "created" by someone, many players often come up with similar ideas. It's like the idea of using trapers on stall; nobody ever created this, it is a general strategy.
Mega Sableye was better in ORAS because it actually countered threats like Mega Medicham; now it is not mandatory and if you have a counter argument just bring it here since you seem to "know it better than me" (and better than everyone I guess ?).

People thought Weavile stall was the only kind of viable stall ? Oh god.. What about branflakes' wonder trio ? If you want me to take you seriously, at least gives pertinent facts since you post zero argument.

 

[JTD783]

Tele

I disagree with your statement:

to be honest dugtrio does nothing out of stall and i dont even need to link replays to prove that. its a fact and it cant be denied.

For example, Sweepage vs Hector Hard Mode serves as a prime example of how Dugtrio "does something" outside of stall. Sweepage uses a slow U-Turn from rocks Rachi to get his Scarf Dugtrio in safely, then clicks Stone Edge against the now-trapped Volcarona (which has a QD up) and KOs it. Had Metagross not been carrying Pursuit, Dugtrio would have came back later and potentially trapped Metagross or a weakened Fini. Regardless, Sweepage prevents Hector's Volcarona from sweeping and wins with a Volcarona sweep of his own.

I realize that you "only clicked on one of the battles" listed. Honestly, that's not a smart thing to say when you're trying to pick apart someone else's argument. The majority of said replays obviously show Dugtrio's capability on offense. I agree that giving Dugtrio the axe won't solve all of the issues, as the amount of threats in this meta is the greatest issue and will not be resolved unless we ban more mons or make a new tier, or something along those lines.

To reiterate, everyone and their mother knows that Dugtrio is most reliable when used on stall, but stating that Dugtrio is not viable outside of stall is blatantly false.

Moving on...

I am still in the progress of earning reqs and should I earn them, I'll likely vote Ban. Here's why:

Ban:

• large constraint on teambuilding
• lack of opportunity cost (best trapper in OU)
• easily abused by prominent threats
• quasi-invalidation of otherwise capable stall/balance breakers
• skill is unnecessary if brought in safely

No Ban:

• not overcentralizing despite being very influential
• promotes riskier play for stall users
• abused by small group of meta threats
• skill is necessary if not brought in safely

The points above are my main considerations. I am only tentatively in favor of Ban, but I do believe that Dugtrio's presence in OU is more negative than positive.

 

[undisputed]

Just achieved reqs, and as of now, I'll be voting No Ban.

At the start of the test, I thought I'd vote ban but since changed my mind. Dugtrio is below average on offense and no more broken than any other generation. There is no context outside of SM OU stall that Dugtrio can be considered "broken" or whatever you want to call it, unless we want to retroactively say Dugtrio is broken in every previous generation too. I could potentially see myself getting behind a retroactive Dugtrio ban, but banning it in SM OU and not previous generations is hypocritical.

The real reason behind this test is stall. Dugtrio is stall's best 6th mon. However, make no mistake, stall is still excellent even without Dugtrio. Stall is a real problem and needs to be dealt with appropriately by the council. I won't go on about stall in this thread since it's "off topic."

In my eyes, anyone who wants to ban Dugtrio needs to:

1) rationalize, outside of stall, a reason that Dugtrio is broken particularly in SM OU and not in previous generations. 20 extra base attack points isn't compelling.

OR

2) be willing to say that Dugtrio is broken and should be banned throughout Pokemon

Since option 2 isn't on the table, I can't vote "Ban" in good conscience.

 

[ABR]

Just achieved reqs, and as of now, I'll be voting No Ban.

At the start of the test, I thought I'd vote ban but since changed my mind. Dugtrio is below average on offense and no more broken than any other generation. There is no context outside of SM OU stall that Dugtrio can be considered "broken" or whatever you want to call it, unless we want to retroactively say Dugtrio is broken in every previous generation too. I could potentially see myself getting behind a retroactive Dugtrio ban, but banning it in SM OU and not previous generations is hypocritical.

The real reason behind this test is stall. Dugtrio is stall's best 6th mon. However, make no mistake, stall is still excellent even without Dugtrio. Stall is a real problem and needs to be dealt with appropriately by the council. I won't go on about stall in this thread since it's "off topic."

In my eyes, anyone who wants to ban Dugtrio needs to:

1) rationalize, outside of stall, a reason that Dugtrio is broken particularly in SM OU and not in previous generations. 20 extra base attack points isn't compelling.

OR

2) be willing to say that Dugtrio is broken and should be banned throughout Pokemon

Since option 2 isn't on the table, I can't vote "Ban" in good conscience.

Directly comparing to old generations doesn't always work out that well, because all generations have very different metagames. Something like Lando-I was fine during XY and then got banned in ORAS, without any moveset or stat changes. Gothitelle was seen very rarely in BW OU, but was banned by ~90% majority in ORAS. Pokemon may not change, but the metagames around them do. Simply saying "pokemon x wasn't broken in ADV, and did not change at all or very much, so it can't be broken in SM" is using very flawed logic.

The reason why many people like myself see Dugtrio as problematic is that its trapping ability, given the rest of the metagame, is broken or overwhelming. The main difference between older generations and SM is the overall power creep and abundance of threats. Given the fact that there are more threats to consider, there's a bit less freedom in simply having less grounded pokemon or using P2 like in ADV. While the rest of the metagame is more restricting, and there's a lot more to worry about, the external factor of Dugtrio, or this kind of mass trapping as a whole (Shadow Tag) doesn't really fit in nicely. Additionally, newer generations provide certain support that Dugtrio didn't have in the past, namely Sableye and Defog, enabling focus sash sets to flourish.

I don't mean this to just you directly, but in general older generations shouldn't really be brought up in modern gen suspect tests, as it prevents us from seeing an accurate and current picture of the metagame we are trying to improve.

 

[Marzbar]

I just don't understand the argument that Dugtrio needs to be banned because it imposes restrictions to team building. You can make that argument for every major OU threat. In fact you could make a stronger argument for Stealth Rock restricting team building and Smogon refuses to touch that.

A well balanced team should have an answer to Dugtrio just as it should to Metagross and Pheromosa and Lele etc etc.

This is just people hating on stall as usual. NO BAN!

 

[Xayah]

I just don't understand the argument that Dugtrio needs to be banned because it imposes restrictions to team building. You can make that argument for every major OU threat. In fact you could make a stronger argument for Stealth Rock restricting team building and Smogon refuses to touch that.

A well balanced team should have an answer to Dugtrio just as it should to Metagross and Pheromosa and Lele etc etc.

This is just people hating on stall as usual. NO BAN!

I am not going for reqs, wouldn't be getting it anyway, and haven't been playing a whole lot of SM OU, but there is something to be said here.

When your team is weak to Mega Metagross, you use Mega Scizor to switch into it.
When your team is weak to Tapu Lele, you use Celesteela to switch into it.
When your team is weak to Pheromosa, you use Toxapex to switch into it.
When your team is weak to Dugtrio, you can't use something to switch into it because of its ability, so you have to take off mons to deal with it.

Disclaimer: the examples I gave are just that, examples. They obviously don't work on every team and don't beat every variant, but they are examples.

Obviously there are Pokemon that can take advantage of Dugtrio like Landorus-T, but you can't just be like 'I'll use Landorus-T on my team and my Heatran is safe from Dugtrio', simply because of the nature of Arena Trap. As such, no matter what support you give a Heatran, or any other mon that can be trapped by Dugtrio, it's still a problem for it. That's a completely different way of preparing, so you can't compare it to other threats like MegaGross, Lele, or Phero.

I have no opinion on the suspect and it's not gonna matter anyway, but I wanted to make this clear.

 

[Tace]

My personal opinion is that dugtrio isn't broken. I think arena trap is the problem. In Oras we banned Shadow tag for the reason of trapping the counters to stall. Dugtrio does pretty much the same thing. Dugtrio isn't even busted on stall because diglett and tranpich can do the same thing on stall with a focus sash. The thing dugtrio has over these mons is it's speed. I personally say No Ban if i get reqs, but i think arena trap is the problem. ps can we stop putting game limits on getting reqs, it's annyoing