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Announcement SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by blunder, Feb 9, 2017.

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  1. blunder

    blunder the bobby fischer of pokemon
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    YEA DAT WAY


    Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Dugtrio.

    Dugtrio has been claimed to be the progenitor of the stall craze due to its incredible utility in trapping, and has thus led to further questioning of the role it plays in the metagame. In order to address a direct problem relating to the outcry against stall, we have decided due to popular consensus in the council and in the community, to suspect test Dugtrio.

    Dugtrio itself possesses one of the greatest aids to defensive teams: the ability to trap would be stallbreakers and threats to defensive cores. By utilizing it's recent attack buff along with the wide amount of Pokemon it is able to neutralize, Dugtrio has become a favorite pick among defensive builds. With the ability Arena Trap, Dugtrio gains the ability to consistently pressure the opponent through the threat of completely throwing the momentum of the game by eliminating a key counter, or breaker, that threatens the team otherwise.

    While at the start of generation seven stall did not see much play, slowly the community began to realize just how powerful a tool Dugtrio possessed in its ability. Dugtrio has the ability to pick apart teams and destroy otherwise solid measures against defensive builds, and is viewed by some to be a ridiculously centralizing force which pushes the need for niche counters onto the average builder. Outside of it's role as a utility 'mon for stall, Dugtrio can also function on more balanced teams which need an efficient way to eliminate select counters. Dugtrio can turn otherwise relatively equal matchups on their head by eliminating specific counters, destroying typical team structures. Dugtrio also functions as a revenge killer to set-up sweepers with its now increasingly common Choice Scarf set, which allows for the assured kill of certain sweepers through Arena Trap.

    Due to the council's general belief that it is not Arena Trap that is intrinsically broken, but the user (Dugtrio), we have decided to exclusively suspect test this Pokemon.

    For this round we are going to have two alternative ways to qualify for voting:
    1. Laddering: you will need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 (or more) in a /!\ game limit of 70 games /!\ on the OU Suspect Test Ladder (in which Dugtrio is banned), that will be implemented very soon.
    2. Suspect Tours: check McMeghan's thread.

    The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on February 23rd.

    Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact blunder, CrashinBoomBang, Finchinator, M Dragon, PDC, and/or TDK through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

    Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!

    /!\Rules for posting in this thread/!\
    • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
    • No discussion on other potential suspects;
    • No discussion on the suspect process;
    • You are required to make respectful posts;
    • You are required to read this thread before posting.

    Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

    /!\ NOTICE /!\ OU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. If you have any further questions feel free to shoot TDK a PM.

    Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you will need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

    N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

    (Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

    Here are some sample values:
    CODE:
    GXE N 100 30 90 41 85 52 80 70 75 112 70 324

    Tagging The Immortal so that this can be implemented on PS - thank you!

    YEAH DAT WAY
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2017
    0Nl, Tele, njnp and 171 others like this.
  2. PDC

    PDC gain again what they want to steal
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  3. TDK

    TDK
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    [​IMG] Live Suspect Tournaments [​IMG]

    Date: Saturday, February 18th
    Time: 4 PM EST (-5)
    Host: Prague Kick
    Winner: Aurious
    Gained Reqs: Aurious, cdumas, Tele

    Date: Sunday, February 19th
    Time: 2 PM EST (-5)
    Host: TDK
    Winner: Empo
    Gained Reqs: Empo and Korby

    Both suspect tournaments will adopt the suspect ladder where Dugtrio is banned.

    - 64 man tournament, only the Top 2 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 96 man tournament, only the Top 3 (Finals) players get reqs.
    - 128 man tournament, only the Top 4 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 192 man tournament, only the Top 6 (Semi-Finals) players get reqs.
    - 256 man tournament, only the Top 8 (Quarter-Finals) players get reqs.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  4. KratosMana

    KratosMana
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    i wanna bring up diglett.

    Diglett fills up the same role duggy did. It still stops the common stall headaches(for example things like tran, hoopa and bandtar) without much of a prob. I laddered with it earlier this morning to see if my suspicion was correct and it was definetly fine at doing it's job. Only issue was rock head marowak, who
    would be a pain to the standard stall regardless. Also jimmy turtwig and a couple other friends laddered with the dig(shoutout joey's twitter) and they saw it actually is useful as well. I know diglett sounds like a meme but u hav to try it out before bashing, here's a few replays for now ill try to get more l8r

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531415248
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531418176
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531386371
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531890653

    Now im not saying diglett has the same effectiveness as dugtrio. And obviously diglett isn't even that great(and neither is dugtrio). It's speed tier is trash so at best you speedtie tapu lele/kyub(runnin ada anyway cuz certain ohko on tran+2ko on hoopa) and the up-and-coming gardevoir, and it obviously has mediocre attack stat(although it doesn't exactly need it to be better cuz u can cripple stuff with toxic anyway). It does dugtrio's job, just worse. I just think the real problem here is Arena Trap and not dug itself. Arena trap is what makes dug such a great asset to stall, and without it, it'd just fall to nu or pu or w/e. Diglett still shares the same "uncompetitive nature" dugtrio does, being it as good as duggy or not. It feels like the same situation for when shadow tag was suspect tested(http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-5-run-the-jewels.3556762/). Gothorita did the same thing gothitelle did, just not as great. Shadow Tag was suspect tested as a whole, and the same should be done with arena trap imo.

    Anyway don't rly have an opinion for dug/arena trap itself for now, just thought that had to be brought up.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
    Lacus Clyne, ict, Flambo and 79 others like this.
  5. FLCL

    FLCL
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  6. Ghant312

    Ghant312

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    Trapinch also does the same thing as Dugtrio. It hits harder, because it can run Adamant, and is bulkier because it doesn't benefit from running Speed EVs. With Eviolite, it can 80% of the time avoid the 2HKO from Toxapex and 2HKO it back.
    252+ Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 132-156 (44.8 - 53%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO
    Either way, I see Trapinch being a better alternative to Diglett, if you surround it with faster Pokemon.
    FloPe, avocado, EnemyJurist and 5 others like this.
  7. JTD783

    JTD783

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    Trapinch @ Eviolite
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 204 HP/252 Atk/52 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    -Earthquake
    -Superpower
    -Crunch*
    -Toxic*

    *Suggested options but idk if something else is better

    Less HP and more SpD lets Trap live 2 Scalds (sin burn) guaranteed. Loss in physical bulk doesn't cause significant problems from what I can tell. Eviolite lets it take 1 hit from Scarf Hoopa-U from full but other Hoopa sets OHKO it.

    0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 204 HP / 52 SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 116-140 (41.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 316-374 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -1 252+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 212-250 (33 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Chansey is faster and can stall out Superpower due to drops, but still, it hits fairly hard.

    Alternatively,

    252+ Atk Trapinch All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 502-592 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Trapinch All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 254-300 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Z Superpower is strong af. Trade off is that Pex can 2HKO easily, so Trap has to live 1 scald, not get burned, then have Pex be at under 64% to have a chance to KO.

    I firmly believe Arena Trap is the real problem. When players can legitimately considering running niche trash like Diglett and Trapinch just because Arena Trap is so good, it is clearly an unhealthy and overcentralizing mechanic. Like others have said, players hyped Gothorita when it seemed that Gothitelle could be banned since it filled a similar niche for abusing a broken mechanic, despite being shit otherwise. It is different (and far more problematic) than other trapping options such as Magnet Pull, which only annoys steels, and Pursuit, which can be circumvented to an extent through skilled play. Dugtrio and other Arena Trap users are why people seriously consider Shed Shell on Lele, Tran, etc., and make solid wallbreakers such as Kyurem-Black, Hoopa-U, Z Kartana, Z Manaphy, and BandTar unable to do their jobs. This constraint on the meta is remniscent of Aegislash's role in making EQ mandatory coverage on many top threats, as well as invalidating the use of Starmie, Mega Medi, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Hera in XY OU. Arena Trap as a whole is very risk-free and skill-less for stall teams and even some offense teams and is too easily abused; it should be banned.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  8. Rotten Seagull

    Rotten Seagull

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    I have been thinking about Dugtrio's place in the meta for some time. I'll get to the point: I do not think Dugtrio itself is the problem; in fact, arena trap is why it is even used at all. Even with the buff Dugtrio stat-wise is unimpressive, has few resistances and only one STAB type, and has as movepool so barren that screech is slashed in the strategy pokedex. Screech.

    Dugtrio is nothing without Arena Trap. Remove Dugtrio, and the next arena trapper will take its place.

    I am an avid stall player. Even though I enjoy Dugtrio's convenience factor, I do not think arena trap is healthy at all for the metagame. Dugtrio, unlike Magnezone, can trap anything and eliminate any target. Magnezone's specificity can be played around. On the other hand, if something is sufficiently weakened and slower than Dugtrio (and isn't a ghost), it will die. Arena Trap is exactly the same as Shadow Tag, which was the cause for a lot of drama over Gothitelle in the past.

    TLDR Do not ban Dugtrio, ban Arena Trap.
    Rain., Flambo, -Snow and 14 others like this.
  9. Colonel M

    Colonel M Like a Pope
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    Well I can't overpower that meme from FLCL.

    As expected the Suspect ladder has started to still sprout another mole outside of Dugtrio to attempt to fill the niche that it had. It seems Diglett has had small success for some players - this is partly due to being a lighter inferior version of its evolved self. 95 base Speed isn't necessarily bad, but it suddenly puts Diglett in dangerous 50/50s with Tapu Lele while being forced to consider Adamant to secure KOes. There's also being slower than Pokemon such as Mega Metagross amongst other threats that Dugtrio was much faster than before (+0 Zard X, as an example). That's a huge problem for Diglett, but it does appear that some ladder players have gotten away with it.

    The one thing that surprised me the most so far with the Suspect - the backlash. I think it's because people look at Dugtrio in a vacuum and assume that it's not a broken Pokemon due to its individual issues. It's frail and 100 base Attack isn't what it used to be. 120 base Speed is rather quick, but it's still slower than threats such as Greninja and Pheromosa. Allow this old timer to tell the story of Wobbuffet - one of the biggest mistakes to unban from the 4th Generation. Without going too much into detail of the story two Pokemon were released from Ubers into OU - one is well-known as Deoxys-S. Deoxys-S ran rampant with Spikes sets while having competent offensive / cleaner sets. The oddball, though, was Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet was a Pokemon that received very little use within the OU tier while it was allowed. Though some argue this may be due to a "hidden agreement", the fact of the matter was Wobbuffet ran rampant in the tier. Its support was unrivaled by any Pokemon since it trapped critical Pokemon such as Skarmory and used them as "Tickle-fodder" to have Choice Band Tyranitar clean up. Eventually, in spite of little usage, Wobbuffet was banned.

    So people will ask, naturally, why I bring up Wobbuffet for Dugtrio. Wobbuffet as an individual Pokemon isn't necessarily the most broken Pokemon. After all - it is nothing more but a punching back in the current generation and the physical / special split has made using Counter / Mirror Coat a little more awkward (on top of the immunities). Ultimately, Wobbuffet created a major problem in the Support aspect - of course largely thanks to Shadow Tag. This is exactly where Dugtrio falls into line - individually it isn't a broken Pokemon, but what it provides to teams, specifically stall, is something that screams very susceptible to being uncompetitive, or broken, by the Support Clause.

    I feel this is what a lot of newer players and those inexperienced have a hard time understanding. What makes Pokemon like Dugtrio very threatening is that it shuts out the majority of relevant stallbreakers - leaving teams with either very prediction-reliant Pokemon (Tapu Bulu, Kartana) or Pokemon that have almost 0 niche outside of stallbreaking (Togekiss, NP Shed Shell Hoopa-U). The rarest of exceptions that work so far is Modest Shed Shell Tapu Lele - a set that has worked out, but definitely inferior in a way outside of the stall environment since it enjoys having access to Z Moves or Twistedspoon to bolster through other threats. Furthermore, the relevance of Mega Sableye does mean that if Shed Shell is Knocked Off it leaves Tapu Lele trapped by Dugtrio.

    It's true that stall has benefited a lot from ORAS with the introduction of Mega Sableye, a Pokemon that makes laying entry hazards difficult on top of having access to Defog users such as Skarmory and Zapdos. What's worse is the addition of Toxapex, a Pokemon that is quite passive but is an impenetrable fortress to some teams. Stall is very strong and it shows with some of the SPL replays that we've seen. Such examples are some of reyscarface's first two weeks of using stall against his opponents with the combination of Mega Sableye / Skarmory / Chansey / Toxapex / Clefable / Dugtrio - a very frightening core that is very difficult to dismantle without playing ahead of the opponent or packing the right teammates. Dugtrio has also helped gravitate the success for rather niche stall teams such as Shedinja Stall as well - a stall core that otherwise is very weak and flawed since Shedinja is still vulnerable to many things that are common in OU.

    I feel, for once, compelled to participate in the Suspect Ladder. Previously when it came to suspect threads I felt that the community drove the right direction towards bans and do not bans. I stand that, for the most part, the OU community has done a good job of controlling most of the problematic children within OU since Smogon started this project in Gen 4. Still, the people who have this sudden urge to say that Dugtrio isn't broken by the virtue of:

    - players too lazy to adapt
    - players not having enough skill
    - players not using the right breakers

    etc are what are my motivations to go through this ladder and actually attempt to grab the requirements. Whether I officially do it or not for once I don't know, but I feel very compelled to do so for the sake of the end goal of finding a way to ban Arena Trap from the OU tier. Having witnessed some SPL matches made me realize how terrifying something like this is to face, and it still is a struggle sometimes when the stall player knows what they're doing against you.

    tl;dr - provided that I go through with laddering, I will be seeking out to remove Dugtrio, or Arena Trap, from OU.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    Please refrain from discussing the following Pokemon in this thread: Trapinch. It is not a reason for or against banning the ability Arena Trap. The OU Council will discuss Arena Trap vs Dugtrio in the near future. Until then, please stay on the intended topic of this thread!
  11. Lazyboy0337

    Lazyboy0337

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    I understand the many reasons that people want Dugtrio gone and how he can dismantle teams and open weaknesses, but didn't the M-Sableye suspect and all the discussion about M-Sableye+Dugtrio from ORAS show that M-Sableye is the true backbone of the core? The meta has changed and +20 attack is a very nice buff, but wouldn't it almost be more worthwhile to consider M-Sableye for a suspect first due to how strong it holds up the stall teams that Dugtrio accels in?
  12. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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    First and foremost, this is not the place to discuss full-on alternatives; I said in the very last post to stay on-topic and it'd very much be appreciated if that direction was followed in subsequent posts.

    Regardless, the Mega Sableye suspect and ban last generation was highly controversial (i.e: almost everyone in council was opposed to it and a lot of people that were in favor of it being banned didn't even deem it broken, but just wanted it gone out of sheer convenience of the most common archetype of stall being ruined). Combine this with the fact that this is a whole new metagame that has a bit of a power creep when compared to ORAS OU and it means that stallbreaking is put more in the hands of strong breakers themselves as opposed to some finesse play (i.e: hazards / taunt -- which both very much still exist and are common, but don't need to do as much of the work as beforehand) that can be kept in check my Mega Sableye and it seems fairly clear that the more problematic of the two, currently, is Dugtrio as it traps many prominent breakers among other things. Finally, there is also some controversy surrounding trapping as a whole right now, as reflected upon above and in an old Policy Review thread, and that obviously pertains only to Dugtrio, not Mega Sableye whatsoever.
  13. elodin

    elodin formerly papai noel
    is a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

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    ah... the dugtrio suspect...

    it honestly feels like this is one of the most unfair suspects in the history of smogon because what we're seeing here is a result of something that started happening in xy: users are now considering stall a skilless strategy and are refusing to adapt to it. i remember when using stall was considered much harder than using "brainless hyper offensive" teams in which your gameplan was pretty much telegraphed from team preview. ever since xy came in, however, we've seen people constantly complaining about stall matchups and trying to weaken it as a whole with suspect tests by claiming it's a broken and brainless playstyle that can only be defeated by using specific pokémon that are terrible against everything else in the metagame. this is not true.

    you might be thinking "but this is not a suspect against stall! dugtrio is broken regardless of it, because its ability makes it broken! it's used in hyper offensive teams too!". this is also not true. the only reason why dugtrio is being suspected over threats like mega metagross and greninja (both of which pokémon that have higher usage in spl and on the ladder) is because stall can be a very frustrating playstyle to deal with when your team isn't prepared to face it. i guess you could argue that in smogon history we have seen similar things happening in which we ban playstyles for deciding matches based on team matchup, such as the drought + chlorophyll ban, but this is not the correct way to evaluate if a threat is broken or not in the metagame.

    you could also argue that dugtrio restricts teambuilding as a whole since it forces you to use shed shell and some specific pokémon ir order to have a chance against stall, which i also disagree with. this claim might be true, but teambuilding in sm is already super limited due to threats like mega metagross and greninja (again), so why are we putting dugtrio above them in terms of metagame restraints?

    i have been spamming stall on the ladder and in friendly matches and i can 100% guarantee you it's not a brainless playstyle. you have to adapt so much throughout a match when you're dealing with threats like marowak, tapu bulu, kartana etc. there are also so many ways to apply pressure on stall teams with good plays and then later on achieve a successful sweep with threats such as volcarona, gyarados, metagross etc. it really isn't easy to play unless you have a good matchup. playing around hoopa and tapu lele is hard even when you have dugtrio on your team. of course you can trap them, but if played correctly they can still create holes which good players can definitely explore. i might not be the best example here since i am not one of the most experienced stall players, but i am quite confident that others agree with me in this.

    i am also quite confident when i say that if dugtrio is banned we're going to see another suspect sooner or later against mega sableye. there are always going to be ways of putting threats such as hoopa and tapu lele in check (weavile is a pretty good example) and although they're definitely not as good as dugtrio, most people who want it banned will continue to get destroyed by stall because they'll refuse to adapt. if you take a look at some actually good teams you'll realize they always have ways of playing around stall. it might require a lot of skill and patience, but that doesn't mean it's uncompetitive.

    if i have the time to go through the laddering i will definitely vote to keep dugtrio in ou. at least for now, dugtrio seems to me like a really effective way of taking out pokémon that stand in the way of your win conditions in both offensive and defensive teams. i've seen some very good teams with dugtrio and what it does is certainly healthy for the metagame when it comes to adding skill to a match. most of the time what dugtrio is supposed to do is quite obvious, but when you and your opponent are put in a position to analyze what pokémon are worth risking and what plays are worth being made in order to elevate your chances of winning... i personally think that adds a lot of skill to the game.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
    Jaajgko, Zmovesrool, Rain. and 37 others like this.
  14. nameless90

    nameless90

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    I think that the problem is Arena Trap equipped onto Dugtrio's Atk and Spe stat, so I think that Dugtrio is the monster that should be banned. I think that others available Arena Trap users are not a problem for the OU environment.

    Dugtrio has 120 base Spe, which is still a great Spe tier despite the newfound threats in the metagame that are potentially are more broken than Dugtrio itself.
    At the beginning of this generation Dugtrio gained +20 onto its Atk, thus reaching 100, which is more than enough to put Dugtrio over the limit.
    In the last generation Dugtrio was torn between running an Adamant nature to achieve some KOs and a Jolly nature in order to outspeed as many threats as possible (considering the low bulk Dugtrio has). Now, Dugtrio can run both a Jolly nature AND still achieve the KOs needed.

    I'd like to show you these calcs:

    XY Dugtrio (with 80 base Atk) + Adamant nature +252 EVs reaches 284 Atk points
    SuMo Dugtrio (with 100 base Atk) + Jolly nature +252 EVs reaches 299 Atk points ===> Dugtrio can make great use of a higher Atk coming from a much higher Spe (thanks to the Jolly nature), which is really good with such poor defenses.

    You still have to be precise with Dugtrio's inability to take hits i.e. from priority, but it is still enough to wear down 1-2 monsters per match to the point the opponent can't use them properly anymore.

    There is little counterplay possible to Arena Trap Dugtrio because you need:
    (1) to waste an item to use Shed Shell;
    (2) to have priority in a generation with Tapu Lele around, but priority users are quite exploitable and Sucker Punch on Dugtrio is still a thing despite the nerf;
    (3) higher Spe stat to wear down Dugtrio as much as possible before the opposite happens.


    In my opinion, a simple ban on Dugtrio is enough.
    GodofCyrus likes this.
  15. mertyville

    mertyville

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    It is not really hard to see this suspect happening. With the buff of 20+ to its attack and the addition of a insane amount of grounded threats and top tier threats with utility moves like U-Turn or Parting Shot to safely bring in Duggy, getting a kill with this mole has been a much easier.
    To be honest, Focus Sash is no longer even that relevant in my opinion. You can even just slap a Darkium Z on it can turn a certain trapped mon into set up fodder for your Mega Gyarados or Mega Charizard X.

    Dugtrio definitively deserves the ban but I am not entirely sure on Area Trap itself.
    Damian_Grey likes this.
  16. nofakethekairi78

    nofakethekairi78

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    Im surprised by this suspect test. Dugtrio has an impact on the metagame: it can trap specific targets like stallbreakers/wallbreakers to win easier(with for example a stall team).
    Even without bulk, it has 100 atk and 120 speed.
    It can trap tyranitar;tapu lele;hoopa unbound;.....
    The problem with trapping is: as long as your opponent has dugtrio, you cant use your stallbreaker/wallbreaker(unless you have Shed Shell, but its mehh), and there is no way to deal with it...
    Once dugtrio trapped key threats, stall becomes unmanageable because you lost your mon which was supposed to threat stall.
    I ignore the potential consequences of its bann. But, since dugtrio's trap is stupid and make stallbreakers/wallbreakers bad, it deserves a bann.
    Damian_Grey likes this.
  17. Creator of Chaos

    Creator of Chaos

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    While I'm on the record as not supporting a ban on trapping in previous Gens I think the time has come for generic trapping (Arena Trap/S-tag) to leave. Lets face it as pokemon evolves it get's harder and harder to find counter play and checks to the ever growing number of threats this game has. This by by virtue means trapping gets more powerful as your 6 slots get further limited and strained. If you lose your one stall breaker vs stall, your one check to baton pass that can only come in after you sack something, Your sole revenge killer vs lele hyper offense its basically game over. Dugtrio ends games once it eliminates your sole check to a particular playstyle and due to arena traps nature has little in the way of true counter play while limiting the oppenents. That's what Generic trapping does in the modern game, Its restrictive on team building and uncompetive due to its limitation of counter play. Its not simply about stall as much as I hate it, Its the ability to play pokemon.

    In older gens like 3, 4 and 5 the pool of mons was small enough that trapping wasn't a death knell and in ORAS we could always fall back on Clefable as a blanket check if your main answer fell. Now tho in the era of Z-moves, the expanded pools of pokemon and the downfall of clef I can say with near certainty the days of universal checks are over and as time goes on It'll only get harder to cover your weakness's. We need all 6 slots to give us plenty of time to allow for counter play regardless of playstyle and Dugtrio hinders this just by existing in the modern game.

    Its Gen 7 people and the game has changed while I would prefer arena trap to be banned all-together I can settle for Dugtrio since Most of its other users are crap. If I make reqs I'm voting ban
  18. TheMohZone

    TheMohZone

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    So this is what Dugtrio does for offence, it removes threats that stop your Sweep. On STALL, Duggys even better, removing threats that could break your core meaning the other 5 mons you can just stall out with ease. Hoopa was banned last gen for how it dismantled Stall, but this gen not so much cause the buffed Dugtrio just comes in and kills it. Heatran and Volcanion you'd think would get better at their breaking job, or Kyube, from last gen, with Z Moves giving them access to ridiculously strong attacks that bust cores (And Heatran being able to trap with Magma Storm itself) but Dugtrio doesn't give a shit about that, removing them before they can do their job 90% of the time. and that o so threatening DD Sweeper that comes in and tries to set up on Stall? So long as Duggys around, if they aren't flying type, they can't set up for fear of being trapped and killed and then oh, theres your win condition gone in a gen where they could actually muscle past Clef with all the nerfs it got (Just the Para nerf actually, but its huge).

    In previous gens, however, Dugtrio was saved from the hammer by being essentially a 1 for 1 trade. It kills something but dies itself to whatever comes in next. Of course in time we got the DugSab core that proved that didn't matter but...this gen its better again, with that extra 20 Attack turning 2HKOs into OHKOs meaning that Duggy has a much higher chance of doing its job and then some, turning it into a very viable Stealth Rocker among other things. Its sets adapted to carrying Screech to beat Chansey if you needed it for that. The ammount of Utility Duggy as a whole provides to nearly any team archtype in the game is frightening. and its all down to Arena Trap

    Personally, i'd ban Trapping Abilities as a whole, but thats not what the OU Council has deemed to be the problem, so i won't comment on that beyond it (Diglet is gonna be the best meme set around for a while though i can feel it) but Dugtrio is...possibly the best Trapper in the game right now, outside Mega Gengar. its blistering speed and now actually painful attack make it superior to Gothitelle who had its ability stripped from it and, if we are going to let Diglet and Trapinch play for a while longer, i'd say get Rid of Dugtrio now. We can always ban Arena Trap and bring Dugtrio back later if Diglet and Trapinch do turn out to be problematic in the same way. Its not even a move that would kill stall, it would just allow teams to carry consistent outs to it if played well and we can see just how much havok Kyube/Hoopa/Volcanion and other similar breakers Duggys keeping in check can wreak.
    BAN
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  19. michaeloche

    michaeloche

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    Not sure how memes contribute to the suspect discussion, but whatever. (edit: said memes have now been deleted, don't hurt me)

    Anyway, when you see a Dugtrio in team preview, you will have to work around it, as one false move could spell the end for your wincon, or remove a roadblock for your opponent's wincon. This is a bit like the Shadow Tag suspect we had back in ORAS, where you can't really counter it per se because you can't switch out (unless you're a ghost or not grounded, but I digress). What sets Dugtrio apart from the likes of Gothitelle or Wobbuffet is that it can actually kill something right off the bat, as a STAB Earthquake off 100 base Attack isn't exactly weak and its coverage is solid as well. But that alone is not why we're talking about it here. It's true that Dugtrio has the bulk of a wet paper bag, but that can be worked around by someone with even a rudimentary knowledge of the game (bring it in on an electric move, slow voltturn, etc.), and a well timed switch (again, not that difficult) can give the Dugtrio player what they want. Dugtrio is easily able to get rid of common counters to notable wincons (Heatran for non-EQ Zard-X and non-HP Ground Volcarona, Toxapex for something like QD Pheromosa, etc.), and it's also gained notoriety of late for trapping and removing mons that threaten stall teams (aka Duggy stall). It's basically giving you a free 6v5 no matter what, assuming you play it correctly, therefore I think it needs to go.

    tl;dr ban Dugtrio

    Side note, don't use Diglett or Trapinch unless you're playing LC.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
    Force Majeure likes this.
  20. ABR

    ABR
    is a Tiering Contributorwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

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    I agree with KratosMana that this test should be Arena Trap as a whole. If you look at the reasoning for the Shadow Tag ban then it pretty much applies here as well and we're not really losing anything by banning Diglett / Trapinch (Diglett still does some unhealthy things). I'm not sure how feasible that change is right now or if it's even necessary so it's not really a huge deal either way.

    As for Dugtrio itself, it needs to be banned. It makes gameplay less skillful, adds to matchup issues, and is overall too burdensome to fully account for / counter.

    Much like Gothitelle, Dugtrio's trapping ability is heavily problematic given the metagame it exists in. The reason why Dugtrio could exist in older generations was due to the limited pool of pokemon that left some room for adequate preparation. If you look at a tier like ADV OU, Dugtrio is definitely more powerful there than it is now. It traps a very large portion of the metagame, and even serves as a useful (needed) check to something like Tyranitar. Aside from raw momentum you gain after a Choice Band mon gets a kill, there are viable pokemon like P2 that can trap Dugtrio in return if you have multiple pokemon weak to it. One could say that this is overcentralization, and it is to some degree, but all older gens are more centralized, but they can afford to be. There are way less pokemon to account for that some centralizing forces are not overbearing in teambuilding.

    On the contrary, Dugtrio is too burdensome to account for in SM OU. There are a plethora of threats, most / all of which can be generally accounted for. We already have a limited number of pokemon to deal with these threats, and Dugtrio sort of disturbs the normal countermeasures. When you're preparing for pokemon like Tapu Lele or Greninja or whatever there's much less freedom to simply say "oh I have a lot of grounded mons, let me change some stuff up to not be so Dugtrio weak." Traditionally, it's ok to have multiple pokemon weak to something as long as you have a separate answer to it. In the case of Dugtrio, it doesn't matter if you have other answers as it doesn't really let you switch to them. Having to consciously minimize your Dugtrio weaknesses (this is a lot more than ground weak pokemon) or having to run shed shell is a burden that players cannot be expected to overcome given the other threats of the metagame. And no, the other threats are not problematic, as you can deal with them in a traditional sense. Dugtrio removes the already limited resource in an unskillful way. If you want me to explain why this sort of trapping is skill-less or uncompetitive you can read the second portion of this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-round-5-run-the-jewels.3556762/#post-6537449

    Gothitelle was clearly problematic as seen with its 90+% majority to ban. Magnezone is not problematic, as it only traps a very limited number of pokemon. Somewhere inbetween on this spectrum lies Dugtrio, which is far closer to the Gothitelle side. Whether with a choice item or with a focus sash accompanied by MSab + Defog, Dugtrio traps far too large a number of pokemon in this metagame. Given this sheer number, consciously preventing Dugtrio weaknesses is an unreasonable task to place upon the OU playerbase. If we want the metagame to last and to be healthy, we need to remove Dugtrio from this complex equation. We have a large number of threats, which are mostly fine otherwise, and have no room for Dugtrio's existence.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
  21. Empo

    Empo the world of darkness will be wonderful..
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    Firstly, I think Dugtrio is an "uncompetitive" mon, but let's be clear; duggy with stall kinda autowins with certain kind of playstyles. It eliminates a lot of threats for stall in general, which can be bisharp, and generally steel types, but also things like Tapu Bulu (Dugtrio can have sludge wave although its a bit gimmick but w/e), Hoopa-Unbound, Band Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, and stuff. For example, a Kartana with swords dance plus grassium z generally beats stall, although counter skarm can revengekill it, but there can be dugtrio where sash + reversal kills the threat. Now, I'm not saying that stall with dugtrio is invincible and cannot be defeated but the first bad thing dugtrio gives is raising the matchup for stall. I do not think that dugtrio is broken itself, but it, with stall cores or also offensive ones, is broken.
    Secondly, I agree with anti. Problem can be Arena Trap and not Dugtrio, in fact also Gothitelle was a pain before it got banned, because of its ability. Trapping abilities make mons (see Gothi and Dugtrio) really more uncompetitive than they just are. Not much to add at this point because ABR and anti covered pretty much everything.
    Ban Dugtrio.
  22. Rewer

    Rewer
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    I'm leaning towards ban for now. I feel like it's too hard to prepare for stall while maintaining a solid core right now. Most of the stuff mentioned as stallbreakers dont even break stall most of the time. Maybe if people discover new ways to break stall dugtrio wont be as overwhelming, but right now, it traps and kills pretty much every decent stall breaker. Alolan Marowak is the one that doesn't get trapped, but some dugtrios can run pursuit so it's not as safe. Dugtrio isnt limited to stall either, although it is not as good outside of it. I think trapping in general is very uncompetitive and maybe an Arena Trap suspect in the future isn't a bad idea, since Trapinch and Diglett still trap some (maybe most) of the threats that dugtrio did.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2017
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  23. PokePoindexter

    PokePoindexter

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    I think it would make more sense just to ban the Arena Trap ability instead of a single Pokemon. Dugtrio is pretty mediocre aside from Arena Trap, so once you take that feature away there's very little it can actually do. I really don't think it's necessary to ban a whole Pokemon just because of its Ability (unless it's the only one it has, which isn't the case with Dugtrio); I would say it's better just to ban the Ability itself, since that's the only broken thing about any of the Pokemon that have it, similar to how the combination of Drizzle and Swift Swim was banned in BW.
    s0me1 b0red likes this.
  24. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    The only problem with your argument here is that Blaziken, an otherwise frail Pokémon, has Speed Boost. They could have banned Speed Boost rather than Blaziken itself, as that was the main thing making it broken, but Blaziken in combination with SB was overpowering. If other Pokémon with the ability are not as troublesome, then it is most likely the Pokémon itself that is the problem.
  25. Force Majeure

    Force Majeure

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    For the record: I generally don't like ability bans and it's important to acknowledge that banning an ability from the metagame is a much more extreme step than banning individual mons even if the effect is the same. I'll use Shadow Tag as an example bc Wynaut? The current ban makes it difficult for future councils by forcing either a mess of a suspect with an ability unban + potential individual mons being suspected if future councils decide to see the issue as the broken mons that use shadow tag vs the mons that use shadow tag but may not be broken (without prejudice to the current meta, ofc). This might seem like a small issue but it has implications for future tiering so I'd highly encourage OU council to suspect individual mons (for example Dugtrio and Diglett) if y'all think those mons are problems rather than suspecting arena trap. You can even suspect them all at once if you like and might get the same result while preserving flexibility down the road. Just a detail, but I really like the idea of banning mons over abilities (or moves but that's not for here).

    That being said: the presence of trapping on stall teams is here to stay in some form, probably via reorganization around pursuit trapping with weaville. I don't love the teambuilding effects of Dugtrio (shed shell notwithstanding) so I'm fine with a ban because it got a sweet +20 to its attack that lets it effectively trap so much more than it could before.
    it is an article of tiering philosophy to ban mons and not to create a patchwork of ability bans; that is to say, unless they're absolutely necessary (power construct is only found on one Mon, strangely creating less collateral damage with the ability ban than by banning Zygarde-10 and Zygarde-c). So There are obviously exceptions but the drizzle + SS ban situation is something that is better avoided as it's a complex ability ban.
    WebBowser likes this.
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