6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
Presuming Gren wasn't running Uturn? I'm surprised that doesn't come across as more common...
Also - considering this is in the context of Wonder Trio (Stall) - how often are Dugtrio running choice there?
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Also - considering this is in the context of Wonder Trio (Stall) - how often are Dugtrio running choice there?
Except it isn't purely subjective. I'll grant there's an element of subjectivity to all of my posts (as I play stall and am a vocal proponent of the viability of defensive play styles), however, Smogon's number one concern is that of competition. We are a competitive community, built around being the best competitors. If there is a dominant strategy in the metagame, as competitors we are obligated (not individually but as a community) to utilize that strategy or else we wouldn't be as competitive as possible. My vocal stance against the Stall hate is because Stall is a perfectly competitive strategy; it just so happens to be one that impatient people dislike because they don't want a long game (all other anti-stall arguments seem to stem from being incapable of beating it due to poor skill). Stall isn't inherently uncompetitive, nor is Dugtrio. Things like Endless Games, Evasion boosting are uncompetitive as they rely on factors outside of skill to win. I very much am of the opinion (yes, subjective) that there are 4 major play styles that each deserve an equal presence in the tier (those being Hyper Offense, [generic] Offense, Balance, and Stall).
To me, this ban is a poor excuse for trying to curb Stall, and ultimately it amounts to letting certain things break Stall a little easier, but no more guaranteed. I will always be a vocal opponent of attempts to subjugate a play style that is not out of control.
I know what I'm gonna ask is definitively off-topic, but, can someone give an overview regarding how stall was before AND after M-Sableye? I've seen in this thread that quite a number of people (myself included) believe M-Sable to be the cause of turning said playstyle into such an annoyingly sturdy walnut (I even posted an article some time ago which argues exactly that), but I've never stopped thinking about if that's really the case in the current metagame where, on paper, Z-Moves should make the process of wallbreaking easier.
I just want a solid answer that could hopefully make these claims stopand convince me in the process.
And please don't answer with "M-Sableye's not the topic of this suspect so stop talking about it". There's already evidence about it's influence on ability-based trappers like Duggy or Goth.
I just want a solid answer that could hopefully make these claims stop
And please don't answer with "M-Sableye's not the topic of this suspect so stop talking about it". There's already evidence about it's influence on ability-based trappers like Duggy or Goth.
hecatomb
Banned deucer.
I dont know why people still bring up M-Sable when the tapus can easily counter it, even if switch to Dug you cant trap tapu fini cause of obvious reasons, tapu koko-cause of u-turn, which only leaves tapu lele, which can even use energy ball. Though on the other hand if you start with Char-x or heatran vs M-Sable, and switch in Dug, char-x or heatran will die. Dug can hard counter other mons.
i fucking swear man you have to be trolling. at this point i refuse to believe otherwise
people still bring up sab because it has not only historical links with trapping and matchup issues with stall, but those demonstrable issues still carried over to sm. it shouldn't be hard to see why people continue to harp on about it. it's always been a hot point of contention in the community. yes, with the transition came a good number of relevant threats and mechanic changes that hinder its viability, but it is a member of an (incredibly solid) structure that compensates for those threats and more.
fwiw i don't think there's a single aspect or component of conventional stall/the more problematic builds that make said builds stupid, more of a relationship between clef/unaware+toxapex+sab+skarm with a side serving of dug.
people still bring up sab because it has not only historical links with trapping and matchup issues with stall, but those demonstrable issues still carried over to sm. it shouldn't be hard to see why people continue to harp on about it. it's always been a hot point of contention in the community. yes, with the transition came a good number of relevant threats and mechanic changes that hinder its viability, but it is a member of an (incredibly solid) structure that compensates for those threats and more.
fwiw i don't think there's a single aspect or component of conventional stall/the more problematic builds that make said builds stupid, more of a relationship between clef/unaware+toxapex+sab+skarm with a side serving of dug.
hecatomb
Banned deucer.
Yes cause omg mega sableye is such a problem, thats why its not even in S-tier. Yes lets just ignore the fact that there are tapus on almost every single team that can deal with it, really you are a troll or just refuse to read. Since burn got nerfed also does even will o wisp matter? Hazards have become very dangerous to set up, thanks to greninja and pheromosa. If Dug was banned or arena-trap, stall would suffer a lot, cause even if they started with mega sableye, they can no longer switch into Dug and hard counter.
no. S Rank is for the garbage that does well against lots of mons/playstyles (mmeta) while Sableye doesn't do much outside of hazard prevention and burning stuff
because there are no other mons on a stall team. because every single Tapu carries rocks. right. obviously a troll.
yes. it halves the attack of a mon which was literally pretty much the only reason it was used before.
Pheromosa can't set hazards??? and ninja is kind of lame if anything, can't break past Chansey and forces a few 50/50s
so suddenly Dugtrio holds stall together??? I get that it removes a few breakers but like can't stall just run like pursuit now
honestly I think you need to stop disagreeing with people for the sake of disagreeing with them because you have no idea what you are talking about. sorry if that sounded a bit harsh but the suspect ladder is really getting to me rn
I created the counterplay with E.Button in ShedStall. Let me tell you something. When you're using E.Button, yout whole build must take that i' account. I mean, yh, you have E.Button Amoonguss or whatever, then, hiw can I deal with a Keldeo + Something I need the button for ? You see, there's a building cost. And there's also a playing cost, no leftovers, you must to play around your own item etc ...
It's a really powerful tool, but I'd like to say that is the momentum grab on stall. Offense players use Uturn into Zone right ? This is multiple use, almost 100% to succesful trapping. Eject Button aim is the same, grabbing instant momentum.
That's why one of the best Stall atm is Skarm + Zapdos + Ebut Alo + Chansey + Clefable + Dug.
Obviously.
Thank you. I'm surprised that Eject Button hasn't been mentioned up until this post, because it is one of the things that makes Dugtrio busted. I believe it not only makes Dugtrio overpowered, but also makes it uncompetitive - which yes I know is a term that gets thrown around a lot when discussing trapping abilities.
Eject Button + Dugtrio is uncompetitive because it gives the user an extremely safe option for bringing in Dugtrio at any given moment of the match, just as long as the opponent wants to try attacking something. This gives Dugtrio more longevity and more turns at fulfilling its role as a trapper. Though this combination is often seen on stall builds with Toxapex and Alomomola as common users, it's extremely difficult to predict due to the likelyhood that, say, the Toxapex user may be Rocky Helmet or something else besides Black Sludge. Once you reveal the item with any move other than Knock Off, it's already too late and you've given the Dugtrio-user momentum. A lot of people arent aware of the mechanics of Eject Button; Volt Switch and U-Turn WILL activate Eject Button while canceling the effect of switching out, meaning that common Volt-turners like Magearna and Greninja cannot Volt-turn safely. Taking away the ability to safely volt-turn vs stall (or any team i guess) is absolutely huge.
So ban Eject Button? Nah. Dugtrio's bustedness has already been discussed at length in this thread, and I already advocated for a suspect test in ORAS OU when it was slightly less dumb. It comes down to its decent offensive stats and obviously its ability, with a much appreciated buff that allows it to OHKO more things thus further increasing its longevity. At this point, I'm heavily leaning towards a ban.
I may touch upon Diglett at a later point, but I don't think trapping/OHKOing like 3 mons in the tier is enough to even call this thing influential.
How exactly does using Eject Button make Arena Trap/Dugtrio uncompetitive? Using EB means you have to forfeit a recovery item and play the EB Pokemon in a very deliberate and particular way. Is it an effective strategy? Absolutely. That said, there is a tradeoff in reliability and sustainability when you use it. I don't see how sacrificing recovery and reliability is uncompetitive. If anything, that is competitive. Uncompetitive elements are things that literally remove skill from both players, so things like Evasion, Moody, Swagger (prior to nerf), Sleep spam (without the Sleep Clause), and OHKO moves are uncompetitive because you're mostly just relying on coin flips or even less.
Trapping is not uncompetitive because it's not restricting to both parties, and the restriction imposed upon the one party can be avoided with counterplay/items. Running Shed Shell is a competitive reaction to trapping.
Hello,
I'm definitely not a fan of these looong discussions which consist mainly in (imo) hollow arguments.
Most people keep claiming duggy cannot beat greninja, nor gross etc.
But who cares?
The answer is simple: breaking stall means using kyuremB, tyranitar band, heatran, hoopa, etc. Dugtrio trapkills all of them. And you know what? I like duggy. But you either ban stall, either duggy; we can't keep losing 6-0 to random players using both because our stallbreakers are trapped. I say ban stall,you laugh at me. So, at least, ban duggy.
Duggy in offense is often funny; duggystall is completely brainless and op, like playing a football match where the 11 players are defending the goal and each time a strong attacker threatens to break past the defense, you can kill it lOl
Those who play stall and have never felt the pain of creative offense being destroyed by a pokemon who, somehow, has the perfect ability and stats, and moves (reversal!) to kill all the wallbreakers, should think twice before saying it's not op. We are not here to talk about theory: just go and ladder and feel the pain.
Thanks for reading
I'm definitely not a fan of these looong discussions which consist mainly in (imo) hollow arguments.
Most people keep claiming duggy cannot beat greninja, nor gross etc.
But who cares?
The answer is simple: breaking stall means using kyuremB, tyranitar band, heatran, hoopa, etc. Dugtrio trapkills all of them. And you know what? I like duggy. But you either ban stall, either duggy; we can't keep losing 6-0 to random players using both because our stallbreakers are trapped. I say ban stall,you laugh at me. So, at least, ban duggy.
Duggy in offense is often funny; duggystall is completely brainless and op, like playing a football match where the 11 players are defending the goal and each time a strong attacker threatens to break past the defense, you can kill it lOl
Those who play stall and have never felt the pain of creative offense being destroyed by a pokemon who, somehow, has the perfect ability and stats, and moves (reversal!) to kill all the wallbreakers, should think twice before saying it's not op. We are not here to talk about theory: just go and ladder and feel the pain.
Thanks for reading
I stated in my post that EB makes Dugtrio uncompetitive because it offers a safe option for the user to deploy at any point during the match. It takes away the need to directly switch in Dugtrio on something its supposed to trap, making it pretty skill-less for the user. It is very restrictive for the opposing player, with the only two modes of counterplay being A) shed shell and B) not attacking. Both Eject Button and Shed Shell are potentially costly to use for sure, but you're not going to run Shed Shell on everything you want to keep safe from Dugtrio, ie Greninja. It may be "competitive" from a teambuilding and preparation perspective, but from a gameplay perspective I'd argue that it's still uncompetitive.
I'm speaking from experience. It doesn't take skill to switch from Mega Sableye to EB Seismitoad to trap an opposing Heatran going for Lava Plume. It doesn't take skill to repeatedly switch out into EB Amoonguss in an attempt to catch a Magnezone or Greninja by surprise. I believe there comes a point where extreme low risk and high reward makes a game element uncompetitive. If you disagree with this semantic then just replace "uncompetitive" with "outright broken" and you should pretty much get the point of my initial argument.
I respect that you speak from experience, and I'm not saying that it isn't an easy button into Dugtrio; I'm saying that it doesn't constitute as uncompetitive. If every easy button were deemed uncompetitive, we would have banned Metagross long ago. Sable would probably also have gotten the boot too because it poses an immense restriction on gameplay too. But the fact of the matter is that EB -> Dugtrio isn't 100% effective every game, nor does it guarantee a win. Sure, you can trap and KO a Heatran, but that's only prudent to do if Heatran is THE ONLY threat to your team. A lot of the SPL replays with Dugtrio show it actually being setup fodder because Dugtrio is a huge liability against a bunch of the metagame.
I really think people are overstating the value of a "guaranteed KO" because sometimes KO'ing something with Dugtrio actually loses you more momentum than it gains. In a situation like that--or rather against a team like that--building around EB -> Dugtrio can mean you might actually be 2 mons down because you don't want to give the opponent a chance to sweep/steal all the momentum prematurely. Basically, what I'm saying is EB -> Dugtrio is really good if the other team doesn't have something that likes to setup on Dugtrio and you can ensure you retain momentum after Duggy gets a KO.
If dug is "6-0ing" you offensive team because it traps your only breaker, then that is YOUR fault for using a crappy breaker and/or not accounting for the known threat of it on stall. There are very easy answers to trapping, like shed shell, fast U-turns and type immunities.
The "meta" is at a state right now where YOU CANT PREPARE FOR EVERY THREAT. You just have to prep for whatever is most frequent. Using shed shell Tran might hurt in other matchups, but you'll clean sweep stall. Likewise, offense killers won't do too hot against stall.
Maybe if we skimmed off some of the "if you don't prepare for me, you lose" stuff off the top, then dugtrio wouldn't come as such an anti-meta surprise.
Seriously, people complain about the dug, (which does have 10% usage, so you should expect to see it), when crap like M-meta can and will destroy any team if you lack a check. Smh
The "meta" is at a state right now where YOU CANT PREPARE FOR EVERY THREAT. You just have to prep for whatever is most frequent. Using shed shell Tran might hurt in other matchups, but you'll clean sweep stall. Likewise, offense killers won't do too hot against stall.
Maybe if we skimmed off some of the "if you don't prepare for me, you lose" stuff off the top, then dugtrio wouldn't come as such an anti-meta surprise.
Seriously, people complain about the dug, (which does have 10% usage, so you should expect to see it), when crap like M-meta can and will destroy any team if you lack a check. Smh
We suspect mons to balance the meta. For some reason when we try to ban things found on stall, it's taken as a crusade against stall as a playstyle. And yet, there are always more offensive mons banned, but nobody accuses the council of hating offense. I understand i oversimplified there but the point is Dugtrio isn't equivalent to stall, and banning Dugtrio does nerf stall, but its not the end of the world for it.
Is it most effective on stall? Yes. Because stalls goal is to counter team as many relevant strategies as possible, and Dugtrio places a very big constraint on strategies revolving around obliterating fat mons. That said, it's still effective on offense and can still do the same thing; the difference is the opposing team probably has more counterplay to an offensive team with Dugtrio than a stall team with Dugtrio.
I look at this in two ways:
1. Given the precedent of the Shadow Tag ban in ORAS, does Dugtrio meet some of the same standards that Gothitelle did in that metagame?
2. Is Dugtrio uncompetitive on teams outside of stall?
I think the answer to both questions is yes. Dugtrio is arguably even better than Gothitelle because it gets kills instead of just crippling stuff. I also do think it remains uncompetitive outside of stall teams; although it's overall effectiveness is lower, so it's not viewed as nearly as big of a problem in those scenarios.
Regardless of whether you think Metagross or Greninja or whatever mon is broken, dismissing this suspect because of it coming before them is terrible logic. Dugtrio exhibits almost all of the same stupid attributes that Goth did in ORAS, and uncompetitive/ broken stuff should all go, regardless of the order.
e: to clarify, I don't mean that order of suspects is insignificant. What I mean is that if a mon is deserving of a suspect and receives it, the suspect shouldn't be dismissed just because something else is arguably more deserving.
Is it most effective on stall? Yes. Because stalls goal is to counter team as many relevant strategies as possible, and Dugtrio places a very big constraint on strategies revolving around obliterating fat mons. That said, it's still effective on offense and can still do the same thing; the difference is the opposing team probably has more counterplay to an offensive team with Dugtrio than a stall team with Dugtrio.
I look at this in two ways:
1. Given the precedent of the Shadow Tag ban in ORAS, does Dugtrio meet some of the same standards that Gothitelle did in that metagame?
2. Is Dugtrio uncompetitive on teams outside of stall?
I think the answer to both questions is yes. Dugtrio is arguably even better than Gothitelle because it gets kills instead of just crippling stuff. I also do think it remains uncompetitive outside of stall teams; although it's overall effectiveness is lower, so it's not viewed as nearly as big of a problem in those scenarios.
Regardless of whether you think Metagross or Greninja or whatever mon is broken, dismissing this suspect because of it coming before them is terrible logic. Dugtrio exhibits almost all of the same stupid attributes that Goth did in ORAS, and uncompetitive/ broken stuff should all go, regardless of the order.
e: to clarify, I don't mean that order of suspects is insignificant. What I mean is that if a mon is deserving of a suspect and receives it, the suspect shouldn't be dismissed just because something else is arguably more deserving.
Sorry for jumbo quote since I'm on phone.
Concerning the first pint, yes dugtrio clearly exhibits similar qualities to gothielle. It can consistently eliminate desired threats to dugtrio's team once it's in and can do so with very little risk to the user.
Point 2, however is where I think there is contention. Dugtrio is not inherently a "broken" or uncompetitive pokemon, rather it provides a unique role in a metagame that is currently heavily polarized between lots of offensive threats, and near impenetrable stall, sav for a few holes that dugtrio can patch. With less varied offensive and defensive threats, dugtrio would be out of a job right now.
If anything is uncompetitive it's arena trap and even more broadly trapping in general. I don't want to get into that here, but there's a fine line between shadowtag and a super-powerful pursuit.
Either way, order of bans would have a very real impact. E.g. ban mega sabeleye now and dug will be OU until another fat magic bouncer comes along. Ban lando and suddenly a million more things are viable. In all cases, we should aim to balance the meta, and the order, timing and selectiveness of that approach will affect the severity of the outcome.
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I really don't buy this argument. There are very few situations I can think of where the case would be that duggy getting a KO leads to a greater loss to the dugtrio player than to their opp. By nature of the game, getting a KO usually shifts momentum back to the person who got KOd, so there is always some degree of this present. HOWEVER, dugtrio arguably offers it's user better tools to gain the momentum back than almost any other poke. For one thing, there's always memento which is commonly run, but also there's a good chance that what they brought in next is also trapped by Duggy. Sure, maybe it beats the mon and has nothing to fear from it (say, a tangrowth), but the dugtrio user has 1 vital piece of information that no other legal poke can give you in this situation: that grounded mon isn't switching out, cause it can't. So the next play duggy user can make can be a hard switch into their counter.
The only real way someone is going to be stealing momentum from a dugtrio after it gets a KO is by bringing in a boosting flying type like gyarados or landorus, which any stall team should be able to handle anyway, either via unaware, p/hazing, or really thicc walls.
And then does it really matter? Dug's job is to take out specific threats, and at this point it's done it's job.
This could be answered, but it would be so much theorymon and guessing at what would be, because MSab's arrival wasn't the only meta change at the time. We got a bunch of new megas that had a huge impact on the tier, changing viability of this and that. And if you go back even further to old gens, this is even more true. It's hard to compare how 1 thing functions in a specific meta compared to another because that 1 thing is only one of very many things that are different, and meta aspects are interconnected so this would be very hard if not impossible to suss out.
One thing we could potentially analyze is the ORAS metagame before and after MSab ban, as that was a singular event in a settled meta. If anyone is still playing ORAS and has experienced post-MSab stall, tat would be v interesting to hear about. If I had to guess, double defog + dugtrio is just as viable as MSab + dugtrio.
The word "uncompetitive" is being thrown around like it's Riley Reid at this point, and half the dudes posting don't know what it even means.
I'm probably going to get a ton of backlash for saying this, but what people don't understand is that if Dugtrio isn't banned now, the council WILL eventually suspect Mega-Sableye or Arena Trap as a whole in the near future, because they think stall absolutely needs a nerf. If they didn't, they wouldn't do this suspect test at all. However, most dudes here don't seem to have the patience to wait for that, which is understandable, yet incredibly idiotic. Dugtrio is absolutely not the reason stall is as good as it is, Sableye is. It is just so incredibly easy to say that Dugtrio is "uncompetitive" and "broken" because it traps shit.
This suspect also conflicts with the ORAS Shadow Tag ban for obvious reasons, and you can see that people have had success with Diglett and Trapinch as the 6th member of SM stall, just like Gothita replaced Gothitelle for ORAS stall. I absolutely think an Arena Trap ban as a whole is the way to go right now if stall absolutely needs a nerf (something I don't necessarily agree with myself), instead of just Dugtrio, and I have no clue how the council didn't come to this conclusion.
And to answer the questions above, Dugtrio is not broken outside of stall at all. I think Scarf Dugtrio is in fact a really cool and unique scarfer on more offensive builds, considering its defenses are worthless and without a Reversal doesn't have to power to kill certain threats that it does with a Focus Sash. Similar to Gothitelle in ORAS, this is also an incredibly easy ban to do, because it will barely affect the "main" playstyle, unlike a potential Mega-Metagross ban, where it flips the entire metagame on its head. Because I am a rule minimalist, I'd argue Gothitelle could be unbanned in ORAS and have a very minor influence, but I already know this won't happen.
Unfortunately this post will probably slide by, because I don't have colorful badges like several users before me.
I'm probably going to get a ton of backlash for saying this, but what people don't understand is that if Dugtrio isn't banned now, the council WILL eventually suspect Mega-Sableye or Arena Trap as a whole in the near future, because they think stall absolutely needs a nerf. If they didn't, they wouldn't do this suspect test at all. However, most dudes here don't seem to have the patience to wait for that, which is understandable, yet incredibly idiotic. Dugtrio is absolutely not the reason stall is as good as it is, Sableye is. It is just so incredibly easy to say that Dugtrio is "uncompetitive" and "broken" because it traps shit.
This suspect also conflicts with the ORAS Shadow Tag ban for obvious reasons, and you can see that people have had success with Diglett and Trapinch as the 6th member of SM stall, just like Gothita replaced Gothitelle for ORAS stall. I absolutely think an Arena Trap ban as a whole is the way to go right now if stall absolutely needs a nerf (something I don't necessarily agree with myself), instead of just Dugtrio, and I have no clue how the council didn't come to this conclusion.
And to answer the questions above, Dugtrio is not broken outside of stall at all. I think Scarf Dugtrio is in fact a really cool and unique scarfer on more offensive builds, considering its defenses are worthless and without a Reversal doesn't have to power to kill certain threats that it does with a Focus Sash. Similar to Gothitelle in ORAS, this is also an incredibly easy ban to do, because it will barely affect the "main" playstyle, unlike a potential Mega-Metagross ban, where it flips the entire metagame on its head. Because I am a rule minimalist, I'd argue Gothitelle could be unbanned in ORAS and have a very minor influence, but I already know this won't happen.
Unfortunately this post will probably slide by, because I don't have colorful badges like several users before me.
p2
Banned deucer.
stall wasn't a problem back in xy, even with gothitelle and dugtrio running around, its just that a certain threat was released with oras that suddenly makes trapping broken :thinking:
stall hasn't been a problem in post-sableye oras either. it still punishes bad building but it's never to the point where you can autolose just because you lose your stallbreakers due to getting them trapped, and as a matter of fact, other stallbreakers immune to trapping or not bothered by dugtrio have became significantly more viable (mew / gliscor for examples) as they are no longer completely shut off out of the meta. duggy also becomes way more inconsistent in oras due to the fact that there is no more "perfect" hazard control, making it a lot easier to apply pressure passively and ensuring duggys sash isn't sticking around.
this team isn't even that good, all it does is fish matchup wins on the ladder because nobody prepares for stall adequately there. it also benefits from the fact that people will not be relying on things like glisc/mew as their stallbreakers in a meta where sab is still legal. (and yes sab is that dumb to the point where its near unviable to run things like gliscor or mew as a stallbreaker).
I believe blutz's saying that both accomplish very similar roles for stall. How they do that is where they're different, and on that I agree with you.
This right here is what feels weird about this whole suspect. We have this pokemon whose main gimmick is to trap grounded things, and it also happens it's good at doing it. In most matches, I've seen it either revenge kill something or be almost useless. In a v/s stall match, it's win rate usually skyrockers like whoa. This has convinced me that Duggy's broken sometimes (and yes, I'm aware that sounds weird). And while stall teams in general are not that many (around 5% if the usage's stadistics are anything to go by, which slightly raise the higher you are on the ladder), we can't deny they leave a lasting impression that reaaaaaaly seem to work against them in the long run.
I believe someone asked some posts ago if it was worth banning Arena Trap (or it was duggy?) if it meant destroying stall as we now it. If this whole thread is any indication, the answers seems to be yes, even if I don't think that should be the way to do it.
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I think a large part of the reason why people are more ok with banning random offensive mons then they are with banning stall mons is that there is simply more offensive mons then there are defensive ones. If gren gets banned, people can fairly easily put in a different fast and versatile attacker like Keldeo or Torn-T. Nothing really does what Duggy does and not everyone is entirely convinced that Duggy is even broken. Heck, a lot of the recent anti-ban arguments have been saying that stall will still be busted after duggy goes, and if that's the case then what did this suspect actually accomplish?
A third point worth making is that trappers in general are very meta-dependent pokemon. If there exists a bunch of win conditions that only one mon on the opposing team is capable of doing anything about, then trappers become substantially stronger (this is why most XY/ORAS BP teams carried a trapper). The argument is that by banning other probably busted threats, the meta could very well shift to one that is less friendly to duggy, making him a less broken and possibly healthy aspect of the meta.
Ofc, if you want to argue that arena trap is inherently uncompetetive because it can prevent switching, then by all means ban duggy (though if that's the line of thinking then I would recommend considering banning arena trap as a whole). Personally, I do not believe that trapping abilities are inherently uncompetetive, only when the user in question is too powerful (e.g. there is no foreseeable meta where mega Gengar will be ok in OU). Dugtrio is definitely a very borderline case, in that while he can trap a wide variety of pokemon, he requires a fair bit of team support to do it's job effectively(hazard removal, hard stops to the several threats that see duggy as setup bait) and often times needs a sac, slow u-turn, or eject button in order to do its job. Furthermore, barring substantial misplay on the part of the opponent, duggy is never getting more then one kill per game, so the reward granted seems kind of low-ish considering the sheer amount of team support he needs. Obviously, he's made the cut into some very good teams, so obviously he's good, but I'm not fully convinced that he's the broken element of stall nor am I convinced that his trapping ability is on the same level as Gothetelle (who was even more versatile, does not require strict hazard control, and could sometimes abuse it's target in order to setup sweep with CM).
hecatomb
Banned deucer.
I dont agree with this statement at all, because you are basically saying it is everyones fault for using Char-x, Heatran or anything else that gets hard countered by Dug, its everyones fault for using mons that cant do anything on a switch in Dug, that just hard counters you. People should be able to switch out from anything and not make certain pokemon useless the whole game cause they dont have u-turn.
People have responded to my post and mentioned how a stall player has opportunity cost by having dugtrio remain useless in many situations (until it can trap something) and that by running Eject Button you lose black sludge/lefties on Amoonguss/Alomomola/etc. It seems that I must spell it out, as although competent players are aware of my point, some people are missing it.
First: No shit, Sherlock. Everything in Pokemon, as well as life, has an opportunity cost in some way.
Second: The notion that the lack of passive recovery is too harmful must be the counterargument. Is this true? That largely comes down to teambuilding methods, as the mons that the E-Button user typically checks may be too much to handle without the passive recovery, so the stall player must compensate by having another answer.
tl;dr Opportunity cost is mitigated by good teambuilding.
Third: A person playing against stall has no means of preparing for E-Button strategies unless they know it's coming well in advance. Eject Button's usage is fairly low and as a result players can't beat it well. A player knows that if they make X plays then they can circumvent being trapped; Eject Button ruins skilled play by making the correct series of plays suddenly become wrong in a way that can't be prepared for. The unpredictability invalidates the stall opponent's skill and makes it largely one-sided in the stall user's favor. If you don't know it's coming, it's already too late.
So please, people, argue over what makes something healthy/unhealthy, not for what it accomplishes in battles. That is an example point, not the topic of the debate.
rant over, agree fully with what p2 and Bludz said above.
First: No shit, Sherlock. Everything in Pokemon, as well as life, has an opportunity cost in some way.
Second: The notion that the lack of passive recovery is too harmful must be the counterargument. Is this true? That largely comes down to teambuilding methods, as the mons that the E-Button user typically checks may be too much to handle without the passive recovery, so the stall player must compensate by having another answer.
tl;dr Opportunity cost is mitigated by good teambuilding.
Third: A person playing against stall has no means of preparing for E-Button strategies unless they know it's coming well in advance. Eject Button's usage is fairly low and as a result players can't beat it well. A player knows that if they make X plays then they can circumvent being trapped; Eject Button ruins skilled play by making the correct series of plays suddenly become wrong in a way that can't be prepared for. The unpredictability invalidates the stall opponent's skill and makes it largely one-sided in the stall user's favor. If you don't know it's coming, it's already too late.
So please, people, argue over what makes something healthy/unhealthy, not for what it accomplishes in battles. That is an example point, not the topic of the debate.
rant over, agree fully with what p2 and Bludz said above.
Me and I Like Pink Mons are the guys who built this team. There's some counterplays to Mew or Gliscor but yh, this was not considered as a priority. I also won my r1 OST vs GtM with it. Trust me it's efficient. Only important weak point to notice are heavy volturn and ofc Z SE + SD + SR.
In ORAS Dugtrio was not found broken, so I really don't understand how it's performance in oras can support its ban in SM. You're saying Dugtrio is uncompetitive but one could argue that trapping mechanics are healthy and are not uncompetitive so I would like a more solid stance on why Dugtrio is uncompetitive rather than just stating it as fact.
The OU Council is not suspecting Dugtrio because arena trap is uncompetitive but because they feel Dugtrio makes stall too strong but you yourself admit that stall is still strong without Dugtrio, so by this logic I cannot see why anyone should vote to ban Dugtrio when it isn't sloving what is is supposed to solve.
Not trying to target you personally just addressing this in general.
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