I agree that Arena Trap should be the thing suspected, but we have to face the reality of the situation - Dugtrio is the one being tested. This suspect has arisen due to Dugtrio's impact on the entire metagame. Arena Trap might be the primary factor that enables Dugtrio to do what it does, but sometimes in tiering the ability and the pokemon aren't separated, even if the ability is the clear culprit. If you think Arena Trap is an issue, then it only makes sense to see the main Arena Trap abuser as an issue. Regardless of what the suspect test says, if it's about Dugtrio or Arena Trap, your vote should not change. I hope that you or any other potential voter would vote the same way for both potential tests, because Arena Trap will probably never be tested in gen 7.
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I believe we should respect the council's decision and stay on dugtrio.
Going back to the heart of the matter, dugtrio helps stall teams by removing the stallbreakers, hard hitters with moves and abilities dedicated to counter stall, but not fast or bulky enough to survive to a sweeper such as dugtrio. Dugtrio, having pathetic bulk, appreciates in return stall team's EH control to preserve its focus sash and have more room to kill.
Is there really no stallbreaker that is not weak to dugtrio ? Would it be a bad idea to pack two stallbreakers, one of which may fall while the second survives ?
Lastly if the alliance stall+dugtrio is still too strong, can't we find a way to ban dugtrio on stall teams only ? Would it be too hard to implement such a feature ?
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The bigger issue is that there's a very small number of Stallbreakers that beat Dugtrio, and I don't know how many of them can beat Dugtrio and still pull their weight vs the rest of OU. Multiple Stallbreakers isn't quite a solution either because with how many threats the game needs the player to account for, fitting two mons with the description of Stallbreaker is a noticeable strain on teammbuilding, especially when synergy with each other is vital.
I tend to not like getting involved in suspect discussions for the most part, but there is one argument from the pro-ban crowd that I feel is misinformed: That is, the notion that Dugtrio does not have counter-play. Sure once mole comes in on a Pokemon it can OHKO, there's nothing you can do about it, but the potential for counter-play occurs before this. There are two ways you can go about this:
1) Set optimization: There are many ways to get around an attempted Dugtrio trap. You can add U-turn to your fast offensive threat. You can add Shed Shell to your powerful but frail attacker. It can even be as simple as slap Substitute onto your Wallbreaker Heatran to at least give yourself a fighting chance via Magma Storm if you predict properly. I see a lot of complaining about how people's Tapu Leles are gimped in their wallbreaking power due to having to run Shed Shell. Guess what? You're supposed to optimize your sets to fit the meta. And if you keep losing to stall because your Lele is holding a Twisted Spoon, that's your own fault for not taking that into consideration when teambuilding. Dugtrio absolutely puts a lot of strain on teambuilding, but so do Mega Metagross, Greninja, Pheromosa, and Lele. You already adjust your sets to make your team less prone to being ran over by the offensive powerhouses. Why is it so wrong to have to make your team less Dugtrio weak?
2) Control the pace: Put yourself in a position where the mole's impact is minimized. There are plenty of ways to get up entry hazards against Mega Sab, and if you can get rid of the Sash, Dugtrio's impact is immediately gimped. No longer can they go for hard switch-ins against slower wallbreakers. No longer can they come in and eliminate anything it can 2HKO. Also, know what mons you're willing to trade off for Dugtrio. Your wallbreakers are enablers for your sweepers, and if you're smart about what you kill, you can put yourself in a great spot to win. If the only thing stopping your Charizard-X from ripping the opposing team apart is Toxapex, then it's absolutely worth it to sac your wallbreaker to kill Tox. But if you get greedy and kill Skarm, then you've misplayed and the Dugtrio player deserves to kill your win enabler and wall you out. You can also plan out the turns following Dugtrio's entry into the battlefield. While there are some Pokes that just absolutely get decimated by Dugtrio, there are plenty of others that can take advantage of it as set-up fodder. Proper long-term planning is sometimes difficult and I myself fuck up all the time. But it's a key skill in battling, what's wrong with learning from your mistakes?
While I'm mostly talking about stall above. Similar concepts can be applied to playing with or against Dugtrio whether it be on balance, bulky offense, hyper offense, or 3rd gen Milotic/Blissey/Skarmory stall if that's what floats your boat. It doesn't matter. It's up to you to have a contingency plan against Dugtrio and just because you built a piss poor Dugtrio weak team or risked your win enabler for no reason doesn't mean Dugtrio "has no counter-play". On a tangent to the idea of counter-play, the claim that seeing Dugtrio in team preview forces sub-optimal plays is complete bogus. The whole point of team preview is to allow for long-term planning. If the opponent has a Dugtrio, then playing safely. If you get greedy and try to go for game too early, then your loss to Dugtrio is your own fault. If they see that your Mega Metagross is your only ticket to victory against Scarf Lele, and manage to double switch in Duggy as you try to get in gross, then your opponent made a ballsy play and deserves to win. Guess what, if you saw a Mega Metagross, Greninja, Pheromosa, or Tapu Lele in team preview. You'd make plays you normally wouldn't as well. It's called adaptability. You don't get to go into every game following a step by step formula on how to farm free wins. Play the player, not the team. Having to hold off on bringing in your win condition isn't you being forced to play sub-optimally. It IS the optimal play.
Moreover, Dugtrio itself is a measure of counter-play for stall. Trapping has been a thing in stall since Gen 3 often because it is necessary for certain stall cores to function. There are plenty of teams on the ladder right now that are packing 2 stallbreakers, often with another powerful wallbreaker/sweeper hybrid. This puts an incredible amount of pressure on stall teams and if there was no Dugtrio waiting in the wings, the Tapu Lele or Hoopa-Unbound can get a kill pretty much every time it comes in and can come and go as it pleases. Sure you can replace it with a Pursuit trapper (or if you're on crack, Diglett/Trapinch), but they wont be able to function as optimally, nor can they trap as many threatening breakers, and leaves your stall core more prone to getting abused.
Is counter-play against Dugtrio more difficult than that of most other Pokemon? Absolutely. Does it put a lot of strain on teambuilding? Definitely. Is it possible that Dugtrio is an unhealthy element to the metagame? Possibly. I am personally on the fence about the issue. But please don't use "there's nothing I can do playing against Dugtrio" as your reason for arguing pro-ban.
1) Set optimization: There are many ways to get around an attempted Dugtrio trap. You can add U-turn to your fast offensive threat. You can add Shed Shell to your powerful but frail attacker. It can even be as simple as slap Substitute onto your Wallbreaker Heatran to at least give yourself a fighting chance via Magma Storm if you predict properly. I see a lot of complaining about how people's Tapu Leles are gimped in their wallbreaking power due to having to run Shed Shell. Guess what? You're supposed to optimize your sets to fit the meta. And if you keep losing to stall because your Lele is holding a Twisted Spoon, that's your own fault for not taking that into consideration when teambuilding. Dugtrio absolutely puts a lot of strain on teambuilding, but so do Mega Metagross, Greninja, Pheromosa, and Lele. You already adjust your sets to make your team less prone to being ran over by the offensive powerhouses. Why is it so wrong to have to make your team less Dugtrio weak?
2) Control the pace: Put yourself in a position where the mole's impact is minimized. There are plenty of ways to get up entry hazards against Mega Sab, and if you can get rid of the Sash, Dugtrio's impact is immediately gimped. No longer can they go for hard switch-ins against slower wallbreakers. No longer can they come in and eliminate anything it can 2HKO. Also, know what mons you're willing to trade off for Dugtrio. Your wallbreakers are enablers for your sweepers, and if you're smart about what you kill, you can put yourself in a great spot to win. If the only thing stopping your Charizard-X from ripping the opposing team apart is Toxapex, then it's absolutely worth it to sac your wallbreaker to kill Tox. But if you get greedy and kill Skarm, then you've misplayed and the Dugtrio player deserves to kill your win enabler and wall you out. You can also plan out the turns following Dugtrio's entry into the battlefield. While there are some Pokes that just absolutely get decimated by Dugtrio, there are plenty of others that can take advantage of it as set-up fodder. Proper long-term planning is sometimes difficult and I myself fuck up all the time. But it's a key skill in battling, what's wrong with learning from your mistakes?
While I'm mostly talking about stall above. Similar concepts can be applied to playing with or against Dugtrio whether it be on balance, bulky offense, hyper offense, or 3rd gen Milotic/Blissey/Skarmory stall if that's what floats your boat. It doesn't matter. It's up to you to have a contingency plan against Dugtrio and just because you built a piss poor Dugtrio weak team or risked your win enabler for no reason doesn't mean Dugtrio "has no counter-play". On a tangent to the idea of counter-play, the claim that seeing Dugtrio in team preview forces sub-optimal plays is complete bogus. The whole point of team preview is to allow for long-term planning. If the opponent has a Dugtrio, then playing safely. If you get greedy and try to go for game too early, then your loss to Dugtrio is your own fault. If they see that your Mega Metagross is your only ticket to victory against Scarf Lele, and manage to double switch in Duggy as you try to get in gross, then your opponent made a ballsy play and deserves to win. Guess what, if you saw a Mega Metagross, Greninja, Pheromosa, or Tapu Lele in team preview. You'd make plays you normally wouldn't as well. It's called adaptability. You don't get to go into every game following a step by step formula on how to farm free wins. Play the player, not the team. Having to hold off on bringing in your win condition isn't you being forced to play sub-optimally. It IS the optimal play.
Moreover, Dugtrio itself is a measure of counter-play for stall. Trapping has been a thing in stall since Gen 3 often because it is necessary for certain stall cores to function. There are plenty of teams on the ladder right now that are packing 2 stallbreakers, often with another powerful wallbreaker/sweeper hybrid. This puts an incredible amount of pressure on stall teams and if there was no Dugtrio waiting in the wings, the Tapu Lele or Hoopa-Unbound can get a kill pretty much every time it comes in and can come and go as it pleases. Sure you can replace it with a Pursuit trapper (or if you're on crack, Diglett/Trapinch), but they wont be able to function as optimally, nor can they trap as many threatening breakers, and leaves your stall core more prone to getting abused.
Is counter-play against Dugtrio more difficult than that of most other Pokemon? Absolutely. Does it put a lot of strain on teambuilding? Definitely. Is it possible that Dugtrio is an unhealthy element to the metagame? Possibly. I am personally on the fence about the issue. But please don't use "there's nothing I can do playing against Dugtrio" as your reason for arguing pro-ban.
1. Dugtrio is a singular mon to have to adjust to, both in terms of how it specifically functions and the more general fact that there are no other relevant trappers bar the very specific Magnezone. There's a difference between something like Tapu Lele electing to run Scarf vs Twistedspoon as sort of an "offense vs defense" match up, and Lele having to run Twistedspoon vs Shed Shell for "Literally everything else vs Dugtrio" as the decision. Dugtrio's ability to exert a degree of pressure that normally would come from multiple other mons is not a point in favor of calling it a healthy influence. Making a team less Dugtrio weak is necessary to make it less Stall weak outright. On the other hand, it is possible to make a team that is not offense weak, but might still be Tapu Koko or Pheromosa weak, because those mons are assets to the playstyle without being so obnoxiously proficient at their role that they define the playstyle at large from a preparation perspective. And with regards to your Metagross/Greninja examples, I'm debating if I consider them healthy presences in the meta right now, and I'm willing to say a number of others are as well, so they're not the strongest support for your argument.
2. The flaw with this is that a lot of the Stallbreakers that Dugtrio traps are mons that have the responsibility of removing multiple obstacles to a sweep, or may simply be the only means to do so on a team given the increasing burden per slot. In the above example of removing Toxapex for a Zard-X sweep, you need to force Toxapex into play before you can get rid of it. If your opponent is aware that Toxapex is their best stop to your set up sweeper, they'll probably play as conservatively with it as they can until the breaker for it is gone. The difference here is that there's always a prediction element if the ability to switch out exists. I've got Lele vs Toxapex and the opponent has Chansey in the back. Lele wins against Toxapex, but it's not as simple as clicking Psychic since giving Chansey a free entry to patch itself up, throw out rocks, etc. could also be a big weight on my ability to break the team later. While Psychic is the ideal move, it's not objectively the move I should make every time. With Dugtrio, once he has Lele trapped, there is next to nothing I can do to avert the KO if I'm not running a Shed Shell set. This may seem like an oversimplification of the scenario, which is very well might be, but it stems from a greater issue: The Dugtrio loser (EDIT: "user" but I laughed too hard to fix that typo after reading it back to myself) has to do significantly less prediction for Dugtrio to put in work for its team. Both sides in a game are capable of counterplay in creating or reacting to a scenario, and predicting how the opponent reacts is paramount to double switches. It takes prediction to create the scenario and then to capitalize on it, but Dugtrio requires significantly less risk for the latter. And the issue subsequently becomes the fact that playing against Dugtrio from team preview is something you can only try to do proactively. With Pheromosa, I aim to keep Toxapex or Marowak healthy so they're ready to react when she does come in and I need them, but there's next to nothing I can keep healthy to react to Dugtrio because switching is part of checking/reacting to it. My only counterplay is to minimize the use of his trapping targets to avoid creating opportunities for Dugtrio to trap them, at which point he's still accomplishing his job of keeping that mon out of the way as much as possible so it doesn't break the Stall core down.
Mons like Pheromosa and Tapu Lele do require planning and adapting to their presence, but the ability TO REACT to them when they attempt to do their work means it takes more for the opponent to know how to play them against you for them to contribute properly: their presence and practice performance are a fairly even split of their influence on the battle. Dugtrio is much more lopsided, because everyone already knows what he's there for and it's a matter of never letting a situation arise where he can do so. Dugtrio's presence/action ratio for influence leans much more heavily towards the former (I'd give it at least a 70:30 split if I had to assign numbers) since there's nothing to predict once he goes into action, if he has to at all.
2. The flaw with this is that a lot of the Stallbreakers that Dugtrio traps are mons that have the responsibility of removing multiple obstacles to a sweep, or may simply be the only means to do so on a team given the increasing burden per slot. In the above example of removing Toxapex for a Zard-X sweep, you need to force Toxapex into play before you can get rid of it. If your opponent is aware that Toxapex is their best stop to your set up sweeper, they'll probably play as conservatively with it as they can until the breaker for it is gone. The difference here is that there's always a prediction element if the ability to switch out exists. I've got Lele vs Toxapex and the opponent has Chansey in the back. Lele wins against Toxapex, but it's not as simple as clicking Psychic since giving Chansey a free entry to patch itself up, throw out rocks, etc. could also be a big weight on my ability to break the team later. While Psychic is the ideal move, it's not objectively the move I should make every time. With Dugtrio, once he has Lele trapped, there is next to nothing I can do to avert the KO if I'm not running a Shed Shell set. This may seem like an oversimplification of the scenario, which is very well might be, but it stems from a greater issue: The Dugtrio loser (EDIT: "user" but I laughed too hard to fix that typo after reading it back to myself) has to do significantly less prediction for Dugtrio to put in work for its team. Both sides in a game are capable of counterplay in creating or reacting to a scenario, and predicting how the opponent reacts is paramount to double switches. It takes prediction to create the scenario and then to capitalize on it, but Dugtrio requires significantly less risk for the latter. And the issue subsequently becomes the fact that playing against Dugtrio from team preview is something you can only try to do proactively. With Pheromosa, I aim to keep Toxapex or Marowak healthy so they're ready to react when she does come in and I need them, but there's next to nothing I can keep healthy to react to Dugtrio because switching is part of checking/reacting to it. My only counterplay is to minimize the use of his trapping targets to avoid creating opportunities for Dugtrio to trap them, at which point he's still accomplishing his job of keeping that mon out of the way as much as possible so it doesn't break the Stall core down.
Mons like Pheromosa and Tapu Lele do require planning and adapting to their presence, but the ability TO REACT to them when they attempt to do their work means it takes more for the opponent to know how to play them against you for them to contribute properly: their presence and practice performance are a fairly even split of their influence on the battle. Dugtrio is much more lopsided, because everyone already knows what he's there for and it's a matter of never letting a situation arise where he can do so. Dugtrio's presence/action ratio for influence leans much more heavily towards the former (I'd give it at least a 70:30 split if I had to assign numbers) since there's nothing to predict once he goes into action, if he has to at all.
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I'd like to respond to these with my ideas for why I say there is no counterplay and such:
1. This is entirely true, one can optimize sets for dugtrio in order to not be weak to it and this is an effective measure against dugtrio. However, this is effective ONLY against dugtrio.
When I'm prepping for greninja or specs mosa by adding SpDef celesteela or AV tang to my team, it not only prepares me against those special attacking monsters, but against all special attackers in the meta (except like char-y but you get the point).
When I prep for MMeta by using defensive MScizor, I'm also packing a powerful pivot with priority.
When I run shed shell on heatran to be able to switch out of duggy, I'm not running grassium-z, lefties, scarf, whatever item that has uses outside of that 1 situation, actively making this pokemon WORSE against every poke in the meta except dug (zone doesn't matter)
2. 'play better' is certainly a somewhat valid argument. It takes skill to get around/beat a dugtrio, especially to do so with one of the things it can trap. The uncompetitiveness comes from the imbalance of skill required. The dugtrio user doesn't need to be make any risky plays to revenge your char-x, but the char-x needs to be conscious of whether it has to chose not to get a KO so as not to be trapped by dug. Then you have to hard switch your CharX out, losing all momentum.
I just want to make clear that my attitude isn't 'there's nothing i can do against dugtrio,' it's that using dugtrio on stall is a no-brainer, and making use of it is not at all hard, whereas counterplay to it is very challenging and risky. The sub-optimal plays are like in my example above. People have said 'just don't get that KO with your dug-weak mon', but what that translates to in an actual game is 'just hand over momentum to your opponent 2-fold: 1 cause you're not getting the KO you could have and 2 cause you're hard switching out.' And the dugtrio user didn't even have to make a play to force this situation. They literally only had to have the mon on their team.
I disagree on the idea that using Dugtrio is a "no risk" proposition. If you are getting duggy in against zard-x at all, that generally means either A you lost a mon or B you made a very good prediction and swapped duggy in on a setup move of some sort. In the former, stall teams are often reliant on their entire team to function. If one of them falls, that leaves the rest of the team vulnerable to various sweepers and wallbreakers that said team member could of helped stop. Losing a mon is never a risk free proposition and is generally something that people do when they are in a "I need momentum now or I lose" situation. Picking which mon should die takes quite a bit of skill. In the latter, you're basically banking on being able to call the opponent's next move, and if you call incorrectly you probably just lost your zard-x check and thus the game.
While you can argue that the person playing against dugtrio needs to play smarter then the guy with dugtrio, that does not mean the guy with dugtrio doesn't need to play smart.
Describing it as "no brainer" or "no risk" is an exaggeration imo.
A better way to describe it is the significant imbalance in counterplay opportunity.
And actually stall or 3-mon defensive cores often still accomplish the goal of walling the rest of the offense team, even when 1 of those core mons fall.
Let's say the stallbreaker team has CharY and also uses shed shell magma storm heatran to get rid of Chansey.
Later in the game it looks like a semi-weakened m-sab will use recover next, so heatran switches in.
But m-sab user takes the riskier route and uses knock off, so now tran is in a tough situation.
It could take out m-sab so it's lesser teammates (in terms of breaking stall) could potentially SR and maybe wear down the stall team over 50-100 turns.
But then heatran will die to dugtrio, and CharY will have to deal with being walled by chansey.
In this situation, m-sab is dead, but so is tran.
And chansey + its core of 3 teammates will still wall
most team varients of char-y and its non-stallbreaking teammates.
Additionally often chansey will not need msab to help in walling the offense attacks, since other mons like skarm, pex, quag, and clef are enough for that,
so losing m-sab is far from the end of the stall winning strategy.
Not only did duggy kill the main stallbreaker heatran, but in doing so it also got rid of the main threat to the team's wall (chansey), that blocks the second best mon at breaking defense (char-y).
If heatran opts to switch out instead of kill m-sab, then duggy still has accomplished something in keeping m-sab alive and taking away the opportunity for the offense to take advantage of the situation.
Even applies to offense vs offense, but in general Duggy uncompetitively imbalances the game by being able to reverse a set-up opportunity by the opponent and still largely benefit its team after the dust clears.
This is why if i get reqs, I will vote ban
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Hello everyone.
There will be a Suspect Tour in 16 and a half hours from this post (4pm GMT-5 tomorrow). Please check post three for details.
The council is internally discussing the logistics of this suspect and we will post a conclusion in the very near future.
There will be a Suspect Tour in 16 and a half hours from this post (4pm GMT-5 tomorrow). Please check post three for details.
The council is internally discussing the logistics of this suspect and we will post a conclusion in the very near future.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
I ran shednija stall and yeah I would make predictions with dugtrio, most of my hard reads were with shuffling around shednija and getting people to toxic themselves with mega sableye.
Thing is if someone who clearly can't touch shed switches out I'm using baton pass the same turn and I get to react to their switch, making it a 100% chance I've trapped something or gone into their counter. That said shednija can't do anything and is like that new sea cucumber with awesome walling and slow passes.
Zapdos has volt switch and did the same thing, it's basically impossible for mega meta with switch in most of the time but that's mostly from the cores I have
Thing is if someone who clearly can't touch shed switches out I'm using baton pass the same turn and I get to react to their switch, making it a 100% chance I've trapped something or gone into their counter. That said shednija can't do anything and is like that new sea cucumber with awesome walling and slow passes.
Zapdos has volt switch and did the same thing, it's basically impossible for mega meta with switch in most of the time but that's mostly from the cores I have
Why the council is turning a blind eye to this mess?
A little emotional charge in this debate is healthy and to be expected, but the previous 9 pages contain absolutely no material consistent with the objective nature of our community nor with the principles behind our tiering policy framework. Frankly, there just isn't any evidence-based content available to enable potential voters to make an informed choice.
To be clear I do not think removing Dugtrio from the tier would be a mistake. However, abusing our policy tools and moving forward with this in current form will damage the credibility of the suspect process itself and make it harder to conduct responsible tests in the future. The short-term benefit of nerfing an undesirable stall archetype does not outweigh the aforementioned negative repercussions.
We need to have a credible council who can be trusted to look beyond the vitriol of the chat/forum and keep in mind the long term interests of the game. I state this harshly because I have seen some of these guys play and there is nothing unprofessional about their approach to the game. The same people doing damage calculations and performing all this teambuilding analysis simply do not just haphazardly abandon this rigor and demonstrable objectivity as soon as they leave the battle and enter the policy arena.
Overall Goal and Purpose of Tiering Policy:
...
III. To ensure that actions are taken with appropriate and complete justification. (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/)
A little emotional charge in this debate is healthy and to be expected, but the previous 9 pages contain absolutely no material consistent with the objective nature of our community nor with the principles behind our tiering policy framework. Frankly, there just isn't any evidence-based content available to enable potential voters to make an informed choice.
To be clear I do not think removing Dugtrio from the tier would be a mistake. However, abusing our policy tools and moving forward with this in current form will damage the credibility of the suspect process itself and make it harder to conduct responsible tests in the future. The short-term benefit of nerfing an undesirable stall archetype does not outweigh the aforementioned negative repercussions.
We need to have a credible council who can be trusted to look beyond the vitriol of the chat/forum and keep in mind the long term interests of the game. I state this harshly because I have seen some of these guys play and there is nothing unprofessional about their approach to the game. The same people doing damage calculations and performing all this teambuilding analysis simply do not just haphazardly abandon this rigor and demonstrable objectivity as soon as they leave the battle and enter the policy arena.
Overall Goal and Purpose of Tiering Policy:
...
III. To ensure that actions are taken with appropriate and complete justification. (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/)
Having been at least somewhat involved in OU suspect discussions for the past several years, I think you are heavily exaggerating how bad this thread is. While it is certainly true that there is some shitposting going on, it's not really any more then any other suspect and doesn't even come close to the most vitriolic suspect we've had on this site. Furthermore, there actually have been some very good posts on this thread with arguments backed up by high level replays on both sides, which is both surprising and very good for the suspect (they're usually rather one sided). A significant portion of the thread has been dedicated to understand what exactly Dugtrio can even do, as he is a fairly complicated little mon with multiple layers and isn't really comparable to anything we've suspected before (goth comes closest, but as discussed in this thread, even she's a pretty far cry from duggy). Part of making anything resembling an objective decision on whether or not Duggy is healthy for the tier is to have a strong understanding of what kind of support duggy can provide, what threats/teams he can enable, and what threats/teams he suppresses, and that's exactly what the past nine pages has been dedicated to doing.
![GH[O]ST](/forums/media/data/avatars/m/69/69331.jpg?1413405016){kind=avatar}
I'll preface this by saying that I believe dugtrio is anywhere close to being broken only when it's on a full blown stall team. Dugtrio on balance and offense is lackluster at best. The opportunity cost for balance running Dugtrio is simply too high - balance is hard pressed to afford dugtrio's lack of general offensive and defensive presence in this SM metagame loaded with threats. Offense doesnt give up as much by using Dugtrio, but again, there are better scarfers (vs scarf dugtrio) and better breakers (vs wall trapping dugtrio).
This brings us to the notorious dugtrio stall, which is presumably why we're even having this suspect test to begin with. Dugtrio's role on stall is obviously to trap and kill anything that threatens the defensive walls. If it can do this, it's virtually impossible to break stall.
The problems with targeting dugtrio in all of this is that
1) Dugtrio cannot do this all the time. The simple use of Shed Shell, flying, or ghost breakers render Dugtrio ineffective.
2) There are a wealth of other trappers that are almost as good dugtrio, if not better [against certain breakers]. If your main argument is that stall creates matchup problems with Dugtrio, you have to realize that you'll still have matchup problems without dugtrio but just with different breakers.
Stall is not as formidable as it is because of Dugtrio. Dugtrio is merely the cherry on top of stall. It is formidable because of the myriad of options it has to combat classic stall breaking tactics. Stall is able to throw curveball after curveball whether it's through different stall builds themselves or by plays of varying risk (stall has greater leeway in making higher risk plays, while non-stall player will have to play his win condition near flawlessly)
I know that the primary topic is about dugtrio, but I'm assuming that dugtrio is being targeted because the OU council claimed it is going to do something about stall (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stall-in-sm-ou.3593151/).
Stall succeeds because it has a combination of first class walls, clerics, and utility. Stall has so many options and the synergy is increased by magnitudes when they all support each other. While a trapper is necessary, Dugtrio is not inherently a problem.
That is why I'm voting do not ban. I feel like dugtrio is being made a scapegoat here.
This brings us to the notorious dugtrio stall, which is presumably why we're even having this suspect test to begin with. Dugtrio's role on stall is obviously to trap and kill anything that threatens the defensive walls. If it can do this, it's virtually impossible to break stall.
The problems with targeting dugtrio in all of this is that
1) Dugtrio cannot do this all the time. The simple use of Shed Shell, flying, or ghost breakers render Dugtrio ineffective.
2) There are a wealth of other trappers that are almost as good dugtrio, if not better [against certain breakers]. If your main argument is that stall creates matchup problems with Dugtrio, you have to realize that you'll still have matchup problems without dugtrio but just with different breakers.
Stall is not as formidable as it is because of Dugtrio. Dugtrio is merely the cherry on top of stall. It is formidable because of the myriad of options it has to combat classic stall breaking tactics. Stall is able to throw curveball after curveball whether it's through different stall builds themselves or by plays of varying risk (stall has greater leeway in making higher risk plays, while non-stall player will have to play his win condition near flawlessly)
I know that the primary topic is about dugtrio, but I'm assuming that dugtrio is being targeted because the OU council claimed it is going to do something about stall (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stall-in-sm-ou.3593151/).
Stall succeeds because it has a combination of first class walls, clerics, and utility. Stall has so many options and the synergy is increased by magnitudes when they all support each other. While a trapper is necessary, Dugtrio is not inherently a problem.
That is why I'm voting do not ban. I feel like dugtrio is being made a scapegoat here.
1) How many of these legitimately exist in the OU metagame? Shed Shell is legitimately crippling to run for more than a few of Dugtrio's target given the loss of power, the only notable Flying breakers I know in upper OU viability right now would SD Z-Move Landorus-T, Zard-Y, and Mega Pinsir, and the only viable OU Ghost breakers are Marowak-Alola and Gengar. On that list, the only thing standard Stall is not automatically not prepared for in some fashion is SD Lando-T. The Ghosts in question are both weak to Earthquake, so they're forced out even if it's not Pursuit Dugtrio, not to mention their Hazard vulnerability means being forced off the field vs a Stall team is still an issue. They also don't necessarily render Dugtrio inefficient in a broad sense, because if your Tapu Lele isn't running Specs or Twisted Spoon, it's significantly easier to Chansey to take hits from it, ergo it's less of a problem for your team because of Dugtrio's influence.
2) What other Trappers would these even be? Trapinch and Diglett are clear steps down at best and garbage substitutes at worst, while magnezone is an offense asset that has a very specific (but useful) list of trapping targets. With Diglett alone, the Speed tier difference risks a tie with Tapu Lele (and can't ever run Adamant) while missing out on everything between Base 95 and 120, which in this discussion alone includes Gengar and who knows how many Base 100 Boosters like Volcarona (who would fear SE Dugtrio). This one confuses me because this isn't even discussing Dugtrio's relative performance, because I can't even think of these other trappers he would legitimately compete with.
And as I've stated before, the major problem with Dugtrio is that he brings an absurd degree of reward to what is already Stall's MO with minimizing prediction's influence. Stall is already a playstyle designed to last as long as possible and thus reduce the impact of bad misplays over the course of the game at large. By extension, it's a playstyle designed to drag the games out until it gets the one good prediction that lets Dugtrio turn the game for them, whereas the opponent has to predict carefully every time to hold momentum, and if they get it wrong one time and let Dugtrio in that could very well be the game for them given that the increasing number of threats to watch for in OU puts a greater demand on each teammslot and makes it increasingly difficult to fit multiple slots dedicated to Stall breaking.
1) The loss of 20% power on one attacking move in exchange for the ability to cut through stall like a hot knife through butter is an excellent trade-off if you ask me. Are there any specific things that Lele fails to OHKO/2HKO without twisted spoon? Psychic/Psyshock hits like a truck already and Chansey still loses to Lele's Psyshock without Twisted Spoon thanks to Taunt. I don't agree with protesting the necessity of Shed Shell simply because it prevents one from further abusing Lele's psychic spam. Nobody complains that stall's Skarmory has to run Shed Shell over Leftovers either. I'm not going to bother bringing up specs lele because that's pretty damn shaky vs stall.
Gengar's and Marowak-Alola's Pursuit weakness are irrelevant to the Dugtrio discussion because Pursuit users that will take Dugtrio's place can beat them even worse. Once Dugtrio is gone, the ghosts, Lele, and even Lando T (thanks to weavile) will be susceptible against trappers.
2) The other trappers would be Alolan Muk, Weavile, Tyranitar, and yes even Diglett and perhaps even other things (pherhaps even Krookodile or ditto). Trappers don't have to rely on trapping abilities. Have you played the suspect ladder by any chance? Stall players are already successfully implementing other trappers. Many voters used stall to comfortably get reqs.
I don't think Dugtrio brings anything absurd to stall. Something like Toxapex or Chansey is far more important ot stall than Dugtrio.
- Unbelievable damage sponges that can take hits from even boosted offensive juggernauts and are virtually unphased by status (Chansey, Toxapex)
- Phenomenal hazard control in the form of a magic bounce user with ferrothorn defenses and 1 weakness, and Defog users who already had excellent synergy with stall mons.
- Unaware pokemon that can take most hits from setup sweepers aplomb
- Regenerator walls.
- The fact that there are multiple builds to choose from (and dont forget shedinja stall)
Trapping is necessary too obviously, but Dugtrio, by itself, is just a single trapper. I don't believing in banning something that is being scapegoated as the driving force behind stall.
Sabella vs Mael in SPL Week 5 (this week) shows something that I haven't seen discussion of: Eject Button.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250673
Mael used Eject Button Amoonguss to eat a hit from Greninja and then trap it with Dugtrio. This was seen last gen on Wonder Trio Stall with Eject Button Seismitoad. The key difference is that everyone playing against Wonder Trio Stall should know that's coming, but Sabella had no clue and it couldn't have been scouted for.
This begs the question: Can Dugtrio always be dealt with through counterplay? I think it can mostly, but it seems clear that Eject Button into Dugtrio is very hard to deal with and players can't exactly prep for it. It comes out of nowhere and beats their wincon, and since it can't be prepped for it therefore takes skill out of the game.
Also Destiny Device's game shows how Duggy Pursuit-traps A-Marowak, which otherwise would have plowed through everything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
So when GH[O]ST claims that Duggy doesn't bring anything absurd to stall, I'd argue it does; it invalidates breakers that are otherwise extremely viable and even gives stall a way to beat Alolan Marowak, which otherwise 6-0's stall. There are indeed multiple stall builds, and Dugtrio is a necessity on each and every one. Even when a Mega-Sableye -less stall team was built and found success, Dugtrio was still there. So much for the often-claimed requirement of Sab on stall; when there's a trapper, there's a way. Duggy doesn't even need Arena Trap for some mons, and that is very telling of how difficult it is to deal with.
Personally I think if Duggy goes then Pursuit-trapping stall (see Banded Weavile) will take its place, and that opens up a new can of worms. Regardless, I think Dugtrio is more toxic than any other trapper in OU.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250673
Mael used Eject Button Amoonguss to eat a hit from Greninja and then trap it with Dugtrio. This was seen last gen on Wonder Trio Stall with Eject Button Seismitoad. The key difference is that everyone playing against Wonder Trio Stall should know that's coming, but Sabella had no clue and it couldn't have been scouted for.
This begs the question: Can Dugtrio always be dealt with through counterplay? I think it can mostly, but it seems clear that Eject Button into Dugtrio is very hard to deal with and players can't exactly prep for it. It comes out of nowhere and beats their wincon, and since it can't be prepped for it therefore takes skill out of the game.
Also Destiny Device's game shows how Duggy Pursuit-traps A-Marowak, which otherwise would have plowed through everything.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-250787
So when GH[O]ST claims that Duggy doesn't bring anything absurd to stall, I'd argue it does; it invalidates breakers that are otherwise extremely viable and even gives stall a way to beat Alolan Marowak, which otherwise 6-0's stall. There are indeed multiple stall builds, and Dugtrio is a necessity on each and every one. Even when a Mega-Sableye -less stall team was built and found success, Dugtrio was still there. So much for the often-claimed requirement of Sab on stall; when there's a trapper, there's a way. Duggy doesn't even need Arena Trap for some mons, and that is very telling of how difficult it is to deal with.
Personally I think if Duggy goes then Pursuit-trapping stall (see Banded Weavile) will take its place, and that opens up a new can of worms. Regardless, I think Dugtrio is more toxic than any other trapper in OU.
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If Mael were running, scarfed Diglett instead of scarfed Dugtrio, then the same thing would've happened, just sayin.
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 132-156 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
I know that Dugtrio is obviously better than Diglett, but since we are discussing a single isolated example (Sabella vs Mael) here, the fact of the matter is that a Dugtrio ban would have been irrelevant since Diglett couldve achieved the same feat.
Fortunately, we don't base bans on single games. The fact that it worked on a balance team once in a tournament doesnt tell me anything. Much of SPL is about surprising your opponent. If Mael were able to abuse that technique on the ladder or in a best of 7 maybe I'd think a little differently.
Regarding Dugtrio vs Marrowak - something like Tyranitar or Weavile can also trap and kill Alolan Marrowak
And what you're saying about trapping is exactly what I'm saying - when there's a trapper there's a way. The only difference is that you seem to be ignoring the various other trappers available to stall.
Eject Button's use for trapping with Dugtrio has always been usable, and anyone playing against Wonder Trio Stall can attest to that. That's why I brought it up. It's been used on the ladder and in other tournaments to great success. Mael vs Sabella was simply a very recent, high-level game that showcased its use. Even if Sabella expected a mon to run Eject Button, how would that be prepared for? 5/6 mons in theory can hold it (all bar Dugtrio) and in practice it's less than that, but the fact remains that Sabella would not have known which mon had Eject Button until it was too late. There simply is no counterplay to this. It's no more than a guessing game that always ends in Mael's favor.
Sure, Diglett has plenty of cancerous potential, but Dugtrio is the subject here, and I believe we were asked not to bring up stuff like Diglett/Trapinch anymore. I dislike trapping in general (that's why I mentioned Pursuit also being an issue at the end) but Dugtrio is the worst offender and offers nothing to this tier; rather, it takes away skill.
I agree that problems will still arise if Dugtrio is banned. However, that isn't a valid argument for why Dugtrio should stay. If anything it's an argument for why there should be a suspect test for trapping (arena, pursuit, etc) as a whole, and we don't have a say in that since it's up to the OU tier leaders. Not to mention we can't bring it up in this thread.
Sure, Diglett has plenty of cancerous potential, but Dugtrio is the subject here, and I believe we were asked not to bring up stuff like Diglett/Trapinch anymore. I dislike trapping in general (that's why I mentioned Pursuit also being an issue at the end) but Dugtrio is the worst offender and offers nothing to this tier; rather, it takes away skill.
I agree that problems will still arise if Dugtrio is banned. However, that isn't a valid argument for why Dugtrio should stay. If anything it's an argument for why there should be a suspect test for trapping (arena, pursuit, etc) as a whole, and we don't have a say in that since it's up to the OU tier leaders. Not to mention we can't bring it up in this thread.
I know Eject Button has always been viable on stall builds. Mael didn't use stall though (which is why you could say that the Eject button tactic was unexpected in that match)
Fact of the matter is that Eject Button tactic on balance builds is pretty ass in most situations, which goes back to my position that Dugtrio on balance is mediocre. Sure it can work sometimes, especially when you have the opportunity to use the element of surprise like in SPL best of one matches, but let's not mistake that for being broken. The counterplay for Eject Button tactic on balance teams is to make sure you're not screwed if you lose a single mon to a shaky strategy that requires an important tank to use a highly situational item like Eject Button at the cost of vital leftovers/black sludge recovery. Hell if Sabella's Greninja used U-turn instead of Dark Pulse, he wouldve "won" that exchange since Mael's Eject Button would have been wasted and Sabella would have gained momentum. There's your counterplay.
My argument on why Dugtrio shouldnt be banned isnt predicated on the concept of trapping alone. I actually don't think the actual concept of trapping is broken to begin with.
1) 20% loss of power on Lele's primary STAB move seems like a big deal given Terrain makes that what it wants to spam. And that's in the case of Twistedspoon Lele. There's also Choice Specs for Lele, basically any item for Hoopa-U, and Heatran's Leftovers when going over a sort of "big three" among Dugtrio targets. You noted Specs being Shaky vs Stall yes, but the fact of the matter is that Dugtrio is the one singular factor that takes these options away from them. For the Skarmory comparison, I think it's important to note that the loss of Leftovers for Skarmory, while something to consider, has significantly less impact on its ability to perform its role compared to having to give up the item slot on a typical Dugtrio target, with HEatran needing that passive recovery in the long term without any reliable recovery while the other mons need the item to function viably against offense/balance or even in the Stall match up outright. Look at Hoopa-U. Dropping out of S-Rank is one thing, but this is a mon who fell all the way to the B Ranks this generation despite defensive teams not really gaining any new tools for it. Hell, it might have MORE options with Z-Snatch for +2 Speed as a late game cleaner, but the point here being that is a DRASTIC downturn for a mon who was banned for breaking defensive cores and those defensive cores not having gained much to trouble him in that role, and I can't attribute it to any factor besides Dugtrio.
2) Pursuit Trappers are certainly an option for Stall, but none of them singlehandedly exerts nearly the same degree of pressure on the metagame at large compared to what Dugtrio does. Trappers like Muk-Alola can Pursuit Tapu Lele and Hoopa-U, but it doesn't do remotely the same to Heatran, for example. Heatran switching out of Pursuit takes at most 43%, which is a decent chunk, but a far cry from Heatran essentially being dead once Dugtrio is on the field (Hell, Grassium-Z Heatran can 3HKO with Earth Power before being 3HKO'd in return by Knock Off). Lele and Hoopa take 60-70% max from Pursuit as well, which again is significant but at least means something has to precede it for Muk to get the kill outright. Tyranitar is playing a gamble as well, since Lele can chunk it for upwards of 66% with Moonblast in the Sand unless it's a defensive set. Stall is adapting other means to trap, but they don't perform on the same level as Dugtrio, hence why they're not in the same ball park as issues. Besides not threatening the entire list Dugtrio covers at once, they still have to make some kind of prediction decision when faced with their targets, as some of them can retaliate moderately well if they call the Pursuit. Dugtrio outright removes the opponent's choices, bad options or not, so he doesn't even have to gamble on the 10% of players who manage to switch out on you clicking a move besides Pursuit, or staying in to chip away at your Pursuit use before the mon is sacced, the latter scenario being a massive gamble if the Pursuit user is something less bulky like Weavile.
That last point is a big part of what makes Dugtrio such a dangerously effective trapper: He removes the ability to make choices in the first place once he's on the field, whether or not they're optimal/common choices. The prospect of escaping if any move besides Pursuit is clicked while not being trapped by anything besides Pursuit is a massive change right there. Dugtrio would not be NEARLY as dangerous if he could only trap you with one particular move.
Trapping as a base concept perhaps is not inherently broken, but the number of factors Dugtrio has going with it (speed, STAB EQ, near universal trapping, automatic rather than prediction based trapping like Pursuit) makes it unhealthy in how it performs at that job. Magnezone is a fair presence as an ability trapper because its trapping spread is much narrower, and it in theory gives something up in order to do so, in that one slot must be dedicated to HP Fire to beat Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, compared to Dugtrio who would run Earthquake no matter how its ability worked. Trapping may not be bad, but Dugtrio is too good at trapping for me to approve of what it brings to the current OU metagame.
The fall of Hoopa is not even close to being single handedly brought upon by Dugtrio. Last gen, Dugtrio could do the exact same thing to Hoopa. Calcs are done with 80 base Attack Duggy:
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 178-211 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
To proclaim Dugtrio as the one thing that turned an Ubers mon into a B+ mon is simply ignorant. Dugtrio makes things harder for Hoopa, yes but it doesn't hurt it so overwhelmingly, that's a complete exaggeration. Hoopa gained some new checks that make life harder for it, such as Magearna which switches in on it bar Fire Punch (Which is huge, by the way, considering Hoopa has about 0 counters). The power creep this gen was huge, and it caused the cost vs reward of using Hoopa to become much more balanced this gen. It faces competition now from Tapu Lele for a Psychic type nuker that matches up well vs stall. If Dugtrio completely invalidated it to the point of it being niche, then it would do a similar thing to mons such as Heatran. It would be much more obvious. And besides, how could it invalidate the Ubers mon if nothing changed in their 1v1 matchup between gens?
To play devil's advocate to your last question, Dugtrio being significantly more prominent/common on the teams Hoopa exceled against otherwise would have a significant impact on Hoopa in that regard even if the match up between the actual mons didn't change.
While Tapu Lele as competition (assuming it's not tried for Psychic Spam) and Magearna as a check certainly are notable changes, I was referring more to how massive the decline is, as it astounds me that Hoopa would drop to B+ as opposed to A or A- as he sat before. Moving past that, Dugtrio does hurt Hoopa significantly if he's going to be on the majority of high level stall teams, the playstyle Hoopa was best geared to take on. Hoopa's primary wins were vs defensive teams, compared to say Heatran being a much more flexible mon, so Stall having an easy countermeasure commonly employed hurts him much more than it does a more versatile mon. It's the reason I specifically noted Defensive teams lacking new tools for him, as Hoopa eats the one new tool they got with his neutral STAB
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 154-183 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
But more to the point, Hoopa was one example I bought up to show a big source of Dugtrio's impact. He actively punishes what should be a selling point against stall: Being difficult to switch into, because it essentially means Hoopa's best case scenario would be to KO a chosen Sac and then get trapped by the Moles, unless it runs Shed Shell which cuts into the power behind its Choice sets for an obvious reason.
Now that I finally got requirements, I am going to comment on Dugtrio, Stall, and where we go from here. This is going to be a really long post, so I will be putting it into sections in
tags. For those of you on the fence about what to vote for, I ask that you give this post a look as it might help.
Based off my experiences on the suspect ladder I can easily say that Stall is still strong and Dugtrio's removal isn't going to change that. Since the aim with Dugtrio's ban is to make stall less viable, I must therefore vote No Ban because the OU Council has absolutely failed to identify how to handle stall (option A: wait until we ban more broken things that will make building around it easier and until new megas drop, or option B.) ban defog and make this an offensive hazard based metagame where stall would be complete assplease don't do option B).
We have more important things to suspect, not a trash mon like Dugtrio. Learn to adapt to stall and let's get down to banning the real broken shit, ya?
First thing I wanted to discuss was this recent negative stigma against trapping abilities. See, trapping is actually very healthy for our metagame. Shocking, I know, but please allow me to explain the purpose of trapping and why it is healthy.
See, Switching is a vital part of our game. Without switching there wouldn't be much of a skill element in the metagame, and without this mechanic the game would simply break because you wouldn't be able to save things / etc. I shouldn't have to explain why Switching is important. However, what I DO need to explain is that if Switching goes unpoliced, it is actually very bad for the metagame.
Sometimes in stall, there is a point where the best play for both players is to double switch constantly, resulting in an Endless Battle of sorts. This is the direct result of one thing: Switching has no cost or risk in these situations. Neither player can punish the other for switching. Now in stall in SM OU, this can be attributed to two things:
a.) Defog + Magic Bounce together is easily able to keep Entry Hazards off the field, rendering them practically unavailable for most of the match.
b.) No Arena Trap / Shadow Tag / Pursuit user (keep in mind that in the Pursuit user's case, it oftentimes isn't strong enough to really stallbreak
In this example, if these stall teams had Dugtrio it would actually have been a healthy presence as Dugtrio can stallbreak and force each stall player to play skillfully around it.
However, this isn't the point I am trying to make right now. The point is this: trapping is part of many switch-punishing mechanics in Pokémon, the others being:
a.) Entry Hazards
b.) Trapping-Moves (Pursuit, Anchor Shot, Spirit Shackle, etc.)
c.) Trapping Abilities (Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull)
Other things help switches (U-Turn, Volt-Switch) and all of these things keep Switching balanced and keep it from causing Endless Battles or being overpowered in general. Punishing switches is a good thing, and this is why trapping is a healthy force in our metagame.
It's not just healthy because it stops Endless Battles from occurring, but it is healthy in general to punish your opponent from switching, and trapping as a mechanic is a good one. (Some trapping ability users like Gothitelle are broken, but others like Magnezone and Diglett are not.)
See, Switching is a vital part of our game. Without switching there wouldn't be much of a skill element in the metagame, and without this mechanic the game would simply break because you wouldn't be able to save things / etc. I shouldn't have to explain why Switching is important. However, what I DO need to explain is that if Switching goes unpoliced, it is actually very bad for the metagame.
Sometimes in stall, there is a point where the best play for both players is to double switch constantly, resulting in an Endless Battle of sorts. This is the direct result of one thing: Switching has no cost or risk in these situations. Neither player can punish the other for switching. Now in stall in SM OU, this can be attributed to two things:
a.) Defog + Magic Bounce together is easily able to keep Entry Hazards off the field, rendering them practically unavailable for most of the match.
b.) No Arena Trap / Shadow Tag / Pursuit user (keep in mind that in the Pursuit user's case, it oftentimes isn't strong enough to really stallbreak
In this example, if these stall teams had Dugtrio it would actually have been a healthy presence as Dugtrio can stallbreak and force each stall player to play skillfully around it.
However, this isn't the point I am trying to make right now. The point is this: trapping is part of many switch-punishing mechanics in Pokémon, the others being:
a.) Entry Hazards
b.) Trapping-Moves (Pursuit, Anchor Shot, Spirit Shackle, etc.)
c.) Trapping Abilities (Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull)
Other things help switches (U-Turn, Volt-Switch) and all of these things keep Switching balanced and keep it from causing Endless Battles or being overpowered in general. Punishing switches is a good thing, and this is why trapping is a healthy force in our metagame.
It's not just healthy because it stops Endless Battles from occurring, but it is healthy in general to punish your opponent from switching, and trapping as a mechanic is a good one. (Some trapping ability users like Gothitelle are broken, but others like Magnezone and Diglett are not.)
People feel stall is too strong. The reason behind this is that Dugtrio can supposedly trap enough wallbreakers to where stall is too consistent and hard to prepare for.
However, Dugtrio is not the problem.
Dugtrio stall has existed for a long time. In BW2 OU, there was this one rain team: Politoed, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Tornadus-Therian, Genesect, Dugtrio. It had a very consistent win ratio, and Dugtrio put a lot of work in for this team: trapped Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Excadrill, etc. that really helped the team shine. But Dugtrio was obviously not the issue with this team; it's trapping abilities only helped the broken parts of Tornadus-Therian and Genesect shine. Once they were banned, Dugtrio Rain Stall wasn't not nearly as much of a force to be reckoned with.
In XY and ORAS OU, Dugtrio was not the broken component to these stall teams. Dugtrio has done the same thing every generation: helps other broken Pokémon shine.
In my earnest opinion, I do not think stall is as strong as many people claim. With the introduction to Z moves, virtually any garbage pokemon you want (hello Mismagius, Chandelure, Hoopa-C) can become a valid and strong stallbreaker. Z-Moves allow balance and offensive teams to put up rocks against stall teams even easier than before, which is crucial for Dugtrio Shedinja etc. to truly be threatening.
However, if we must ban something, I do not think it is Dugtrio.
What really holds Dugtrio together on stall is the use of Magic Bounce + Defog together.
Many of us have deduced that Mega-Sableye is not broken in OU and is more pressured than ever to keep hazards off the field. By this logical conclusion, the broken component to stall would actually be the unthinkable: Defog.
Think about it: Defog holds stall teams together and keeps them from being punished by hazards. Without it, they would be forced to use spinners such as in BW OU, but spinners in this metagame are just downright awful, and offense could easily adapt to it with some ghost types, and it will always be inferior to Defog.
Read: I do not think we should ban Defog at all, but if I was forced to ban something for stall, that is what I think is truly holding it together.
What I do believe in, however, is waiting.
See, stall only appears to be strong right now because of a reduced threat-list and exploitable S- tier Pokémon. All three of the current S- tier Pokémon struggle more with stall than any other playstyle, making stall a consistent way of stopping people spamming Metagross, Ash-Greninja, and Z-Move Landorus. With the sheer number of usage these Pokémon get, it is no wonder that stall feels powerful: it's a pretty anti-metagame strategy in and of itself!
However, it doesn't stop there. Stall is only as strong as it because not all the megas have been released yet. Once things like Diancie, Mega-Mawhille, Mega Beedril, etc. are released they will make stall more difficult to use. (Mega Mawhile can actually live EQ from Dugtrio and Play Rought + Sucker Punch back, +2 Knock Off can 2HKO Toxapex, etc.) I don't mean to say that all the Megas are going to be relevant, but I truly believe that getting Medicham Heracorss Gardevoir are going to make combating stall a hell of a lot easier.
And the final problem: too many broken Pokémon limit balance / offensive building. Offense and Balance alike have so many broken threats to prepare for that it sometimes feels like they do not have enough space to combat stall. This isn't stall's fault, but the presence of other broken pokemon. Through banning these threats there will be more freedom to combat stall, making stall less consistent.
However, Dugtrio is not the problem.
Dugtrio stall has existed for a long time. In BW2 OU, there was this one rain team: Politoed, Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, Tornadus-Therian, Genesect, Dugtrio. It had a very consistent win ratio, and Dugtrio put a lot of work in for this team: trapped Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Excadrill, etc. that really helped the team shine. But Dugtrio was obviously not the issue with this team; it's trapping abilities only helped the broken parts of Tornadus-Therian and Genesect shine. Once they were banned, Dugtrio Rain Stall wasn't not nearly as much of a force to be reckoned with.
In XY and ORAS OU, Dugtrio was not the broken component to these stall teams. Dugtrio has done the same thing every generation: helps other broken Pokémon shine.
In my earnest opinion, I do not think stall is as strong as many people claim. With the introduction to Z moves, virtually any garbage pokemon you want (hello Mismagius, Chandelure, Hoopa-C) can become a valid and strong stallbreaker. Z-Moves allow balance and offensive teams to put up rocks against stall teams even easier than before, which is crucial for Dugtrio Shedinja etc. to truly be threatening.
However, if we must ban something, I do not think it is Dugtrio.
What really holds Dugtrio together on stall is the use of Magic Bounce + Defog together.
Many of us have deduced that Mega-Sableye is not broken in OU and is more pressured than ever to keep hazards off the field. By this logical conclusion, the broken component to stall would actually be the unthinkable: Defog.
Think about it: Defog holds stall teams together and keeps them from being punished by hazards. Without it, they would be forced to use spinners such as in BW OU, but spinners in this metagame are just downright awful, and offense could easily adapt to it with some ghost types, and it will always be inferior to Defog.
Read: I do not think we should ban Defog at all, but if I was forced to ban something for stall, that is what I think is truly holding it together.
What I do believe in, however, is waiting.
See, stall only appears to be strong right now because of a reduced threat-list and exploitable S- tier Pokémon. All three of the current S- tier Pokémon struggle more with stall than any other playstyle, making stall a consistent way of stopping people spamming Metagross, Ash-Greninja, and Z-Move Landorus. With the sheer number of usage these Pokémon get, it is no wonder that stall feels powerful: it's a pretty anti-metagame strategy in and of itself!
However, it doesn't stop there. Stall is only as strong as it because not all the megas have been released yet. Once things like Diancie, Mega-Mawhille, Mega Beedril, etc. are released they will make stall more difficult to use. (Mega Mawhile can actually live EQ from Dugtrio and Play Rought + Sucker Punch back, +2 Knock Off can 2HKO Toxapex, etc.) I don't mean to say that all the Megas are going to be relevant, but I truly believe that getting Medicham Heracorss Gardevoir are going to make combating stall a hell of a lot easier.
And the final problem: too many broken Pokémon limit balance / offensive building. Offense and Balance alike have so many broken threats to prepare for that it sometimes feels like they do not have enough space to combat stall. This isn't stall's fault, but the presence of other broken pokemon. Through banning these threats there will be more freedom to combat stall, making stall less consistent.
As many of you have noticed, stall is still out there, and it is still strong.
Dugtrio's removal has done nothing except make stall v stall Endless Battles occur (and let's be real, Dugtrio is certainly healthy in stall v stall). Pursuit users like Muk are very effective for multiple reasons: good against Hoopa, and Poison Touch as a 20% chance of ruining any stall wincond. Stall is finding ways around Dugtrio and many people have been using it to achieve requirements.
I'd say that Dugtrio leaving caused some people to think that stall was bad, and so they started running more BP aids since no Skarmory to Whirlwind them... is this the meta y'all want lmao.
I'd say Dugtrio had some healthy presence in making things like Hoopa used less because Hoopa is a Pokémon that is more difficult for balance to face than stall simply because ??? wtf set is it ??? So many games lost to Hoopa pretending to be locked into Dark Pulse only to click Fire Punch on Scizor.
I'm not saying that Dugtrio is being kept to check the broken (it certainly isn't) but I feel like it's impact isn't an unhealthy one. It keeps things stabilize imo, and I haven't really seen this post-Dugtrio ladder to be any different than the Dugtrio one. If we are banning Dugtrio because it is going to weaken stall, I'd say the OU council failed miserably: stall is still strong, and we are short one mon that is really valuable to the tier's health.
If banning Dugtrio doesn't weaken stall than there is no reason to ban this thing. I am embarrassed this is even being suspect over Metagross, Ash Greninja, or Pheromosa, to be frank. All three of these Pokémon are highly restricting low-ceiling skill floor Pokémon that can muscle past through literally 2/3 of the tier, and yet we're suspecting Dugtrio? What gives? Can y'all really not adjust to Dugtrio Stall when there are like several million new tools SM introduced that wipe the floor with stall?
Dugtrio's removal has done nothing except make stall v stall Endless Battles occur (and let's be real, Dugtrio is certainly healthy in stall v stall). Pursuit users like Muk are very effective for multiple reasons: good against Hoopa, and Poison Touch as a 20% chance of ruining any stall wincond. Stall is finding ways around Dugtrio and many people have been using it to achieve requirements.
I'd say that Dugtrio leaving caused some people to think that stall was bad, and so they started running more BP aids since no Skarmory to Whirlwind them... is this the meta y'all want lmao.
I'd say Dugtrio had some healthy presence in making things like Hoopa used less because Hoopa is a Pokémon that is more difficult for balance to face than stall simply because ??? wtf set is it ??? So many games lost to Hoopa pretending to be locked into Dark Pulse only to click Fire Punch on Scizor.
I'm not saying that Dugtrio is being kept to check the broken (it certainly isn't) but I feel like it's impact isn't an unhealthy one. It keeps things stabilize imo, and I haven't really seen this post-Dugtrio ladder to be any different than the Dugtrio one. If we are banning Dugtrio because it is going to weaken stall, I'd say the OU council failed miserably: stall is still strong, and we are short one mon that is really valuable to the tier's health.
If banning Dugtrio doesn't weaken stall than there is no reason to ban this thing. I am embarrassed this is even being suspect over Metagross, Ash Greninja, or Pheromosa, to be frank. All three of these Pokémon are highly restricting low-ceiling skill floor Pokémon that can muscle past through literally 2/3 of the tier, and yet we're suspecting Dugtrio? What gives? Can y'all really not adjust to Dugtrio Stall when there are like several million new tools SM introduced that wipe the floor with stall?
Based off my experiences on the suspect ladder I can easily say that Stall is still strong and Dugtrio's removal isn't going to change that. Since the aim with Dugtrio's ban is to make stall less viable, I must therefore vote No Ban because the OU Council has absolutely failed to identify how to handle stall (option A: wait until we ban more broken things that will make building around it easier and until new megas drop, or option B.) ban defog and make this an offensive hazard based metagame where stall would be complete ass
We have more important things to suspect, not a trash mon like Dugtrio. Learn to adapt to stall and let's get down to banning the real broken shit, ya?
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Pretty much says it all. Common Stall builds have a ton of trouble with so much because of the addition of Z moves. There are so many more threats to cover this gen; Stall is 100% not unbeatable, and I think a tier full of mindless, spammy offensive teams isn't healthy or fun at all. Just because you can't bring one of those teams shouldn't be grounds for a ban. Just learn that there are multiple types of teams that you must prepare for. Seriously, I don't understand why we can't just demand competitive players prepare for non-offensive threats.
This is purely subjective. To be honest a metagame without breakers is more less fun and more less healthy to play with.
I don't get people who say that diglett and trapinch are substitutes for dugtrio. Diglett has half as many base attack and trapinch is slow as hell. At best they can trap only one mon. Dugtrio can effectively trap mons and much more of them.
Also, dugtrio is not only good with stall. Dugtrio can be used on offense as well, though it obviously works best on still it can still be used on offensive. I've used an offensive dugtrio team with memento to help set up another mon and help sweep and break teams and it's basically a free set up because they are trapped an are at -2, in addition to hazard(including webs, spikes, and t-spikes) support this strategy can be very successful.
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