1. The moderators of this forum are bludz, Celticpride, TDK, Finchinator, Gary, and Subject 18.
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  3. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Gary, Dec 24, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Gary

    Gary Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,581
    [​IMG]
    (Banner made by HotFuzzBall)
    *Credit to PK Gaming for OP*

    Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

    The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.


    • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Toxapex can be can also be ranked in A tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.
    Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

    Ranking Team:

    We are alphabetical just like the mons.

    SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the online Pokedex. Also, each Pokemon will have a link to its individual analysis for detailed information. Just click on their names to be taken to their respective analysis. http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon


    Sets viability thread can be found in this link below for discussion of which sets are more viable than others in the meta.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-sets-viability-rankings.3592113/

    SM OU Ranking Tier List

    (In alphabetical order)

    S Rank:

    S Rank
    [​IMG] Landorus-T
    [​IMG] Toxapex

    A Rank:

    A+ Rank
    [​IMG] Celesteela
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    [​IMG] Greninja-Ash
    [​IMG] Heatran
    [​IMG] Magearna
    [​IMG] Tapu Koko
    [​IMG] Tapu Lele

    A Rank

    [​IMG] Clefable
    [​IMG] Diancie (Mega)
    [​IMG] Greninja
    [​IMG] Kartana
    [​IMG] Kyurem-B
    [​IMG] Latios
    [​IMG] Mawile (Mega)
    [​IMG] Scizor (Mega)
    [​IMG] Tapu Bulu
    [​IMG] Tyranitar
    [​IMG] Volcarona
    [​IMG] Zygarde

    A- Rank
    [​IMG] Chansey
    [​IMG] Hoopa-U
    [​IMG] Keldeo
    [​IMG] Lopunny (Mega)
    [​IMG] Magnezone
    [​IMG] Mew
    [​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Pinsir (Mega)
    [​IMG] Sableye (Mega)
    [​IMG] Tangrowth
    [​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega)
    [​IMG] Venusaur (Mega)
    [​IMG] Zapdos

    B Rank:

    B+ Rank
    [​IMG] Alakazam (Mega)
    [​IMG] Charizard (Mega X)
    [​IMG] Garchomp
    [​IMG] Gengar
    [​IMG] Latias (Mega)
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG] Medicham (Mega)
    [​IMG] Swampert (Mega)
    [​IMG] Weavile

    B Rank
    [​IMG] Alomomola
    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    [​IMG] Excadrill
    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Gyarados
    [​IMG] Hawlucha
    [​IMG] Heracross (Mega)
    [​IMG]Kingdra
    [​IMG] Latias
    [​IMG] Manaphy
    [​IMG] Reuniclus
    [​IMG] Rotom-W
    [​IMG] Skarmory
    [​IMG] Suicune
    [​IMG] Tapu Fini

    B- Rank
    [​IMG]Charizard (Mega Y)
    [​IMG] Gallade (Mega)
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega)
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Mimikyu
    [​IMG] Quagsire
    [​IMG] Jirachi
    [​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Terrakion
    [​IMG] Tornadus-T
    [​IMG] Victini

    C Rank:

    C+ Rank

    [​IMG] Azumarill
    [​IMG] Bisharp
    [​IMG] Camerupt (Mega)
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Dragonite
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    [​IMG] Latios (Mega)
    [​IMG] Manectric (Mega)
    [​IMG] Marowak-Alola
    [​IMG] Nihilego
    [​IMG] Ninetales-Alola
    [​IMG] Shuckle
    [​IMG] Slowbro (Mega)
    [​IMG] Thundurus
    [​IMG] Volcanion

    C Rank
    [​IMG] Alakazam
    [​IMG] Altaria (Mega)
    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Crawdaunt
    [​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Garchomp (Mega)
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Muk-Alola
    [​IMG] Nidoking
    [​IMG] Salamence
    [​IMG] Sharpedo (Mega)
    [​IMG] Thundurus-T
    [​IMG] Uxie

    C- Rank

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl (Mega)
    [​IMG] Azelf
    [​IMG] Cofagrigus
    [​IMG] Gardevoir (Mega)
    [​IMG] Porygon-Z
    [​IMG] Scolipede
    [​IMG] Slowbro
    [​IMG] Talonflame


    Rules - Now updated 5/17/2017
    • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
    • No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do. This specifically includes making joke nominations about other users.
    • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
    • When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.
    • Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
    • Pokemon that are OU simply by usage do not guarantee them a spot in the rankings
    • When new Pokemon/Mega Stones are released, please hold off on discussing their ranking placement for at least a week to avoid theorymoning
    • Failure to follow these rules after multiple warnings will result in an infraction or possibly worse
    • POST REPLAYS FOR NOMINATIONS FROM UNRANKED TO RANKED OR YOUR POST WILL BE DELETED!!!
    Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these pokemon will be deleted.

    • Mega Beedrill (this is never coming off)
    • Porygon-Z

    Happy posting[​IMG]
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  2. Gary

    Gary Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,581
    Reserved
    Mq, Ads20000, Shurtugal and 8 others like this.
  3. Gary

    Gary Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,581
    Alright guys keep in mind that the lower rankings are incomplete and we will be creating them over time as the meta develops, so only focus on the ranks that we currently have. We wanted to get this out ASAP so people would have something to reference for the upcoming SPL tour, without completely butchering the lower ranks which is why we left them blank for now.

    We also realize that certain Pokemon are missing that could very well be in the upper ranks (Mew, Hydreigon, or Crawdaunt for example) but we haven't found the right placement for them yet. You are allowed to nominate them if you feel they deserve to be ranked somewhere atm.

    Merry Christmas!

    Also welcome Subject 18 to the ranking team!
  4. TDK

    TDK
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion
    OU Leader

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2013
    Messages:
    870
    Hi everyone, please keep in mind the rankings are initial rankings and mostly for convenience and as a resource; for the first little bit, most likely until early January, the thread will be closed. We will open this thread up and run it like normal later on. I hope everyone is able to wait patiently, please do not PM the ranking team about minor things like placements of Pokemon, but feel free if there's something more important.

    In the meantime, feel more than free to join the OU Discord and discuss with everyone in real time in the #ou_vr channel!

    Thanks and have a happy holidays all

    [​IMG]
  5. bludz

    bludz a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    1,671
    There's been another addition to the ranking team. Please welcome ABR as our newest member!
  6. Subject 18

    Subject 18
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,343
    Hi everyone. Just posting some changes that being made the ranking.

    Pokemon that dropped in rank.

    - [​IMG] Buzzwole A+ -> A
    - [​IMG] Pheromosa A+ -> A
    - [​IMG] Mega Alakazam A -> A-
    - [​IMG] Kartana A- -> B+
    - [​IMG] Toxapex A- -> B+
    - [​IMG] Porgyon-Z B+ -> B
    - [​IMG] Suicune B+ -> B
    - [​IMG] Starmie B+ -> B

    Reason for drops (open)

    • Buzzwole is good but we originally overrated it. It doesn't have nearly the same sort of presence in the meta as Landorus-T, Mega Metagross, or Ash-Greninja.
    • Pheromosa also went down to A, as doesn't really hold up in terms of effectiveness as other Pokemon do. While it's still a threat, being a big threat on paper doesn't always mean it is as big a threat in practice.
    • Mega Alakazam still a powerful Pokemon and one of the better Megas in the tier at the moment. However, the meta has adapted pretty well to it and it's effectiveness has dropped and thus his ranking as well.
    • Kartana while boasting a really high attacking stat, it often fails to actually break through teams or even sweep as one would expect of something with an attacking stat like this.
    • Toxapex drops because while it does wall a lot of things, it doesn't really do much else. It's really passive and can be taken advantage of because of this.
    • Porygon-Z's only use in OU has been Z-Conversion. While it sounds threatening on paper, it's not much of a threat in practice. Despite having boosted all of its stats to +1, it rarely sweeps.
    • Suicune was once a big threat in ORAS, however in SM, in faces more issues with Calm Mind sets. Those issues being Electric and Misty Terrain, nerfs to Scald, and Haze Toxapex/Mantine, with these being around Suicune isn't able to sweep teams like it did.
    • Lastly, Starmie drops because it is outclassed as an offensive water. Everything that Life Orb Starmie does Ash-Greninja and Greninja do better, and bulky sets are just passive the current meta and are liable to be abused by the Genesect and Hoopa-U for example.



    Pokemon that rose in rank.

    - [​IMG] Magearna A -> A+
    - [​IMG] Mega Sableye B+ -> A-
    - [​IMG] Magnezone B+ -> A-
    - [​IMG] Tapu Koko A -> A+
    - [​IMG] Tyranitar B+ -> A-
    - [​IMG] Weavile B+ -> A-

    Reasoning (open)

    • Magearna has emerged as a really strong pokemon for it's ability to check Tapu Lele, Greninja, Ash-Greninja, Latios and more. It's AV set makes it one of the bulkiest pivots in the game while still boasting enough power to heavily dent teams.
    • Mega-Sableye has not changed one bit from ORAS OU. It continues to be really effective at being the cornerstone for stall and semi-stall teams, this was enough for us to move it up to.
    • Magnezone still does a great job in trapping steel types such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn. The level of support it provides for teams it enough to earn it a spot in A-.
    • Tyranitar is being criminally underrated right now. Choice band Ttar continues to be one of the hardest hitters in the game and along with it's ability to trap Latias, Latios and Tapu Lele makes it a big enough threat to be placed in A-.
    • Tapu Koko is just amazing right now. The Zap Plate U-Turn set is proving to be its best set at the moment and deserves to move up above Tapu Fini and Bulu.
    • Lastly, Weavile moves up due to it not changing too much from what it did in ORAS.


    Keep in mind that these are still Preliminary, and there's no need to Outrage and complain over a certain Pokemon's ranking. The meta is still developing and a lot hasn't been figured out. With SPL coming up all of these concerns will be addressed and C ranks will be added as well.

    Thanks and see you all in the next update.
    Mq, Aaronboyer, Dayaiok and 59 others like this.
  7. Gary

    Gary Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,581
    MASSIVE UPDATE

    All the lower rankings from B- to D rank have been added. Some of them are still a bit messy, but for the most part they should be decently accurate so feel free to comment on them if you want. On top of that, we've also made the following changes:

    [​IMG] A+ ---> S
    [​IMG] A ---> A+
    [​IMG] A ---> A+
    [​IMG] B ---> B+
    [​IMG] [​IMG] Unranked ---> B
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] B+ ---> B
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]B ---> B-
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] B ---> C+

    Most of the Pokemon that were kicked out of the B ranks were shifted due to the creation of the lower ranks, not necessarily because of a massive change in viability or anything. They just happen to fit better there. Hopefully the B ranks in general look a lot better.

    As for Landorus-T going to S, I think it's pretty obvious. It's pretty much just as splashable as it was in ORAS, and with the addition of Z moves, its offensive sets are so much scarier to face, because now it's able to dispatch many of its former checks and counters. Its classic Rocky Helmet defensive set is still as good as ever, as well as some of its other sets such as Scarf or Double Dance. It's arguably the best Rocker in the tier, an amazing pivot that fits on practically every team, and a huge offensive threat that is very difficult to prep for. It's once again an extremely influential Pokemon that deserves a spot at the top.

    Protean Greninja was moved up to A+ because of how anti-meta it is at the moment. The classic Life Orb 4 attacks set is so difficult to prep for outside of dedicated special walls (Chansey), and with Ash Greninja being very popular, many teams that carry Tapu Fini, Toxapex, and Mega Venusaur, are all slaughtered by Gunk Shot or Extrasensory respectively. It can also fit onto many offensive teams as a great Spiker that beats pretty much every relevant hazard remover in the tier with its coverage. It's definitely on par with Ash Greninja in the current metagame. Tapu Fini has risen far beyond many of our expectations, and has proven to be one of the most splashable Pokemon in the metagame. Its typing, bulk, and utility provides so much for teams, and because of this it it fits on pretty much any kind of team, even offensive ones. It's one of the few dependable hazard removers in the tier that pairs well with so many Pokemon such as Zard-Y, Mega Pinsir, and Volcarona, and with its typing/bulk it can blanket check a large portion of the metagame. Its Speed tier is also fantastic for a support Pokemon too, so it can even function as a stallbreaker with Taunt + Natures Madness, which helps offset its subpar offenses and keeps it from being passive, as it can take 50% off of whatever wants to come in on it. All in all, it's a top meta pick that deserves a spot in the high ranks.

    And that's pretty much it. Have fun posting!
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
    jdcomix, Ghost Cream, Mq and 36 others like this.
  8. nameless90

    nameless90

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2015
    Messages:
    797
    Rotom-H in D rank seems really an harsh judgement to me.
    I think that the microwave oven deserves at least C rank despite its SR weakness, due to the newfound resistances to:
    (1) Bug (somebody mentioned all the U-turner around?)
    (2) Electric (Tapu Koko is a force to be reckoned with, and also having checks to Electric Terrain users is valuable)
    (3) Grass (Tapu Bulu and Grass Terrain, bulky Grass-types)
    (4) Fairy (i.e. the Tapus bar Tapu Fini; the Pixilate Hyper Voice nerf helps to tank more hits)
    Not to mention that Overheat has the sheer power to wear down annoying Steel types, bar Heatran, which are very popular in higher ranks.

    Thousand Arrows hurts its viability, that's why C rank and not more considering the opportunity cost to not run Rotom-Wash. Consider also that the only two Thousand Arrows users has to compete for a teamslot with Garchomp (which has the same typing) and Landorus-T (which shares the 4x weakness to Ice).


    Mega Garchomp seems a waste of a teamslot to me with the new Spe mechanic and the additional bulk gain when megaevolving isn't that great. If you want a bulky dragon, use Garchomp with i.e. AV or directly 50% Zygarde or Landorus-T as a replacement. The opportunity cost seems too great to justify its use ===> D rank for me.


    Bruxish in OU (despite being only D rank) makes no sense for me. This thing is outclassed even by regular Sharpedo if we are talking about Tough Claws. Dazzling on this fish makes no sense because it is neutral or resistant to all priority moves bar Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch (nerfed this generation); still, this fish isn't bulky or strong offensively or fast.
    Bruxish should be removed entirely.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  9. Cassa97

    Cassa97

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Messages:
    21
    Those resistances hardly matter for the most part. Max attack Bulus Horn leech does around 25% to it, Choice banded around 37%. Scarf Pheromosas U-turn does a bit above 10% to you, but forces you to switch out afterwards since they will go into something that threatens you, and HJK shreds you. Tapu Koko pivots out likewise and forces you to take rocks damage, while Tbolt does a good chunk to you. I am not even gonna calc tapu lele since it prolly just 1hko's after rocks with psychic and does a shitton with moonlbast as well. Rotom-H attempts to be a pivot but fails due to no good recovery outside of lefties and the occasional pain split you might get off, while being weak to stealth rocks forces you to have supreme hazard control. And even then it doesn't really take the stuff it should on that well.

    252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 70-83 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 248-292 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 105-123 (34.6 - 40.5%) -- 60.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 45-54 (14.8 - 17.8%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Zap Plate Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 101-119 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- 16.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    tmacbalanced likes this.
  10. nameless90

    nameless90

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2015
    Messages:
    797
    Rotom-H has WoW at its disposal (and this is a huuuuge lure move) and burn is still a great status to spam despite the burn nerf. Also, Rotom-H (I'm considering the UU defensive set) can even do this:
    0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    Even with 168 EVs in Spe with neutral nature, Rotom outspeeds Jolly Tapu Bulu with 252 Spe EVs. You are using the CB set with an Adamant nature, so every form of Rotom can easily outspeed you with less EVs.
    Rotom-H has to fear only CBanded Stone Edge, easily remedied by a WoW, because it tanks grass moves pretty well ====> this is a huge perk over Rotom-W, which is murdered by Horn Leech STABbed and boosted by Grass Terrain.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 420-494 (138.6 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    You lose Rotom and your opponent recharge of energy his Tapu Bulu.​

    -2 0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 314-372 (110.9 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    Rotom-H can easily tank an hit and retaliate back; Rotom-H has the SR weakness despite its counterpart, but it doesn't chance much.
    252 SpA Zap Plate Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 202-238 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​
    The difference between a solid 2HKO in the case of the washing machine and a 3HKO at best on the microwave oven is pretty huge and you still 2HKO Tapu Koko, but you save your pokemon assuming 1vs1.
    0 SpA Rotom-Heat Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 186-219 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Zap Plate Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 101-119 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- 16.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (66.1+33.3=99,4 % HP, so it is a 2HKO with little prior damage and with 90% accuracy instead of 85% from Hydro Pump)


    ===> This seems nice enough to warrant a C rank for the microwave oven, which need SR gone as every Fire type not named Heatran. You can have Spikes, Toxic Spikes and even Sticky Web on your side, but not SR; stop. This is not required "supreme hazard control".
    Also, Rotom-H has a better defensive synergy with many bulky Waters than Rotom-W (i.e. with Toxapex), mainly because it doesn't stack annoying weakness to Grass and Electric.
    Djokra and Rotten Seagull like this.
  11. Cassa97

    Cassa97

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Messages:
    21
    We aren't talking about situations where those mons are actually staying in, because they aren't. We are talking about those mons hitting on the Switch and afterwards U-turning/switching out. Rotom-h is a defensive Pivot and wants to come in on the mons it is supposed to check, which it can't do reliably, since it is worn down way too much by u-turn/volt swich + rocks and the occasional attack. LO-Pheromosa even has a chance to kill you after Rocks, so you cant come in at all but can only revenge kill. The rocks weakness changes worlds for something that is supposed to come in, take a hit and volt switch out to bring in a frail attacker like pheromosa and whatnot. Rotom-W works because it doesnt have a rocks weakness and threatens volt switch blockers with pump.
    tmacbalanced and Soothing Deoxys like this.
  12. Dartrix - Joker

    Dartrix - Joker

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    I've been excited for this thread to open, and there are a couple of things I want to comment on.


    upload_2017-1-8_10-15-22.png D -> Unranked: I have no idea what this Pokemon even does. I've faced it maybe once closer to the bottom of the ladder in OU. Its poor stats don't speak much for it, and if its niche is being immune to priority, Tsareena is much better for that, and with Tapu Lele running around with its Psychic Terrain it's kind of pointless. The only thing I can think of this is that Lando-T, Mega Venusaur, and Heatran can't switch in on it, but then it gets walled by Celesteela, Tangrowth, Tapu Fini, etc.

    upload_2017-1-8_10-18-0.png A- -> B+: This confused me to when the viability rankings were first put out. This is a great Choice Banded user, but that's about it. Its poor bulk and mediocre 100 base attack hurts it a lot, even though it has a great speed tier and an amazing move in Thousand Arrows. It is very vulnerable to priority, and it has a completely useless ability. It looks much more at home in B+ with Keldeo, Gengar, and Kyurem-B. The ever so common Lando-T, Mega Venusaur, Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, and Buzzwole all give this thing a lot of trouble.

    upload_2017-1-8_10-21-2.png C -> C-: There is honestly no reason to use this thing. The change to mega evolution this generation somehow made this thing even more worse than regular Garchomp. With all the fairies and bulky steels running around in the metagame, Mega Garchomp has no place on a team. On top of that, it takes up your Mega slot, and it faces competition from Zygarde, Zydoge, and Garchomp as a Dragon/Ground type.
    ZardY3, Mq, volx757 and 2 others like this.
  13. Sergeant Spooky

    Sergeant Spooky

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,040
    If Torkoal is C-, wouldn't it make sense put Venusaur in there next it? Unless I'm missing something, I don't know why you'd use Torkoal without a chlorophyll user in OU.
    DragonAscent likes this.
  14. yuukafu

    yuukafu

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
    Messages:
    23
    i find it strange that you feel like talking about it then. You might want to look at this:

    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Bruxish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mantine: 135-160 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    For comparision...

    252+ Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mantine: 100-118 (52 - 61.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    What this Pokemon does is that it has the ability strong jaw and psychic fangs. So it effectively has a no-drawback 130BP move on which you also get STAB with coverage options such as Crunch, Ice fang, Aqua Jet and waterfall
    Dirkhann likes this.
  15. Giagantic

    Giagantic A floccinaucinihilipilification sesquipedalian by nature
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2014
    Messages:
    368
    You are missing some decent performing Pokemon but the one that is missing from the whole thread that really gets me is...
    [​IMG]
    Alomomola

    Ability: Regenerator

    HP: 165
    Attack:75
    Defense:80
    Sp. Atk:40
    Sp. Def:45
    Speed:65


    Alomomola
    > Deals with physical threats like Mega-Metagross, Buzzwole, Pheromosa (outside of those QD sets / Other special focused sets), and so on...
    > Pairs well with AV Magearna as not only does it handle physical threats that would normally kill Magearna but also heals the inevitable chip damage due to Wish passing massive amounts of Health
    >is able to run Rocky helm to punish U-Turning Pheromosa's and many other Physical threats or runs Lefties

    Rank wise I am not too sure where you would place it and its placement is in all honesty irrelevant to me but to not have it represented on the viability thread is totally not fair nor proper as it has some clear niches that separate it from the likes of other bulky waters popular nowadays such as Tapu Fini, Suicune, etc...

    Below are some calc's

    Show Hide

    252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 192-228 (35.9 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 142-168 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- 14.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 263-309 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    ^ Somewhat risky but also somewhat not, if you take high jump kick on switch-in there is still plenty of leeway to outplay the player as pretty much all Alomomola run Protect meaning it can't just spam HJK + Lefties Recovery / Rocky Helm massively change the calc and how you play...

    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 239-282 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Buzzwole Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 214-253 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 414-487 (77.5 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is under Psychic Terrain and is just an illustration not that you should be letting your physical check do this unless forced to...)
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
    Mq, jacksoras, Gatorboy and 34 others like this.
  16. WebBowser

    WebBowser

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2013
    Messages:
    824
    Type: Null Unranked -> C Rank

    I think Type: Null deserves some mention as a slow bulky pivot and para spreader. At 95/95/95 defenses with eviolite, he's actually bulkier then Porygon 2 and his U-Turn ensures that he's not a total momentum sap on your team. His slowness is actually an advantage because it means that his U-Turn will almost always bring in a mon for free, which is really valuable on volt-turn teams. In fact at min speed you can even underspeed most paralyzed mons, allowing you to paralyze then click u-turn without having to worry about your swap in having to take a hit. I haven't figured out the ideal stat spread yet, but here's some random calcs I've dug up...

    252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Type: Null: 140-165 (35.5 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 255-302 (64.7 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 294-346 (74.6 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Type: Null: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Like I said, these EVs could probably be optimized, but anything that can live a super effective hit from Hoopa-U and not completely sap momentum is worth a look in my book. The fact that it can provide utility to your team with thunder wave is a nice little bonus too for slower teams.
    Jayde likes this.
  17. Dartrix - Joker

    Dartrix - Joker

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    Hmm, I see now. I still don't think it has enough of a niche to justify putting it on an OU team when there are other better Pokemon with no drawback powerful Psychic stabs in the tier like Tapu Lele and Mega Metagross. There's also a much better Strong Jaw Pokemon in Mega Sharpedo. Should still go unranked imo.
    ZardY3, acidphoenix, LuckyRyu and 2 others like this.
  18. Ema Skye

    Ema Skye

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    133
    Might be a bit early for this suggestion, but I'd like to propose Magearna moves from A+ to S rank.

    The Assault Vest set is capable of countering virtually every threatening special attacker in the tier aside from Tapu Koko (Thunderbolt does around 45% so its risky), Charizard-Y and Heatran (for obvious reasons). It keeps Ash-Greninja from transforming and it actually counters every possible moveset for Protean Greninja. Tapu Lele can't beat it with anything, and the suspect test showed how important it is to have a way to beat Lele. Furthermore, with access to Volt Switch, it's essentially the special variant of Landorus-T and the two work incredibly well together. Honestly, this set is so effective in the metagame that I feel Magearna warrants A+ just for it.

    But S-rank requires a degree of flexibility, and Magearna also boasts that. The Shift Gear set is an incredibly potent special attacker that can quickly snowball into something uncontrollable. After a Shift Gear, it outspeeds everything up to and including Scarf Garchomp, which really limits the available switch-ins. Furthermore, thanks to Soul Heart, getting a KO further rewards you with a Special Attack raise, and very few things want to switch into a +1 Magearna. This set is so effective at cleaning weakened teams, as they allow Magearna to quickly collect Soul Heart boosts, and with the Steelium Z Corkscrew Crash, it's pretty much guaranteed to activate. Again, I feel a Landorus-T comparison is adequate here, as this set is very similar to the SD+Fly-Z set. The best part is that your opponent has no idea which Magearna set it is. Expecting the Assault Vest set then leads to them giving you a free opportunity to set up your Shift Gear, which basically halts all momentum your opponent had. Add in a lack of weaknesses to any priority attack and the result is a very scary sweeper. This is what I believe pushes Magearna over the A+ rank and into S, and I think it has more in common with Landorus-T than it does with the Pokémon in A+.
    Mq, ZardY3, Massey9276 and 15 others like this.
  19. p2

    p2 big ting
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,599
    love it when the threads already on a downhill decline thanks to guys that just theorymon

    why do you find it necessary to immediately talk about the low ranks nobody cares about, the vr team clearly doesn't give much a shit about it since pure garbage like wishiwashi / crabominable / dhelmise etc are all there (not trying to call them out), why not focus on the actual important mons in the meta and not the super niche shit nobody uses

    fwiw i have no real opinion in this so far since most of the higher ranks are solid but alolan wak needs to drop like a rock, it is absolutely not a- material lol
    Muscle K, Za Meowdo, Mq and 45 others like this.
  20. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    436
    I understand what you mean, but the goal of this is to create a thread to where new players can take good Pokemon to use, and having those Pokemon in D rank will have new players saying "Wishiwashi is great, it's on the viability thread," you know what I mean?
  21. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    3,776
    If this is your idea of a viable bulky TWave + U-turn momentum gainer, you should probably look a bit harder. In your case, Thunder Wave + Volt Switch Magearna pretty much accomplishes all your roles in checking Magearna and Hoopa-U while simultaneously deterring the DD sweepers you intend to keep out with Null, not to mention Rotom-W can also pull off a similiar set while dealing with the rest. I haven't even gone into Null's fundamental issues in its complete lack of (reliable) recovery, resistances, and offensive presence, which I'm pretty sure are the last things VoltTurn wants in a bulky pivot. Even if you want to argue that U-turn is unblockable unlike Volt Switch, Magearna and Rotom-W have the offensive presence to deter most Volt Switch absorbers (and most things in general), have the resistances/immunities to switch in far better on the mons your team has problems with, and while their recovery isn't reliable, at least it's existent (both have access to Leftovers and Pain Split). Even Jirachi learns TWave + U-turn, and it has access to moves like Stealth Rock, Serene Grace Iron Head, and Wish / Healing Wish.

    Mons intended to blanket check the meta have never worked well; that's why some of the notable Scarfers in the tier are things like Lando-T, Tapu Lele, Jirachi, even Pheromosa etc., and not something like Ditto.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
    Linkin Karp and AccidentalGreed like this.
  22. Plain Spit

    Plain Spit

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2015
    Messages:
    10
    sd baton pass shedinja isnt even a legal set. Also with the introduction of z moves, shedinja is the only mon that can use endure to burn off your z power. I think C- sounds right.
    EuSouAFazenda likes this.
  23. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    436
    I see your reasoning, I still think it should be unranked but I think D rank sounds nice with what you've said. Yes, it burns off Z-power, but attacking z moves aren't that common. And yeah you are right, SD Baton Pass doesn't exist, thanks for that. Also, I'm not sure about Endure Shedinja...

    That's not enough of reasoning to make it A-. I agree with p2 in the sense that it has plenty of checks and counters, and is too slow to hit them back. Yes, it has some SpDef, but it can't really take hits from even defensive Landorus-T and such. Alolan Marowak is very cool, but it needs something like B rank.
    maoerfei likes this.
  24. Ema Skye

    Ema Skye

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    133
    Shedinja is ranked for its stall viability, not for anything on offense. Wonder Guard gives it a niche stall build that can be surprisingly effective.
  25. Gary

    Gary Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,581
    Except it's in D rank which means it has a very small niche outside of very specific teams aka TR, so people shouldn't be seeing it as "great". It's fine in D rank.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 6)