Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[drakylon]

I don't think Tangrowth should rise. I don't use it so I only speak from the experience of facing it and theorymonning, but offensively it's pretty nonthreatening. Grass is not a great STAB and if you don't invest in its offensive stats, which I'm assuming most people don't, its 2x se coverage isn't going to have a lot of oomph.

Defensively it obviously depends on the set, but AV Tang is 2HKOed by mega Gross's mash after sr, Greninjas gunk shot, leles psychic, max atk garchomps outrage after sr.

The phys def set turns some of those 2hkos into 3hkos but then leaves it vulnerable due to its low sp def. regenerator alleviates this a lot and it does have leech seed and sleep powder, but it's weak and doesn't have hazards or hazard removal or good boosting options so I don't know how much it does for a team other than take hits and scout the opponent.

A lot of the offensive mons ranked above and alongside it have ways to break through it depending on set except like dugtrio, zygarde, and keldeo.

I think it should drop tbh.

Tangrowth's role isn't to be a blanket check across the entire metagame. No one is expecting Tangrowth to take attacks that are specifically geared to break walls, or strong super-effective STABs. It switches in on and checks a specific pool of threats while not sacrificing all momentum against those threats, and it does this role fairly well. Even with minimal Defense investment, it can sponge resisted attacks for days, and weak non-STAB Ice-type attacks won't do significant damage to it. And its offenses aren't shabby, either, and with base 100/110 Attack/Special Attack respectively it does what needs to be done offensively. No one's expecting it to be a wallbreaker, or even have any offensive threat to them. Rather, it can deal significant damage to the offensive and defensive threats it checks -- in accordance to its role of being a pivot for balanced teams. Remember that most offensive 'mons have limited to no recovery (and many even have recoil on every attack from Life Orb), meaning any chip damage dealt to them is important for later clean-up. It does what it's geared to do extremely well, and that I think at least warrants its current position, if not a higher one.

 

[NewfieDude]

Can someone tell me why Zygarde is higher then Garchomp? Isn't it basically a worse slower Garchomp? Why is it A+?

 

[vso]

Can someone tell me why Zygarde is higher then Garchomp? Isn't it basically a worse slower Garchomp? Why is it A+?

It gets Thousand Arrows , has more spdef and get ExtremeSpeed. Thousand arrows massively helps all sets(can run mono attack). All of this helps sitrus and getting Thousand Arrows and more spdef helps sub coil toxic.

To prevent my post from being a useless one-liner, I agree with Zapdos -->A. A couple of things that it got were that 3 attacks and Agility Electrium Z Zapdos just got created. This makes a set thats not defog. Another thing that it got was the drop of Mega Venusaur and rise of Tangrowth.Zapdos also gets benefitted by the Pinsir-Mega and Flyinium Z Gyarados' rise, and it has been deserving a rise for some time.

The Three attacks set allows Zapdos to hit Ferrothorn,Mega Scizor, Landorus-T, and Zygarde all at the same time. DIscharge is a great spammable move against anything that isnt ground or electric having a 30% chance of Paralysis.

It is way better than Bisharp, Tyranitar, and Weavile which are some B+ ranked Pokemon.

 

[Martin]

Can someone tell me why Zygarde is higher then Garchomp? Isn't it basically a worse slower Garchomp? Why is it A+?

Because Zygarde isn't "basically a worse slower Garchomp" and because it never was a "worse slower Garchomp". Last gen the comparison was banal because they functioned totally differently, this gen it is still kinda iffy at best due to the two still functioning extremely differently.

Thousand Arrows makes Zygarde's choice of Ground-type STAB much harder to switch in on consistently, nailing Skarmory, Celesteela etc. which would otherwise switch in on Garchomp's Ground-type STAB with ease. It is also a more spammable move due to this, allowing sets like Choice Band to thrive, and it's significantly better bulk and access to Coil and Dragon Dance allows it to completely dismantle certain archetypes consistently whilst punishing iffy building. It's versatile, and the attributes that it brings to the table are just that little bit more favorable in the current metagame.

 

[ericaroselia]

Can someone tell me why Zygarde is higher then Garchomp? Isn't it basically a worse slower Garchomp? Why is it A+?

I guess you are used to Zygarde being that bad/mediocre poke in ORAS so: Thousand Arrows made it MUCH better than it was in gen 6 since that move is ultra spammable as ground immunities are not immunities anymore, that changed the whole viability of that mon and it's very bulky + has access to alot of cool moves that Garchomp doesn't have such as DD, Coil and Extreme Speed.

 

[Toshiro46]

Zygarde is high because Ground is an amazing STAB to have if you don't have to worry about flying-type and levitate immunities. The only resists in the S and A Tiers are Pheromosa, Tangrowth, Mega-Pinsir, and Bulu. Phero isn't gonna be taking any boosted hits or switching in, and Pinsir doesn't particularly want to do that either. Tang is one of the best defensive answers to Zygarde but can also be complete set up bait, and Bulu isn't that relevant anymore. Ground hits a lot neutrally and super effectively. Bug and Grass are the only types that resist it, and neither are that prominent in the meta, and when they are they're often paired with Poison (which is hit SE by ground), or just stupidly weak anyway (Pheromosa).

 

[GlassVeins]

Hey, I think he gets the idea lol
So this isn't just a one-liner, I don't see why Gliscor shouldn't move down a rank to B- Landorous generally outclasses it in the ground/flying area, and since people are preparing as much as possible for landorous, they're generally prepared for Gliscor too. It still does okay as a stallbreaker, but tbh I would rather have Hoopa-u's immediate power. Of course, I could be missing something major here, so correct me if i'm way off the mark.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Usually I'd ask this in the metagame thread, but seeing how that's down for the time being, I was wondering how people have been using Zapdos lately. Especially seeing as it's gotten quite a few noms, do people run a physdef or spdef set? When I did try running it in ORAS it always seemed underwhelming. Obviously it's a different meta and a lot of top ranked mons can't switch into its coverage, but I wanted to hear people who actually have used it (since I wanted to try it out in SM).

This is my first post in OU resource thread and I stopped by, because Zapdos was one of my favorite Defogger last Gen, and I still see some considerably high viability this generation as well.

This is entirely based on my personal opinion so please take into account about what do you find acceptable:

* Zapdos is one of the Defoggers that can threaten certain hazard setters, namely Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Neither of them can stay in to take Thunderbolt / Volt Switch or Heat Wave.

* Zapdos also is one of the best checks for Mega Scizor (not sure if it still is this gen but), because it resists both STAB moves and can keep Mega Scizor from Defogging and force it out with Heat Wave, and this is very devastating especially if Scizor is the only available hazard remover in the opposing team. Maybe physically defensive sets will help taking hits better against Scizor?

* From last gen, Zapdos was a primary check to Mega Pinsir and Tornadus-T thanks to its virtue of typing. Also, while it could not switch into Stone Edge (which never hits, lets be honest), it could also check Landorus-T with HP Ice, and this has some chance to OHKO it (or relatively high chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock if I remember correctly). These traits forced Zapdos to run physically defensive sets to nail them with appropriate coverage moves, or to consistently switch into and check them.

* This generation, I believe Zapdos is arguably decent check to Kartana and Tapu Bulu (although Skarmory checks Kartana better and Tapu Bulu can use Stone Edge to threaten Zapdos), and Zapdos will have to invest physically defensive as well in this case, in order to spam Discharge to cause paralysis, retaliate with coverage moves, or to at least survive a hit and remove hazards for the team.

...
so I have been most people running physically defensive Zapdos sets, and I think it suits better in physically defensive set as well. I might be wrong, but I can at least tell physically defensive set has decent viability even if specially defensive sets turn out to be more common.

I would not nominate Zapdos for anything since I think it is good where it is, and I don't have any appropriate replays to post.

I hope I answered your question with some relevance.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

So, Mega Pidgeot has just been released. Perfectly accurate Hurricanes are just as good as ever - with accuracy out of the equation, it's super spammable as nothing's immune to it and it has a 30% chance to confuse, possibly screwing over a would be check. Right now, I'd say it's mono attacker stallbreaker set's the best:

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Work Up
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Refresh

Work Up lets you hit incredibly hard, Hurricane is the STAB, Roost keeps you healthy, Refresh cures your status. Pair it with Magnezone to trap and kill Celesteela, and Choice Band Tyranitar to smash Zapdos, Heatran and opposing Tyranitar. It's not just good for crushing stall either - it can also be a good cleaner late game. Here's a replay where it puts in the work. I nominate B- / C+ Rank

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-553769622

 

[Gary]

These Pokemon literally just came out. Just like Mega Mawile and Beedrill, there is no point in nominating them for a rank this early. Not like it really matters anyway considering that both of these mons are very niche but w/e. But regardless, it takes more than a few hours to accurately rank any Pokemon, so please refrain from doing so for at least a week if possible.

 

[MFJK]

for C+ Rank

I nominate Zygarde 10% for C+ Rank because it's outclassed in every points, mostly by its brother Zygarde 50%. The only niche of Zygarde 10% is its Choice Band, which is often outclassed by CB Zygarde 50%. The only reason to use it over Zygarde 50% is its speed which isn't even that great. It's still outsped by many important threats like Greninja and Tapu Koko, and we'll often prefer Zygarde 50%'s bulk which allows it to kill those threats more easily than Zygarde 10%. Zygarde 10%'s poor bulk also makes it really hard to switch-in without a slow pivot (it can be 2HKOed by Volcarona's Fire Blast after Rocks !). Also, some other fast Dragons like Garchomp can do what Zygarde 10% does, but better. For example, Firium Z/Rockium Z SD Garchomp can beat Skarmory and Celesteela and even better than Zygarde 10% because it directly hits them so hard with a Rock/Fire Z Move. The fact that it's not choice locked give it more occasions to pressure the opponent. However, the fact that it outspeeds 110 Speed like M-Metagross and it's so spammable STAB give it a niche. That's why I think it could be C+ Rank.

 

[Toshiro46]

This generation, I believe Zapdos is arguably decent check to Kartana and Tapu Bulu (although Skarmory checks Kartana better and Tapu Bulu can use Stone Edge to threaten Zapdos), and Zapdos will have to invest physically defensive as well in this case, in order to spam Discharge to cause paralysis, retaliate with coverage moves, or to at least survive a hit and remove hazards for the team.

Honestly, Zapdos is a far better Kartana check (I'd even go so far as to say almost a counter) than Skarm is, because Skarm takes neutral damage from Sacred Sword. A +2 All-Out Pummeling from Kartana does 83-98%, which means if Skarm has taken any chip or there's SR on the field, it's probably going to go down. And if it hasn't, well Sturdy means it wasn't going to be OHKOed anyway, and regular sacred sword is a guaranteed kill after AOP. Skarm's only method of doing damage is counter (which isn't a super often carried move and if it's taken prior damage is useless) or brave bird, which doesn't do much. The only other thing it can do is whirlwind, and Kartana will still put it in range of being rkilled by whatever comes in.Meanwhile, +2 AOP does 51-60% to Zapdos and so Kartana barely has any chance to 2HKO it, while Heat Wave is an emphatic OHKO.

Kartana can break Skarm with a boost but has much more trouble doing the same with Zapdos. Assuming SD on the switch, Zapdos wins almost every time, even after SR (unless maybe heat wave misses).

 

[obii]

idk if zap should raise but i wanna give my thoughts on why i think its really good atm. i think i was the first person to use the 3 atk roost set at least in a tournament setting (spl week 6) and i gotta say its pretty incredible. what i found in test games is that back when the dual ground / steel / fini offenses were really popular, the best way of dealing w zap was going to the ground type and hoping you dont get burned by heat wave. using hp ice over defog eliminated this possibility. elec / fire coverage is nice but when you add hp ice to the mix zapdos becomes kind of like manectric which excelled vs offense in gen6 because the only things that could sponge its attacks were naturally bulky mons like clefable.

offense doesnt really use clefable anymore besides that rare mgross greninja clef offense so zapdos has an insane match up vs these kind of teams. the best switch in is probably heatran and even that risks discharge paras. you can even use volt switch > discharge if you have a duggy on the team. if you go thru the teams used in spl, the majority of them have trouble killing zapdos and trouble switching into it as well. in regards to bulkier teams that have like clefable, amoonguss, etc pressure helps annoy those guys to death so if played correctly you still win in the long run. clefables pretty much dont use calm mind and are often rocks 2 atk or twave so you can pp stall their attacks out if necessary. the biggest annoyance is knock off i guess since losing leftovers limits zapdos a lot.

btw, i honestly think offensive zapdos sets and even defog sets are a waste of time. the agility electrium i guess has surprise factor going for it but whats the point when you can just use roost 3 attacks lol. you win still it just takes longer and you have a hard to ko mon on your team whereas dropping roost (and leftovers) just takes away from the whole point of using zap. i think thundurus-t fills that role better. i guess defog is ok but that means you gotta drop hp ice or heat wave both of which have huge consequences.

but yeah, to summarize zapdos is amazing due to its great match up vs offense and utility vs bulky teams bc of pressure + being hard to ko

 

[Dussky]

So, Mega Pidgeot has just been released. Perfectly accurate Hurricanes are just as good as ever - with accuracy out of the equation, it's super spammable as nothing's immune to it and it has a 30% chance to confuse, possibly screwing over a would be check. Right now, I'd say it's mono attacker stallbreaker set's the best:

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Work Up
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Refresh

Work Up lets you hit incredibly hard, Hurricane is the STAB, Roost keeps you healthy, Refresh cures your status. Pair it with Magnezone to trap and kill Celesteela, and Choice Band Tyranitar to smash Zapdos, Heatran and opposing Tyranitar. It's not just good for crushing stall either - it can also be a good cleaner late game. Here's a replay where it puts in the work. I nominate B- / C+ Rank

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-553769622

As hot as that is, it requires a LOT of support to pull off. In my opinion, Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-Turn and Roost is perfectly fine on the mon. But I wouldn't really give it a rank yet, sure it fires off 100% accurate base 135 Hurricanes but it'll get shadowed by Torn-T again.

 

[Leo]

I think M-Pidgeot's niche will still be its Stallbreaker set. Its Roost 3 Attacks set is pretty mediocre when you can literally use Tornadus and only miss the accuracy imo. Its Stallbreaker set on the other side can be a real pain for fat teams and its great Speed tier+high Base Power STAB doesn't give it a bad Offense match-up unlike some other dedicated Stallbreakers

 

[Toshiro46]

As hot as that is, it requires a LOT of support to pull off. In my opinion, Hurricane, Heat Wave, U-Turn and Roost is perfectly fine on the mon. But I wouldn't really give it a rank yet, sure it fires off 100% accurate base 135 Hurricanes but it'll get shadowed by Torn-T again.

I think Pidgeot could find a niche as a really good partner for A Gren and volt turn teams in general; it's mainly walled by rock types, and A-Gren hits pretty much all of those as hard as you could want. Meanwhile, it plows through bulky grasses that give A-Gren trouble and takes bug hits that can dent Gren. Add an electric resistance/immunity to them and you've got a nice core... I'm thinking Koko, because that hits any Waters that can take hits from the other two and makes a really nice, fast as hell volt turn core.

 

[Kurona]

I think a good niche for Pidgeot is not being discussed until it's had time to adjust to the metagame so we can actually find a proper rank for it instead of theorymoning, like we've been asked multiple times.

 

[blank]

These Pokemon literally just came out. Just like Mega Mawile and Beedrill, there is no point in nominating them for a rank this early. Not like it really matters anyway considering that both of these mons are very niche but w/e. But regardless, it takes more than a few hours to accurately rank any Pokemon, so please refrain from doing so for at least a week if possible.

 

[Gary]

Guys the same rules apply for these mons as Mawile and Beedrill. I have no issues with discussion involving them, as long as you aren't trying to nom them for any specific rank. Any other kind of discussion involving them is fine as long as it has some sort of purpose.

 

[Toshiro46]

So Mega-Steelix is gonna be worthless. If you wanted an offensive ground/steel, excadrill exists, and if you wanted a physical wall, Regular Steelix would work almost as well, or close enough that it doesn't make much difference.

Also it has no reliable recovery lol.

Also as it goes, 2/3 of the S-tier mons (Phero and Lando) deal SE damage to it with their STAB and 2HKO it on the physical side (Phero OHKOes it with focus blast). A-Gren isn't kinder with hydro pump, even before transformation. Its only possible niche would be walling the three big megas - Scizor, Gross, Mawile - but even then they do decent chip to it and have plenty of options to switch out to. No sustain hurts.

A shitmon tbh and not worthy of any more discussion.

 

[UltraBallz]

Pidgeot to me just seems so outclassed by torn-t mostly due to the fact it doesn't take up your mega slot and on top of that torn can either hit harder with orb or be a much better pivot with AV. Both have a similar move pool except torn is able to run knock off for added utility.

Also, I want to mention that I feel the idea of running mono attack pidgeot is just really bad. especially with all of the good steel types around not running heat wave makes no sense. from S through A- rank 8 mons resist flying and out of those 6 take super effective damage from heat wave; the coverage is just too good.

 

[lordoftets]

Pidgeot's weaker Hurricanes are compensated for by its perfect accuracy, and Tornadus' AV sets aren't relevant because pivoting isn't Pidgeot's (hypothetical) niche

Sorry for the one-liner, but I don't have replays to prove or disprove Mega Pidgeot's relevance.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Mega Pidgeot' advantage over Tornadus is that it can spam any of its moves freely, plus it doesn't have to switch out to heal since it has Roost. If only it had Focus Blast, Blizzard and Sing...

 

[Scribble]

Got a couple noms in the B ranks, should hopefully provide some discussion not about Mega Pidgeot.

B+ -> B: Salamence had a lot of hype after its Flyinium Z set was discovered, and it was pretty good, but it's fallen off as of late. It's easily handled by common fat mons in the tier, particularly Lando-T which is on 50% of teams, Celesteela, Skarmory, Ferrothorn after you burn the Z move, etc. On top of that, Salamence requires lots of support when placed on a team. It's weak to Stealth Rock, so it needs hazard control if it wants any hope of sweeping. It also pretty much needs Magnezone in order to be effective, or some way to lure in/weaken Steels so Salamence can clean up. It also takes up your Z move slot, which could be used on a more worthwhile mon like Volcarona, Lando-T, or Gyarados. Speaking of Gyarados, it's Salamence's main competition as a Moxie snowballer. Gyarados and Salamence I feel are definitely not on the same power level, but Gyarados is better. Gyarados' better defensive typing, Water STAB, bulk, and ability to break through Steels is valued a lot more than Salamence's perks such as a higher Speed stat. That higher Speed stat is kind of meaningless though, since every relevant Scarfer in the tier is faster than Base 100 Speed and can revenge +1 Salamence easily. Salamence's SPL record is also very...shaky. For a B+ mon it has only been brought 4 times as of the Semi Finals, and it has only one 2 of them. It's not a large sample size, but the fact that the sample size is that small to begin with should be an indicator that Salamence just isn't worth running that often. All in all, Salamence is a lot worse now, and having it in the same rank as Gyarados feels wrong. It makes more sense to drop Salamence than raise Gyarados, however, since Gyarados has some issues too, but Salamence's are imo much larger and exploitable.

B -> B-/C+: Yeah, Buzzwole isn't that great. It just...doesn't do enough to warrant its B ranking. I don't think it's worthless. I think a well played Buzzwole can be pretty annoying to deal with and can be decently effective, and it seems better than most of the C ranks, but Buzzwole is just...meh. It's been brought 3 times in SPL, and it has won a grand total of none of them. It has some positive traits like being able to handle Zygarde effectively, but its benefits are far outweighed by its cons. Talk of a Buzzwole drop has happened before and there isn't much else to say. If you look at the upper ranks, many Pokemon listed give Buzzwole a headache such as Mega Metagross, Tapu Lele, Greninja, Tapu Koko, Volcarona, etc. The meta is not in favor of it at all thanks to most of the top tier Pokemon murdering Buzzwole with ease, and B- or even C+ would be a better fit for it.

B -> C+: I completely support this nomination. Zydog is honestly really bad, it's been brought 3 times to SPL and only won one of them. It's bulk is non existent, it's ability is worthless, it's weak without a Choice Band. In fact, that's its only viable set, Choice Band...which is completely outclassed by its 50% counterpart. Having Zydog two entire ranks from Zygarde (in A+) seems fair. Zygarde outclasses it in every way except for its Speed (Which isn't even that amazing since Greninja, Dugtrio, and Tapu Koko all outspeed it). It isn't the worst Pokemon in the world and it can have success in OU, but it's extremely niche, and that's what C ranks are for.

B- -> C+?: This has got a question mark because I'm a bit confused as to what this mon does to warrant its B- ranking that it isn't grossly outclassed by. If it's a more specially defensive Calm Mind user, there's Tapu Lele, Keldeo, and Tapu Fini. If it's a fat Regenerator pivot, there's Tangrowth (side note: this thing's win rate increased by ~3% after the semi finals, so more food for thought for a rise), Toxapex, and Slowbro. I've personally never fought against this thing on the ladder, nor have I ever used it. It hasn't been brought to any SM OU match in SPL so it doesn't have any results from there either. Can someone rationalize it to me? I don't recall this being mentioned anywhere in the thread, and if it was I didn't see it. This mon just seems really outclassed to me, and a mon this outclassed shouldn't be listed in B-. If this really can't be rationalized to reasonably give an explanation for a B- ranking and not in the niche C ranks, then that should be an indication for a drop.


Also whatever happened to Thundurus-T? There was a lot of talk about a possible rise and a lot of support for it to at least get out of C and into C+, but it was never risen nor given an explanation as to why it didn't rise and discussion dropped. Could we get a statement about that if possible?

 

[Ema Skye]

I wouldn't say Zygarde 10% is totally outclassed by 50%. The speed tier is crucial, as it avoids Lele speed ties and outspeeds Metagross, Gengar and the Charizards. C+ seems too harsh, and I think it's fine in B.