Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Can we please talk about how stupid Pheromosa still is? It seems like everyone thinks it's now only okay or maybe everyone's gotten used to it's ridiculousness or whatever, but I still think she's way too hard to deal with for offensive teams. Like, on literally every team I make I have to make sure I pack a hard check to it otherwise I just get curb-stomped every single time and there's nothing I can do, and sometimes that's not even enough.

The Scarf set in particular reaches such an insane Speed and it's so punishing to you if you make the wrong prediction, especially because of the high power of HJK coupled with Beast Boost. It's relatively easy to scout for, but that does not mean it's easy to play around, let alone beat it. With Tapu Lele's support on top of it + Beast Boost, everything is just so dumb, and borderline broken, imo.
 
Can we please talk about how stupid Pheromosa still is? It seems like everyone thinks it's now only okay or maybe everyone's gotten used to it's ridiculousness or whatever, but I still think she's way too hard to deal with for offensive teams. Like, on literally every team I make I have to make sure I pack a hard check to it otherwise I just get curb-stomped every single time and there's nothing I can do, and sometimes that's not even enough.

The Scarf set in particular reaches such an insane Speed and it's so punishing to you if you make the wrong prediction, especially because of the high power of HJK coupled with Beast Boost. It's relatively easy to scout for, but that does not mean it's easy to play around, let alone beat it. With Tapu Lele's support on top of it + Beast Boost, everything is just so dumb, and borderline broken, imo.
The Specs set is also really good. I think the "standard" LO might be the worst since it's so predictable, but Phermosa can actually run other things like Quiver Dance or Specs, which lets it get through normal checks and counters since it hits (a) harder after a QD on something it can force out or (b) hits really hard on the special side, which is great against stuff like mixed Hippo and the like.
 

(Shitty placeholder until we find an artist)

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.


  • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Celesteela can be can also be ranked in A tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.
Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Ranking Team:

We are alphabetical just like the mons.

SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the preliminary pokedex sub-forum along with the OU Analyses sub-forum for WIP.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/uploaded-analyses.412/ http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ou-analyses.406/

Sets viability thread can be found in this link below for discussion of which sets are more viable than others in the meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-sets-viability-rankings.3592113/

SM OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank
Landorus-T
Metagross (Mega)
Tapu Lele

A Rank:

A+ Rank
Ash Greninja

Celesteela
Greninja
Heatran
Magearna

Tapu Fini
Tapu Koko

A Rank
Buzzwole
Charizard (Mega-X)
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Hoopa-U
Magnezone
Manaphy
Pheromosa
Rotom-W
Scizor (Mega)
Tapu Bulu
Venusaur (Mega)
Zygarde

A- Rank
Alakazam (Mega)
Amoonguss
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Excadrill
Jirachi
Latios
Marowak-Alolan
Nihilego
Pinsir (Mega)
Sableye (Mega)
Skarmory
Tornadus-T
Tyranitar
Weavile
Zygarde-10%


B Rank:

B+ Rank
Bisharp
Chansey
Clefable
Dugtrio
Gengar
Keldeo
Kyurem-B
Salamence
Serperior
Tangrowth
Terrakion
Thundurus
Toxapex
Volcarona
Zapdos

B Rank
Dragonite
Gliscor
Gyarados
Kartana
Kingdra
Mantine
Pelipper
Porygon-Z
Scolipede
Slowbro
Volcanion

B- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Breloom
Gyarados (Mega)
Kabutops
Latias
Mew
Omastar
Sharpedo (Mega)
Suicune
Slowbro (Mega)
Slowking
Starmie
Togekiss

C Rank:

C+ Rank
Alomomola
Azumarill
Crawdaunt
Diggersby
Klefki
Hippowdon
Mamoswine
Mimikyu
Muk-Alolan
Minior
Necrozma
Nidoking
Ninetales-Alolan
Shedinja
Whimsicott
Xurkitree

C Rank
Azelf
Dragalge
Empoleon
Gastrodon
Garchomp (Mega)
Kyurem
Magneton
Mandibuzz
Reuniclus
Shuckle
Smeargle
Thundurus-T

C- Rank
Absol (Mega)
Bewear
Cofagrigus
Decidueye
Feraligatr
Hawlucha
Hydreigon
Kommo-o
Primarina
Seismitoad
Talonflame
Tentacruel
Torkoal
Victini



Rules - Now updated 12/24/2016
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
  • No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do. This specifically includes making joke nominations about other users.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
  • POST REPLAYS FOR NOMINATIONS FROM UNRANKED TO RANKED OR YOUR POST WILL BE DELETED!!!
Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these pokemon will be deleted.
  • Golisopod

Happy posting
Hey everyone! I am not sure if it is just me but I feel Pheromosa should be knocked up to A+ , The damage it outputs with high jump kick etc, Is quite large. This mixed with the speed it can gain I believe is quite dangerous to the current Meta that seems to going around at the moment. I do believe it is more deserving of an A+ tier compared to greninja as there seems to be a decent amount of ways to deal with the greninga in the meta at the moment.
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Pyukumuku... At the moment it's not ranked (used to be D ranked). In my opinion it deserves C- at the least and C+ at the most. It's the bulkiest Unaware user out there and is pretty much the only reliable counter to Zard X. It can also counter pokemon like Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Buzzwole, Mega Scizor and Zygarde. In addition, it can check some special attackers like Manaphy and Keldeo. However, despite its great bulk and Unaware access, it's movepool is less than impressive. It's only damage dealing options are Pain Split, Toxic and Counter. However, with the combination of Soak+Toxic, it can destroy all of the things it's meant to counter. With all of the Taunt users and strong special attackers in the meta, however, it can become a slight liability and needs some support.
 
Agreeing with macemaster. Pyukumuku is a pretty cool mon atm, innards out as well as the ability to handle mega-meta (though you need counter to beat meta tbf) and zard-x really well makes it a great partner for stuff like mega pinsir who also loves innards out koing the likes of tapu-koko as well as a viable z-memento user. I haven't used unaware or seen it in action but on paper, unaware plus a slow baton pass is a really useful and unique combination for offensive teams. But yeah, baton pass is huge when compared with other fat pivots for offensive teams and I think with aforementioned qualities makes it worthy of C.
 
Pyukumuku... At the moment it's not ranked (used to be D ranked). In my opinion it deserves C- at the least and C+ at the most. It's the bulkiest Unaware user out there and is pretty much the only reliable counter to Zard X. It can also counter pokemon like Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Buzzwole, Mega Scizor and Zygarde. In addition, it can check some special attackers like Manaphy and Keldeo. However, despite its great bulk and Unaware access, it's movepool is less than impressive. It's only damage dealing options are Pain Split, Toxic and Counter. However, with the combination of Soak+Toxic, it can destroy all of the things it's meant to counter. With all of the Taunt users and strong special attackers in the meta, however, it can become a slight liability and needs some support.
Agreeing with macemaster. Pyukumuku is a pretty cool mon atm, innards out as well as the ability to handle mega-meta (though you need counter to beat meta tbf) and zard-x really well makes it a great partner for stuff like mega pinsir who also loves innards out koing the likes of tapu-koko as well as a viable z-memento user. I haven't used unaware or seen it in action but on paper, unaware plus a slow baton pass is a really useful and unique combination for offensive teams. But yeah, baton pass is huge when compared with other fat pivots for offensive teams and I think with aforementioned qualities makes it worthy of C.
The only problem I see with pyukumuku is shutdown by taunt and Substiture. Tapu Fini a common pokemon with taunt walls it. I love the pokemon one, but I just don't see my self using it in Ou.
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
The only problem I see with pyukumuku is shutdown by taunt and Substiture. Tapu Fini a common pokemon with taunt walls it. I love the pokemon one, but I just don't see my self using it in Ou.
Every pokemon is shut down by something, although Pyukumuku is easier to shut down than most. You don't see yourself using it in OU because it deserves C rank. C rank mons are niche but viable pokemon. I'm not arguing that Pyukumuku is very viable, just viable enough to deserve some ranking.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Ok I'm gonna ask to hold on the Pyukumuku discussion going forward. Discussing unranked noms isnt all that important especially so early in the metagame when I believe its more important to grasp the more relevant facets of the meta. The ranking team will talk about Pyukumuku. Please move on.

Also keep in mind we ask to provide replays for unranked nominations. We will make exceptions such as the case of Alomomola, and here because I wanna make this post with the context, but going forward expect any unranked noms without replays to be deleted
 
Hello guys, I really think most of you are sleeping on Primarina, I assume most people just see it as a worse Tapu Fini, but they have completely different roles, Primarina is a powerful Wallbreaker, after you give it a choice specs, very few Pokemon can reliably switch into its Hydro Pumps or Moonblasts, I don't think C- is a good place to put it because it isn't a niche Pokemon, it is just an extremely underrated Wallbreaker. I'd nominate it to B or B- I think Prima definitely deserves it
 
Nominating Breloom to go from B- to C+

Breloom really suffers in the current metagame as most of the common pokemon that are currently used can easily beat Breloom with ease such as Tapu Lele, Landorus-T, Buzzwole, Pheromosa, Mega Metagross and many more can beat Breloom with ease and the speed tier in the meta also hurts Breloom which is getting a lot faster and the faster pokemon can tank a Mach Punch quite well which hinders Breloom's performance in battle.

Whats even worse for Breloom that Tapu Bulu is overall the better pick than Breloom as it can hit harder with Grass STABs under grassy terrain, is a lot more bulkier, helps getting rid of the other terrains from the other Tapu pokemon and can heal up itself with Horn Leech and overall a better and splashable pick than Breloom and you would only want to use it if you want use Mach Punch which gives Breloom a priority attack and can help beat pokemon such as Ash Greninja, Excadrill and weakened Kyurem-B however a priority attack which most of the meta can tank isn't really much to justify to use over Tapu Bulu which because of these two main reasons I would like to see Breloom go down a rank from B- to C+
 
Hello guys, I really think most of you are sleeping on Primarina, I assume most people just see it as a worse Tapu Fini, but they have completely different roles, Primarina is a powerful Wallbreaker, after you give it a choice specs, very few Pokemon can reliably switch into its Hydro Pumps or Moonblasts, I don't think C- is a good place to put it because it isn't a niche Pokemon, it is just an extremely underrated Wallbreaker. I'd nominate it to B or B- I think Prima definitely deserves it
I believe Primarina's C- mostly because it has to compete with Tapu Lele for wallbreaking shenanigans. The latter is more appealing due to priority inmunity, higher speed, Psyshock and the boost for psychic types.

Primarina's pros is being able to afford being bulky, more resistances, having a surf clone that ignores subs and being a surprisingly good starter competitive-wise (it's nuking everything in UU as we speak.). No idea why people still think Prima and Fini do the same thing.

While I agree that it should definitively be ranked higher (I'm using both her and Kommo-o in OU and I can safely say the latter as of now really deserves to be C-), I think B is still waaaaaaay to high. Her physical bulk is very lackluster so it's not easy to swich out , and there's a lot of things that can sponge her (Celesteela, Magearna, A-Muk, etc.). C or C+ is a more fitting rank if you ask me.

Btw, you guys should definitively try running both her and Scarf Lele. They can nuke lots of things and force switches like crazy.
 
I believe Primarina's C- mostly because it has to compete with Tapu Lele for wallbreaking shenanigans. The latter is more appealing due to priority inmunity, higher speed, Psyshock and the boost for psychic types.

Primarina's pros is being able to afford being bulky, more resistances, having a surf clone that ignores subs and being a surprisingly good starter competitive-wise (it's nuking everything in UU as we speak.). No idea why people still think Prima and Fini do the same thing.

While I agree that it should definitively be ranked higher (I'm using both her and Kommo-o in OU and I can safely say the latter as of now really deserves to be C-), I think B is still waaaaaaay to high. Her physical bulk is very lackluster so it's not easy to swich out , and there's a lot of things that can sponge her (Celesteela, Magearna, A-Muk, etc.). C or C+ is a more fitting rank if you ask me.

Btw, you guys should definitively try running both her and Scarf Lele. They can nuke lots of things and force switches like crazy.
I mean, She does face competition for a teamslot as you said, mainly Volcanion for a Water-type Wallbreaker, and Lele, for a fairy-type, but her STAB combo is fairy unique imao, and that's what sets it apart from Lele and Volcanion. Both of Lele's STABs are resisted by Steel types, and for Volcanion, Water-types can handle it with ease, for Primarina, the Pokemon that can take on her STABs are threatened by Psychic or HP Fire as well. Tbh, B might be too high, but imao Prima is very underrated and deserves more than C-
 
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I mean, She does face competition for a teamslot as you said, mainly Volcanion for a Water-type Wallbreaker, and Lele, for a fairy-type, but her STAB combo is fairy unique imao, and that's what sets it apart from Lele and Volcanion. Both of Lele's STABs are resisted by Steel types, and for Volcanion, Water-types can handle it with ease, for Primarina, the Pokemon that can take on her STABs are threatened by Psychic or HP Fire as well. Tbh, B might be too high, but imao Prima is very underrated and deserves more than C-
I don't think Primarina's stab types are that unique, as both Tapu Fini and Azumarill are OU staples, and have the same stab typing, and, Fini hits similarly hard with the Water-type stab moves after Misty terrain, and is perhaps the best defogger in the game. This is not to say it has to be C-, but it does face stiff competition from other mons in almost every way.
 
I don't think Primarina's stab types are that unique, as both Tapu Fini and Azumarill are OU staples, and have the same stab typing, and, Fini hits similarly hard with the Water-type stab moves after Misty terrain, and is perhaps the best defogger in the game. This is not to say it has to be C-, but it does face stiff competition from other mons in almost every way.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 165-195 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 136-161 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

I think you forgot that Misty terrain doesn't affect any of Tapu Fini's stabs. Anyway, I also agree that Primarina should move up to C or C+ for the reasons mentioned earlier.
 
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The only problem I see with pyukumuku is shutdown by taunt and Substiture. Tapu Fini a common pokemon with taunt walls it. I love the pokemon one, but I just don't see my self using it in Ou.
Pyukumuku's role is to swap boosting sweepers like Terrakion, Mence, Lando-T, Exca, etc. It should have support for taunt sweepers and sub sweepers can't do much back. It's a good alternative to quagsire because it takes SSSS and Close Combats better. M-Sableye is around which means stall is still a pain to deal with, a Pyukumuku gives it support it needs.
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Bewear: C- to Unranked

I don't see how this little guy has a niche in the metagame when Buzzwole and Landorus do his job better. Looking at usage stats, it appears that the only people using him are those using pre-bank "fun" teams in Pokebank OU.

Code:
| Teammates|
| Muk-Alola +7.108% |
| Dhelmise +4.738% |
| Araquanid +4.717% |
| Arcanine +4.253% |
| Marowak-Alola +4.048% |
| Mimikyu +3.735% |
| Xurkitree +3.275% |
| Tsareena +3.138% |
| Golisopod +2.887% |
| Minior +2.705% |
| Necrozma +2.627% |
| Raichu-Alola +2.572% |
But Landorus-T does different things than Bewear... Like, completely different things... Landorus-T sets up rocks, while eating hits, even eating Ice Punches or Hidden Power Ices from some Pokemon, like Tapu Koko. Landorus-T is also a pivot, which Bewear isn't. They have mostly different move pools, and while some moves match up, that doesn't really mean Landorus-T does it's job better. Lando-T doesn't really run Superpower and Knock Off anymore as far as I know, (Maybe on Scarf but I've yet to see those there thanks to HP Ice). All I'm trying to say is you can't really say Landorus-T is a better Bewear when they do completely different things...
 
  1. I'd say Ash-Greninja is fine as-is on A+. I check it handily with Tapu Fini and CM Blissey (note - normally I use CM Blissey to laugh in other Bulky Waters' faces, such as Manaphy) on my current team, though I'm sure others can name different checks on the spot depending on the coverage it runs. I'm certain Tapu Fini is a very reliable cheque to Ash-Gren, and that Tapu Koko outspeeds pre-BattleBonded Ash-Gren and KOs with Volt Switch normally.
  2. As for regular Greninja? I have a hard time imagining most if its sets being S-ranked. The thing about other S-rank mons is that almost all of their sets are S-ranked, with maybe only their most "gimmicky" sets going to A+. What makes Protean Greninja an S-ranked 'mon?
Daily reminder that genesect was banned with none of its individual sets being S

I can see how the coexistence of the two greninja pushed each other to the top though, the same thing happened to Zard last gen until ppl learned to identify it in team preview, though I dont see the same happening to greninja.
 
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Can we please talk about how stupid Pheromosa still is? It seems like everyone thinks it's now only okay or maybe everyone's gotten used to it's ridiculousness or whatever, but I still think she's way too hard to deal with for offensive teams. Like, on literally every team I make I have to make sure I pack a hard check to it otherwise I just get curb-stomped every single time and there's nothing I can do, and sometimes that's not even enough.

The Scarf set in particular reaches such an insane Speed and it's so punishing to you if you make the wrong prediction, especially because of the high power of HJK coupled with Beast Boost. It's relatively easy to scout for, but that does not mean it's easy to play around, let alone beat it. With Tapu Lele's support on top of it + Beast Boost, everything is just so dumb, and borderline broken, imo.
I agree that Pheromosa (+ Lele) really bottlenecks the options for offense since priority is obviously not a real answer and everything else is basically a speed arms race. Phero + Lele core is so annoying for offense to play against. To make matters worse, many otherwise robust checks are weak to Stealth Rocks while pheromosa can smack you with a U-turn, and you can say goodbye to your "check" Gyarados if the Pheromosa happens to be the uncommon but potent HP electric variant.

Fact of the matter is that it's only annoying and not broken, though - or borderline broken, as you described, rather than broken. There are ways for offense to handle this combo. Pursuit trapping, killing their momentum, abusing steels - basically make sure you can take care of lele

One of the best ways to handle the combo is to use agility mega metagross, which reaches an untouchable speed tier and completely turns the tables on phero+lele teams that think they can just sit atop of their incredibly high speed tier and fire HJKs and U-turns with impunity. agility m metagross is far better speed control than bullet punch m metagross imo.
 
Trying to distinguish from the team preview if the opponent has Protean Greninja or Battle Bond Greninja is really hard, or is better to say that is impossible. This is a perk over the Charizards, which can be somewhat identified quickly.

The problem is that the Battle Bond form adds even more unpredictability to the table, in the sense that you have to scout what ability runs (and this is simple: you have to eat an attack to see if Greninja changes type) and then you have to:
(1) scout the coverage moves of LO Protean Greninja OR
(2) survive towards the Water/Dark STABs (20% stronger with LO than those used by its counterpart) coming from a +10 base Spe, which is really handy to outspeed relevant threats

They are both powerful cleaners and momentum-grabber and I don't think they are healthy; luckily enough they don't have the resistances Genesect has, but still they are a must-have or threats that are to be considered when teambuilding. They are low risk-high reward pokemons to the point they have a huuuge impact on the metagame.

==> they could be fine both in S rank.
Ash Greninja loses 8% power onto its coverage moves, in exchange of harder STABs and +10 Spe. I don't think that there is so much difference between the two in order to justify a different placement.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Okay so I've been holding off on saying anything about this because I thought people were beginning to see the light but when I'm still seeing people post about it everywhere I feel like I need to finally get this out there. This is going to be a book so I apologize in advance.

Pheromosa is overrated as fuck, and is definitely not suspect worthy in the slightest at this point in the meta.

Okay so the biggest reasons why people consider Pheromosa overwhelming is because of its impact on offensive teams. Its Speed tier is insane because it outspeeds most of what is found on offense, it has great offenses to hit pretty damn hard, and it has a very strong STAB move in HJK, as well as STAB U-turn, Ice Beam for Landorus-T, and Poison Jab for Fairies. So why is Pheromosa overrated? Well for one thing, when it's not facing an offensive team, it has so many issues. Bulkier builds usually pack Pokemon such as Tapu Fini, Mega Venusaur, Amoounguss, Buzzwole, Toxapex, Mega Sableye (on stall) and Alolan Marowak, which just don't really give a fuck about Pheromosa at all, and all heavily pressure it from clicking HJK, which is its strongest STAB move. U-turn, albeit far from weak, just doesn't do enough to fat Pokemon such as Tapu Fini, Venu, or Sableye to really put it in range of so many other Pokemon. And on top of that, so many of these Pokemon are very easy to fit onto teams because of their synergy, so Pheromosa will basically be sitting in the back doing nothing until all of these Pokemon are gone, and most likely, any smart player isn't going to let that happen easily. And that's just the Pokemon that beat it defensively.

Offense has plenty of Pokemon for it too, but obviously because of its Speed stat, it's not as easy, but still perfectly manageable. Priority is very common on Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Scizor, Ash Greninja, Mega Pinsir and both Zygardes (prior damage of course). Its Scarf set is very fast, but the biggest issue is that it just can't afford to spam HJK at all until very late into the game, because there are still plenty of Pokemon that can live a hit and OHKO in return, and that brings me to my biggest issue with it; Pheromosa has zero defensive utility. In a more offensive metagame, having good defensive synergy on an offensive team is actually very important, because it allows you to pivot into resisted attacks when needed in order to gain momentum, as well as potentially resisting sweepers that rely on priority to sweep. Pheromosa has some of the worst bulk in the tier, and because of that, anything it fails to OHKO, will most likely OHKO it in return. On top of that, by using it on your team, you're basically giving up a teamslot that could be used for something else that could potentially help you switch into a BP from Mega Sciz, Mash from Metagross, Tapu Koko's Thunderbolt, etc. It's purely put onto teams for its offensive capabilities, and while there usually isn't anything wrong with that, Pheromosa just doesn't have the ability to pressure the metagame so much to a point where every time it comes in it's usually going to get a kill. Just look at something like Hoopa-U. While it has decent special bulk, it has very little defensive synergy, and it's primarily used for its wallbreaking abilities. But the thing with Hoopa, is that every time it comes in, it's a lot more punishing, considering that the only thing that really switches into Hoopa reliably is AV Magearna. And despite Hoopa's shit defensive utility, it still finds opportunities to come in on weaker special attacks and or Psychic moves. So while Hoopa sort of forgos a teamslot for less defensive utility, it's so threatening offensively that it's well worth the sacrifice.

Pheromosa is completely dependent on momentum and free switch-ins to get it in. You are forced to make doubles, sack something, or U-turn/Volt into it. But you'd think it'd be worth the payoff considering how devastating Phero is right? Well not really. With how easy it is to punish Pheromosa's main STAB in HJK, half the time it will just come in and click U-turn, which wont be dealing a huge amount of damage to much. So if you think about it, why spend so much time trying to get Pheromosa in when you'll just end up U-turning anyway? Seems like a bit of a waste. I'd rather use that free turn for something like Hoopa or Ash Gren which are much harder to punish/switch into overall. The only sets that seem to punish switch-ins, are Specs or Quiver Dance, because a Specs Bug Buzz hits very hard and chips stuff like Fini and Buzzwole a LOT more than Scarf or LO. If Scarf is locked into any move that isn't U-turn, it's easily punishable and something on offense like Salamence, Mega Pinsir, or Landorus-T could use it as set up fodder if it's not locked into Ice Beam. Being locked into something like Ice Beam and Poison Jab makes it extremely vulnerable anyway. Its coverage moves also just don't hit hard enough, so stuff like Fini can come in even on Poison Jab. Life Orb gives it a lot more firepower, but then it has to worry about basically every Scarfer in the tier revenge killing it, as well as being very prone to being put in range of practically every priority move in the tier. And while I like Specs and QD, they still have similar issues with all of its others, in which they all lack defensive utility, require free turns to get in safely, and if they fail to kill something they die. I see it being compared to Deoxys, but the difference with Deoxys is that its coverage moves are much stronger than Pheromosas, while also having an extremely brainless STAB move to spam in the form of Psycho Boost. They're not really that comparable other than that they're purely offensive based.

But yeah, I'm just really not seeing how Pheromosa is broken at all. It doesn't force you to use obscure Pokemon to check it, because most of the Pokemon that do are some of the best picks in the meta. Outside of being annoying for offense, it has a really hard time doing much versus most builds, as they are just so well prepared for it without even really trying. Every time I've used it, I always felt like it just sat there and didn't really do anything, and the times that it had a chance to do something, I usually just ended up bringing in something more reliable anyway. While it's annoying for offense, it's far from being unmanageable. I mean, I think it speaks volume that you really just don't see it that often in a lot of higher level games. Hell, in one of the more recent SPL matches where Snow brought it vs DD, the only thing it did the whole match was just Rapid Spin hazards away, and DD's Tapu Fini forced it to click U-turn throughout the match until in the end when it failed to even kill an AV Torn-T at like 58%. It wasn't this "extremely pressuring" force that people make it out to be. The only sets that even scare me are its Special sets, and even then, Focus Blast is very risky to use because of its fragility so you're pretty limited to using Buzz, and with QD you have to depend so much on forcing switches to set up, and even then a +1 Phero is still not 6-0ing any well built team.

tl;dr Pheromosa is by no means bad, but it's not broken in the slightest.

PS: Fuck P2
 
I don't think Pheromosa is at all broken or banworthy...I do however think it is deserving of being put back into the A+ tier, it's impact on the metagame, and especially offense definitely rivals if not surpasses the likes of Celesteela, Koko, Heatran who are currently in the A+ tier. I know people lately have been on a Pheromosa isn't even good bandwagon lately though, but really without priority (or even with if this thing is getting paired with Lele) its at a pretty much untouchable speed tier with scarf and that shouldn't be underappreciated. Even though I myself haven't been using it a ton lately I still think it's really good at what it does.
 
Nominating Breloom to go from B- to C+

Breloom really suffers in the current metagame as most of the common pokemon that are currently used can easily beat Breloom with ease such as Tapu Lele, Landorus-T, Buzzwole, Pheromosa, Mega Metagross and many more can beat Breloom with ease and the speed tier in the meta also hurts Breloom which is getting a lot faster and the faster pokemon can tank a Mach Punch quite well which hinders Breloom's performance in battle.

Whats even worse for Breloom that Tapu Bulu is overall the better pick than Breloom as it can hit harder with Grass STABs under grassy terrain, is a lot more bulkier, helps getting rid of the other terrains from the other Tapu pokemon and can heal up itself with Horn Leech and overall a better and splashable pick than Breloom and you would only want to use it if you want use Mach Punch which gives Breloom a priority attack and can help beat pokemon such as Ash Greninja, Excadrill and weakened Kyurem-B however a priority attack which most of the meta can tank isn't really much to justify to use over Tapu Bulu which because of these two main reasons I would like to see Breloom go down a rank from B- to C+
Disagree entirely. For one thing, of the Pokemon you mention, only Buzzwole and Megagross actually beat Breloom, and this only if Breloom has exhausted its Spore. Tapu Lele is OHKOed by Bullet Seed, as is Pheromosa through its resistance, and Landorus-T is possibly 2HKOed by Bullet Seed even after Intimidate, and cannot even 2HKO unless running a flying move.

More particularly, OU hasn't really gained any new sleep absorbers that are capable of switching in on Breloom's other attacks. The bulkiest current Tapu Bulu is 2HKOed by Bullet Seed (
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 156-186 (48.4 - 57.7%) -- approx. 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery), while being slower than Breloom, Tapu Fini and Koko are both OHKOed, etc. Mega Venusaur is still around, and is a massive pain in Breloom's side, but his increased usage is largely offset by Talonflame's complete and total absence, which gives Breloom a lot more breathing room and also makes older Subseeding Poison Heal variants more viable again. The ability to revenge Ash Greninja is just an additional perk.

"you would only want to use it if you want use Mach Punch which gives Breloom a priority attack and can help beat pokemon such as Ash Greninja, Excadrill and weakened Kyurem-B"
This is complete nonsense and ignores the most obvious perk that has made Breloom stand out since its introduction: Spore. There are still precious few Pokemon that can switch in on the move, and fewer still who can switch in on it and also take a technician-boosted Bullet Seed to the face.
 
I don't think Pheromosa is at all broken or banworthy...I do however think it is deserving of being put back into the A+ tier, it's impact on the metagame, and especially offense definitely rivals if not surpasses the likes of Celesteela, Koko, Heatran who are currently in the A+ tier. I know people lately have been on a Pheromosa isn't even good bandwagon lately though, but really without priority (or even with if this thing is getting paired with Lele) its at a pretty much untouchable speed tier with scarf and that shouldn't be underappreciated. Even though I myself haven't been using it a ton lately I still think it's really good at what it does.
I'd like to add to this and say mainly from the perspective of the standard physically-biased mixed Scarfed set, her coverage is near-perfect for dealing with opposing Scarfers and fast-mons. Having the coverage to handle Scarfers like Lele, Lando-T, Exca, Terrakion, Latios, and fast mons like Koko, A-Gren, and Mega-Zam, she can very effectively manage opposing revenge killers which can immediately give a team the edge in speed if the opponent relies on such mons as their only means of speed-control. The ability to force switches and maintain momentum spamming U-Turn is also a brilliant asset for a mon like Phero. Yes, Phero can be walled by plenty and she is very limited in terms of effective coverage so definitely not without notable flaws, but being able to excel at the role of revenge killer and offensive pivot I'd say puts Phero one step above where she is right now and a comfortable choice for A+.
 
I'll break these up a bit since I'm going to talk about a few things.
(This isn't a nom for rising or lowering, just two cents)
Breloom is suffering currently. Mega Metagross is a top tier threat, Tapu Lele can revenge kill it with extreme ease, Buzzwole and Alolan Marowak wall it to hell and back, Mega Venusaur is even stronger now, and many of the Pokemon that Breloom was used to check/beat in ORAS are either infinitely more uncommon (Bisharp, Gliscor, Slowbro for example) or unreleased at this moment (Mega Lopunny). Also, the reason why all of the Tapus are an issue aren't because of the mons they are necessarily, but ALL of the terrains bar Grassy give Breloom hell. Electric Terrain fucks with your Spore, and so does Misty Terrain. Psychic Terrain prevents you from using Mach Punch, one of your key moves against Offense. Breloom's just in a bad spot currently, and not nearly as good as he was in ORAS

Now, on to the current VR.
A- -> B+
Agree

Does a suicide lead with a horrendous typing, abysmal physical bulk, and decent at best speed honestly deserve to be described as "Very solid in the metagame"? Or hell, does it deserve to really even be higher than strong wallbreakers and utility mons such Gengar or Thundurus? There are much more useful leads out there and I personally fail to understand why Nihilego is anywhere near the A ranks. It's outclassed as a revenge killer, outclassed as a lead, outclassed as a "wall", and just.. Misses the mark for me. (Though I would be glad to be told why it's apparently A- material)
After talking with a few people, I now understand its niche better as a Scarf Revenge Killer and Cleaner. Though, I don't think it fills this role as well as other Pokemon in this category (Terrakion, Garchomp, Kartana, Zydog I feel are honestly better choices for this) but at least I can understand WHY It's A- though, even if I don't agree. Still nomming it to go down to B+ due to how it has some pretty stiff competition and not much going for it outside of its Scarf niche.
B+ -> A-
Agree

Terrakion is an extremely slept on and threatening mon with a great STAB typing, two very decent sets in Scarf and Life Orb + Swords Dance, and proves to be an immense pain to properly switch into with Offensive playstyles. Quick Attack is honestly a very decent move on SD variants that can bait in a frail threat to revenge kill you (Most specifically Pheromosa) while also breaking through defensive threats as well. The type of pressure it immediately puts on Offense is more than enough to warrant a spot in A- in the current meta.
A -> A+
Agree

Mega Venusaur is such an absolute monster and nightmare to kill. It blanket checks every single electric type in the tier, fears nothing from Water types (Outside of Ash-Greninja who CAN 2HKO with Dark Pulse), takes care of Tapu Bulu, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, Weavile, Buzzwole, Pheromosa, Volcanion, is an overall amazing pivot, and benefits greatly from the burn nerf. Mega Venusaur is honestly just a very meta-defining Pokemon currently and deserves a spot in A+.
A -> A+
Agree

I can't say much more than what's already been said. Mega Scizor is a very capable pivot, set up sweeper, and tank that doesn't have much utility cost outside of taking up your Mega slot, which isn't really much of an argument when you do as much and as well as Mega Scizor does.


C+ -> B-/B
While yes, there ARE better Dark Types and Pursuit Trappers, Alolan Muk can always 1v1 Tapu Lele and consistently beat it throughout a match. And while that isn't its only drawing point, it's certainly Muk's most appealing, and can still comfortably Pursuit trap everything it needs to while also annoying most all switchins that aren't Steel or Poison Types with a very prominent chance to poison said switch in with Poison Touch. Overall it's not the BEST Pokemon, and should almost never be considered first, but it does have enough merits that I think earns it a place somewhere in the B tiers. (P.S. If you want to use Alolan-Muk to its most effective, use it alongside Charizard-Y. Off topic but it's such a good combination that deserves a mention.)

(Sorry if some of what I said was redundant. I'm tired a'f and just wanted to post)
 
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