Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Colonel M]

A --> A-
Don't think it merits the same rank as Keldeo as Keldeo is a better scarfer with the lack of water resists in a lot of teams. Lando is a thing and EQ is bad to be locked into with Zapdos, Heracross, and Celesteela, Tangrowth, etc.. Sitting above Nihilego and below Keldeo is a good fit.

Disagree. Though Garchomp is definitely not as great of a Choice Scarf user it is very competent in its breaker roles as well as offensive Stealth Rock sets. The nice thing is Rocks Garchomp isn't passive in comparison to defensive Landorus-T at times (it's not that passive, but definitely more passive than its offensive sets for sure) and it's a great abuser of Z Moves / Life Orb. I think Garchomp is fine in A at this time since it was ranked in A more than just solely its Scarf set.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Amoonguss to B+ / B

Now, the main thing with Amoonguss is that AV Tang outclasses it. Seeing how it just got a rise, It's hard to find a real reason to run this thing other than for Spore, which is as rare as it has ever been. Also, it has a niche in tackling Gren, but Gren is kind of shakier than before right now, and Gren usually runs Extrasensory nowadays, nullifying Amoonguss ASAP. Also, Lele's rise doesn't help things either. I didn't want to lower this thing too far down though, as it is a non-mega option to Mega Venu for its role and Spore isn't bad per se, so B or B- serves it well right now.

I would honestly have to disagree with you on a couple points, but I generally agree with a drop being needed. Assault Vest Tangrowth outclasses it as a Bulky Grass Type, granted, but it surely can't spread Sleep around. The REAL reason to drop Amoonguss is the rise of each and every Tapu, and at least one of them is seen on almost every team. Tapu Lele holds a STAB Psychic that cleanly wipes through it, Tapu Koko's Electric Terrain prevents Sleep, Tapu Fini's Misty Terrain prevents any and all status, and Tapu Bulu is immune to Spore, even if Clear Smog does some pretty nasty damage (though this can lead to a typically easy to predict Clear Smog, meaning that double switch is made easier). It's not necessarily the Pokemon themselves (outside of Lele), since it can sit there on Tapu Koko for a couple turns, but rather the Terrain that two of them bring in that neuters Amoonguss's main selling point: Spore. Three of the four Tapus prevent its job from being done while one of them can make double switching complete heaven. Outside of that, the rise of Assault Vest Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur's usage has made its job even harder. The genuine plus it has against Assault Vest Tangrowth is the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes (and it's also not as destroyed from Will-O-Wisp as Tangrowth it, mind you), which is still a valuable trait to hold in a meta with more Toxic Spikes on the field than ever. On that note, though, most people that would run a bulky Poison-Type would likely run either Alolan Muk or Toxapex, especially since the latter can set said hazard pretty easily. Even on the offensive spectrum, Gengar has risen in usage and can absorb Toxic Spikes while threatening a solid majority of the metagame.

Let me elaborate on some points. Amoonguss has a 96.5% chance to 2HKO Tapu Koko with Clear Smog (CLEAR SMOG OF ALL MOVES) after Stealth Rock damage. The switch in on a predicted Spore is all it takes for Tapu Koko to U-Turn (or Volt Switch) out into a better performing check that will no longer fear Spore thanks to Electric Terrain. A similar issue arrises for Tapu Fini, except it will have to double switch. Even assuming these, Amoonguss's role while the terrains were brought up previously (not an uncommon state in a battle) is still rendered moot, meaning that, unless it comes in on a Pokemon it doesn't need Spore to check, its main point is rendered moot.

Basically, Amoonguss is mostly outclassed by other Pokemon right now, even if it still performs pretty...okay, and the meta shifts have NOT been kind to it, particularly the Terrains. A drop to A-/B+ is fine, honestly.

 

[Charizard.C]

Hi guys, first time posting on the VR thread.

Tapu Lele to A+ -> S

This mon is so busted, it is definitely not overrated and should rise because of how easy it is to fit into teams and because of the many changes in the meta going on its favor. Some of the changes include the Mega Metagross ban as it was one of its best checks in the meta, the Greninja drop (which is a decent offensive check to non scarf variants because of is access to Gunk Shot), the introduction of Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham, (which not only Lele checks but also helps its damage output because of Psychic Terrain) and the possible rise of Zygarde 50%, a mon that Lele checks pretty well with moonblast. It also enjoys the huge presence of entry hazards right now as it can use them to wear down some of its sturdiest checks such as Ferro and Chansey.
Tapu Lele is a also super easy to fit into teams because of its high performance against many playstyles in the meta depending on its set. The Scarf set is great against HO and its stallbreaker set makes the life of the ever popular stall teams hell, and I must say that even when it is not running the most optimal for the team it is facing, it doesn't become a deadweight at all as it can still do a lot of damage against stall teams with psychic when running scarf and threaten some offensive mons in HO, such as Mimikyu with the stallbreaker set.
The rise of 101+ scarf users isn't as bad as it might seem, as Lele can survive hits from the likes of Garchomp and Keldeo and OHKO back (unless it is named Nihilego, but hey, every mon has weaknesses), and even Mew and Jirachi aren't that much of a problem for Lele as it can dent both of them with Shadow Ball.
Lele if far from being overrated, it should rise to S because of these changes in the metagame and because of how splashable it is.
Calcs:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 160-189 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 261-307 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 240-284 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Mew: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Hi guys, first time posting on the VR thread.

Tapu Lele to A+ -> S

This mon is so busted, it is definitely not overrated and should rise because of how easy it is to fit into teams and because of the many changes in the meta going on its favor. Some of the changes include the Mega Metagross ban as it was one of its best checks in the meta, the Greninja drop (which is a decent offensive check to non scarf variants because of is access to Gunk Shot), the introduction of Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham, (which not only Lele checks but also helps its damage output because of Psychic Terrain) and the possible rise of Zygarde 50%, a mon that Lele checks pretty well with moonblast. It also enjoys the huge presence of entry hazards right now as it can use them to wear down some of its sturdiest checks such as Ferro and Chansey.
Tapu Lele is a also super easy to fit into teams because of its high performance against many playstyles in the meta depending on its set. The Scarf set is great against HO and its stallbreaker set makes the life of the ever popular stall teams hell, and I must say that even when it is not running the most optimal for the team it is facing, it doesn't become a deadweight at all as it can still do a lot of damage against stall teams with psychic when running scarf and threaten some offensive mons in HO, such as Mimikyu with the stallbreaker set.
The rise of 101+ scarf users isn't as bad as it might seem, as Lele can survive hits from the likes of Garchomp and Keldeo and OHKO back (unless it is named Nihilego, but hey, every mon has weaknesses), and even Mew and Jirachi aren't that much of a problem for Lele as it can dent both of them with Shadow Ball.
Lele if far from being overrated, it should rise to S because of these changes in the metagame and because of how splashable it is.
Calcs:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 160-189 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 261-307 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 240-284 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Mew: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.

Lele is certainly not as impactful or on the same level as Lando-T. You do mention some meta trends that have helped it (MegaGross being gone, the new megas), but fail to see what hold it back.

First, I'm not sure how Greninja dropping impacts it all that much. Greninja's viability, iirc, decreased because it can't afford to run enough coverage moves and can be more easily checked (i.e - more psychic types now = it runs dark pulse = it gives up a coverage move) but gunk shot is still, imo, something it should be running to hit all the fairies, beat Fini, etc.. as Greninja excels at pressuring hazard removers and setting them up itself. Also yes, Lele can threaten Zygarde with moonblast, but Zygarde can threaten Lele with thousand arrows.. point is, you need a safe switch in. This is similar to a point that came up during the Gengar conversation - it (a lot of the times) needs a free switch in.

Second, you failed to hit on the fact that Lele still struggles with removing steel types, especially when teams love running two of them. Celesteela is still annoying as ever, and scarf basically can't touch it. If you're running the stallbreaker set and want to hit Jirachi and Mew, like you mentioned, you miss out on doing anything to Celesteela, Ferro, Heatran, etc. Not sure if you realize how big of a deal this is.

Although it's certainly not dead weight most of the times, it doesn't pull the weight that an S mon feels like it should. This isn't to say it's bad either - it's A+ for a reason.

Lele is definitely not on S level, and I don't think the reasons you stated are sufficient enough to warrant a rise, if at all.

 

[Gary]

To add onto that, while we lost a good offensive check in Mega Metagross, we "gained" two in the massive influx of Magearna and Celesteela, both of which give it a ton of issues and are much harder for Lele to deal with overall, considering that Lele could just run Shadow Ball on its movesets which kept Meta from blindly switching into it 24/7. Lele can T-Bolt on some of its sets I guess and Electrium Z, but it has to rely on catching it on the switch or hoping it doesn't Protect vs it. Magearna is just a huge issue in general for Lele, and the only thing that really bothers it is a Specs Psyshock. But overall, both of those mons being way more splashable makes up for the loss of Mega Metagross, and I really don't find Lele to be that much better than it already was.

I'm not sure why people continue to overrate this mon so much, and saying it's on par with Landorus-T is honestly absurd. Hell, I don't even think it's as good as some of the mons in A+. I think Steela, Magearna, Zygarde, and the Grens are far more influential atm.

 

[Sueshidragon]

Hasn't Koko always been like that? I don't see what has changed for it to warrant a rise, it really isn't on the same level as Zygarde, Lele, Celesteela and the Super Greninja Brothers, it's special attack is pretty piss weak and it really struggles to kill stuff without using electric moves. And am I missing something? Were Mega Metagross and Scizor checks to Koko or something? Because I'm pretty sure Meta is outsped and 2HKO'ed, and Bulky Scizor can't 2HKO while Koko can, and nobody runs offensive mega scizor.

(Super Greninja brothers, I can't breathe at that, best thing I've heard in forever) and yeah, Metagross sent Koko to she shadow realm with a Meteor Mash while a +2 Scizor put some serious hurt on it. A+ status may be debatable for right now, but I think he should at the very least be considered if the meta changes any more to suit him. There's loads of hyper offense in SM, and Koko is the best offensive pivot for said teams. Pairing well with Landorus, Greninja, and Mawile really help this thing.

Also..

Hi guys, first time posting on the VR thread.

Tapu Lele to A+ -> S

This mon is so busted, it is definitely not overrated and should rise because of how easy it is to fit into teams and because of the many changes in the meta going on its favor. Some of the changes include the Mega Metagross ban as it was one of its best checks in the meta, the Greninja drop (which is a decent offensive check to non scarf variants because of is access to Gunk Shot), the introduction of Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham, (which not only Lele checks but also helps its damage output because of Psychic Terrain) and the possible rise of Zygarde 50%, a mon that Lele checks pretty well with moonblast. It also enjoys the huge presence of entry hazards right now as it can use them to wear down some of its sturdiest checks such as Ferro and Chansey.

Are you suggesting ANYTHING in OU is on par with Lando-T?! If Greninja wasn't, Lele for sure isn't. Lele is strong, I'll give you that much. But with the rise of Magearna and Celesteela? That's a no go for certain. If anyone at all should be nominated for a rise to S, it's either Zygarde or Magearna, and those two are debatable for rising. Lele dead loses to most Steel types in OU, having little way to counter OU's best Mega (Mawile), the amazingly versatile Magearna, the omnipresent defensive Celesteela, and decade-old metagame staple Heatran. Steel is one of the best types right now, and these four among others shuts down Lele hard. Metagross's ban really didn't help Lele, and in fact, hurt it- seeing as the ban caused a rise in Celesteela/Magearna usage, 2 bigger counters. Overall, Lele is good where it is, in A+.

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

Is there any way to see the percentage of each pokemon's usage? I kept reading the Celesteela's usage has risen since Mega Metagross'es ban. However, it is still A+ rank, which it always was ever since the Sun Moon OU meta started! I dont know how people say its usage has risen when it is still in the same ranking as it has been from the start.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

First of all, do not double post.

Usage does NOT imply rank. What are you trying to argue? People can't be using Celesteela more because it would rise if they did? By that logic Tapu Fini should have been somewhere in like the high A's. Yes, Celesteela became a more attractive option, but why does that necessitate a change in rank?

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

First of all, do not double post.

Usage does NOT imply rank. What are you trying to argue? People can't be using Celesteela more because it would rise if they did? By that logic Tapu Fini should have been somewhere in like the high A's. Yes, Celesteela became a more attractive option, but why does that necessitate a change in rank?

I accidently posted twice.

I am not implying that it should rise because people started to use it more. I just wanted to know if I can see the usage percentage.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

http://www.smogon.com/stats/

Here you go.

April / May stats aren't out yet, though, so the MMeta ban is not reflected yet.

 

[Toshiro46]

http://www.smogon.com/stats/

Here you go.

April / May stats aren't out yet, though, so the MMeta ban is not reflected yet.

That's useless to them, because they're specifically asking about Celesteela's usage post meta ban.

The whole discussion on Lele already ran its course immediately after Megagross was banned. Since then the meta has gotten worse for it, really. A drop is a better idea than a rise lol, which is saying a lot because a drop for Lele is pretty unlikely to happen.

Gary Would you consider starting up "Discussion Points" after the ranking updates again, so we can see what the council was undecided upon and discuss accordingly?

 

[Gary]

Gary Would you consider starting up "Discussion Points" after the ranking updates again, so we can see what the council was undecided upon and discuss accordingly?

Yes, I plan on bringing discussion points back in the next update. The reason I stopped doing them in the first place is because usually only the first few posters would actually follow the discussion points, while other people would usually just veer off and discuss something else anyway, like C- mons because we all know how important it is to properly rank those lol...

But yeah, you're not the only one that's requested them to come back within the last few weeks, so I'll definitely give it another try. If it still seems like people can't stay on track then don't expect them to stay forever unfortunately.

 

[Nuked]

I wanted to make a nomination that makes sense, I think.

Nihilego -> B / B-

I'll be honest, this thing isn't that good anymore. For starters, neither of its STAB moves are spammable at all, as they both let in top metagame threats like Mega Mawile, Magearna, and Landorus-T in for free. I really don't like scarf sets, because they're so easily walled (like, for real, Magearna and Toxapex laugh at this thing) and its impact against offense is rather underwhelming because its STAB moves in comes Heatran, Magearna, or Landorus-T. It does not entirely reliably revenge kill Volcarona anymore since the Charti Berry set started seeing usage, and even if it isn't Charti Berry it's so easy to take advantage of the free turns it gives. Choice Specs sets have difficulty breaking past basically every Ground-type and just gets trapped and removed by Dugtrio, and Scarf sets also get trapped by Dugtrio too. Nihilego's also dislikes Tyranitar and Latios seeing more usage, and its old checks are still very much here (and getting better), and its effectiveness is dropping, and therefore I think it should drop in the VR too.

 

[innisfree]

B- -> B
I tend to avoid posting on OU VR threads as I feel like there's a ton of theorymonning and bandwagoning that goes on, but Mega Slowbro being in B- is simply not an accurate representation of how effective it is in the current meta imo. I got tired of using Tangrowth and RH Lando-T on every team for my Zygarde check, so after seeing ABR use a 3 attacks Mega Slowbro I decided to give it a shot myself, and I've been surprised at how consistently well it performs. In general, M-Bro offers solid role compression, being a water resist and able to pivot around + threaten mons which are difficult to check otherwise such as Zygarde, offensive Lando-T, Keldeo, Garchomp, M-Medicham, etc while being less passive than Tang and RH Lando. Most of the time I use M-Bro, I use it as a Regenerator pivot early/mid game to switch into the aforementioned mons then mega evolve it to beat a boosted physical attacker 1v1 in the late game. 296 spatk uninvested is super solid while Water/Ice/Fire coverage hits a large portion of the metagame, and coupled with its insane defense stat means it is one of the few mons which can tank a hit and threaten mons such as +2 M-Mawile and +1 Zygarde (DD Devasting Drake and DD Sitrus, the latter of which I've seen used mostly on Webs, have been becoming increasingly popular in order to beat Tang/RH Lando-T) in the late game. Scald is still dumb and punishes mons like Pex and AV Mag which would switch in for free and get momentum otherwise. In addition, M-Bro has been seeing more usage in tournament play with players such as Steve Angello and rozes having brought it recently in week 5 of OUPL, which represents its increasing effectiveness in the meta. Needless to say, M-Bro definitely feels far more consistent and effective to me than most of the mons in the B- rank such as Latias, Omastar, PZ, A-Muk, etc, and I think it deserves consideration for a raise.

 

[njnp]

I got one that I'm legitimately curious about and on the fence on. I'll chime in & edit this when I have a bit more time:

Tapu Koko --> A+

Tapu Koko is certainly not A Plus. A plus is reserved for mons that have the ability to control a game and turn it into all about them. Kokos current rank a is appropriate, generally it's aiding a mon, breaking stall, or setting up its terrain to give a stronger electric move. It's also the only tapu that really didn't benefit from gross being banned. It is certainly not a bad mon that's for sure but nothing currently warrants it's rise...it's certainly seems to have been more effective as a utility in the current meta. Thing that certaintly is something you should have pointed out is its anti webs which got better with the loss of mega gross to the tier. Anyway, Koko is fine where it is. Thanks for posting.

B- -> B
I tend to avoid posting on OU VR threads as I feel like there's a ton of theorymonning and bandwagoning that goes on, but Mega Slowbro being in B- is simply not an accurate representation of how effective it is in the current meta imo. I got tired of using Tangrowth and RH Lando-T on every team for my Zygarde check, so after seeing ABR use a 3 attacks Mega Slowbro I decided to give it a shot myself, and I've been surprised at how consistently well it performs. In general, M-Bro offers solid role compression, being a water resist and able to pivot around + threaten mons which are difficult to check otherwise such as Zygarde, offensive Lando-T, Keldeo, Garchomp, M-Medicham, etc while being less passive than Tang and RH Lando. Most of the time I use M-Bro, I use it as a Regenerator pivot early/mid game to switch into the aforementioned mons then mega evolve it to beat a boosted physical attacker 1v1 in the late game. 296 spatk uninvested is super solid while Water/Ice/Fire coverage hits a large portion of the metagame, and coupled with its insane defense stat means it is one of the few mons which can tank a hit and threaten mons such as +2 M-Mawile and +1 Zygarde (DD Devasting Drake and DD Sitrus, the latter of which I've seen used mostly on Webs, have been becoming increasingly popular in order to beat Tang/RH Lando-T) in the late game. Scald is still dumb and punishes mons like Pex and AV Mag which would switch in for free and get momentum otherwise. In addition, M-Bro has been seeing more usage in tournament play with players such as Steve Angello and rozes having brought it recently in week 5 of OUPL, which represents its increasing effectiveness in the meta. Needless to say, M-Bro definitely feels far more consistent and effective to me than most of the mons in the B- rank such as Latias, Omastar, PZ, A-Muk, etc, and I think it deserves consideration for a raise.

Great post mate, let's get into mega slowbro. It certainly has the rare ability to take on most of the physical threats in the metagame. You would hope so with its huge defense stat haha...It doesn't change the fact that this mon can be heavily pressured. You generally are forced to mega to keep some of these threats in check and if your opp is smart they will just switch as you mega and then they will focus on chipping you or pressing you with the means they have. Mega Slowbro can not run cm in this metagame it just losses too to much and it is hard to pull off a sweep with it. Leaving you with a 3 atking set which forces you to run ice beam for chomp/lando, scald for general stab, fire blast for mega mawile/ferro. Leaving you with a mon that is walled by toxapex and giving it free toxic spikes. There is also the addition of mega heracross to the meta which is always been mega slowbro less favorable mega to face. Currently slowbro is fairly better then the mons Lati omastar etc you mentioned but I don't think atm a rise is appropriate. It just recently lost a mon to counter in mega metagross and gained a measure in mega heracross. The removal of gross has let to the usage of bulu to as well rise which I'm sure you have noticed slowbro certainly does not wanna give that mon free hammer arms/leechs. There also is the fact all the current hos in the metagame pressure the shit out of it. It can't even be a nice counter measure to that arch type. So, yea that's my thoughts...thanks for posting.

 

[AK THE LEGEND]

nah tapu koko can def be an A+. Once you get rid of the electric immunity mons (ground types mainly), battles are a walk in the park for this mon. Constant volt switches, gaining momentum and being an elite force with amazing speed makes this mon a beast in the OU tier. I guess u could also say its current ranking of A is appropriate cuz of all the ground mons running around in the ou tier. It is also rather weak to scarfs and priority moves.
I think specs koko with hp ice is a great set. It 1ohkos defensive landos.

 

[The Loog Noog]

nah tapu koko can def be an A+. Once you get rid of the electric immunity mons (ground types mainly), battles are a walk in the park for this mon. Constant volt switches, gaining momentum and being an elite force with amazing speed makes this mon a beast in the OU tier. I guess u could also say its current ranking of A is appropriate cuz of all the ground mons running around in the ou tier. It is also rather weak to scarfs and priority moves.
I think specs koko with hp ice is a great set. It 1ohkos defensive landos.

Qualifying phrase being "once you get rid of the electric immunity". Whenever your opponent has a ground type vs a Tapu Koko, odds are that they aren't just gonna sack it early in the game. Also, the stallbreaker set ends up being dead weight in a lot of matchups because ground types more or less relegate it to being useless, as it doesn't run HP Ice. If you even consider using Specs, you're immediately in a disadvantageous position because getting choice locked into an electric move just invites Coil/DD Zygarde, DD Lando, etc. to come in an set up for free. Obviously Tapu Koko is a solid mon that has a defined niche in the tier, but it's certainly not on the level of other A+ rank mons like Tapu Lele, Zygarde, Greninja, Volcarona, etc.

 

[Toshiro46]

I'll definitely give it another try.

Awesome, thanks.

I wanted to make a nomination that makes sense, I think.

Nihilego -> B / B-

I'll be honest, this thing isn't that good anymore. For starters, neither of its STAB moves are spammable at all, as they both let in top metagame threats like Mega Mawile, Magearna, and Landorus-T in for free. I really don't like scarf sets, because they're so easily walled (like, for real, Magearna and Toxapex laugh at this thing) and its impact against offense is rather underwhelming because its STAB moves in comes Heatran, Magearna, or Landorus-T. It does not entirely reliably revenge kill Volcarona anymore since the Charti Berry set started seeing usage, and even if it isn't Charti Berry it's so easy to take advantage of the free turns it gives. Choice Specs sets have difficulty breaking past basically every Ground-type and just gets trapped and removed by Dugtrio, and Scarf sets also get trapped by Dugtrio too. Nihilego's also dislikes Tyranitar and Latios seeing more usage, and its old checks are still very much here (and getting better), and its effectiveness is dropping, and therefore I think it should drop in the VR too.

Its STABs have never been spammable. From the beginning it's been walled by most ground and steel types. Such is the nature of rock/poison STAB. Hasn't changed.

Whether or not you "like" scarf sets is irrelevant to whether Nihilego should drop. The fact is that it's a damn good scarfer, arguably the second best after Keldeo (chomp competes with it for #2). Metagross's ban helped it a fuckton because it gave metagross a free switch every time it was in.

Volcarona's increased prominence helps it as well, because it reliably revenge kills every set bar Charti and leaves Charti vulnerable to all of the three best priority users - Gren, Pinsir, and Mawile.

Not to mention it's one of the best offensive checks to CharY there is, and CharY's rising in the meta as well.

While it certainly doesn't like being pursuit trapped by TTar, it loves sandstorm, it gives it a free AV and makes it specially bulky to all hell.

Yeah, it gets trapped by dug, but dug can't switch in on scarf (only relevant set Specs is lol) because it gets 2HKOed. And yes, latios sucks, but it can't switch into either of its STABs for fear of a 2HKO.

Also, it doesn't give Lando or Heatran a free switch in. They both take neutral damage from power gem and Lando is OHKOed (on a roll) by HP Ice. Heatran's Earth Power doesn't even OHKO, either.

Basically you've given very little in the realm of good reasons. Just saying "This thing isn't that good" or "it's effectiveness is dropping" does not make it so.

 

[Vert]

my man,,, nihilego is not a top 3 scarf user

keldeo, terrakion, garchomp, greninja, latios, and dugtrio are all better scarf users and sit above 100+ speed since they either provide a spammable move (keldeo & terrakion), excellent typing and bulk (garchomp), momentum (greninja), or utility in trick/defog/arena trap (latios & dugtrio). i'd even say tapu koko is a better choice scarf user but that's for another time. landorus-t and tapu lele are also better than nihilego. even if they do lose to volcarona, they are superior in terms of the utility and how annoying they are to teams, making them fine choices on teams with secondary checks such as zygarde and mantine. i'm expecting you to say some volcarona carry hidden power [ice] or mantine has a stealth rock weakness (!!!) to refute this point considering the nature of how you have been posting in this thread. how about i provide you this perspective? nihilego is not a volcarona check! volcarona can just bop nihilego on the switch with hidden power [ground] or shattered psyche. not to mention the prevalence of charti berry in tournament play. neither are any of the scarf users i listed volcarona checks since they all get shitted on if volcarona predicts the switch right which is often because a volcarona in play forces you to immediately go into your scarf user unless you have chansey or mantine.

the point is volcarona is fucking broken. it seems like i am leaving the point of the discussion since i am arguing pro-nihilego drop, but i am going to talk about volcarona for a moment. volcarona is literally the most disgusting pokemon in the tier. despite dropping in popularity, firium z sets are excellent as always, being able to nuke common defensive checks; it makes volcarona a threat without a quiver dance boost because of how powerful inferno overdrive is. charti berry destroys so many teams because people use imaginary checks like stone edge keldeo and nihilego which you are arguing as a check (and also top 3 scarf user lmao). shattered psyche is a different dynamic, completely blowing back toxapex, while the move itself has raw power to break weakened zygarde and the like without the use of hidden power [ice] for example.

yes, volcarona cannot run all these sets at once, yet volcarona always finds a way to completely bullshit its way past matchup because of how easy it is to support in terms of offensive synergy. the only thing you have to worry about is stealth rock.

and this leads me into my next point: "hazard removal is in a shitty state." i agree with this, if this was 3 months ago....stealth rock itself is not hard to remove when we have a huge variety of hazard removers right now like latios, mega scizor, mew, mantine, zapdos (even if 3 attacks is better, defog is still fine), tapu fini (i'm going to get shit, but please open your eyes and realize this is still viable), and y'all even arguing starmie as much as i detest this pokemon. to be honest, stealth rock is not the problem. spikes is. no one said stealth rock was hard to remove so i don't get where this argument is coming from.

i think articulation was one of the main problems since a lot of the pro-rise group for volcarona were not able to verbalize their reasoning, causing a great amount of controversy in this thread. now that i've done it, what can i say? look at some smogtour replays. that is all.
___

back to what you were saying, metagross leaving the tier does not automatically help nihilego since it led to the rise of other steel-types that appreciate metagross being gone. magearna is the primary recipient in terms of viability, which just recently rose to a+ as well. other pokemon that rose in usage that check nihilego are celesteela and tyranitar, the latter which traps nihilego. not to mention the addition of mega mawile in the metagame. i'm also going to bring up zygarde as dumb as that sounds because nihilego carry hidden power [ice]. the thing is, nihilego is hard to use. i'm going to get shit for this, but how something works in practice a 100% determines a pokemon's viability. look at fucking gengar and heatran which are scary as shit on paper but their performance in practice is what prevents them from rising to a+. i don't even need to explain how bad it is to be trapped by dugtrio which itself is preventing certain pokemon from rising in the rankings such as hoopa-u and kyurem-b.

nihilego is overrated and needs a drop. the only set that provides good utility is specs since it actually makes it a threat to offense (+spe boosts) and balance alike. it has immediate power unlike scarf which is why scarf nihilego finds itself useless, sometimes even late-game because of how things like mew can just come in and prevent this thing from getting a beast boost. at least with specs, you can pick off mons like mega heracross from a higher hp and not be a pokemon that sits there and relies on prediction, making it easy to read for the opponent and forcing broken shit like zygarde and the aforementioned magearna to come in and royally fuck up your team.

 

[Toshiro46]

my man,,, nihilego is not a top 3 scarf user

Oh, damn, someone should have told me.

keldeo, terrakion, garchomp, greninja, latios, and dugtrio are all better scarf users and sit above 100+ speed since they either provide a spammable move (keldeo & terrakion), excellent typing and bulk (garchomp), momentum (greninja), or utility in trick/defog/arena trap (latios & dugtrio). i'd even say tapu koko is a better choice scarf user but that's for another time.

Nihilego performs a different function than Gren and Dug. Gren grabs momentum and breaks with its coverage, dug traps. Scarf Nihilego is primarily a revenge killer as well as a SpAttacker check and a lategame wincon. Latios is rising in the meta for its specs set, scarf isn't as relevant and really only good for speed control, plus it's walled by steels just like Nihi lol.

In terms of the rkiller role, Nihi rkills basically every non-steel. Just going down the viability list (and assuming power gem/sludge wave/HP Ice/Thunder[bolt]), it rkills Lando, both Grens, standard set automotize Celesteela, Tangrowth, Lele, chipped Zygarde, Volcarona (unless Charti, but it leaves it open to priority if so), sash-broken Dug, slightly chipped Chomp, chipped Keldeo, Koko, Mega-Alakazam, CharY/X, Clefable... you get the point, probably. Well, hopefully. Poison is a fantastic rkilling type with the tapus running around, and lowkey BoltBeam to go along with its STAB is great. It hits a LOT of set up sweepers as well as several other hugely relevant threats (Mega Pinsir, anyone?). In terms of revenge killing, it's an incredible scarfer.

landorus-t and tapu lele are also better than nihilego.

Lando-T scarf is not really great compared to his other sets and Lele scarf suffers from low speed and is pretty underwhelming in terms of revenge killing set up sweepers. [/quote]

secondary checks such as zygarde and mantine. i'm expecting you to say some volcarona carry hidden power [ice] or mantine has a stealth rock weakness (!!!) to refute this point considering the nature of how you have been posting in this thread.

This is a ridiculous straw man argument and frankly irrelevant to the topic of Nihilego, especially coming from the person who said that shattered psyche from +1 Volc breaks Heatran.

how about i provide you this perspective? nihilego is not a volcarona check!

Lol you need to go back over what a check is.

Volcarona can just bop nihilego on the switch with hidden power [ground] or shattered psyche. not to mention the prevalence of charti berry in tournament play. neither are any of the scarf users i listed volcarona checks since they all get shitted on if volcarona predicts the switch right which is often because a volcarona in play forces you to immediately go into your scarf user unless you have chansey or mantine.

"If you predict right" arguments are some of the worst to grace this thread. You can win with basically whatever if you predict right. That doesn't mean that basically whatever is good. Take this OUPL replay for example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-285051. Gligar, Mega-Steelix, Tauros, and Kommo-o are all unranked, yet Ricardo near 6-0s his much more meta opponent. Why? He predicted right. That doesn't mean that the aforementioned mons are good, it means that Ricardo is.

the point is volcarona is fucking broken. it seems like i am leaving the point of the discussion since i am arguing pro-nihilego drop, but i am going to talk about volcarona for a moment. volcarona is literally the most disgusting pokemon in the tier. despite dropping in popularity, firium z sets are excellent as always, being able to nuke common defensive checks; it makes volcarona a threat without a quiver dance boost because of how powerful inferno overdrive is. charti berry destroys so many teams because people use imaginary checks like stone edge keldeo and nihilego which you are arguing as a check (and also top 3 scarf user lmao). shattered psyche is a different dynamic, completely blowing back toxapex, while the move itself has raw power to break weakened zygarde and the like without the use of hidden power [ice] for example. yes, volcarona cannot run all these sets at once, yet volcarona always finds a way to completely bullshit its way past matchup because of how easy it is to support in terms of offensive synergy. the only thing you have to worry about is stealth rock. and this leads me into my next point: "hazard removal is in a shitty state." i agree with this, if this was 3 months ago....stealth rock itself is not hard to remove when we have a huge variety of hazard removers right now like latios, mega scizor, mew, mantine, zapdos (even if 3 attacks is better, defog is still fine), tapu fini (i'm going to get shit, but please open your eyes and realize this is still viable), and y'all even arguing starmie as much as i detest this pokemon. to be honest, stealth rock is not the problem. spikes is. no one said stealth rock was hard to remove so i don't get where this argument is coming from.
i think articulation was one of the main problems since a lot of the pro-rise group for volcarona were not able to verbalize their reasoning, causing a great amount of controversy in this thread. now that i've done it, what can i say? look at some smogtour replays. that is all.

Cool. Not relevant to Nihilego. Great thoughts on Volc.

back to what you were saying, metagross leaving the tier does not automatically help Nihilego since it led to the rise of other steel-types that appreciate metagross being gone. magearna is the primary recipient in terms of viability, which just recently rose to a+ as well.

Yes, it does. Megagross was a huge fucking obstacle for it. Nihilego always had an issue with AV Mag and it was never one of the targets it wanted to rkill anyway. It being more common doesn't affect how well Nihilego revenge kills what it wants.

other pokemon that rose in usage that check nihilego are celesteela and tyranitar, the latter which traps nihilego. not to mention the addition of mega mawile in the metagame. i'm also going to bring up zygarde as dumb as that sounds because nihilego carry hidden power [ice].

Celesteela is a shaky as shit check considering how much thunder/tbolt does and automotive cele straight up loses to Nihi unless you're running a non standard set (like steelium z or some shit). TTar is an issue, too, which I addressed. Thing about both of these mons is that they're also fantastic partners for Nihilego. SpD Cele and Nihi check almost every relevant SpAttacker together and in general have pretty decent type synergy. Nihilego loves the sandstorm that TTar provides since it turns into an absolute SpD behemoth (+2 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego in Sand: 288-340 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

the thing is, nihilego is hard to use. i'm going to get shit for this, but how something works in practice a 100% determines a pokemon's viability. look at fucking gengar and heatran which are scary as shit on paper but their performance in practice is what prevents them from rising to a+.

Saying something does not make it so. If you're gonna say it's hard to use, you'd best explain how.

i don't even need to explain how bad it is to be trapped by dugtrio which itself is preventing certain pokemon from rising in the rankings such as hoopa-u and kyurem-b.

Dugtrio can't switch into Nihilego. Non-sash gets OHKOed by HP Ice, sash gets 2HKOed by Sludge wave. Due to this, it needs to come in on a sack. If it's doing that, Nihilego has already performed its function.

nihilego is overrated as shit and needs a drop.

Solid argument.

 

[GnuGnu]

I use Nihilego basically every game and it's nowhere near as bad a scarfer as made out to be. It definitely has its faults but I find it the most reliable revenge killer out of all those scarf mons listed (altho it comes at the cost of actual utility throughout the game unfortunately).

I guess that brings me to my next point: If you're gonna use Nihilego, you have to have a team that actually accounts for its weaknesses, otherwise it's an absolutely terrible momentum sink. You need a team that doesn't care much about letting basically every Steel type pokemon in for free, and a host of other pretty dangerous stuff like Zygarde. Even though most teams require a 100+ scarfer for things like Volcarona, I don't consider Nihilego very splashable at all as it brings quite a few problems that need to be catered for. Keldeo, for instance, is far more splashable (and it's a great scarf user although honestly think it's terrible at revenge killing compared to Nihilego). Despite all that, I really like using Nihilego, especially the piece of mind of using power gem instead of stone miss;.

A couple months ago I started using Stealth Rock in the last spot because I found myself never using that fourth move. Back then, I thought it was a cool niche role compression. A couple months later, I am willing to say that I honestly think it's almost a mandatory move on Scarf Nihilego (and honestly Garchomp too). Scarf rocks can be risky sometimes but the role compression it provides is really nice, and I personally think you have to take advantage of all the things Nihilego can do to make it worth the team slot. Everytime i've used Nihilego without Stealth rock, i keep wishing I had it, instead of doing a bit of chip damage to a steel type or a Hippowdon lol.

 

[Reviloja753]

In terms On Steel types, while Megagross has left and Celesteela is only a check (hello Thunder!), Magearna does wall Scarf Nihilego. It being Steel type means STAB does nothing, and it is not weak to Thunder, so yeah. Also, before you cry HP Fire....

252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 78-92 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

Meanwhile...

252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 228-270 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, everything I have said has been true forever. The difference now is that Magearna is a lot more common in OU with the ban of Megagross. However, something to mention is that an Earthquake from Megagross OHKOed while Flash Cannon 2HKOs. I'm not sure if that makes a difference, but I am just saying.

Honestly, I am neutral on Nihilego. It lost an extremely common check in Megagross, but gained a somewhat less common counter in Magearna. I'm not sure if dropping is a good idea right now, but I want to see more discussion before I make up my mind.

 

[Night Train Lane]

I, too, like to do 3% to the Magearna, Zygarde, Tyranitar and Celes with my scarfer :thinking:

scarf Nihilego isn't realistically revenge killing anything. Its main targets, like CharY, Pinsir, Volcarona, are all accompanied (usually) by heavy counterplay such a Dugtrio, Magnezone, and Charti; While also being hard checked by the plethora of steel types in the meta rn. Metagross was banned which, funnily enough, left it in a worse position in the meta. Magearna and Celes rising makes it an underwhelming pick as a pokemon. Since Mag is even more of a thing which forces you to run HP Fire, you're now countered by Zygarde and Garchomp. The former being broken, and the latter being a formidable breaker. Tyranitar is rising and giving free switches to any of these pokemon are huge headaches to deal with. It doesn't even beat volc anymore since Charti is either it's best set or really close to it.

Yes, it does. Megagross was a huge fucking obstacle for it. Nihilego always had an issue with AV Mag and it was never one of the targets it wanted to rkill anyway. It being more common doesn't affect how well Nihilego revenge kills what it wants.

ok the whole post was kind of wack imo But this is just embarrassing. A major counter increasing in both viability and usage is exactly what keeps it from doing what it wants. I honestly don't understand your thought process here. More viability = more usage. More usage = less of Nihilego doing anything. The same goes for Tyranitar and Celes. That's like saying Lando being more common doesn't stop Exca from doing what it wants. Like... this just baffles me. You could even say I'm... flabbergasted.

 

[Reviloja753]

I, too, like to do 3% to the Magearna, Zygarde, Tyranitar and Celes with my scarfer :thinking:

scarf Nihilego isn't realistically revenge killing anything. Its main targets, like CharY, Pinsir, Volcarona, are all accompanied (usually) by heavy counterplay such a Dugtrio, Magnezone, and Charti; While also being hard checked by the plethora of steel types in the meta rn. Metagross was banned which, funnily enough, left it in a worse position in the meta. Magearna and Celes rising makes it an underwhelming pick as a pokemon. Since Mag is even more of a thing which forces you to run HP Fire, you're now countered by Zygarde and Garchomp. The former being broken, and the latter being a formidable breaker. Tyranitar is rising and giving free switches to any of these pokemon are huge headaches to deal with. It doesn't even beat volc anymore since Charti is either it's best set or really close to it. ok the whole post was kind of wack imo But this is just embarrassing. A major counter increasing in both viability and usage is exactly what keeps it from doing what it wants. I honestly don't understand your thought process here. More viability = more usage. More usage = less of Nihilego doing anything. The same goes for Tyranitar and Celes. That's like saying Lando being more common doesn't stop Exca from doing what it wants. Like... this just baffles me. You could even say I'm... flabbergasted.

Celes is more of a check than a counter, as it can only handle Nihilego if it isn't locked into Thunder. If it isn't, Celes walls Nihilego, so don't think I am saying Celes is useless against Nihilego.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Doesn't change anything me or Vertex said against nihilego.

Literally every turn is a prediction with nihilego, that's why it's a sub par scarfer. Specs works cause you at least you have the higher potential to sweep with the boosts.