Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Fire Fist Ace]

Disagree on Manectric's B typing for the time being, and thinking B --> B+ purely for an ability to check or inflict big damage to a large portion of the B+ through A+ Pokemon with it's coverage of Fire, Ice, and Electric, combined with Intimidate and the ability to pivot out with Volt Switch.

It gets stopped pretty hard by defensive Lando-T and other fat mons, and faces huge competition from Koko as an Electric pivot, it can go hand-in-hand for a VoltTurn core with Electric Terrain.

 

[Avant Heim]

Suicune to B+------>Agree

Suicune checks a lot of the meta's most dominant mons,like:Ninja,Gearna(no tbolt)keldeo,TTar,Volca....
Suicune threaten offensive and defensive builds,as both have difficulty breaking through it because of Pressure PP Stall(exemple:when you have a locked mon)
Suicune's great defensive typing and incredible natural bulk allow Suicune to perform a Calm Mind sweeper role
The rest taking set can be used as a pivot,switching directly to attack that it checks like Mega Scizor and Zygarde
Suicune can also deter setup sweepers with Roar,working well with hazards on the field.

Edit: It's good to mension Suicune's ability to beat the most common weather on the tier,Rain
Also,Lele's drops are contribuing to Suicune,with the fact that Lando T(one of the things suicune beats) is onipresent on this tier right now(lmao)

 

[p2]

ok I still don't really get why Zygarde isn't S, there's been few explanations from the vr team explaining why Zygarde isn't an S rank mon and not to mention out of the few that have been posted, they are mostly false and really not applicable in the sense of keeping Zygarde in A+, posting that Tang or Bulu commonly checks is true, but the massive inconsistency in being a good catch-all for Zyg is overlooked. Tang and Bulu simply aren't consistent because Zyg blows past them with either it's own moves, support that is extremely splashable alongside it, or Zyg can just go and run completely different sets to invalidate their attempts at checking it completely.

It's easy to say yeah Zyg can't run every set it wants, but how are you determining this from preview? Zyg is consistently placing a tremendous amount of pressure on the players decisions even if it's not currently in play because you need to ensure your gameplan can accomodate stopping DD Zyg and CB Zyg. Yea CB is splashable but what if you switch in Tang and constantly put yourself on the back foot as it hits DD, you're faced with the decision of baiting out DDrake or staying in on an extra DD. Prediction arguments are bad but Zyg is very limiting if you try to tackle it from the wrong angle.

I just don't get it, I can understand the logic of a Magearna raise but why not raise Zyg alongside it? Similarly to Mag, Zyg is insanely splashable, versatile, punishing, and bulky and has more than enough defensive applications for how much of an offensive beast it can be. I really don't know whats stopping Zyg from being S because it's clearly a cut better than A+ at this point and it's just as good as Lando and Gears, if not better. I would seriously like a vr member to give an actual explanation for this instead of just ignoring the constant posting over Zyg to S.

Megacham is also absolutely not A-, but I'll save that for later.

L

 

[robopoke]

Does the viability of multiple Sets boost the viability of a mon? If so, then Magearna is considered S because of the multiple sets it can successfully run. Either the sweeping set with Trick Room or Shift Gear or the Assault Vest Set, which allows Magearna to eat hits. Landot-T has (from team preview) an unwallable offensive Set and an amazing defensive Set with either Rocky Helmet or Leftovers. It can still effectivly run Choice Scarf in SM, but it is definitely not the best anymore (in ORAS he was the best Scarfer, no doubt in my mind).

While Zygarde is extremly bulky, no Zygarde Sets main job is to take strong hits. AV Magearna can successfuly pivot against huge threats like Specs Gengar and bring back momentum. Defensive Lando-T can also successfully U-turn against physical sweepers and we all know how great Intimidate is because it literally makes your whole team bulkier. Zygarde lacks any form of defensive Set, because Dragon/Ground does not have useful resistances. You cannot use it as a wall because no reliable recovery and you cannot use it as Pivot, because no U-Turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass.

The thing that makes Zygarde unique is the multiple EV-spreads it can run. As example DD+Soft Sand 2HKOs Fini with +1 Thousand Arrows after rocks and can use Substitute to Sub on Chanseys. The Zygarde on njnps Webteam has a spread to always eat two Moonblast from Fini, thanks to Sitrus recovery and utilizes Coil to prevent from physical revengekillers from doing their job. Choice Band Zygarde can either go max Speed or (what I prefer) 260 Speed, reduce some EVs from Attack and invest the rest into Spdef to take HP Ices and Moonblasts.

From my viewpoint, Zygarde is less viable than Lando-T and Magearna but the difference is so minimal, that I do not mind Zygarde going S.

Also p2, were you the one who gave me all the Ls in the creative thread?

 

[njnp]

Megacham is also absolutely not A-, but I'll save that for later.

I'm for the rest of your post so no reason for me to respond to that but I'm sure my fellow ranking members will.

I wanna go over this don't want you to waste your time later. I don't think Mega Medicham is A for any reason and its A- is perfect for it in the current meta. Let me go over my reasons.

Mega Medicham has a hard time in this metagame vs the most popular styles. Most of the teams currently in sample teams have no issue with mega medicham. It has issues vs almost every team on that list. There is the aspect of rain and how it is highly pressured by this as well along with the fact unlike last gen you are generally forced to run jolly medicham. Jolly chams damage input isn't as impressive and is certainly noticeable from adamant.

I look at the ranking of A and look at the ranking of A-. I don't think mega medicham is better than any of the mons in A. I also don't think it's the best mon in even A-. As a balance breaker with mew and mega sableye around its outclassed by its bug counterpart heracross. You also have to consider the move medicham requires to put out major damage output that can leave you at 50% if you miss.

There is the aspect of how many ghosts are prevalent in the tier. You can't click hjk as freely as you could last gen and most of these ghosts force and pressure out medicham once they are in.

Medicham is very frail and that has always been the case generally least from watching and personal experience it is rarely granted free switch ins and just like last gen prefers momentum to come in. The issue with that is momentum is hard to come by in this generation because those ole momentum bringers are either outclassed/not that good currently or need to focus on other moves to handle other threats such as lando preferring protect for things such as your beloved zygarde.

Now, the positive of medicham is its coverage basically if you arent pure psychic generally medicham can take you or break you nicely. It is able to make advantage of popular mons such as tangrowth...force out zygarde...and do something that is rare ohko a toxapex. It has benefited from the terrains most noticeable the terrain from tapu koko giving its t punchs a nice boost basically making up for having to run jolly instead of adamant when it comes to rolls. There is also the fact you can run mega kick to surprise things like mixed defense mew and get your opponent on their heels.

Anyway, I feel like I covered enough on this topic. Hopefully, this helps give some people understanding why it won't rise. I don't see anything happening soon that will warrant a rise for reasons such as mega lopunny is coming and most of lopunnys counter measures are identical to medicham. Maybe lop will make the metagame slower for medicham but I still find it unlikely people forget prepping for the powerhouse you can't deny medicham is.

Medicham (Mega) Stay A- Rank

 

[ABR]

Since a lot of people keep posting about Zygarde and I was one of the main people pushing for it to stay A+, I'll offer my reasoning as to why I believe that.

While Zygarde is extremely splashable, it is simply not as good defensively or offensively as the other S rank mons. It isn't that scary of a breaker, and it certainly isn't hard to revenge kill. I don't think I need to tell anyone why CB is pretty easy to check, but I'll briefly list the reliable switchins to CB (mostly Thousand Arrows cuz outrage is hardly being clicked): Tangrowth, M-Bro, Defensive Lando (lefties preferably), M-Sciz, Bulu, M-Hera, Clefable, Mew, Alo, etc. CB isn't threatening enough by itself to warrant S, and it seems that most people are acknowledging this, but still see other sets like DD as making it S-worthy.

The thing with DD, however, is that it's still mostly checked by the same things defensively, and still easy to revenge. While Zygarde may end up killing something like Tangrowth at +2, this is a one time thing and it is still weakened in the process (like from hpice). So the tradeoff will involve something like using up a Z move once and ending up at 40%, only to not be threatening at all the remainder of the game. M-Bro will still fully beat it; Defensive Lando either beats it or does something similar to Tangrowth (but intims also), M-Sciz can get like 4 bullet punches off if it comes in on DD lol, Bulu obviously still beats it, both Clef sets beat it, Mew takes +1 drag-z and wisps/ibeams, Alo still toxics, and so on. Almost all of the checks to CB and DD overlap, so I don't get why you'd use the argument that scouting it's set is an impossible and important task - it's neither.

As for revengers themselves, there are the plentiful scarfers such as Latios, Greninja, Garchomp, and Lele that all revenge Zygarde with ease. And for CB sets, many pokemon like Zapdos also revenge very easily. Considering this, in addition to the aforementioned defensive counterplay, Zygarde just is not as threatening as people are making it out to be.

Now, if Zygarde is looked at in direct comparison to Lando/Magearna, it becomes even more evident why it shouldn't be S. Defensively, Landorus and Magearna are leagues better than Zygarde. Lando is a good check/counter to: Zard-X, Garchomp, Heracross, Marowak, Mawile, Mimikyu, Bulu, Tyranitar, Zygarde, and more. As for Magearna, the defensive utility of AV is pretty insane. It reasonably switches into: Zam, Clef, Gengar, both Grens, Hoopa, Kyurem, Latios, OTR/shift gearna, Mane, Nihilego, Lele, Koko, and so on. It even can volt on magma trans and take less than 45. Offensively speaking about these pokemon, there are probably 0 surefire counters to Lando besides M-Bro, Quagsire, and Skarmory (can still lose to smackdown sets). And for Magearna, both shift/otr are very powerful sets with about 3-4 possible z-moves, all hitting different targets. Mew is safe vs boltbeam fight-z, but loses to z-fleur. Heatrans safe vs the fleur set, but loses to fight-z. Celes is reasonable vs both of those, but fears elec-z. If anything requires multiple defensive answers and set scouting, it's Lando and Magearna, not Zygarde.

All in all, this pokemon just isn't on the same wavelength of potency as the current S rank mons.

 

[volx757]

... need to focus on other moves to handle other threats such as lando preferring protect for things such as your beloved zygarde.

Never seen or heard of a landot running protect, and I can't think of anything it does to help against zygarde in particular? Can you elaborate?
sry for short post i'm just interested in this

 

[megagen10]

Never seen or heard of a landot running protect, and I can't think of anything it does to help against zygarde in particular? Can you elaborate?
sry for short post i'm just interested in this

some special variants can carry hp ice for the zygarde matchup, and the only case I can see lando-t carrying protect would be if it is a lifeorb special set that wants to be able to stay on the field

 

[GMars]

Never seen or heard of a landot running protect, and I can't think of anything it does to help against zygarde in particular? Can you elaborate?
sry for short post i'm just interested in this

some special variants can carry hp ice for the zygarde matchup, and the only case I can see lando-t carrying protect would be if it is a lifeorb special set that wants to be able to stay on the field

Protect Lando-T gets extra Leftovers recovery + is able to scout choice locks (edit: and Z-moves)

 

[bludz]

To add to the above, it is most notable for helping with your Zygarde matchup and helping to 1v1 opposing Landos by protecting on the Z move or avoiding a 2HKO from opposing HP ice

 

[njnp]

Never seen or heard of a landot running protect, and I can't think of anything it does to help against zygarde in particular? Can you elaborate?
sry for short post i'm just interested in this

Thousand arrows is spammable and constantly wears you down so instead of being 3hkod protecting with leftovers puts you at around being 4hkod. There also is the aspect of protecting on dragoium z outrage from zygarde so it doesnt blow you away..This goes nice with toxic. It also helps with z move lando t as well etc...protect lando was popularized by ABR which has once again given lando another move to run

Here is the set to get an idea:

Bless Up (Landorus-Therian) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 28 SpD / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Mega Mawile ---> A- or B+

In my honest opinion, If Mega Medicham is moved down, so should Mawile. It just loses in so many matchups. Considering Lando-T is so common, I'm surprised Mawile hasn't been knocked down yet. While it certainly carries a lo of brute power, there are still several cheques and counters to M-Mawile. Among them include both Mega Charizards, Lando-T, Dugtrio, Excadrill, Mew (Will-O-Wisp hits like a tricking truck), and Heatran. Most of these Mon's have a significant place in the current meta, and are quite popular. Because of this, I would support a Mega Mawile drop

 

[Ryolain]

Mega Mawile ---> A- or B+

In my honest opinion, If Mega Medicham is moved down, so should Mawile. It just loses in so many matchups. Considering Lando-T is so common, I'm surprised Mawile hasn't been knocked down yet. While it certainly carries a lo of brute power, there are still several cheques and counters to M-Mawile. Among them include both Mega Charizards, Lando-T, Dugtrio, Excadrill, Mew (Will-O-Wisp hits like a tricking truck), and Heatran. Most of these Mon's have a significant place in the current meta, and are quite popular. Because of this, I would support a Mega Mawile drop

Disagreed, one thing M-Mawile has over M-Medi is that it works well on TR teams, which are all over the place right now. Specifically, it forms a nice Fairy spam core with OTR Magearna, who's just moved up to S. So while it's lost viability on some teams it's gained on others, which I think nets out to it being fine where it is.

 

[volx757]

Disagreed, one thing M-Mawile has over M-Medi is that it works well on TR teams, which are all over the place right now. Specifically, it forms a nice Fairy spam core with OTR Magearna, who's just moved up to S. So while it's lost viability on some teams it's gained on others, which I think nets out to it being fine where it is.

I'd like to add that a significant niche maw has over medi is that it can setup. A +2 Mawile in the late game is terrifying, and forces you to essentially guess correctly your way to victory or just lose. Medi can't claim this ability. Also fairy is a slightly more spammable stab than fighting (resisted by lando) or psychic (has an immunity and is also resisted by steel like fairy). A hypercutter mawile can put lando in a place where it can't switch in after the first time, otherwise it dies to play rough on switchin and sucker followup. Or it can just run ice punch and bop it on the switch (if AoA).

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 220-261 (57.5 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Toshiro46]

Mega Mawile ---> A- or B+

In my honest opinion, If Mega Medicham is moved down, so should Mawile. It just loses in so many matchups. Considering Lando-T is so common, I'm surprised Mawile hasn't been knocked down yet. While it certainly carries a lo of brute power, there are still several cheques and counters to M-Mawile. Among them include both Mega Charizards, Lando-T, Dugtrio, Excadrill, Mew (Will-O-Wisp hits like a tricking truck), and Heatran. Most of these Mon's have a significant place in the current meta, and are quite popular. Because of this, I would support a Mega Mawile drop

None of these mons are reliable defensive checks to Mawile besides Mew and Heatran. Even Defensive Lando T is OHKOed by a -1 Ice Punch. And on Trick Room, Mawile's most prominent domain, they can't even touch it.

---

The problem with Zygarde is that it's weak. 100 base attack isn't super impressive even at +1, really. Jolly hits 448.5 atk at +1 which isn't much more than Lando's base Adamant 427. Adamant is better, but not used on DD sets. Thousand Arrows can make sure it hits almost everything neutrally, but it can't fix its attack stat.

Compared to Mag and Lando, they both have power right out of the gate with 130/145 SpA/Atk stats respectively. And they also have great defensive typings. Dragon/Ground isn't terrible, but it doesn't stack up. And what's even worse is that Zygarde's ability is completely useless, while Magearna's is an incredible sweeping tool and Lando's is one of the better defensive abilities in the game.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

Since a lot of people keep posting about Zygarde and I was one of the main people pushing for it to stay A+, I'll offer my reasoning as to why I believe that.

While Zygarde is extremely splashable, it is simply not as good defensively or offensively as the other S rank mons. It isn't that scary of a breaker, and it certainly isn't hard to revenge kill. I don't think I need to tell anyone why CB is pretty easy to check, but I'll briefly list the reliable switchins to CB (mostly Thousand Arrows cuz outrage is hardly being clicked): Tangrowth, M-Bro, Defensive Lando (lefties preferably), M-Sciz, Bulu, M-Hera, Clefable, Mew, Alo, etc. CB isn't threatening enough by itself to warrant S, and it seems that most people are acknowledging this, but still see other sets like DD as making it S-worthy.

The thing with DD, however, is that it's still mostly checked by the same things defensively, and still easy to revenge. While Zygarde may end up killing something like Tangrowth at +2, this is a one time thing and it is still weakened in the process (like from hpice). So the tradeoff will involve something like using up a Z move once and ending up at 40%, only to not be threatening at all the remainder of the game. M-Bro will still fully beat it; Defensive Lando either beats it or does something similar to Tangrowth (but intims also), M-Sciz can get like 4 bullet punches off if it comes in on DD lol, Bulu obviously still beats it, both Clef sets beat it, Mew takes +1 drag-z and wisps/ibeams, Alo still toxics, and so on. Almost all of the checks to CB and DD overlap, so I don't get why you'd use the argument that scouting it's set is an impossible and important task - it's neither.

As for revengers themselves, there are the plentiful scarfers such as Latios, Greninja, Garchomp, and Lele that all revenge Zygarde with ease. And for CB sets, many pokemon like Zapdos also revenge very easily. Considering this, in addition to the aforementioned defensive counterplay, Zygarde just is not as threatening as people are making it out to be.

Now, if Zygarde is looked at in direct comparison to Lando/Magearna, it becomes even more evident why it shouldn't be S. Defensively, Landorus and Magearna are leagues better than Zygarde. Lando is a good check/counter to: Zard-X, Garchomp, Heracross, Marowak, Mawile, Mimikyu, Bulu, Tyranitar, Zygarde, and more. As for Magearna, the defensive utility of AV is pretty insane. It reasonably switches into: Zam, Clef, Gengar, both Grens, Hoopa, Kyurem, Latios, OTR/shift gearna, Mane, Nihilego, Lele, Koko, and so on. It even can volt on magma trans and take less than 45. Offensively speaking about these pokemon, there are probably 0 surefire counters to Lando besides M-Bro, Quagsire, and Skarmory (can still lose to smackdown sets). And for Magearna, both shift/otr are very powerful sets with about 3-4 possible z-moves, all hitting different targets. Mew is safe vs boltbeam fight-z, but loses to z-fleur. Heatrans safe vs the fleur set, but loses to fight-z. Celes is reasonable vs both of those, but fears elec-z. If anything requires multiple defensive answers and set scouting, it's Lando and Magearna, not Zygarde.

All in all, this pokemon just isn't on the same wavelength of potency as the current S rank mons.

i completely disagree with your reasoning

what makes zygarde S rank in my eyes is the fact that it combines both its offensive and defensive presence in one and always consistently puts in work no matter the match up. theres a variety of sets zygarde can run which necessitates different answers for it depending on the set which you're completely neglecting and so thats why i dont agree with the list of switch ins you specified

for instance you're referencing mega bro as a hard switch in to the CB set but if that doesnt have ice beam toxic + coil zygarde can just status it and then stall it out since scald cant even break its sub and you slowly die.... alomomola is clearly set up bait for the coil set... you actually dont even mention the coil set at all in your explanation which idk why since its one of its main iconic sets. mega hera may be a 1k arrow switch in but if it lacks SD and you're packing bulk (and not much speed) zygarde can just coil up and you actually struggle to break it with defense boosts. mega scizor is the shittiest answer to subcoil zygarde and if it lacks SD which a lot dont even carry nowadays its also set up bait as well. & obviously if we're talking about unaware clef it may wall dd/coil sets but MG ones actually fail to wall it considering moonblast doesnt even 2hko coil variants and then zygarde can still boost up and break past you. unaware does fine for the most part but if its CB and sr is up 1k arrows actually has a chance to 2hko that as well especially if theres some chip damage involved

now about your whole section about being able to revenge DD zygarde at +1/+1 this also fails to acknowledge the fact that you probably arent going to hard switch into your scarf latios/chomp/greninja/lele straight away since if its the prominent CB set all those mons get mauled. no, whats the most realistic scenario here? you're probably going to go into something like a tangrowth expecting CB/coil and then it reveals dragon dance. now, assuming its DD z-outrage, which btw only needs one boost to OHKO av tangrowth (+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 349-412 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock), it doesnt NEED to kill you right away, since zygardes bulky af and its a fucking tangrowth lol. it can just stay in, tank the HP ice which does laughable damage even with absolutely 0 bulk investment (0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 196-232 (54.9 - 64.9%)), and then proceed to blow you back the next turn. now, your main 1k arrows switch in is dead, AND now you have a +2/+2 zygarde standing in front of you so your scarf latios/chomp/greninja/lele or whatever cant even RK it and you're fucked. i dont understand exactly how zygarde is easy to revenge kill when setting up isnt exactly hard at all considering zygardes natural bulk and plethora of resistances

also you're completely underselling all the defensive merits zygarde brings to a game while completely glorifying all of lando-t's & magearna's.... zygarde's natural excellent bulk and typing means it can be a defensive stop/check to a whole list of mons. for instance, its one of the most consistent and splashable switch ins to zard-y, it also deals with non hp ice volcarona easily while landorus-t obviously cant and gets roasted. the fire resistance actually helps a lot in comparison to landorus-t because it means its able to switch on the likes of heatran and marowak-alola much more easily and obviously threatens them both out. defensive coil ones can take on HP ices rather easily and so it can act as a halt to volt switching mons such as tapu koko & mega manectric. defensive coil zygarde is also an excellent and splashable switch in to gengar (we all know switch ins to that mon are incredibly rare to find), bisharp, mvenu, magnezone, nihilego, among others

zygarde can definitely compete with lando-t & magearna defensively, packs just as much versatility as them both which requires several answers to it, has significant breaking/cleaning power, and in general its just a top tier threat which exerts a lot of pressure in every game. it has transformed teambuilding as a whole and altered the metagame substantially enough and so i think a rise to S rank is more than warranted

 

[robopoke]

i completely disagree with your reasoning

what makes zygarde S rank in my eyes is the fact that it combines both its offensive and defensive presence in one and always consistently puts in work no matter the match up. theres a variety of sets zygarde can run which necessitates different answers for it depending on the set which you're completely neglecting and so thats why i dont agree with the list of switch ins you specified

for instance you're referencing mega bro as a hard switch in to the CB set but if that doesnt have ice beam toxic + coil zygarde can just status it and then stall it out since scald cant even break its sub and you slowly die.... alomomola is clearly set up bait for the coil set... you actually dont even mention the coil set at all in your explanation which idk why since its one of its main iconic sets. mega hera may be a 1k arrow switch in but if it lacks SD and you're packing bulk (and not much speed) zygarde can just coil up and you actually struggle to break it with defense boosts. mega scizor is the shittiest answer to subcoil zygarde and if it lacks SD which a lot dont even carry nowadays its also set up bait as well. & obviously if we're talking about unaware clef it may wall dd/coil sets but MG ones actually fail to wall it considering moonblast doesnt even 2hko coil variants and then zygarde can still boost up and break past you. unaware does fine for the most part but if its CB and sr is up 1k arrows actually has a chance to 2hko that as well especially if theres some chip damage involved

now about your whole section about being able to revenge DD zygarde at +1/+1 this also fails to acknowledge the fact that you probably arent going to hard switch into your scarf latios/chomp/greninja/lele straight away since if its the prominent CB set all those mons get mauled. no, whats the most realistic scenario here? you're probably going to go into something like a tangrowth expecting CB/coil and then it reveals dragon dance. now, assuming its DD z-outrage, which btw only needs one boost to OHKO av tangrowth (+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 349-412 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock), it doesnt NEED to kill you right away, since zygardes bulky af and its a fucking tangrowth lol. it can just stay in, tank the HP ice which does laughable damage even with absolutely 0 bulk investment (0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 196-232 (54.9 - 64.9%)), and then proceed to blow you back the next turn. now, your main 1k arrows switch in is dead, AND now you have a +2/+2 zygarde standing in front of you so your scarf latios/chomp/greninja/lele or whatever cant even RK it and you're fucked. i dont understand exactly how zygarde is easy to revenge kill when setting up isnt exactly hard at all considering zygardes natural bulk and plethora of resistances

also you're completely underselling all the defensive merits zygarde brings to a game while completely glorifying all of lando-t's & magearna's.... zygarde's natural excellent bulk and typing means it can be a defensive stop/check to a whole list of mons. for instance, its one of the most consistent and splashable switch ins to zard-y, it also deals with non hp ice volcarona easily while landorus-t obviously cant and gets roasted. the fire resistance actually helps a lot in comparison to landorus-t because it means its able to switch on the likes of heatran and marowak-alola much more easily and obviously threatens them both out. defensive coil ones can take on HP ices rather easily and so it can act as a halt to volt switching mons such as tapu koko & mega manectric. defensive coil zygarde is also an excellent and splashable switch in to gengar (we all know switch ins to that mon are incredibly rare to find), bisharp, mvenu, magnezone, nihilego, among others

zygarde can definitely compete with lando-t & magearna defensively, packs just as much versatility as them both which requires several answers to it, has significant breaking/cleaning power, and in general its just a top tier threat which exerts a lot of pressure in every game. it has transformed teambuilding as a whole and altered the metagame substantially enough and so i think a rise to S rank is more than warranted

Spdef Coil Zygarde is like a first month thing and it is such a bad Set. There is no reason to ever run that Set over the more consistent and viable Choice Band, DD, offensive Coil or Coil+DD Sets. Zygarde without any attackinvestment is pissweak and every defensive team has some kind of supereffective hit to break max Spdef Zygardes Sub. Defensive Lando-T and AV Magearna can at least Volt/Turn, get up Rocks or do solid damage with 326 attack Earthquake or potentially 394 atk Fleur Cannon. Zygardes 0 attack Thousand Arrow can fail to 2hko Gren which is kinda embarassing. I think we should focus on only the offensive Sets.


edit: I want to add something regarding Zygardes sweeping capabilities.

Zygarde is just not as threatening as Magearna. It is one of the few mons who does not enjoy the introduction of terrains. While Misty Terrain is nice to avoid Scaldburns, it weakens the power of Z-Outrage. Fini, AV Tang, Landot are still everywhere and Bulu is seeing so much love lately. The defensive counterplay for DD Zygarde is vast and when you build a team you cant just slap in AV Tang and expect to be safe from Zygarde.

Magearna is a beast after a Shift Gear and its godly typing allows you to take half damage from Fake Out, Extreme Speed compared to Zygarde. Even Mega Abomasnow is seeing some usage right now who is annoying with Ice Shard. Zygarde also does not resist Sucker Punch and Intimidate forces you to be good at predicting.

I dont think it is correct to put Zygarde on the same level as Magearna or Landot

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

SubCoil Zygarde is a bulky sweeper. Think of it like Calm Mind Clefable: its job is to set up over multiple turns, becoming harder and harder to break. Being weak initially doesn't matter. No reason to run that set over Band or DD? Suppose you need a bulky stall breaker? It can muscle through stall teams easily once Clefable and Tangrowth are gone. I admit the set is not as threatening as the Band or DD sets, but saying it's bad is simply not true. Offensive Coil...is that even a thing? I've never once seen that set (I'm guessing it's Coil, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed and Outrage / Iron Tail). Why would you run that over Dragon Dance?

 

[robopoke]

SubCoil Zygarde is a bulky sweeper. Think of it like Calm Mind Clefable: its job is to set up over multiple turns, becoming harder and harder to break. Being weak initially doesn't matter. No reason to run that set over Band or DD? Suppose you need a bulky stall breaker? It can muscle through stall teams easily once Clefable and Tangrowth are gone. I admit the set is not as threatening as the Band or DD sets, but saying it's bad is simply not true. Offensive Coil...is that even a thing? I've never once seen that set (I'm guessing it's Coil, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed and Outrage / Iron Tail). Why would you run that over Dragon Dance?

Clef has access to reliable recovery but as you agreed with me, the offensive Sets on Zygarde are more viable. Offensive Coil is a Set. I think False posted it in creative Sets. It was Sub, Coil, Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed. While I do think Dragon Dance is better, Coil also has its merits because you can Coil up against physical attackers and kill them with Espeed. You have to rely on Espeed for faster threats (Gren, Koko etc.) and Thousand Arrows for bulky stuff. It is also one of the few sets that can beat Tapu Bulu without Iron Tail if you Coil on the switch.

 

[Kshuaib734]

People who keep complaining about certain rankings should realize that just because a pokemon keeps walling/sweeping your team it doesn't mean it has that effect on others. You have little right to make judgement unless you consistently play with 5+ varied teams.

 

[Subject 18]

I guess I'll chime in on some stuff as well. Zygarde should not be raised to S-rank and everything you really need to understand why is outlined in ABR's post. However, I do want to address some of the points brought up to counter what ABR said. People really oversell just how good and common sets like DD and SubCoil actually are. I mentioned and address this in the last post here, but I can go over those again as I don't feel like any of that has changed. Dragon Dance is really only a ladder set from my experience, like outside of the ladder this set sees next to 0 usage because people understand how to this set works, and play around properly. Think about it, if you have a team with LandoT/Tang in the back and you see Zygarde DD's up, it screams Devastating Drake and at that point. In the case of Landorus, it doesn't really beat it as reliably as people say because lefties + Protect is becoming fairly common and reduces it's effectiveness. Same idea goes for Tangrowth, it's fairly easy to see then Z move coming pivoting to Steel/Fairy type to tank and now your Z-move is gone and the jig is up. Now what? While you can say "Oh, but why not DD again on the switch," how is this reliable though? You're now banking and on 50/50s, which is not reliable enough to justify in how effective this set is.

I won't really address ToxicCoil, since robopoke alreay addressed why it's not very good, I used to think that Zygarde was good enough to be S-rank, but realistically it is not. It has a number of issues and lacks the versatility that people claim it does. Band is legit the only consistent set, while other sets do exist (DD, DD + Coil, CoilToxic) none of those consistently pull their weights in actual games to warrant being considered on the same level as Magearna and Landorus-T. Like ABR mentioned both of those are much more threatening, versatile and consistent than Zygarde has shown to be this entire gen. A lot of it's effectiveness is overblown because of what has been used and seen on the ladder but never been consistent enough on a bigger stage to really prove to me nor half the VR team that it should be S-rank.


On a different note, Volcarona should probably drop from A+, in my opinion. I admit that I along with a few others overrated it because of how much of a pain it is to handle, but after some time my opinion has changed. Volcarona is more of a teambuilding constraint than an in battle threat. With the rise of Tyranitar, Pinsir and Mantine, Volcarona struggle more and more to consistently pull off sweeps and threaten teams. This doesn't even account for the amount of support you need to provide for it to even function. With this I think it should drop to A from A+.


To hit on some of the discussion points, I think Mega Tyranitar should be A- rather than B+. I think it's much better then anything in B+ right now, the combination of bulk + power is a lot for teams to handle right. Mega Tar doesn't really struggle in finding room to set up and once it has set up the number of Scarfers that can actually kill it is really low, that list only includes Keldeo and Terrakion, who is not used at all. Other offensive grounds struggle to beat it 1v1, Garchomp can't revenge kill it, Landorus-T only kills if it's running Earth Plate, CB Zygarde can't kill without SR being up. I think, it's ability to be as bulky as it is and how strong it is enough to be in A-.

 

[Toshiro46]

On a different note, Volcarona should probably drop from A+, in my opinion. I admit that I along with a few others overrated it because of how much of a pain it is to handle, but after some time my opinion has changed. Volcarona is more of a teambuilding constraint than an in battle threat. With the rise of Tyranitar, Pinsir and Mantine, Volcarona struggle more and more to consistently pull off sweeps and threaten teams. This doesn't even account for the amount of support you need to provide for it to even function. With this I think it should drop to A from A+.

Finally. Volcarona requires more support than most mons in A and all mons in A+.

I support a Mega TTar rise. There's only three fighting-type mons in the A ranks, and two are breakers that have little to no bearing on its ability to sweep. It has better natural bulk than fucking Toxapex with an attack stat of 164 and a workable speed tier for DD. Mawile, Magearna, and Keldeo are the only A mons that resist its STAB combo, and fighting type coverage moves aren't super common right now. At +1, Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Mega Zam, and Ash Greninja are its only reliable revenge killers. At +2... good luck.

 

[matthewc20090]

-->b+
this thing has been on the rise for a while now and i think its time its moved up. compared to the some of b, charizard x and excadrill are hot garbage because of landot, suicune is pretty inconsistent vs some teams, and smeargle's only usable on webs. these are just a few examples, but i wish to illustrate that mantine is much more consistent than the aforementioned b rank holders. first off, we all know mantine's main niche is to wall volcarona. this is great for many teams as they don't need to run a base 100+ speed scarfer. with volcarona being the threat that it is, its nice to not have to have scarf garchomp or scarf edge keldeo on every team. next, the rise in rain, especially on the ladder, helps mantine as mantine completely shits on rain. finally, the mons mantine can wall are very common (keldeo, ash gren, zardy, volcarona, non-subtoxic heatran) meaning mantine is rarely dead weight.

 

[cityscapes]

honestly i think that the arguments for zyg to stay a+ are kind of weak

Spdef Coil Zygarde is like a first month thing and it is such a bad Set. There is no reason to ever run that Set over the more consistent and viable Choice Band, DD, offensive Coil or Coil+DD Sets. Zygarde without any attackinvestment is pissweak and every defensive team has some kind of supereffective hit to break max Spdef Zygardes Sub. Defensive Lando-T and AV Magearna can at least Volt/Turn, get up Rocks or do solid damage with 326 attack Earthquake or potentially 394 atk Fleur Cannon. Zygardes 0 attack Thousand Arrow can fail to 2hko Gren which is kinda embarassing. I think we should focus on only the offensive Sets.

sub coil zyg is a perfectly legitimate set because of how much the existence of the cb set helps it. for example you listed mons such as magearna and gren as answers to coil zyg but none of those switch into cb thousand arrows. also magearna is not an answer to zyg when it can just stall out fleur cannon with substitute for spa drops; mage needs ice beam to win. how does it volt switch out of a zygarde ?_? additionally, common cb switchins like bro, lando, unaware clef etc just get set up on and/or worn down if zyg has toxic (best fourth move imo).

Think about it, if you have a team with LandoT/Tang in the back and you see Zygarde DD's up, it screams Devastating Drake. In the case of Landorus, it doesn't really beat it as reliably as people say because lefties + Protect is becoming fairly common and reduces it's effectiveness. Same idea goes for Tangrowth, it's fairly easy to see then Z move coming pivoting to Steel/Fairy type to tank and now your Z-move is gone and the jig is up. Now what? While you can say "Oh, but why not DD again on the switch," how is this reliable though? You're now banking and on 50/50s, which is not reliable enough to justify in how effective this set is.

this argument is stupid. tang + steel vs. zyg is a prediction reliant situation and should not be used to make a point. if anything the 50/50 is in the zyg user's favor, like if zyg uses karrows or dd and growth stays in then it takes like 50% (?) from hp ice, while if the growth player predicts wrong then they lose a mon or zyg gets another dance and it's all over.

the lando argument is more legitimate, because lando actually takes +0 drake fairly well even if it doesn't protect (and hp ice does a chunk back) pressuring zyg to dance again. protect lando hates facing toxic zyg variants (coil or cb) however making it a bit of an inconsistent answer because toxic causes it to lose so much longevity.

i am aware that zyg can't run all these sets at once but it honestly has so few consistent answers due to how cb covers so much of the meta and how all of the usual switchins despise sub/toxic/ddrake. because of this i believe that it should rise to S

i agree with volc to A as well, it has a bunch of cool lures it can use but none of them really hit that much, plus consistent answers to it are becoming more common. like i'm pretty sure ttar can take on even bug buzz variants if it's healthy. everyone prepares for it so it rarely actually sweeps, like a lesser version of zard x syndrome

indifferent on mega ttar to a-. like i get how it's really bulky and stuff but how does it somehow stay at full health while setting up? like it has so many weaknesses to the stab moves of high ranked stuff. i would like to see some replays of this thing in action before forming an opinion on it

 

[Mr.Goxel]

The Zygarde arguments are so flawed for S. For example the person above me says that DD and Sub coil abuse the choice band set to an extent. But it's pretty damn easy to tell what set it is by looking at the team. No strong physical breakers? It's probably choice band. No late game cleaners? Probably sub coil or DD.

At the end of the day the arguments have turned into if this happens then zygarde can do this and then if they do this zyagrde can still do this and that's that those things should beat it but not if it runs a set you've never heard of... you get the point.
In my opinion if we have to theorymon this hard to justify an S ranking then it shouldn't be S.