Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Tapu Lele is not handled by Chansey, the stallbreaker set is still very common and easily beats Chansey 1v1 and specs Psyshock straight up 2HKOs in Psychic Terrain. On the other hand most Sableye are running Protect so that second point is a non issue I suppose.

It's also by no means a splashable Pokemon as it's essentially a momentum sink on anything that isn't a stall team. Sure it may be the go-to mega for stall but it's impractical outside of stall. Mega Sableye also doesn't eliminate the need for a secondary means of hazard control as things like Heatran, Landorus-T, and Clefable still get rocks up on him which can be a death sentence for stall. It does eliminate the need for double Defog however.

I dunno why we're comparing Sableye to Tangrowth, they do two completely separate things and Tangrowth is arguably a lot better and a lot more splashable in the current metagame.

I don't really have an opinion on Mega Sableye, I just feel like a lot of your points are flawed (or downright incorrect).
 
ThatMangoLife said:
It think it is as splashable mon as pokemon in tier A as in my opinion like it was last gen, not hard to fit him on a team, pairs well often with a steel type to cover the only fairy weakness. With Hazards (and thus toxapex, spikes greninja, ferrothorn), status,Dugtrio, leech seed (particularly on ferrothorn and Celesteela) running rampant, provides arguably the best check. Also what I've found is having a mega sableye on the team reduces the need for a defogger, allowing greater freedom in teambuilding, with good defoggers scarce in OU (Tapu fini being the best IMO which has lost viability of late, and Latios always a risky one with pursuit trap and giving a free switch in to magearna which has risen in usage).
Saying that Mega-Sableye is a splashable mon is just entirely incorrect. Mega-Sab shouldn't be used anything but stall archetypes, and even then it's still somewhat struggling in the recent month or so to hold it's place in stall.
 
Tapu Lele is not handled by Chansey, the stallbreaker set is still very common and easily beats Chansey 1v1 and specs Psyshock straight up 2HKOs in Psychic Terrain. On the other hand most Sableye are running Protect so that second point is a non issue I suppose.

It's also by no means a splashable Pokemon as it's essentially a momentum sink on anything that isn't a stall team. Sure it may be the go-to mega for stall but it's impractical outside of stall. Mega Sableye also doesn't eliminate the need for a secondary means of hazard control as things like Heatran, Landorus-T, and Clefable still get rocks up on him which can be a death sentence for stall. It does eliminate the need for double Defog however.

I dunno why we're comparing Sableye to Tangrowth, they do two completely separate things and Tangrowth is arguably a lot better and a lot more splashable in the current metagame.

I don't really have an opinion on Mega Sableye, I just feel like a lot of your points are flawed (or downright incorrect).
I'm wrong in saying that it's handled by chansey, however the stallbreaker set isn't too common in my opinion really, though I agree it exists.Pairing with a steel type instead makes it harder for Lele.

Heatran doesn't get rocks up on the specially defensive set, sure it resists toxic and will-o-wisp but can't be taunted, and can recover on heatran. Yes it can eventually be forced out by risk of a lava plume burn or running out of protects. As for trapping Sableye with magma storm, it only does 41.7% max with timid air max sp.A heatran. Landorus fears the burn by will-o-wisp so staying in isn't too desirable. It's not a momentum sink when the opponent has to fear toxic, will-o-wisp on switch in. And physical attackers find it difficult to set up due to existence of foul play too. It doesn't do anything to clefable, which hasn't changed since ORAS. The best set IMO (and I'm sure I'll get bashed for this) is Will-o-wisp, Toxic, Foul Play, Recover, partly because it threatens more pokemon, and is less momentum draining.

Statistically it is one of the best special or physical walls, with the appropriate movesets, resistances, and just one weakness. I think it's a bit strange to say it's impractical outside stall, when it has been utilised effectively in the past and still can be. There's just few reasons for that. It's not as good as ORAS where eventually banned to ubers but it's still A level worthy. An extra defogger is appreciated, but Sableye finds use in teams which don't want to include a defogger, itself isn't weak to rocks. It is definitely more difficult to stack hazards on the field with a Mega Sableye at the opposite end. It's not a suitable replacement for a defogger say if you're using something like volcarona on your team, you need a more reliable, but in a non SR-weak team it finds it can be sufficient.

Only compared Tangrowth as it was one of the pokemon in Tier A. Quite frankly Sableye doesn't have many pokemon that can do quite like what it can do,which while a personal preference to some degree, I tend to rate Pokemon a little higher than can bring something unique.

I've probably gone a bit overboard in listing its advantages. Its' main reasons for rising is the rise of dugtrio, hazard stacking, continued ability on stall, and finally it actually works pretty well against stall too.
 
Saying that Mega-Sableye is a splashable mon is just entirely incorrect. Mega-Sab shouldn't be used anything but stall archetypes, and even then it's still somewhat struggling in the recent month or so to hold it's place in stall.
I disagree with this Sableye has found plenty of usage in the past off stall, such as the sableye talonflame core in the past. While talonflame isn't viable anymore due to the nerf, there's little reason why Sableye can't be used in the same way IMO, it still works pretty well on balanced teams.
 

Leo

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I disagree with this Sableye has found plenty of usage in the past off stall, such as the sableye talonflame core in the past. While talonflame isn't viable anymore due to the nerf, there's little reason why Sableye can't be used in the same way IMO, it still works pretty well on balanced teams.
Why are you bringing up an XY core in this thread? Sableye doesn't see usage outside of Stall in the current meta, the fact that it was used in balance 2 years ago is irrelevant. Don't bring up Sableye balance unless you find a relevant example of Sableye being used outside of Stall (which you might do, but Sableye Talon is not the right example)
 
I disagree with this Sableye has found plenty of usage in the past off stall, such as the sableye talonflame core in the past. While talonflame isn't viable anymore due to the nerf, there's little reason why Sableye can't be used in the same way IMO, it still works pretty well on balanced teams.
lol are you seriously defending yourself by bringing up an old ass oras core,,, plus saying that Mega-Sableye can replace the role of a defogger is pretty incoherent for a few reasons;
  1. There is honestly no reason not to run deffogers at the moment, with Mew and Zapdos being so good and splashable to most teams. There are obviously others that can serve the role sufficiently like lati and skarm
  2. Adding on to my point about how it shouldn't be used on any other play-style besides stall, it loses an incredible amount of momentum even for these bulky offensive teams with tang, lando, bulu and tran etc etc because it's literally just Magearna bait
I'm really not trying to sound rude becuase i want everyone to become more involved, but it really seems you aren't too familiar with the current state of the meta, in fact i would actually be in favour of Mega-Sableye due to it's lack of worth on the majority of teams but hey that's just me ~
 
Not to be a bubble burster on this dugtrio nom support to a+, but exactly changed for it to suddenly rise to A+??

I mean the two posts above me only basically stated stuff dugtrio already did from the start (having a myriad of sets, trapping and eliminating threats such as mag/chansey/pex and so on)
its not like the metagame suddenly is going in its favor or anything, thats basically stuff dugtrio did since the start of sun and moon



I disagree with a rise, nothing has basically changed for dugtrio for it to rise. Yea arena trap is extremely unique and maybe even uncompetitive, but is it enough to place it with meta defining threats such as gren, steela and zygarde that plough through teams with minimal support? imo no


On the other hand i support Charizard rising to A+, metagame trends have been kind to it as it can take advantage of the rise of fatter balance teams with easy switchins into mons like mew or tangrowth and basically come in and nuke everything in the tier with its extremely powerful fire blasts/solar beam bar a few mons such as chansey and mantine. Plus its synergy with dugtrio really pushes it over the edge Its easily one of the most powerful megas there is

I also agree with the rise of Mantine to B+ basically for the same reasons as what riddikulusness said
When those mons are growing in viability to this day (Pex has been nominated to A+ previously and Magearna is one of the two best mons in the tier), it stands to reason that Dugtrio will grow in viability to eliminate those mons.

Zard-Y is so effective in this meta because it has very limited switchins. Chansey and Toxapex are two of the most prominent ones, and as you said, they both get trapped and eliminated by Dugtrio. Everything that isn't Mantine that can sponge a hit from Zard-Y gets destroyed by Dugtrio, and everything Dugtrio can and should target and eliminate paves the way for Zard-Y to effectively sweep by sheer power alone. And though I agree that it should rise to A+, it should rise to A+ alongside the other half of such a brutal offensive core.

Dugtrio is easily as meta-defining as stuff in A+. Heck, I'd argue it defines the meta as much as Lando and Magearna, because its role is becoming that much more essential from day to day.
 
Fairy Stab still isn't that common in Sun and Moon. Tapu Koko's thunderbolt does similar damage to dazzling gleam while holding magnet under electric terrain, doing just over half to the max Special defensive set. Dazzling gleam with life orb does 58.8-70%. Hence it's quite risky to switch it onto a Mega Sableye if he's carrying toxic (which I recommend), as he can recover stall you. Noticeably Mega Sableye is paired with chansey (even increasingly outside stall) which handles Koko pretty well. Tapu Lele is often specs or scarfed and of course if locked into psychic is useless against it and again handled by chansey. Mega Sableye can usually recover stall on fini too until misty terrain ends, as taunt is useless as it's bounced back, the defensive set doing 42.1%-50% to Mega Sableye. Magearna is a problem but handled by chansey pretty well. The pokemon where it has the worst match up, i.e. can't do anything+doesn't have a safe switch in with chansey/steel type for are Mega Lopunny, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Mawile. And only Mawile is seems up there in viability atm.

It think it is as splashable mon as pokemon in tier A as in my opinion like it was last gen, not hard to fit him on a team, pairs well often with a steel type to cover the only fairy weakness. With Hazards (and thus toxapex, spikes greninja, ferrothorn), status,Dugtrio, leech seed (particularly on ferrothorn and Celesteela) running rampant, provides arguably the best check. Also what I've found is having a mega sableye on the team reduces the need for a defogger, allowing greater freedom in teambuilding, with good defoggers scarce in OU (Tapu fini being the best IMO which has lost viability of late, and Latios always a risky one with pursuit trap and giving a free switch in to magearna which has risen in usage).

There are many reasons to run it over it's competition in rank A. Tangrowth assault vest, it's best set, takes special attacks only marginally better than specially defensive Mega Sableye but has more weaknesses, no access to recovery (though ofc regenerator offsets that a bit) or status when using assault vest. Toxapex weaknesses to commonly run stab in electric and ground, is trapped by dugtrio, though is a superior hazard setter. Ferrothorn really good at taking hits with incredible typing, but lacks reliable recovery (leech seed isn't too reliable). Sableye can function as a suitable alternative (or it can pair with well with all those pokemon, particularly toxapex and ferrothorn), I don't think it compares badly with pokemon that do a similar in the A tier.
Saying Mega Sableye is splashable on anything outside of stall is blatantly false. I cannot honestly think of a time outside of stall (something I rarely use) that I have even considered running it, and I've not seen a single Mega Sableye outside of stall in higher tier play so I'm clearly not alone on that. Mega Sableye's very passive and forfeits huge amounts of momentum as a result (something you forgot to mention), meaning it's impractical to fit on offense, and on balance/more defensive (but not quite stall) teams, there are usually better defensive megas they can run (stuff like Mega Sciz, Mega Venu, Mega Slowbro or wallbreakers such as MHera or MMaw), with practically no reason to run Mega Sab over any of these, except for really niche cases. Not sure why you're comparing Mega Sab to any of the A mon pivots considering they actually have resistances (poison lol). The only playstyle where it's splashable is stall, because there are far better megas on every other playstyle. Furthermore, most of the things it answers can be beaten by better, more splashable Pokemon (Mew for example).

The only reason Sab's ranked so highly is because of it's impact on stall and Mega Sab providing so much support to it by helping keep hazards off the field, helping (read: not 100% guaranteed) prevent teams from just doubling against stall to get hazard chip and deflect Taunts if need be, and it's current rank reflects it adequately. Also why would you run max Sp.Def? What does it do except make you more prone to KokoMMedi and let Defensive Lando weaken you so much more? What do you mean "good defoggers [are] scarce in OU" when Mew and Zapdos exist? It's also hardly a suitable alternative to hazard control because most teams are already prepared to get hazards up vs Mega Sableye (stuff like SD SR Lando, SR Clef, SD SR Chomp, Heatran etc or) due to wanting to not lose to or at least want to be able to pressure stall.

I'm wrong in saying that it's handled by chansey, however the stallbreaker set isn't too common in my opinion really, though I agree it exists.Pairing with a steel type instead makes it harder for Lele.

Heatran doesn't get rocks up on the specially defensive set, sure it resists toxic and will-o-wisp but can't be taunted, and can recover on heatran. Yes it can eventually be forced out by risk of a lava plume burn or running out of protects. As for trapping Sableye with magma storm, it only does 41.7% max with timid air max sp.A heatran. Landorus fears the burn by will-o-wisp so staying in isn't too desirable. It's not a momentum sink when the opponent has to fear toxic, will-o-wisp on switch in. And physical attackers find it difficult to set up due to existence of foul play too. It doesn't do anything to clefable, which hasn't changed since ORAS. The best set IMO (and I'm sure I'll get bashed for this) is Will-o-wisp, Toxic, Foul Play, Recover, partly because it threatens more pokemon, and is less momentum draining.

Statistically it is one of the best special or physical walls, with the appropriate movesets, resistances, and just one weakness. I think it's a bit strange to say it's impractical outside stall, when it has been utilised effectively in the past and still can be. There's just few reasons for that. It's not as good as ORAS where eventually banned to ubers but it's still A level worthy. An extra defogger is appreciated, but Sableye finds use in teams which don't want to include a defogger, itself isn't weak to rocks. It is definitely more difficult to stack hazards on the field with a Mega Sableye at the opposite end. It's not a suitable replacement for a defogger say if you're using something like volcarona on your team, you need a more reliable, but in a non SR-weak team it finds it can be sufficient.

Only compared Tangrowth as it was one of the pokemon in Tier A. Quite frankly Sableye doesn't have many pokemon that can do quite like what it can do,which while a personal preference to some degree, I tend to rate Pokemon a little higher than can bring something unique.

I've probably gone a bit overboard in listing its advantages. Its' main reasons for rising is the rise of dugtrio, hazard stacking, continued ability on stall, and finally it actually works pretty well against stall too.
Even if it only has weakness, it's got almost no relevant resistances (offensive poison types LOL), the only relevant one being Fighting (EDIT: And Psychic, but lots of psychics have ways of hitting it anyways), and MMedi in ETerrain easily 2hkos with TPunch, especially with that god awful max sp.def spread. Mega Lop, the only relevant offensive Normal type I can think of off the top of my head, spanks it with Scrappy Return or HJK anyways. Combine it with the fact it has no passive recovery and it's relatively easy to wear down. Tangrowth is far more physically bulky to boot and has a better defensive typing due to actually having relevant resistances (water, electric) and has passive recovery in Regenerator. It's a far superior pivot to Mega Sableye. Heatran gets rocks up vs it by either burning with Plume or chipping it with Magma Storm secondary damage and forcing Sab to Recover nonstop, eventually PP draining it or allowing a wallbreaker to get in on the recover/protect and immensely pressure it, enabling Heatran to beat it later.

It's nowhere near "one of the best walls" lol, the fact you said that is a straight up insult to Toxapex and Tangrowth among others. They are bulkier (far more so in Pex's case), and have much better defensive typings that mean they actually check things without relying on raw bulk. Normal only has one weakness but you don't see any defensive normals outside of Chansey. Oh yeah and 50/125/115 defenses isn't even that amazing anymore due to Power Creep(TM)

Nothing has changed for Mega Sab to go up a rank, and in fact it's not even guaranteed on stall anymore, pointing more to MSab having gotten worse, not better. Duggy+MSab is far from new, it existed during ORAS post STag ban. Duggy's the only mon I'd call being on all teams and even then there are people trying to "innovate" with Dugtrioless stall, most teams usually notably suffering from the opportunity cost of not running Duggy. Keep Mega Sableye A-


Dugtrio to A+: Disagree:
Has anything actually changed to make this mon better? The only notable development that I've seen that would help Duggy at all is the rise of Mega Zard Y+Dugtrio teams, which doesn't actually help Duggy itself, it's just supporting a good Pokemon who's doing most of the actual work. Magearna's always been common since AV's inception earlier in SUMO (it was at 13% even before the MMeta ban, which is pretty common all things considered), now it's just more so. If anything, Zard Y should rise up, and that rose pretty recently so not a lot of chance of that happening. Duggy still does what it's always done and the meta's not really changed in it's favour (at least not substantially enough to be A+). Keep A.
 
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Hi there. I decided to come here to check how well rated some pokemon are, and I'm very surprised to see Mega Lopunny at a dismal B rank. I would say it deserves at least a B+ rank for the moment considering the following facts:

  • It is an excellent anti-lead which beats all viable sash users, and often makes the opponent to lead with a passive pokemon like Tangrowth or Mew just because Mega Lopunny is there on the team preview.
  • It is a great win-con, as most teams semi-stall, balance, and bulky offense teams only carry 1 or 2 answers to mega Lopunny. Additionally, mega Lopunny pretty much destroys hyper offense in the team preview and isn't dead weight in stall match-ups as it can still punch holes in the team once toxapex is weakened (She 3hko's 252/252+ unaware clefable, forcing her to use moonlight pp, and HJK+PuP(The turn they use counter)+HJK kills skarm)
  • Unlike mega Medicham, it's godly speed tier and sizable bulk allows it to ease prediction in many times. For example, Choice specs Ash Greninja's Water shuriken only does 75% at most, so it's entirely safe to go for return instead of switching into ferro. Furthermore, this speed stat turns mega lopunny into an insane revenge killer.
  • It's resistance to stealth rock means that it's much harder to wear down over the course of a battle than other pokemon, like LO protean greninja, Tapu koko, and Kyub.
  • Between it's power-up punch and standard ice punch sets, there aren't very many counters to mega Lopunny, and once they get worn down, Mega Lopunny gets a guarenteed kill each time they come in. For example, mega Venusaur and mega Scizor, although excellent checks to the standard ice punch set, get's 2hko'd by hjk and return respectively after a +1 PuP, while defensive lando-t and zygarde will get 2hko'd by ice punch after rocks.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-604753783

Here's a replay of how much work Mega Lopunny can do against the opposing team. Although my opponent forfeited early, Mega Lopunny was entirely capable of finishing off the rest of the team, as her bulk allows her to withstand even ash-greninja's water shuriken and Tapu fini's moonblast, and her offensive capabilities allow her to 2hko standard tapu fini with return

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 174-207 (64.2 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 99-120 (36.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 238-282 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The only argument I see against mega Lopunny rising is the fact that it
  • requires a mega slot and
  • it needs stealth rock (and sometimes appreciates spikes) support to function at its best
The mega slot, at least in my opinion, should be the only thing holding her back from a spot in the A ranks for the time being. Additionally, all wall-breakers need stealth-rock support, and many of them appreciate spike support too.

Because of this, I am nominating Mega Lopunny from B --> B+
 
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Leo

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Hi there. I decided to come here to check how well rated some pokemon are, and I'm very surprised to see Mega Lopunny at a dismal B rank. I would say it deserves at least a B+ rank for the moment considering the following facts:

  • It is an excellent anti-lead which beats all viable sash users, and often makes the opponent to lead with a passive pokemon like Tangrowth or Mew just because Mega Lopunny is there on the team preview.
  • It is an excellent win-con, as most teams semi-stall, balance, and bulky offense teams only carry 1 or 2 answers to mega Lopunny. Additionally, mega Lopunny pretty much destroys hyper offense in the team preview and isn't dead weight in stall match-ups as it can still punch holes in the team once toxapex is weakened (She 3hko's 252/252+ unaware clefable, forcing her to use moonlight pp, and HJK+PuP(The turn they use counter)+HJK kills skarm)
  • Unlike mega Medicham, it's excellent speed tier and sizable bulk allows it to ease prediction in many times. For example, Choice specs Ash Greninja's Water shuriken only does 75% at most, so it's entirely safe to go for return instead of switching into ferro. Furthermore, this speed stat turns mega lopunny into an insane revenge killer.
  • It's resistance to stealth rock means that it's much harder to wear down over the course of a battle than other pokemon, like LO protean greninja, Tapu koko, and Kyub.
  • Between it's power-up punch and standard ice punch sets, there aren't very many counters to mega Lopunny, and once they get worn down, Mega Lopunny gets a guarenteed kill each time they come in. For example, mega Venusaur and mega Scizor, although excellent checks to the standard ice punch set, get's 2hko'd by hjk and return respectively after a +1 PuP, while defensive lando-t and zygarde will get 2hko'd by ice punch after rocks.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-604753783

Here's a replay of how much work Mega Lopunny can do against the opposing team. Although my opponent forfeited early, Mega Lopunny was entirely capable of finishing off the rest of the team, as her bulk allows her to withstand even ash-greninja's water shuriken and Tapu fini's moonblast, and her offensive capabilities allow her to 2hko standard tapu fini with return

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 174-207 (64.2 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 99-120 (36.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 238-282 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The only argument I see against mega Lopunny rising is the fact that it
  • requires a mega slot and
  • it needs stealth rock (and sometimes appreciates spikes) support to function at its best
The mega slot, at least in my opinion, should be the only thing holding her back from a spot in the A ranks for the time being. Additionally, all wall-breakers need stealth-rock support, and many of them appreciate spike support too.

Because of this, I am nominating Mega Lopunny from B --> B+
Yeah I think you're exaggerating Lopunny's draws and ignoring its flaws. First of all, let's get this straight: Lopunny has a great matchup vs Hyper Offense. This is an undeniable fact that was considered when it was ranked, which actually happened a couple of days ago so it's hard to believe something about this changed to make it better. Outside of that matchup, however, Lopunny finds some problems. The rise of Mew and Clef on BO makes it harder for it to do much in those matchups and forces it to rely on PuP+Encore to threaten common defensive backbones, which isn't reliable and can lead into a burnt/dead Lop after a single misprediction. Even less durable answers like Landorus-T can keep it at bay long enough to where it ends up not doing its job. You mention Lop being an excellent wincon vs fat teams, which is far from true because some of its best and most reliable answers in unaware Clef, Toxapex and phys Def Skarmory are seen in those teams and aren't as easy to wear down and beat as you assume. Btw, Unaware Clefable never runs Moonlight so you can't really PP Stall that. While it's indeed harder to wear down with Stealth Rock damage as you mentioned, it isn't that big of a deal because it won't do anything as long as its defensive answers are healthy enough. That's why you can't compare it to breakers like Kyurem-B or Protean Gren, which are harder to check defensively.
 
Yes, it does have checks. So does every other mon in ou. What I'm saying is that once the 1 or 2 checks to mega lop gets weakened on a team (standard Mew only needs to take something like a u-turn or volt switch to get in 2hko range). Mega lop, like every other wall breaker, requires some support to break through these said checks. For example, sg magearna would want ferro, tran, and celesteela weakened before she can start up her sweep so one can use magnezone or mega medicham. On my team, I use band t-tar to break through clef, toxapex, and skarm on stall so mega lop will have an easier time. Additionally, I have u-turn support on my lando-t which can get mega lop in healthier in case she needs to tank a hit later on. Furthermore, z-fly will knock out tangrowth, does about 70-85% to mew, and 85%-98% to clef. This means that if mew or clefable switches into an earthquake, it'll get knocked out the turn it tries to regain health.

Kyu-b and Protean greninja both have their flaws against certain matchups themselves. Kyu-b takes a whopping 25% each time it switches in to stealth rock, and has almost no defensive capabilities. Sure it might take out clefable with a z freeze shock, but so can other things like lando-t and dugtrio. Protean greninja still gets walled by chansey and toxapex on stall, so i dont see how greninja is much better against stall itself

You're essentially comparing how well mega lop, 1 mon, does against an entire team, 6 mons, and forgetting that mega lop also has 5 mons which help her break through the walls she struggles with. Also, mega lopunny's match-up versus stall, although not as good compared to other mons like band t-tar and tapu lele, are much better than some of the pokes ranked A and A+, such as mew, keldeo, and ferro. If i have sd bisharp and their only check to it is skarm, then im gonna set up a few swords dances and weaken/kill it cause he doesnt have a better choice.

Also i did forget that clefable uses wishtect on stall. I dont know why i thought it used moonlight. Too used to oras lol

EDIT:Grammar errors
 
So, this will likely get shot down, but I'm just going to open up discussion on these two Pokemon. Not saying I know where they should be ranked, all I'm saying is that they are viable options.

Infernape and Mega Tyranitar are some hella solid Pokemon that people often forget about. I get that there's a lot of Pokemon that give you more free kills like Zygarde and Z move Landorus-T, but these Pokemon are still really solid and should be given a shot. Infernape is still a great wallbreaker who does well in offense and actually is solid anti-meta, and Mega Tyranitar is amazing utility thanks to its insane bulk. I could explain in a 20 page essay in detail why these Pokemon are so much fun, but I think it's better off to just have me post replays.


EDIT: Mega Tar is A- I'm dumb lmao, I see so many few people use it though.
 
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Muscle K

Banned deucer.
I've been considering responding to many of these posts for a long period of time, and I believe that now is the time to do so.
I will apologise in advance if I sound like I am attacking / antagonising other users, as all I am attempting to do is give constructive criticism.
That being said, i'll move onto the noms:


I'll be frank: the only nom that I agree with is Smeargle - which I must agree with, due to the metagame shifting away from favouring Hyper Offensive Teams (still doens't stop me) and having a preference towards bulkier teams, which certain variations of Hyper Offense - including Webs - have difficulties facing.

However, i'd like to discuss these two nominations - Mega Mawile and Mega Pinsir.



Mega Mawile does not require a drop to A-, yet alone such a drastic drop down to B+.
Mawile is in the A rank due to it's amazing wallbreaking and sweeping capabilities, that many other pokemon cannot achieve.
Mega Mawile has many positive qualities that allow it to be as dominant as it is, and in this nomination, you mention none of them.

Mega Mawile has several factors that keep it in the A rank. The most notable feature of MMaw is it's amazing ability in Huge Power - which allows MMaw to hit incredibly hard. That, combined with an incredibly wide array of physical moves to use, ranging from the uncommon Fire Fang to the destructive Play Rough, it has the tools to break through the tier's strongest defensive walls, including Tangrowth, Celesteela, Clefable, Ferrothorn and Toxapex to name a few.
As well as that, it is one of (albeit uncommon) few pokemon that is able to set rocks up against stall, whilst also dismembering stall (as well as many bulky offense and semi-stall teams).
As well as that, it has an incredible defensive typing, which alongside its Pre-mega ability, Intimidate, grants Mawile incredible Bulk for a sweeper / wallbreaker, allowing it to check the tier's most common pokemon, such as non-eq Mega Pinsir, Tapu Lele, Celesteela, Post-Mega Sableye, Clefable, the list goes on
The point is, that Mega Mawile is an incredible pokemon, that outclasses many sweepers and wallbreaker via virtue of Bulk, Typing, Movepool and an astounding attack stat.

TL:DR Mawile shouldn't drop, especially since the rise of Kyub and MVenu doesn't remotely affect it

While I understand that its flaws such as being susceptible to Dugtrio and suffering from 4MSS, there is simply too many good qualities that allow Mega Mawile to stay in the A rank.

I won't go into as much detail with Pinsir, but here's a quick summary.



Pinsir, while not as versatile as Mawile movepool wise, is incredibly effective and can function in many different playstyles, not just Sticky Web. The current meta has very little switch-in's to Pinsir, especially since there are very few pokemon that resist Flying + either Ground or Fighting coverage and can tear through bulkier and more offensive teams with ease.

TS:DR: Pinsir should stay in A.

- Regarding your nom Reviloja753 -

- Applies for both Pinsir and Mawile -

I believe that you had your mind in the right place - you mentioned how the meta was shifting away from the favour of Mawile and more towards Charizard, which is all the nom really required, but I'd also like to mention that Charizard is only a check - it doesn't wall it (walling means it's essentially a counter - it takes very little damage from every attack that Mawile commonly runs, which is not true, especially since Sucker Punch does upwards of 60%(on average).
I won't go into much detail regarding the comparison between Kyurem and Mmaw and how MVenu walls MMaw, but for future reference, Kyurem and Mawile serve very different rolls - the only similarity is that they are both excellent wallbreakers (MMaw also acts as a bulky Sweeper)

B- to C/C-: Agree.

Again, I won't go into much detail because nearly everybody has talked about Lele outclassing Gardevoir, but essentially, Gardevoir is one of the few mons that can 6-0 stall with ease, but after some usage did find it rather underwhelming when coming across offensive teams.
Much like many other pokemon in the tier, it suffers from 4MSS, especially this meta, where it requires Thuderbolt, Focus Blast, Hyper Voice, Taunt and Psyshock to remove all of its checks, and requires some more restrictive teambuilding.
However, I do believe C+ is where it should belong.


A- to A : Completely disagree
The pure lack of research / the abundance of theorymonning in this nomination just astounds me.

I'll be completely honest: Mega Sableye would not be ranked if it was not for Magic Bounce, which is its only niche in this metagame - it's bulk is terrible compared to other stall stapes including Tangrowth, Skarmory, Chansey, Mega Audino, Toxapex, Clefable, and even Quagsire, which if I must remind everybody, has 95 / 85 / 65 defenses.

As an avid stall player (yes, I'm the type of guy to use stall in the OU room's frequent tournament's, as well as the ladder.) I often believe that Sableye is more of a burden to keep alive than to keep it healthy, which leads me to my first point - it is no way flexible in any shape or form. Unlike the various mons in the A rank, it can not be placed on various types of teams and only require the support of 1 or 2 mons - it requires nearly an entire team to preserve it. Unlike many other defensive pokemon, Sableye not only requires a hazard removalist - yes I know it has Magic Bouce, but the most common Stealth Rock Setters, which are the likes of Landorus-T, Clefable, Azelf, Smeargle Heatran and Lead Excadrill all able to beat Sableye via the means of a powerful moves that are able to severely weaken it - beyond the point of recover, having access to Skill Swap and being able to bypass Magic Bounce, as well as requiring a cleric to prevent hazards being stacked for the team and having a method to trap threats to stall, it simply requires too much to be "spalshable"

Regarding your post I believe you must not only consider that this nomination must researched / playtested against opponents of a higher skill calibre.

To conclude, I'd like to agree with Riddikulusness's multiple nom's. While I wish I could add to your nominations, there's nothing left to cover.
 
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Nomming Infernape for C-

LO Mixed
Infernape has an amazing movepool and coverage, as well as not bad 104/104 offensive stats. Gunk shot can 2hko phydef unaware clefable and tapu fini as long as it hits. Hidden power ice can 2hko lando, chomp and zygarde easily, outspeeding the 3 making it a decent check to the trio. It can use priority physically as well as specially, and has an ability to back up that priority on the physical sides. Tpunch can help it check rain by ohkoing pelipper, as well as ohkoing mantine. Even stone edge/ earthquake can be run for zapdos and marowak-a. It's plethora of coverage moves along side a not bad fire and fighting coverage can make it a bit difficult to check. It's obviously not good at the jobs it can do, but it does so many jobs that i feel it's worthy of a ranking.

The scarf set also has some utility. It does more to charti volcarona, although its usage has gone down, i feel this is a big perk to use scarf infernape> scarf volcarona. It doesnt straight up ohko, but any chip should allow it to ohko. It also has the ability to switch into and rkill serperior, which keldeo cant do. Infernape as a better time switching into charizard y than keldeo becuz it isnt 2hko'd by zard y apart from focus blast, which isnt very common. I feel like this also justifies that infernape should have a ranking as C- as it has a few decent niches
 

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Nomming Infernape for C-

LO Mixed
Infernape has an amazing movepool and coverage, as well as not bad 104/104 offensive stats. Gunk shot can 2hko phydef unaware clefable and tapu fini as long as it hits. Hidden power ice can 2hko lando, chomp and zygarde easily, outspeeding the 3 making it a decent check to the trio. It can use priority physically as well as specially, and has an ability to back up that priority on the physical sides. Tpunch can help it check rain by ohkoing pelipper, as well as ohkoing mantine. Even stone edge/ earthquake can be run for zapdos and marowak-a. It's plethora of coverage moves along side a not bad fire and fighting coverage can make it a bit difficult to check. It's obviously not good at the jobs it can do, but it does so many jobs that i feel it's worthy of a ranking.

The scarf set also has some utility. It does more to charti volcarona, although its usage has gone down, i feel this is a big perk to use scarf infernape> scarf volcarona. It doesnt straight up ohko, but any chip should allow it to ohko. It also has the ability to switch into and rkill serperior, which keldeo cant do. Infernape as a better time switching into charizard y than keldeo becuz it isnt 2hko'd by zard y apart from focus blast, which isnt very common. I feel like this also justifies that infernape should have a ranking as C- as it has a few decent niches
Nominating an unranked Pokemon requires replays. I grabbed some for you courtesy of QuickBH:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602638575
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603809193
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603986570
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603526364
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603968652
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603453971
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603018313
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602712218
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603638532
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602925000
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-604386929
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603013824
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603210347
 
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I'm going to be a shameless plug and say check out my RMT in my signature if you want to see more replays, also gets a good reason on why Infernape puts in work on a lot of my teams.

Infernape is a useful fire type as it's the only viable fire type who has a solid means of punishing Greninja, and overall has a lot of means to handle its "answers." Toxapex after hazards doesn't take an EQ, and M-Sableye can't stomach 2 Fire Blasts well, making Infernape a viable stall breaker. Infernape can also run U-Turn to send out a trapper like Tyranitar or Dugtrio easily which really adds to his utility, or Stone Edge for Char Y etc. etc. and overall this makes Infernape very hard to switch in on in balanced teams because Fire Fighting is amazing coverage and does well vs bulkier teams. It's not even 4 MSS because you have other Pokemon that can be paired to just flat out remove weaknesses. (i.e. Stone Edge on Nape with Latios covers most options)

Infernape fitting in the rare category of a viable fire type really helps too. Honestly if I were to rank him I would put him at C. I understand that this metagame is complete aids and having a Pokemon that actually requires prediction isn't exactly safe anymore and there are other offensive Pokemon that require 0 thought. If you're going to use Infernape run bulky offense and play aggressively.
 
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Infernape is a useful fire type as it's the only viable fire type who has a solid means of punishing Greninja.

Infernape fitting in the rare category of a viable fire type really helps too.
CharY has solar beam and halves the damage from Gren's water type moves. It punishes it just fine.

And fire types are not rarely viably lol there's 2 in A+ and 1 in A and two of them are the stars of the current meta.
 
You need to fulfill like 3 prerequisites before Char Y can pressure Greninja I'm not calling that solid at all.

2-3 is actually nothing lol especially for such an amazing offensive type that is typically made cores out of. Unless you specifically build around your fire (which is limited to Char Y and Volcarona as the rest aren't too good) you're going to stick with Heatran and maybe sometimes Alolan Marowak when sometimes you just want other fires that don't require so much commitment.

Not saying Nape is anywhere on the level of Heatran just saying the more options the merrier.
 
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You need to fulfill like 3 prerequisites before Char Y can pressure Greninja I'm not calling that solid at all.

2-3 is actually nothing lol especially for such an amazing offensive type that is typically made cores out of. Unless you specifically build around your fire (which is limited to Char Y and Volcarona as the rest aren't too good) you're going to stick with Heatran and maybe sometimes Alolan Marowak when sometimes you just want other fires that don't require so much commitment.

Not saying Nape is anywhere on the level of Heatran just saying the more options the merrier.
3 requisites? CharY beats basically every Gren in a 1v1. Meanwhile, Infernape is outsped and KOed by Hydro.

2-3 is something when one is the best mega and wallbreaker in the tier, one is the best sweeper in the tier, and one is one of the most annoying Pokémon to face for anyone in the tier.

Infernape is pretty much a trashmon and has no place in OU when better mixed wallbreakers exist (how you even "break" with 104 offense is ok) and better fire and fighting types exist.
 
3 requisites? CharY beats basically every Gren in a 1v1. Meanwhile, Infernape is outsped and KOed by Hydro.

2-3 is something when one is the best mega and wallbreaker in the tier, one is the best sweeper in the tier, and one is one of the most annoying Pokémon to face for anyone in the tier.

Infernape is pretty much a trashmon and has no place in OU when better mixed wallbreakers exist (how you even "break" with 104 offense is ok) and better fire and fighting types exist.
I wouldn't be so quick to say Infernape is a "trashmon", can't be that bad if QuickBH got over 2000 elo with 'Nape on his team just saying. Also how exactly does Zard-Y take on any Gren 1v1?

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Specs gren absolutely floors it before transforming, maybe you should check calcs before providing such sweeping statements?
 

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I wouldn't be so quick to say Infernape is a "trashmon", can't be that bad if QuickBH got over 2000 elo with 'Nape on his team just saying. Also how exactly does Zard-Y take on any Gren 1v1?

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Specs gren absolutely floors it before transforming, maybe you should check calcs before providing such sweeping statements?
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 204-240 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 270-318 (90.9 - 107%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
maybe you should check calcs before providing such sweeping statements
 
Okay but you can't have rocks up at all, can't let it get below 70, and have to figure out the Gren's set. Not only that but Zard Y dies immediately after which is majority of the time a losing trade. Like actually who tries to 1v1 Gren with Char Y period lmao.

If you've watched the replays you would know that Mach pressures Gren heavily and allows you get momentum against it because when you force Gren out whatever is coming in isn't going to like Infernape. Water Shuriken is a real thing but have a water resist and its easy to see how abusable you can take advantage of that and push momentum back to your favor.

I'm totally cool with admitting that Char Y is absurdly amazing (if he wasn't he wouldn't be used period because just like 99% of fire types he's very commitment heavy) and deserves his ranking but don't act like anybody tries to touch Gren with Zard and don't use it as a basis of an argument. Especially when you're arguing against a statement that was clearly designed to be a mere bonus and not a main argument.
 
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252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 204-240 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 270-318 (90.9 - 107%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
maybe you should check calcs before providing such sweeping statements
lol alright I gotta admit that was a crazy error on my part, guess I clicked Charizard when looking for Mega-Y. Still though, as impressive as that 1v1 potential is it's certainly not an ideal situation. I'm also seeing more protean Gren's running rock slide which I'm assuming is a one shot. Furthermore since we're discussing Infernape's viability and not so much Zardy's I'd like to point out that Infernape does have a niche over Zard in that it has a greater speed tier, neutrality to stealth rock, and the ability to hit stuff like Chansey and Toxapex. Honestly it's probably a decent teammate for Zard Y. I wouldn't mind seeing infernape in like B- or B, it's above Pokémon such as cofagrigus for sure.
 
to see lopunny in the same rank as the likes of hoopa-u, jirachi, manectric and nihilego just does not sit right with me.

as it stands, i feel as though mega lopunny's efficacy is being underrepresented slightly. it's still a deadly tool vs frailer teams no matter the set, even though teams of those archetypes are waning in leu of more bulky teams featuring toxapex, mew, and clefable. its lacking matchup vs. said bulkier teams is being overstated. a set that myself (and a bunch of other players) have been using is hjk / return / substitute / encore, and i consider this to be the most optimal set in the current metagame. when played aggressively, the aforementioned set is a great tool in grabbing huge swathes of momentum against those teams, and in dismantling them. it is possible that the set perfectly fits my playstyle and my interpretation and how highly i regard it is being overblown, but in the hands of a good player who is willing to take risks and capitalise on the plethora of given opportunities to encore against a mew, toxapex, clefable, reuniclus, etc., as they are forced to heal allows lopunny to fire off risk-free attacks on different members of the team, or beat said pokemon 1v1.
 
lol alright I gotta admit that was a crazy error on my part, guess I clicked Charizard when looking for Mega-Y. Still though, as impressive as that 1v1 potential is it's certainly not an ideal situation. I'm also seeing more protean Gren's running rock slide which I'm assuming is a one shot. Furthermore since we're discussing Infernape's viability and not so much Zardy's I'd like to point out that Infernape does have a niche over Zard in that it has a greater speed tier, neutrality to stealth rock, and the ability to hit stuff like Chansey and Toxapex. Honestly it's probably a decent teammate for Zard Y. I wouldn't mind seeing infernape in like B- or B, it's above Pokémon such as cofagrigus for sure.
have to disagree with a ranking higher than a C. It's completely outclassed by protean gren if ur running a lo mixed attacked, apart from hitting chansey harder. the scarf set has some decent niches that can make u use it > keldeo. I guess mach punch is good but i dont see anyone running mach punch unless its a cb set, or a sd set, which i feel are both not viable
 
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