Yes it is true that switching this thing in is one of its problems to success. Although I still do feel that playing around it and outplaying your opponent is always an option when your opponent's team has a significant weakness to Mega Camerupt. I feel as it would be much better if it had a bit more speed under its belt, but if you work around it you'll still be able to have great results. Now duggy......... if you see duggy....consider your Camerupt fucked.
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
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Garchomp A to A- disagree
Maybe everyone noming it down is ignoring it's best set, SD + z-move?
SD garchomp is not walled by celesteela or ferro, as both fall to +2 fire fang. It doesn't compete for a slot at all with dugtrio (for obvious reasons). Landot is another fat ground with SD, but landot is the S-rank goat of the game and nothing compares. Zygarde is weaker and takes longer to boost up to the same degree. While they are very similar in a lot ways, you'll never see zygarde as a lead or early game breaker, as chomp is commonly seen.
As for the tapus, no only 2 of them win 1v1 in most situations: lele and bulu. koko can't ohko (without a high roll on a lorb boosted dazzling gleam, not a common move) and is ohko in return, fini can't ohko and is 2hko in return (and you outspeed).
Garchomp still offers the great role compression it is known for: SRocker, breaker, tank, and potential sweeper all in one (i have the offensive SR set in mind specifically). It has other nice niches. Scarf's speed tier is perfectly fine (the fact that it's outsped by keldeo and terrak is largely irrelevant to actual gameplay, since your job is to RK sweepers and such, not 1v1 other scarfers (who you beat 1v1 anyway??)). It can also reliably RK ash greninja since it can eat Water Shurikens and EQ is an ohko, and can switch directly into volcarona (most of the time).
I'll grant you that competition for a team slot is a a little more intense, and there are multiple other ground types in the meta that are also fantastic picks, but none of them outclass garchomp in any way, and if you're not running landot, and you want a ground type with both offensive power and staying power, chomp is as reliable as ever.
I'm not opposed to the idea of chomp moving down in the future, but the arguments presented here have been weak and unconvincing.
Maybe everyone noming it down is ignoring it's best set, SD + z-move?
SD garchomp is not walled by celesteela or ferro, as both fall to +2 fire fang. It doesn't compete for a slot at all with dugtrio (for obvious reasons). Landot is another fat ground with SD, but landot is the S-rank goat of the game and nothing compares. Zygarde is weaker and takes longer to boost up to the same degree. While they are very similar in a lot ways, you'll never see zygarde as a lead or early game breaker, as chomp is commonly seen.
As for the tapus, no only 2 of them win 1v1 in most situations: lele and bulu. koko can't ohko (without a high roll on a lorb boosted dazzling gleam, not a common move) and is ohko in return, fini can't ohko and is 2hko in return (and you outspeed).
Garchomp still offers the great role compression it is known for: SRocker, breaker, tank, and potential sweeper all in one (i have the offensive SR set in mind specifically). It has other nice niches. Scarf's speed tier is perfectly fine (the fact that it's outsped by keldeo and terrak is largely irrelevant to actual gameplay, since your job is to RK sweepers and such, not 1v1 other scarfers (who you beat 1v1 anyway??)). It can also reliably RK ash greninja since it can eat Water Shurikens and EQ is an ohko, and can switch directly into volcarona (most of the time).
I'll grant you that competition for a team slot is a a little more intense, and there are multiple other ground types in the meta that are also fantastic picks, but none of them outclass garchomp in any way, and if you're not running landot, and you want a ground type with both offensive power and staying power, chomp is as reliable as ever.
I'm not opposed to the idea of chomp moving down in the future, but the arguments presented here have been weak and unconvincing.
It's slow as hell which sucks but using Camerupt is always about doubling and you find yourself in so many positions where Camerupt blows holes into the enemy team without taking any damage if you double well. Plus, it has usable bulk if you make a couple bad turns, not to mention it checks a few very relevant threats which is nice.
Its surprisingly high usage in WCOP demonstrates how much of a weirdly decent mega pick this thing is. I don't think it's B- material but I don't think C+ is a stretch for the camel right now. Maybe I'm bias because many of my teams have serious issues with this thing.
I also disagree with the garchomp, mainly because the arguments are poor and are discussing bad sets (if i remember correctly, chomp was dropped for its scarf set a long time ago, and then moved back up for its z-move sets). The only thing that does SD + Rocks better than Chomp is Lando-t, and Chomp still has nice advantages over lando, particularly its speed tier and typing. Its scarf rocks set isn't thaaat bad, and at the very least it provides a great deal of role compression. I prefer Zygarde but Zygarde is super weak before it sets up, so its breaking potential in the early game is quite horrendous if it's not CB. Garchomp can often be much more threatening at that stage of the game.
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Man I get a bonus today - Joycap AND Toshiro46 posted!
- Mega Sableye
- Clefable
- Technically Toxapex too (Extrasensory from either Greninja or Dark Pulse flinch).
And these are Pokemon commonly placed on stall builds as well. I fail to see how Skarmory losing to these, and some of them it actually beats with Counter is a death sentence to Skarmory. You have to realize that these Pokemon have multiple ways of beating some of their checks and counters in stall. Well, with the exception of Chansey which you wanted in B about a month or two ago.
Multiple teams run Defog and entry hazards regardless if it is stall, balance, and even Hyper Offense to some extent. Defog is a crucial element to stall because:
- It prevents other walls from being put into specific KO ranges or being worn down faster
- Or, the real issue, keeps Dugtrio's Focus Sash intact
I don't get how Defogging "breaks" Sturdy when a Skarmory can easily Defog from full health and still have Sturdy afterwards (force the opponent to switch out?). That's why you have either Mega Sableye or another Defogger on the team - to prevent the above scenarios from happening to stall frequently. If Stealth Rock remains on the field it puts Clefable at high risk of being 2HKOed by Thundurus-I's Thunderbolt for example while Stealth Rock and Spikes can chip Toxapex into 2HKO or OHKO ranges much easier.
Personally, I don't think Spikes is a must for the stall team, but it is highly recommended. Spikes is probably the most replaceable move next to Counter here, as I've seen variants use Whirlwind / Counter as well as Taunt / Counter or using Brave Bird / Whirlwind too. Spikes are really hard to turn down, though, for what it's worth.
And that was before Smack Down (and Gravity) really caught on for Landorus-Therian. Consider that other moves are also missing from here: Toxic and Protect. There's also that Magnezone is #3 for Landorus-Therian's partners - not even raking 5%:
Landorus-Therian also has to be quite offensive to pull off the successful role of this, and it can't reliably KO things properly until things have been chipped a bit (either by Stealth Rock or just stall mons taking passive damage). For example: Impish Landorus-Therian does jack shit to Chansey (0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 196-232 (27.8 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO) and isn't that great against Mega Sableye (0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 111-132 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). I also want to point out that in scenarios such as Magnezone + Landorus-Therian vs stall, stall may opt to switch to Mega Sableye before Skarmory to predict the Knock Off. Even then, stall is not guaranteed to lose Skarmory right away to Magnezone. There are potential scenarios where the stall player could predict Magnezone switching into Skarmory and going straight for Dugtrio - banking that it has Focus Sash to at least risk the play.
While it's true what reyscarface states is correct, there is a lot more to the story here. Using Knock Off Landorus-Therian definitely helps, but chances are you're probably using it more for Mega Pinsir - not for Landorus-Therian itself. This is because the offensive sets usually incorporate Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, or both into their sets. Defensive sets also have a lot of moves to choose from as well.
I also don't understand your argument, furthermore, about Skarmory being the weakest link to stall. Let's review a few posts:
Old VR Post, but note the teams
If you look at the composition between these teams, they all have one thing in common (theoretically there should be 2, but some people have this stupid opinion that Chansey is a replaceable stall teammate ???) - all of them carry Skarmory. Another stall team that was run within WCoP also incorporated another stall team where Landorus-Therian wouldn't do much - that being Tangrowth / Quagsire. Though arguably also defunct like many of the stall teams listed here, the biggest outlier is this - Skarmory is used on almost all of them.
Obviously, there are exceptions - Eo Ut Mortus is an oddball and doesn't like using the standard norm for stall, like, ever but we still love him. Overall though - what is considered the strongest of stall still uses Skarmory 100% of the time - making it difficult to be a replaced Pokemon. If you replace it with Zapdos you have a rougher time because then you rely heavily on Mega Sableye to block back Stealth Rock and you have Zapdos taking a lot of damage when you do switch into Stealth Rock.
SM OU Sample Teams
And would you look at that - both of those teams have Skarmory in them. Man for being the "weakest link" it sure shows when Toxapex was replaced for Alomomola in one of them.
Basically from what I can guess - it mentions how players like rey have had a very high success rate with stall in SPL, though stall has coincidentally had a rather up and down ratio in WCoP - that is, if you paid any attention to it.
I'll give you this link so you can be caught "up-to-date".
But I get it - you really want to lose to this Pokemon too. Throttling Tapu Bulu isn't enough for Skarmory I guess. Pack up boys and girls.
Just look at some of the fucking replays from later weeks if you don't believe me.
Joycap, I say this in the nicest way possible, but I think it would be worthwhile to either play the game or do extensive research before making such absurd claims in the future. Yes, I understand that Marrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr made the nomination prior to, and yes I realize that I am personally looking at your response before his; however, the failure to realize that Skarmory is more of a team player that is supposed to check physically inclined threats (which it still can fairly well, but it is a bit pressured by some I admit) and rattling off Pokemon that it should never face (Magearna?) obviously shows the failure to comprehend Skarmory's role in defensive teams. Furthermore, it still has roles in Hyper Offensive teams as a suicide lead that can lay down Spikes and Stealth Rock while scaring off Mega Sableye with Supersonic Skystrike and Skarmory with Taunt. This, however, does not excuse you from your constant poor posting that has shown and continued to show within the OU VR as well as within the forums.
Oh, and if it isn't obvious by my tl;dr - Skarmory to remain in A-. Skarmory is a pivotal team player in stall and, while it draws in Fire-types, stall teammates and balance does have some responses to these threats. In fairness, Clefable (and even Mega Sableye) also draw in Heatran and are ranked about the same or even higher.
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Now for the dessert:
I think Mega Camerupt being a fairly good balance breaker in the current metagame with access to tools that a lot of balance teams love (Magearna, Koko, and Zapdos resistance) really help its case to rise. I agree that it's a pretty underrated Pokemon and, used properly, is difficult for a lot of balance teams to answer outside of being faster than it (and faster threats hate switching into it). I think C+ is more fitting for it personally since it's still a niche mon, but it's much better than Pokemon like Gliscor that have very little-to-no relevant niches left in the SM OU Metagame that a lot of teams desire.
Cool. You know who also loses to these Pokemon?
- Mega Sableye
- Clefable
- Technically Toxapex too (Extrasensory from either Greninja or Dark Pulse flinch).
And these are Pokemon commonly placed on stall builds as well. I fail to see how Skarmory losing to these, and some of them it actually beats with Counter is a death sentence to Skarmory. You have to realize that these Pokemon have multiple ways of beating some of their checks and counters in stall. Well, with the exception of Chansey which you wanted in B about a month or two ago.
Why do you need to be "informed" on something that would be bloody obvious from A) Observation and B) from playing the damned game?
Multiple teams run Defog and entry hazards regardless if it is stall, balance, and even Hyper Offense to some extent. Defog is a crucial element to stall because:
- It prevents other walls from being put into specific KO ranges or being worn down faster
- Or, the real issue, keeps Dugtrio's Focus Sash intact
I don't get how Defogging "breaks" Sturdy when a Skarmory can easily Defog from full health and still have Sturdy afterwards (force the opponent to switch out?). That's why you have either Mega Sableye or another Defogger on the team - to prevent the above scenarios from happening to stall frequently. If Stealth Rock remains on the field it puts Clefable at high risk of being 2HKOed by Thundurus-I's Thunderbolt for example while Stealth Rock and Spikes can chip Toxapex into 2HKO or OHKO ranges much easier.
Personally, I don't think Spikes is a must for the stall team, but it is highly recommended. Spikes is probably the most replaceable move next to Counter here, as I've seen variants use Whirlwind / Counter as well as Taunt / Counter or using Brave Bird / Whirlwind too. Spikes are really hard to turn down, though, for what it's worth.
It's really funny you say that, because Toxapex has also run into the conundrum that it needs to use Shed Shell in order to stay safe against Dugtrio, but it also means that Toxapex is easier to wear down. For example, the "standard" Toxapex takes about ~40% damage from Solar Beam from Zard Y. That's really bad when Chansey could potentially be down for the count by Dugtrio, which is the most likely scenario since Chansey is a guaranteed trap with it being forced to hold Eviolite. Skarmory being "constrained" by Shed Shell is almost a non-factor - it makes trapping Skarmory that much harder to do, which makes it more difficult for a Pokemon that Skarmory reliably checks and no other stall team members can - which is Mega Pinsir.
I'm not saying that reyscarface is incorrect for this statement, but Landorus-T also has a slew of issues such as the amount of moves it wants to run before Knock Off. Let's look from usage stats all the way up to 1825 from last month alone just for "ladders" sake:
| Moves | | Earthquake 99.566% | | Stealth Rock 75.915% | | U-turn 58.305% | | Hidden Power Ice 45.022% | | Stone Edge 29.044% | | Swords Dance 24.810% | | Fly 15.835% | | Explosion 13.730% | | Knock Off 11.636% | | Smack Down 8.528% | | Other 17.610%
And that was before Smack Down (and Gravity) really caught on for Landorus-Therian. Consider that other moves are also missing from here: Toxic and Protect. There's also that Magnezone is #3 for Landorus-Therian's partners - not even raking 5%:
| Teammates | | Magearna +7.460% | | Medicham-Mega +5.682% | | Magnezone +4.776% |
Landorus-Therian also has to be quite offensive to pull off the successful role of this, and it can't reliably KO things properly until things have been chipped a bit (either by Stealth Rock or just stall mons taking passive damage). For example: Impish Landorus-Therian does jack shit to Chansey (0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 196-232 (27.8 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO) and isn't that great against Mega Sableye (0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 111-132 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). I also want to point out that in scenarios such as Magnezone + Landorus-Therian vs stall, stall may opt to switch to Mega Sableye before Skarmory to predict the Knock Off. Even then, stall is not guaranteed to lose Skarmory right away to Magnezone. There are potential scenarios where the stall player could predict Magnezone switching into Skarmory and going straight for Dugtrio - banking that it has Focus Sash to at least risk the play.
While it's true what reyscarface states is correct, there is a lot more to the story here. Using Knock Off Landorus-Therian definitely helps, but chances are you're probably using it more for Mega Pinsir - not for Landorus-Therian itself. This is because the offensive sets usually incorporate Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, or both into their sets. Defensive sets also have a lot of moves to choose from as well.
I also don't understand your argument, furthermore, about Skarmory being the weakest link to stall. Let's review a few posts:
Old VR Post, but note the teams
If you look at the composition between these teams, they all have one thing in common (theoretically there should be 2, but some people have this stupid opinion that Chansey is a replaceable stall teammate ???) - all of them carry Skarmory. Another stall team that was run within WCoP also incorporated another stall team where Landorus-Therian wouldn't do much - that being Tangrowth / Quagsire. Though arguably also defunct like many of the stall teams listed here, the biggest outlier is this - Skarmory is used on almost all of them.
Obviously, there are exceptions - Eo Ut Mortus is an oddball and doesn't like using the standard norm for stall, like, ever but we still love him. Overall though - what is considered the strongest of stall still uses Skarmory 100% of the time - making it difficult to be a replaced Pokemon. If you replace it with Zapdos you have a rougher time because then you rely heavily on Mega Sableye to block back Stealth Rock and you have Zapdos taking a lot of damage when you do switch into Stealth Rock.
SM OU Sample Teams
And would you look at that - both of those teams have Skarmory in them. Man for being the "weakest link" it sure shows when Toxapex was replaced for Alomomola in one of them.
I'm not bothering with this video honestly - too long and a few people have told me a summary of it.
Basically from what I can guess - it mentions how players like rey have had a very high success rate with stall in SPL, though stall has coincidentally had a rather up and down ratio in WCoP - that is, if you paid any attention to it.
I'll give you this link so you can be caught "up-to-date".
Man it's like this Pokemon doesn't exist anymore:
But I get it - you really want to lose to this Pokemon too. Throttling Tapu Bulu isn't enough for Skarmory I guess. Pack up boys and girls.
Skarmory is an interesting case where, while it draws in these threats, stall does have some appropriate answers to these too. Mega Sableye can attempt to stall out quite a bit of Heatran provided that Mega Sableye doesn't power it up. Zard Y still has to answer to Toxapex and Chansey in the standard spl stall, though it only answers to Chansey against Ciele's which makes Ciele's kind of iffy sometimes. Finally, there's Alolan Marowak which, I agree that it can do some damage, but it also can be worn down by Toxic and Stealth Rock while being forced out 100% of the time by Dugtrio if Alolan Marowak KOes something. Even Alolan Marowak is not enough sometimes to break stall alone, but that's because stall is more like a game of chess than it is a standard game.
You literally could not be further from the truth. I can't even believe you would make such an absurd statement. If you even watched or played ANY recent SM OU you would know that balance has become a lot better in the current setup.
Just look at some of the fucking replays from later weeks if you don't believe me.
:cwl:
Joycap, I say this in the nicest way possible, but I think it would be worthwhile to either play the game or do extensive research before making such absurd claims in the future. Yes, I understand that Marrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr made the nomination prior to, and yes I realize that I am personally looking at your response before his; however, the failure to realize that Skarmory is more of a team player that is supposed to check physically inclined threats (which it still can fairly well, but it is a bit pressured by some I admit) and rattling off Pokemon that it should never face (Magearna?) obviously shows the failure to comprehend Skarmory's role in defensive teams. Furthermore, it still has roles in Hyper Offensive teams as a suicide lead that can lay down Spikes and Stealth Rock while scaring off Mega Sableye with Supersonic Skystrike and Skarmory with Taunt. This, however, does not excuse you from your constant poor posting that has shown and continued to show within the OU VR as well as within the forums.
Oh, and if it isn't obvious by my tl;dr - Skarmory to remain in A-. Skarmory is a pivotal team player in stall and, while it draws in Fire-types, stall teammates and balance does have some responses to these threats. In fairness, Clefable (and even Mega Sableye) also draw in Heatran and are ranked about the same or even higher.
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Now for the dessert:
Robopoke and a few others have explain this better, but the goal of Mega Camerupt is to be a balance disruption. Celesteela, Toxapex, Clefable, and Tangrowth do not enjoy seeing this Pokemon and the potential doubling into Mega Camerupt makes it deadly. Very few Pokemon can reliably switch into Sheer Force Fire Blast and Earth Power. To compare - Latios still takes a significant chunk (40%) from Fire Blast and Mega Charizard Y has to always be careful of Rock Slide (nevermind that Fire Blast in sun does a good 55%+).
I think Mega Camerupt being a fairly good balance breaker in the current metagame with access to tools that a lot of balance teams love (Magearna, Koko, and Zapdos resistance) really help its case to rise. I agree that it's a pretty underrated Pokemon and, used properly, is difficult for a lot of balance teams to answer outside of being faster than it (and faster threats hate switching into it). I think C+ is more fitting for it personally since it's still a niche mon, but it's much better than Pokemon like Gliscor that have very little-to-no relevant niches left in the SM OU Metagame that a lot of teams desire.
I completely agree. Camerupt is indeed all about doubling, and playing around and burning holes when the opponent doesn't expect it. That is why I didn't really mention the speed problem that much in my original post. My opinion on the Garchomp situation, I also think it should stay the way it is Lando T does it better at SD + Rocks and Dragonium or Groundium is the set to go for Chomp nowadays. It's very effective and some people haven't quite realized the real things that it can do in the metagame.
So do you actually have an issue with anything I said or do you just want to be hostile? I didn't say Mega-Camerupt shouldn't rise, and on the contrary I think C+ is a fine place for it atm. The original nom just didn't mention the actual reason for it to rise - if you can double switch in safely against a mon that doesn't threaten it, the list of things that reliably switch in is basically just Chansey and Mantine, and even Mantine takes significant damage from Rock Slide. I understand its uses, my issue with the original nom is that it didn't mention double switching at all and instead brought up its bulk, which, while decent, is not good enough to just straight up tank attacks to get its own off.
Of course I have an issue with what you said because your post also was just about as bad as his:
The thing is, yes, all the poster did was post damage calculations, but you also did just as wrong by stating something that's bloody obvious (well Camerupt is so slow it has to take a hit) when that isn't always the case. Even so, the other failure was Trick Room - which is something Mega Camerupt is outclassed in by other Trick Room sweepers such as Mega Mawile and Magearna. Mega Camerupt should always be used as a balance breaker, and at least his calculations show that while also showing what hits it can take if necessary. For example, the strongest move AV Magearna has for Mega Camerupt is Fleur Cannon or Ice Beam. That's it. Sure Mega Camel is taking a hit, but it's still going to do a literal fuckton to something that switches in.
Mega Gallade to from B+ to B
There were no Metagame trends or shifts that justify a Mega Gallade drop (maybe Magearna? idk if that counts), but I still think it is placed inadequality. It fits much better on B rank where Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric are, as they are very comparable, they all have utility versus a restricted playstyles, Loppuny and Manectric fare well against offense only, but fail to address bulkier teams properly while Gallade does better against Balance and other bulky playstyles thanks to SD and Knock Off but gets heavily pressured by offense can't finding scenarios to set up and being trapped by Duggy and walled by Mega Sableye, meaning it only works effectively against balance, and therefore, Its clear that Gallade is too matchup dependant, just like Lopunny and Manectric. B+ rank has Pokémon that in my eyes are much more viable than Mega Gallade. Kyurem-B is one of the best Wallbreakers in the tier and can always guarantee that it will heavily weaken the opponents team thanks to the sheer power it has behind its moves, Kingdra and Mega Alakazam are effective late game cleaners in their respective playstyles, rain and hyper offense thanks to their high Speed and abive average raw power, so my point is: Gallade is too narrow niched for fitting in B+. It simply does not provide the team support and viability that the other B+ Pokémon provide and the fact that it fails to acomplish much against both Stall and Hyper Offense shouldn't put it in B+ in my point of view.
Mega Camerupt from C to +C
I'd also like to add that I fully support the Camel rising. Yeah, it is slow, but it absolutely dismantles the extremely common Thapex + Celesteela + Clefable core and has so much ease setting up Stealth Rock because of the switches it forces, it is also a decent rocker against stall despite being Dugtrapped, as it forces Mega Sableye and can tank one EQ from Duggy at full health and set up Stealth Rock on Duggy's face. I think it fits a lot better on C+ with other niche-ish Wallbreakers such as Volcanion and Mega Garchomp. Camel also appreciates Magearna and Charizard-Y rising as it is a solid check to both. Other than that, not much to add, Colonel covered pretty much everything except the Pex Cele Clef core thing.
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B+ -> A-
Vincune is actually insane right now. I've used this mon extensively over the past two weeks and I have been thoroughly impressed. It's such a reliable win condition and can rip apart so many common defensive cores. It turns the ever annoying Celesteela, Clefable, and Heatran into set up fodder. The common Clefable/Celesteela/Toxapex balance core loses to Vincune because of its ability to PP stall Toxapex. Not much has changed in the meta for Suicune, but I feel like B+ is definitely too low for it. Vincune + TSpikes is such a devastating combination to fat teams that Suicune eviscerates. Its pure Water typing and good natural bulk also allow it to serve as an emergency check to mons like Greninja and it can eat a hit from mons like Lando-T and Zygarde (even though Suicune itself outspeeds and potentially kills/burns non Jolly variants of those two). It's been getting a lot of attention from the success it's had in WCOP and on Aurora Veil teams (which make it even harder to kill). It also has the added benefit of 6-0'ing the uncommon but dangerous Trick Room pretty much singlehandedly lmao.
The biggest threats stopping Suicune from sweeping are Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu, which can be easily dealt with by its teammates (Bulu also has to risk Burns and gives Suicune more recovery with Grassy Terrain), but once those are gone and Suicune is given the chance to Sub up, there is very little you can do to stop it. It also has the added benefit of not being that prepped for right now cause it's not in OU, and teams have to prep for everything else in the meta, and it just so happens Suicune preys on all of those cores.
Suicune's PP stalling ability can also not be understated. Stalling out some Leaf Storms on Serperior, Power Whips on Ferrothorn, etc allow Suicune to cripple those mons and turn them into set up fodder.
Suicune is a fairly splashable mon as well, I'd argue a lot more splashable than mons in A- like Mega Heracross, Mega Sableye, and Skarmory. It fits perfectly on Aurora Veil teams and also Balance/some Bulky Offense teams.
As said earlier,
TL;DR: Suicune is broken
These aren't formal noms, maybe I'll make posts later, but I'd also like to see thoughts on
-Mega Medicham from A- to A (Super dangerous mon rn, Mew is everywhere but even then Medi does a huge amount and Zen 2HKOs Clef, Reuniclus and Cofagrigus are uncommon, and other than that like nothing wants to switch in on it and it does huge amounts of damage to everything it touches)
-Dragalge ranked at C- (Toxic Spikes setter than doesn't lose to Electric/Grass types + has the ability to fire off powerful STAB moves with Adaptability, synergizes really well with Vincune to avoid stacking weaknesses if you want tspikes. I don't have many replays of this rn, if I decide to make a formal nom I'll grab some)
But you didn't mention your issues with his post and also it wasn't. The bias is quite clear.
I pointed out that his calcs aren't as impressive as he was implying, which may be obvious to someone as intelligent and meta-learned as yourself, but clearly wasn't to him.
I said it shouldn't be put on Trick Room because Ash Greninja manhandles it. Even if Ash-Gren didn't, Mawile would still be the go-to mega, but I didn't feel it was necessary to include that. He didn't bring up speed at all in his original post, so I figured maybe Trick Room was what he used it on, since that would give the defensive calcs significantly more weight. But TR Camerupt is a bad idea, which is why I mentioned it.
I said it did very well against Magearna. Thanks for agreeing with me.
It's really nice to see the quality of Smogon's moderation team. I'm sorry that I was ignorant and rude in the past, but you're no better if you're ignorant and rude back at me when I've done nothing wrong with my post. I'm trying to do better, you're stooping down to my level and trying to drag me back down with you. Please don't.
Alolan-Ninetails B- -> B
AV HO is rising as Webs HO falls, and I feel A-Ninetails and Smeargle's rankings in relation to each other should reflect that. Especially because, unlike Smeargle, A-Ninetails does much more for its team besides setting AV (such as being a fire Rain check or Encoring mons to ease set up) and is the only mon that can do what it does, whereas there are alternatives to Smeargle. If not a rise for Ninetails, then a drop for Smeargle to C+ for essentially the same reasons. Ninetails is far more useful to its play style than Smeargle is to its, and Webs has dropped, while AV has risen. Their respective enabling mons shouldn't be in the same tier right now.
Agree with the VinCune rise but I'd just like to note that Medi doing "a huge amount" to Mew generally means little because Recover / Will-o-Wisp will force you out regardless. More importantly it is very easy to pressure offensively due to its mediocre bulk and lack of resistances. Virtually everything faster will murder you from 75%+.
You say Zen Headbutt can 2HKO Clefable (even then, only if you are Adamant) but...
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 224-266 (85.8 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
So you basically need to predict the Clefable coming in. And this scenario is assuming that the opponent isn't just packing Mew.
It just is not as threatening in practice as it is on paper, and it faces competition from the other wallbreaking Mega Evolutions in the tier such as ZardY and Pinsir. I think it is clearly worse than both.
There was no need for you to mention TR at all since his calcs all used 168+ SpA, with enough Speed EVs to outrun Toxapex (coincidentally the only Pokemon among his defensive calcs that might have threatened him).
You said it did well against Magearna. Fantastic. Colonel M is saying that the original poster did it better than you because he actually included calculations instead of providing empty statements. Thank you for proving his point.
There is no need to attack Smogon's moderation. Reflect on your own actions first. You really are not "sorry for your past" in the slightest.
You say Zen Headbutt can 2HKO Clefable (even then, only if you are Adamant) but...
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 224-266 (85.8 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
So you basically need to predict the Clefable coming in. And this scenario is assuming that the opponent isn't just packing Mew.
It just is not as threatening in practice as it is on paper, and it faces competition from the other wallbreaking Mega Evolutions in the tier such as ZardY and Pinsir. I think it is clearly worse than both.
You pointed out that his calcs weren't impressive because Mega Camerupt would have to take a hit first and thus be revenged, when in reality you're just using it to break defensive cores for a teammate. Double switching or using VoltTurn are fine options to get Mega Camerupt in, and typical defensive Pokemon such as Tangrowth, Magearna, Celesteela, Clefable, and Mew invite it in for free. The post you replied to never insinuated that Mega Camerupt could sweep a team. His calcs were, for the most part, relevant to his argument. On the other hand your initial response provided nothing of substance, and your follow up was arguably worse.
There was no need for you to mention TR at all since his calcs all used 168+ SpA, with enough Speed EVs to outrun Toxapex (coincidentally the only Pokemon among his defensive calcs that might have threatened him).
You said it did well against Magearna. Fantastic. Colonel M is saying that the original poster did it better than you because he actually included calculations instead of providing empty statements. Thank you for proving his point.
There is no need to attack Smogon's moderation. Reflect on your own actions first. You really are not "sorry for your past" in the slightest.
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A Camerupt debate. Really.
Camerupt should stay in C.
Camerupt just really hates the massive quantities of Lando-T, which roughly HALF of the current players in OU use. Lando-T is the definition of OverUsed. And in any set he's in, even physdef, he still OHKO's (or has a high chance too) Mega Camerupt with earthquake.
But that point is probably redundant. Let's look at the rest of the top tier mons.
Magearna: Magearna can't do much, but switch out I guess
Ash-Ninja: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Greninja: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Drug trio: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Celesteela: Camerupt owns the mofo
Heatran: Can 2HKO Camerupt with Earth Power, but only really feasible if the Heatran user predicts a Camerupt switchin. Otherwise Camerupt does destroy Heatran
Garchomp: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Keldeo: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Zygarde: RIP Mega Camerupt
Ok, but let's say Mega Camerupt has teammates to back it up against these threats, i.e Tangrowth, Camerupt's best teammate. Is it good then? No. Purely because there are others who can do Camerupt's job better. I'm, of course, looking at Mega Zard Y. Zard Y may not be as bulky as Camerupt, nor may it have the same power, but the speed of Zard Y lets it actually catch up to what it wants to KO. And, of course, Zard Y clearly doesn't lack on power. I'm glad nobody thinks Mega Camerupt is serious on TR, because Ash Ninja just uses water shuriken and boom. Alternatively, Azumarill or Crawdaunt use water jet and boom. It's slowness, in fact, gets the best of it.
Then, of course, bulky water types. While rare, Tapu Fini and Suicune can make Camerupt's day hard. Mantine, Gyarados, and Pelipper just wall out Camerupt. Sure, it does have options to hit them, but because they are faster, a water type attack will hit Camerupt first.
In short, Camerupt's niche in OU is the ability to KO those pesky top tier steel types. But it gets wrecked by too many other top tier threats, others do its job better, and bulky water types. I say Camerupt stays in C.
Camerupt should stay in C.
Camerupt just really hates the massive quantities of Lando-T, which roughly HALF of the current players in OU use. Lando-T is the definition of OverUsed. And in any set he's in, even physdef, he still OHKO's (or has a high chance too) Mega Camerupt with earthquake.
But that point is probably redundant. Let's look at the rest of the top tier mons.
Magearna: Magearna can't do much, but switch out I guess
Ash-Ninja: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Greninja: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Drug trio: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Celesteela: Camerupt owns the mofo
Heatran: Can 2HKO Camerupt with Earth Power, but only really feasible if the Heatran user predicts a Camerupt switchin. Otherwise Camerupt does destroy Heatran
Garchomp: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Keldeo: Mega Camerupt gets wrecked
Zygarde: RIP Mega Camerupt
Ok, but let's say Mega Camerupt has teammates to back it up against these threats, i.e Tangrowth, Camerupt's best teammate. Is it good then? No. Purely because there are others who can do Camerupt's job better. I'm, of course, looking at Mega Zard Y. Zard Y may not be as bulky as Camerupt, nor may it have the same power, but the speed of Zard Y lets it actually catch up to what it wants to KO. And, of course, Zard Y clearly doesn't lack on power. I'm glad nobody thinks Mega Camerupt is serious on TR, because Ash Ninja just uses water shuriken and boom. Alternatively, Azumarill or Crawdaunt use water jet and boom. It's slowness, in fact, gets the best of it.
Then, of course, bulky water types. While rare, Tapu Fini and Suicune can make Camerupt's day hard. Mantine, Gyarados, and Pelipper just wall out Camerupt. Sure, it does have options to hit them, but because they are faster, a water type attack will hit Camerupt first.
In short, Camerupt's niche in OU is the ability to KO those pesky top tier steel types. But it gets wrecked by too many other top tier threats, others do its job better, and bulky water types. I say Camerupt stays in C.
Again, a blanket response that looks purely at 1v1 matchups that Mega Camerupt shouldn't be in AND ignores the positives of Mega Camerupt: manhandling most balance cores with its exceptional power and decent coverage. Virtually none of the Pokemon you mentioned can switch in directly and you even went as far as bringing up two largely irrelevant Aqua Jet users to try and discredit this mon. Please read the previous posts about Mega Camerupt instead of assuming you are more correct than everyone else, since trust me...such is not the case.
You say mantine, gyarados and pelipper wall camerupt, well recently ive been having a lot of fun with nature power camerupt in electric terrain and it works on the predicted switch you ohko all of these mons in electric terrain.
I think you are completely missing the point; as others have said, of course Camerupt can't switch in to any of those threats nor take a hit from them and retaliate, but it's niche is being a balance breaker than can punch holes in teams when brought in safely, such as on a double switch. By saying that all these mons can OHKO it, you are just stating the obvious and completely missing the point that when brought in safely, it can easily dismantle balance cores such as Clefable/Toxapex/Celesteela, a core that's been growing in popularity, a heavily damage pretty much anything that tries to switch in. That being said, I fully support M-Camerupt going to C+.
Also,
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 192-228 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah no.
Of course it doesn't OHKO them and it can't stay in, but once again, the whole point of using Camerupt is to damage its switch ins. Mantine does wall it pretty well, but it's not like it is that common of a Pokémon, though it has been rising in popularity.
Yeah, Camerupt looses to Lando-T. But so does Magearna, does this make Magearna not S Rank as well?! Comparing Camel with all those Pokémon is completely irrelevant because any player with the tiniest brain inside his head would switch Camerupt out (unless they're willing to sacrifice it to gain a free switch but that's not the case) Camerupt's role is not to stay in on these Pokémon, but rather put massive dents on common defensive cores. It is an wallbreaker not a wall!
"Oh, but what about Dugtrio? Camerupt can't switch out"
Neither can Magearna, Lele, Heatran and other top tier Pokémon, having a bad matchup versus some Pokémon does not decide how viable or unviable a Pokémon is.
Bulky Water-types you say?! You gotta remeber that Suicune and Fini still take a lot of damage from Earth Power:
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 172-204 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Suicune: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And neither have reliable recovery (CroCune is pretty rare), meaning both will get worned down throughout the match and will no longer be able to switch into Camerupt
Also, neither Gyarados nor Pelipper also can't switch into Ancient Power or Rock Slide:
0- Atk Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 180-212 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 192-228 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Finally, Camerupt's role is not only to dent Steel-types like you said, Charizard-Y and Heatran can already do that better, but Camel's role is rather to tear apart the very common core of Toxapex, Celesteela, Clefable, and Tangrowth. Which other Pokemon also has this niche?! Of the top of my mind, I can only think of two: Icium Z Kyurem and Z Wild Charge Tapu Koko with Brave Bird. And Mega Camerupt still has some niches over those two because it compresses two other roles, in being a great Stealth Rock setter and providing its teammates a decent Charizard-Y / Volcarona / Magearna check, something very few Pokémon can do properly.
I see what you're trying to say but I strongly disagree because most of the things that beats Camerupt that you mentioned are actually not true if you read my calcs. Mega Camerupt can deal with more than steel types, and non banded thousand arrows doesn't OHKO Camerupt either. It is strikingly obvious of how slow it is, no need to repeat that and use it to your advantage which makes your post very redundant. Of course Ash Gren, Duggy, Lando, and Crawdaunt can deal with it, but when you really think about it, more than half the tier loses to Shift Gear Magearna, and nearly every Pokemon has a weakness. Mega Camerupt's niche is to deal with balance, and disrupt other teams as well. And because of this it obviously shouldn't stay C. I don't know what I put in my original post to make you confused, but now it should be clear that there are 5 other Pokemon slots to build with, and Mega Camerupt REGARDLESS OF ALL THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED, still has its niches that make it the mon that I described it to be.
In addition, it's not like people are asking Mega Camerupt to be bumped up to the B ranks, they're asking for a small subrank shift to C+. The mon doesn't have to beat everything in A/S rank to earn that.
And none of the mons listed want to actively switch into Mega Camerupt. Keldeo takes over 50% from Modest Fire Blast, which is hilarious. Zygarde and Chomp get blown away HP Ice/Nature Power with Misty Terrain (both of which are fine options, since the former+Sub is great for Camerupt in general).
And none of the mons listed want to actively switch into Mega Camerupt. Keldeo takes over 50% from Modest Fire Blast, which is hilarious. Zygarde and Chomp get blown away HP Ice/Nature Power with Misty Terrain (both of which are fine options, since the former+Sub is great for Camerupt in general).
yeah lmao C+ is completely reasonable for it, reading this thread lately you would think that Greninja is the only pokemon that deserves a higher rank.
A slight jump in 1 sub rank for a pokemon that has actually seen both tour and ladder usage, because of the many reasons many other users stated above isnt some blasphemous idea. Nor is it gonna destroy the VR.
Not every pokemon listed in the VR needs to be able to beat LandoGenMage in every scenario which is why they have lower ranks, and why those pokemon are seperated by a multitude of tiers. Also, mentioning Dugtrio beating something as a reason it shouldnt rise needs to stop. Its annoying seeing that point brought up over and over when thats a trait that 85% of OU pokemon suffer from.
A slight jump in 1 sub rank for a pokemon that has actually seen both tour and ladder usage, because of the many reasons many other users stated above isnt some blasphemous idea. Nor is it gonna destroy the VR.
Not every pokemon listed in the VR needs to be able to beat LandoGenMage in every scenario which is why they have lower ranks, and why those pokemon are seperated by a multitude of tiers. Also, mentioning Dugtrio beating something as a reason it shouldnt rise needs to stop. Its annoying seeing that point brought up over and over when thats a trait that 85% of OU pokemon suffer from.
I don't think you're using Camerupt right.
The idea is to come in on something which can't touch it - a volt switch from Koko/Magearna, Tangrowth, Celesteela, Toxapex if you can etc etc, or to use double switches and volt-turn to get Rupt in on stuff it can destroy.
Camerupt is pretty good, and the rise of CelePexClef is only helping it's viability. U-Turners who bait in one of these guys (M-Sciz, Torn-T, Lando) make good partners for it. I'd say it's pretty unexplored at the moment and Camerupt is one of few mons who can kill all three fat mons in that core, and takes on Magearna very well too. I'd rise it to C+/B- just for the omnipresence of Cele/Pex/Clef.
Yeah Camerupt has been a pretty fire option as of late because it destroys so many cores. I'm liking pairing it with Z Koko, as it can support it with u-turn and also blast past its more dedicated counters like Chansey with Gigavolt Havoc. The matchup vs things like Duggy and Zygarde suck though.
Marowak-Alolan might be worthy of a rise from B+ to A-.
Alowak is heat right now, it just bones such a large portion of the meta.
Some recent meta trends have gone in its favor, making it a highly anti-meta mon.
Lando-T, one of its biggest problems, has been running offensive Z-Move sets more and more commonly, making it much easier to wear down without leftovers or fear of rocky helmet. Offensive Landorus can only switch in once against Alowak, with or without entry hazards:
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 160-189 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mew is a very popular mon, and unless its running the uncommon knock off, the typical defog, wisp, recovery, ice beam/volt switch mew is a free switch in for Alowak to club something hard. Mew is also normally a difficult mon for a lot of teams to deal with (hence its A+ ranking). Alowak can even run Stealth Rock to continually switch in on the defog and set rocks back up right away, ensuring rocks are in play against teams running Mew for hazard control (a lot of teams).
Toxapex is now commonly running shed shell to evade capture from Dugtrio. This means it no longer has leftovers recovery to make it as reliable of an Alowak answer.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With rocks up and shed shell, Pex has more than a 50% of getting 2HKO'd by Alowak, turning the tables from what was once one of Alowak's more solid answers (252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) to a fairly unreliable one.
Speaking of Dugtrio, Alowak is the only relevant non-mega fire type right now that doesn't fear being trapped by Dugtrio, thanks to its ghost typing. This allows swords dance Alowak to dismantle a lot of stall builds, especially given the above calcs for Toxapex and ample setup opportunity against things like Chansey, Skarmory, and Clefable.
Clefable has been seeing a spike in usage, and Alowak as a fire type gives Clefable a fair deal of trouble. Even if it is max defense and max hp bold unaware to prevent you from boosting:
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can spam shadow bone until you net the 2HKO or get the defense drop as Clef softboils. Moonblast and flamethrower can barely touch Alowak, making him a safe switch in. If you're rock head flare blitz, the 2HKO is guaranteed easily.
Magearna is a top-tier threat atm, and Alowak is one of her best answers. A lot are running Shift Gear+ Boltbeam alongside Aura Sphere/Calm mind instead of fleur cannon or flash cannon which at least have the STAB boost to deal decent damage to Alowak. With an Alowak in your team, you don't have to worry much about the second best mon in the tier, which is a huge sigh of relief for a lot of teams.
Koko is back on the rise with Z-wild charge sets, and lightningrod Alowak remains one of Koko's best answers.
Zapdos is another very popular mon for its 3 attacks set, which Alowak completely blocks, as well as the defog set, which is in a similar situation to Mew where if you want to run stealth rock, you can pressure the opposing team by keeping rocks on the field easily if Zapdos is their defogger of choice.
Sub Heatran has been rising, and can be used as a check to Alowak. However, this is a double-edged sword, because if the Heatran user brings it in and subs expecting a switch for fear of earth power, he can quickly be obliterated by a bonemerang.
On top of these positive trends, Alowak still provides an answer to common mons like Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Skarm, Kartana, Rachi, and Magnezone. It can also be used as an emergency to check to stuff like Volcarona, Zard Y, and Serperior tanking a hit and retaliating hard.
Now it still struggles with some common mons like Lando-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, Greninja, and Tyranitar (although: 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 320-380 (93.5 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock), but none of the above bar Greninja can afford switching into a well-timed will o wisp. It also doesn't appreciate the rise of Suicune. Furthermore, it struggles from lack of recovery and hazards weakness, but pairs well with leech seed support (or Bulu) in a FWG core.
I have mentioned several different moves and abilities Alowak can run: lightningrod vs rock head, shadow bone, fire punch, flare blitz, swords dance, will o wisp, stealth rock, bonemerang. However, obviously it cannot run all these options at once, but it is very customizable to a team's needs. The only two essential moves are shadow bone and fire punch/flare blitz (depending on the ability). After that, it is up to you on how you want to run it, which is why Alowak is so splashable. It certainly does not suffer from 4MSS considering it can 2HKO at least 80% of the meta with just its STABS. In fact, what makes Alowak so deadly is the fact that over half the time you can just click shadow bone and expect to see complete obliteration ensue.
The other ghost type in B+ is Gengar, and in my opinion Alowak just brings more to the table in the current meta than Gengar. Alowak has far greater defensive utility and is benefitting from a lot of meta trends as described above, while Gengar is struggling in the current meta compared to a few months ago. I think Alowak is on par with a lot of A- mons. The closest comparisons seem to be Mega Medi and Mega Heracross, which are also both wallbreakers. Medi has a higher speed stat but offers minimal defensive utility and takes up a mega. Heracross also takes up a mega and, while it offers some defensive utility and is faster than Alowak, is much more prediction reliant and does not have a single move it can click and expect to see destruction follow. Given the current meta, Alowak just seems like a much stronger candidate for a team and a much bigger threat than mons like Kartana, Amoonguss, Gallade-Mega, or Bisharp.
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To add another note to Donphan's post regarding Marowak-A, in Trick Room, Swords Dance Marowak is a terrifying sweeper, able to OHKO Defensive Landorus at +1, after Swords Dance and the switchin Intimidate drop with Flare Blitz, OHKO Tapu Fini at +2 with Shadow Bone, OHKO Toxapex with Bonemerang/Earthquake at +2, and 2HKO Def Unaware Clefable. Nothing to scoff at. It also pairs well with Z item TR Magenera which can tank Knock Offs aimed at it.
The only things that can really force it out under TR are things that can hit it SE with priority like Ash Greninja, Azurmarril or Mega Mawile.
The only things that can really force it out under TR are things that can hit it SE with priority like Ash Greninja, Azurmarril or Mega Mawile.
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Mantine has been a rising Pokemon for some time in the current metagame for its ability to take on Volcarona, Scizor Mega, Celesteela, Rain, and Ash Greninja reliably, while also defogging. Lately, even more Pokemon that are checked by Mantine are rising such as Zard Y and Suicune. In addition, Mantine is a far more solid check to Spikes Greninja as Gunk Shot isn't all that common anymore. Mantine also is not forced out by the most common Offensive Landorus-T set (Gravity, Earthquake, ZFly, Stealth Rock) as no move ohkoes and even more so as they are starting to run Jolly without Smack Down, neither is it forced out by AV Magearna anymore as they run less SpA evs giving Mantine freedom to merely roost on a predicted Volt Switch. To add to all of this, common Mantine teammates like Scarf Tapu Lele and Weavile are on the rise as well, with Mantine's preffered playstyle in balance also rising.
Mantine is fairly splashable fitting in Balance and Semi Stall amazingly, while also sometimes fitting into Bulky Offense. It is one of the solidest check to Charizard Mega Y (with shed shell Toxapex), Rain, and Suicune, which are allreally nice to get out of a teambuilder's mind as they are not easy to check. Mantine is also one of the few non scarfer Volcarona answer which is amazing as every Scarfer that beats Volcarona has a massive flaw giving reason for you to like it if you didn't use them. The ability to Defog is also amazing, and even more so, being able to Defog on most sets of Spikers and Toxic Spikers like Greninja, Ash Greninja, and Toxapex is brilliant. Doing all these roles adds a great amount of utility and therefore, more reason to use Mantine.
While many Pokemon can run coverage moves for Mantine ( Charizard-Mega Y running HP Electric, Keldeo running HP Electric, Mega Swampert running Stone Edge, and Kingdra running HP Electric) many of these show the amount of lasting impact Mantine has on the tier, and something with a mere B rank doesn't show that. While Tapu Koko is on the rise, and giving something as unpredictable as Tapu Koko free switchins isn't great, most people won't switch in Electrium Z Tapu Koko directly into Mantine unless they aren't in a great position, in the fear of getting Scald burned narrowing one set down. Other electric types, like Zapdos and Magnezone are dropping a little bit as well. Even though Mantine isn't as solid of a switchin to Heatran anymore thanks to Sub Toxic on the rise, it can check plenty other threats better thanks to extra speed investment. It gives a free switchin to Pokemon like Offensive Magearna, and none of some of its best teammates in Weavile and Scarf Tapu Lele, in Mantine heart archetype of balance, it is not all that hard to check 3 attacks + Shift Gear Magearna, but CM sets can get very concerning at times.
Mantine should be on the same rank as stuff like Gyarados, Gengar, and Kartana instead of stuff like Hoopa-U, Jirachi and Venusaur-M to compare the ranks of B and B+ as it adds a lot more to the table than Venusaur-M and is crippled by a lot less things like sandstorm. While Venusaur can autowin more games than Mantine giving matchup victories. It is also far more splashable than all of those Pokemon and has even more of a uniqueness.
Replays: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-301426
Muscle K
Banned deucer.
Okay, here's my two cents about the current noms:
C to C+: Agree.
The most controversial C+ Nom in smogon history. While I won't go into much detail about Mega Cameruptbecause this just absolutely boring to read about since there are a tonne of great posts describing the positives and negatives, but i'm going to say that I am going to agree with this as - simply put - camel is a great anti-meta 'mon who's positive's outweigh the negatives.
(Forgive me If i'm not allowed to do this)
I'd also like to mention BeardyBennett's post in the Metagame Discussion thread in which s/he describes Mega Camel's abilities perfectly. Again, I won't go into detail because Bennett, as well as countless others have perfectly described Camel's capabilities in OU, but the argument for a rise is stronger, as well as more valid.
Definitely agreeing with this one.
A to A -: Strongly Disagree.
There is no way to express my feelings about this nomination without offending the author, so I apologise If I do so, but the justification for the drop is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure that anyone who has read the post will understand that the nomination is based around the Scarf Set, which imo is more of a necessity than a reliable set - and even then ScarfChomp is probably the worst set available to Garchomp.
While SD Groundium Z is arguably its best set allowing to OHKO checks such as Clefable, Fini, Slowbro, Ferrothorn and Mew after a single boost. However, It is also able to abuse Dragonium Z and Firium Z (to name some) to break its various other checks - which is one of the various reasons (feel free to correct me) why archomp is ranked at A.
And finally, no new metagame shifts have occurred to move Garchomp down a rank - in fact it's in it's favour - Lele, Tang, Volc and Protean Gren have gone down in usage, while Magearna, Mawile, Toxapex, Ttar and Tran have gone up in usage - meaning that Garchomp is as good as ever.
B+to A-: Agree.
Again, I won't ramble on about Alolawak, simply because Donphan Trumpcard did a good job on describing its great qualities, but i'd like to add the fact that Dugtrio can not successfully pursuit trap it. Not only is Marowak an incredible Stallbreaker thanks to Rock Head, but its natural bulk allows Marowak to be able to comfortably survive a pursuit from dugtrio, where it does 60% maximum.
252 Atk Dugtrio Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 136-160 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
This may not be a strong addition to the argument at first glance, but it means that it is able to switch back in on Rocks and easily weaken / Knock Out the 'mon in front of it, which for a stallbreaker is huge,(is basically common knowledge by now) as many other stallbreakers are susceptible to Dugtrio.
TL:DR: Just go read Donphan Trumpcard's post. It's literally 3 posts above mine.
B to B+: Strongly Agree
WCoP and SPL showed us how effective mantine is in this tier. While I understand that the latter had ended 2 months ago and that the meta hasobviously shifted during the period, it is still astounding how effective this mon is. Since the post (should be) directly above this, I'll keep it Short and Simple: Mantine is incredibly splashable, and can be placed on nearly every type of team (not named Hyper Offense) and consistently performs excellently, very rarely being rendered useless during matches - being able to blanket check most special attackers (not named Tapu Koko or Mega should be UU Mane) as well as being able to cripple physical attackers with Scald, Remove Stat boosts with Haze and its key feature this generation - being able to roost of the stealth rock or damage from thunder wave.
While my argument isn't strong (especially since it's a dick move to steal someone else's thunder) I definitely agree with this nom. I won't be surprised if this were to be nominated to move up to A-.
Thanks for reading, apologies if this was long, I have a strong dislikes of hides.not like I can't get them to work or anything
C to C+: Agree.
The most controversial C+ Nom in smogon history. While I won't go into much detail about Mega Camerupt
(Forgive me If i'm not allowed to do this)
I'd also like to mention BeardyBennett's post in the Metagame Discussion thread in which s/he describes Mega Camel's abilities perfectly. Again, I won't go into detail because Bennett, as well as countless others have perfectly described Camel's capabilities in OU, but the argument for a rise is stronger, as well as more valid.
Definitely agreeing with this one.
A to A -: Strongly Disagree.
There is no way to express my feelings about this nomination without offending the author, so I apologise If I do so, but the justification for the drop is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure that anyone who has read the post will understand that the nomination is based around the Scarf Set, which imo is more of a necessity than a reliable set - and even then ScarfChomp is probably the worst set available to Garchomp.
As everybody's favourite mod has previously mentioned, the Z move sets are arguably the best sets, where it can comfortably use them to break past it's usual check (which I won't mention, but feel free to refer to the post above)
While SD Groundium Z is arguably its best set allowing to OHKO checks such as Clefable, Fini, Slowbro, Ferrothorn and Mew after a single boost. However, It is also able to abuse Dragonium Z and Firium Z (to name some) to break its various other checks - which is one of the various reasons (feel free to correct me) why archomp is ranked at A.
And finally, no new metagame shifts have occurred to move Garchomp down a rank - in fact it's in it's favour - Lele, Tang, Volc and Protean Gren have gone down in usage, while Magearna, Mawile, Toxapex, Ttar and Tran have gone up in usage - meaning that Garchomp is as good as ever.
B+to A-: Agree.
Again, I won't ramble on about Alolawak, simply because Donphan Trumpcard did a good job on describing its great qualities, but i'd like to add the fact that Dugtrio can not successfully pursuit trap it. Not only is Marowak an incredible Stallbreaker thanks to Rock Head, but its natural bulk allows Marowak to be able to comfortably survive a pursuit from dugtrio, where it does 60% maximum.
252 Atk Dugtrio Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 136-160 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
This may not be a strong addition to the argument at first glance, but it means that it is able to switch back in on Rocks and easily weaken / Knock Out the 'mon in front of it, which for a stallbreaker is huge,
TL:DR: Just go read Donphan Trumpcard's post. It's literally 3 posts above mine.
B to B+: Strongly Agree
WCoP and SPL showed us how effective mantine is in this tier. While I understand that the latter had ended 2 months ago and that the meta has
While my argument isn't strong (especially since it's a dick move to steal someone else's thunder) I definitely agree with this nom. I won't be surprised if this were to be nominated to move up to A-.
Thanks for reading, apologies if this was long, I have a strong dislikes of hides.
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