Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Kyurem-Black shouldn't be B+ or B imo. Anything with 170 Attack and 120 Special Attack with the Speed and bulk that Kyurem-Black has is an immediate threat. This thing is capable of breaking down so many balance cores and puts so much pressure on defensive teams its unreal. The Choice Band and mixed sets are easily the best sets imo, and its very clear that this thing is a threat that should never be ignored. I'd say its on par with Hoopa-Unbound in terms of breaking and its much bulkier and its faster than Hoopa-Unbound as well. As exlipsebeast said, Ice/Dragon is a very bad type, but it's resistances are very useful, its coverage is amazing, and its Outrages. Oh my God, its Outrages are nukes. Once Fairies are gone, good luck trying to stomach a Banded Outrage with STAB off of 170 Attack. This mon is definitely worth a teamslot, and it should move up.
But the problem is there are fairies, and they're very common too. A lot of things soak up Outrages too, like Celesteela and Toxapex. It's not just the fairies either; You have fighting types like Pheromosa and steel types like Celesteela as well. Personally, I think Kyu-B is fine where it is. Doesn't have a huge place in the meta, but is still decent.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I don't think dragonite should drop unless Z-dog does too who is sitting above him, choice band 100 base power is really meh and I feel dragonite can abuse band extreme speed, outrage, earthquake+ something to hit flying steel(only thing that comes to mind that You're really missing out on hitting hard over thousand arrows)

Z-dog just seems bad to me outside of glare(unused) and thousand arrows
 
I think Volcanion should move from B- -> B. Without too much HP investment, it can readily check Protean Greninja, Battle Bond Greninja before it transforms by dint of Water Absorb (and even when it is Ashninja, they still have to predict right to hit you with Dark Pulse) as well as Mega Metagross even after taking Rocks damage. If you give it an AV and Flame Charge, as it threatens a lot of common mons (Heatran, defensive Lando, Metagross, Ferro, Scizor, Celesteela, Greninja) it can reasonably readily get to +1 Spe by forcing the switch and then becomes a capable cleaner of weakened teams as with +1 216+ Spe you outspeed most relevant threats apart from Koko, Weavile, Scarfmons, Ash-Greninja and Pheromosa. Additionally, with an AV, it starts to look more like a Greninja counter rather than a check with no rocks up, on the proviso that it isn't in the Ash-Greninja form yet. I normally wouldn't argue for an AV set, but I think the kind of power Ash-Greninja throws around definitely makes thinking about AV sets a good idea - particularly when you've got strong STABs like Steam Eruption and Fire Blast to work with that don't require heavy offensive investment to make worthwhile.

With the AV 160 HP / 128 SpA / 4 SpD- / 216 Spe+ spread I've been using as mentioned in the Underrated Sets thread (though the spread may look weird using both AV and a SpDef reducing nature, it really just averages Def and SpDef so they're more or less the same level keep bulk on both sides):

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
128 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 138-164 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Volcanion Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 81-96 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO (non-Water Protean typing)
128 SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 243-286 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (non-Water Protean typing)

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 160 HP / 4- SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Volcanion Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 40-48 (14 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Volcanion Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 258-304 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

With this level of trolly mixed bulk even after taking rocks damage, Steam Eruption being a dreadful move to switch into, access to a decent speed tier at +1 Spe and that boost being reasonably accessible with the switches it forces, in addition to it checking or softly-countering 3/4 S ranked threats (well, defensive Lando if not offensive variants) I think it is an under-ranked threat and on-par with other B mons like Z-Dog. Additionally, I think more offensive sets could easily have legs too (Solar Beam paired with Grassium-Z and Flame Charge for example, or Flame Charge with LO/E-Belt and non-Greninja related coverage to hit Fairies harder) as well as bulkier sets which ditch Flame Charge for more well-rounded coverage.

Specs is worth an honourable mention, but I think the set is too easy to play around to be worth it due to Volcanion's low speed tier. Scarf can do the same things as Flame Charge without the set-up turn, but naturally you're locked into a move making Volcanion much more of a cleaner which I think makes poor use of it's great coverage.

What would hold it back from being ranked higher is mainly it's issues with Pheromosa (who it can still check from full health without rocks at 160 HP) and Koko who are running around, and a SR weakness is never good regardless of the bulk it has. It also just barely checks things like Mega Meta after rocks as you can see above, so it's not the kind of thing that you can stick onto a team willy-nilly. Still, I think more people should be using it - I think the main reason it's a B- is people aren't trying it out. Try it out!
 
Last edited:
I think Volcanion should move from B- -> B. Without too much HP investment, it can readily check Protean Greninja, Battle Bond Greninja before it transforms by dint of Water Absorb (and even when it is Ashninja, they still have to predict right to hit you with Dark Pulse) as well as Mega Metagross even after taking Rocks damage. If you give it an AV and Flame Charge, as it threatens a lot of common mons (Heatran, defensive Lando, Metagross, Ferro, Scizor, Celesteela, Greninja) it can reasonably readily get to +1 Spe by forcing the switch and then becomes a capable cleaner of weakened teams as with +1 216+ Spe you outspeed most relevant threats apart from Koko, Weavile, Scarfmons, Ash-Greninja and Pheromosa. Additionally, with an AV, it starts to look more like a Greninja counter rather than a check with no rocks up, on the proviso that it isn't in the Ash-Greninja form yet. I normally wouldn't argue for an AV set, but I think the kind of power Ash-Greninja throws around definitely makes thinking about AV sets a good idea - particularly when you've got strong STABs like Steam Eruption and Fire Blast to work with that don't require heavy offensive investment to make worthwhile.

With the AV 160 HP / 128 SpA / 4 SpD- / 216 Spe+ spread I've been using as mentioned in the Underrated Sets thread (though the spread may look weird using both AV and a SpDef reducing nature, it really just averages Def and SpDef so they're more or less the same level keep bulk on both sides):

252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
128 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 138-164 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Volcanion Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 81-96 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO (non-Water Protean typing)
128 SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 243-286 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (non-Water Protean typing)

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 160 HP / 4- SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Volcanion Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 40-48 (14 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Volcanion Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 258-304 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

With this level of trolly mixed bulk even after taking rocks damage, Steam Eruption being a dreadful move to switch into, access to a decent speed tier at +1 Spe and that boost being reasonably accessible with the switches it forces, in addition to it checking or softly-countering 3/4 S ranked threats (well, defensive Lando if not offensive variants) I think it is an under-ranked threat and on-par with other B mons like Z-Dog. Additionally, I think more offensive sets could easily have legs too (Solar Beam paired with Grassium-Z and Flame Charge for example, or Flame Charge with LO/E-Belt and non-Greninja related coverage to hit Fairies harder) as well as bulkier sets which ditch Flame Charge for more well-rounded coverage.

Specs is worth an honourable mention, but I think the set is too easy to play around to be worth it due to Volcanion's low speed tier. Scarf can do the same things as Flame Charge without the setup turn, but naturally you're locked into a move making Volcanion much more of a cleaner which I think makes poor use of it's great coverage.

What would hold it back from being ranked higher is mainly it's issues with Pheromosa (who it can still check from full health without rocks at 160 HP) and Koko who are running around, and a SR weakness is never good regardless of the bulk it has. It also just barely checks things like Mega Meta after rocks as you can see above, so it's not the kind of thing that you can stick onto a team willy-nilly. Still, I think more people should be using it - I think the main reason it's a B- is people aren't trying it out. Try it out!
Your ash-greninja calcs are misleading because you are using regular greninja in those calculations. For reference:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 160-190 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO

There are so many issues with this set. It requires so much team support to even allow it to effectively check both Metagross and Greninja. What I mean by this is that with rocks up, Volcanion requires very little chip damage to be 2HKOd by both Ash-Greninja's dark pulse and M-Metagross' earthquake. Thus, it isn't really an effective 'check,' as it has no recovery and all metagross and greninja have to do to break it is click earthquake and dark pulse twice respectively. A good assault vest user should have 1) an excellent defensive typing that allows it to blanket check (avoid the 2HKO) from a significant portion of the tier, and/or 2) have some sort of recovery to stay healthy (regenerator, drain punch, leech life, etc.). Volcanion lacks both, and isn't an effective assault vest user as a result.


Finally, you fail to consider that metagross and greninja almost always work in offensive cores that aim to break down 'checks' like AV Volcanion. Examples include Metagross+lele and greninja+mega sharpedo/mega gyarados. While you can incorporate another mon on your team to ease pressure off of Volcanion to check these mons, you are committing way too many resources in teambuilding to support a suboptimal set. You need a dedicated hazard remover (1st slot), something to ensure that Volcanion doesn't get overwhelmed by the offensive cores that metagross and greninja are paired with (2nd slot), and finally the suboptimal Volcanion (3rd slot). You are committing literally half of your team to support Volcanion which is really inefficient given that you can just add a more effective core that takes up less moveslots/teamslots (for example, Tapu Fini+Celestella). Therefore, Volcanion really shouldn't rise based off of your argument, because I feel that I have brought up some very valid concerns that invalidate the set you recommend.
 
Your ash-greninja calcs are misleading because you are using regular greninja in those calculations. For reference:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 160-190 (46.9 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO
I did mention on three separate occasions it checks (and counters without rocks) before the form change. I think you weren't reading closely enough if you missed that detail. Having a set that counters before the form change, as very many people lead with Greninja, is a good idea, particularly when people like to lead and pivot out with it or stay in and cause hassle with Protean Greninja - potentially providing an opportunity to set Flame Charge.

In regards to after the form change, it still takes Choice Specs Dark Pulse well:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 160 HP / 4- SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It doesn't gain bulk with the form change so the other calcs remain the same, with rocks Super Power will OHKO - or you can risk Focus Miss if you prefer for a straight OHKO.

There are so many issues with this set. It requires so much team support to even allow it to effectively check both Metagross and Greninja. What I mean by this is that with rocks up, Volcanion requires very little chip damage to be 2HKOd by both Ash-Greninja's dark pulse and M-Metagross' earthquake. Thus, it isn't really an effective 'check,' as it has no recovery and all metagross and greninja have to do to break it is click earthquake and dark pulse twice respectively. A good assault vest user should have 1) an excellent defensive typing that allows it to blanket check (avoid the 2HKO) from a significant portion of the tier, and/or 2) have some sort of recovery to stay healthy (regenerator, drain punch, leech life, etc.). Volcanion lacks both, and isn't an effective assault vest user as a result.
I don't agree, for me the set provides bulk and good offences and is very hard to switch into, while maintaining an ability to clean without much effort. You say it takes very little chip damage, and that's true, but having the capability to check both Meta and Greninja and even counter a lot of Greninja sets is no small feat. Plus you don't need to keep it in reserve to deal with them, if you get to +1 Spe by forcing a switch then you much more directly counter them - particularly Metagross but also any pre-Ash Greninja form Greninja with any chip damage. That doesn't to me sound like a mon that requires huge support.

Plus, it really depends on what you're using the AV for. Here, it is literally there to handle some of the crazy hits Ash Greninja puts out so you can work as a check, while also increasing set-up opportunities for squeaking in a Flame Charge which makes you very threatening by adding some fat mixed bulk. AV can be used for more than the niche uses you're making out (just for mons that are hard walls and/or have recovery), particularly when the STABs the mon has are so formidable in the first place and don't require much offensive investment to maintain their pressure.

Finally, you fail to consider that metagross and greninja almost always work in offensive cores that aim to break down 'checks' like AV Volcanion. Examples include Metagross+lele and greninja+mega sharpedo/mega gyarados. While you can incorporate another mon on your team to ease pressure off of Volcanion to check these mons, you are committing way too many resources in teambuilding to support a suboptimal set. You need a dedicated hazard remover (1st slot), something to ensure that Volcanion doesn't get overwhelmed by the offensive cores that metagross and greninja are paired with (2nd slot), and finally the suboptimal Volcanion (3rd slot). You are committing literally half of your team to support Volcanion which is really inefficient given that you can just add a more effective core that takes up less moveslots/teamslots (for example, Tapu Fini+Celestella). Therefore, Volcanion really shouldn't rise based off of your argument, because I feel that I have brought up some very valid concerns that invalidate the set you recommend.
You're completely disregarding that it's STABs 2HKO the vast majority of the tier, so even when Meta and Greninja are present in these cores those mons don't want to switch in either - at the very least they risk a burn in cases like Mega Sharpedo/Gyarados (or you will hit them hard anyway, running Super Power at the +1 Spe if they've taken any residual). The bulk does allow for some 2HKOes, and even if you faint taking massive chunks out of the opponents cores can really give you the upper hand.

You're also over-exaggerating the support it needs, hazard removal is assuredly preferable - but that is true on 90% of teams - and as the calcs demonstrate it can still take hits for the heaviest hitters in the meta and often OHKO back after 25% rocks damage. I think this set is actually great at weakening many higher tier threats because of how difficult it is to switch in on and it's bulk even after rocks.

You've also totally ignored all the other mentions of more offensive sets it can ran, and how it is a mon that can pack coverage tuneable to the threats you want to face (Super Power, Focus Blast, Grassium-Z Solar Power, Sludge Wave, Earth Power, etc.) - which was a significant part of the argument. It's annoying to have a single part of a post while not considering the whole content. I'm currently sitting on 27 W - 4 L on my new account, and I'd say it's in a large part due to Volcanion's strong anti-meta capabilities.

I think you're playing up negatives that, while there, aren't quite the huge massive issues you're making them out to be. I would strongly encourage you to try the set before slamming it further, as you seem dead set on. I'm not really interested in going tit-for-tat on this, the set is there, the capabilities are listed, either that makes it B or it will remain B-. Even if the higher-ups still think it's more in the way of B-, people should try it (and by that I mean Volcanion as a whole, not just the set listed) out more.
 
Last edited:

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
A- -> A: No opinion: Gengar is super good right now, but I'm not quite sure it's A level. That's comparing it to mons like Zygarde, Magearna, Tangrowth, and Ferrothorn, all of which are very potent mons in this meta and I'm not sure Gengar brings enough to the table to be held equal to them. On the other hand, the meta is very in favor of Gengar at the moment. There are a whole 2 actual Ghost resists in the tier and many teams struggle to switch into this thing. Definitely a good mon, and I wouldn't mind it being bumped up to A, but I wouldn't mind it staying A- either.
I know you're not fully opposing it and all, but I can't help but be skeptical of the reasoning you employ that leaves you on the fence as opposed to being in favor of Gengar rising to A rank.

Saying a Pokemon is "super good" and proceeding to juxtapose that assertion by saying you're not quite sure if it's A level with the justification of name-dropping various Pokemon in A rank and labeling them "potent" is incredibly general and hardly proving any point at all, let alone convincing anyone on either side.

I think one of the key components of formulating an opinion when it comes to VR related matters requires looking at things in the context of the metagame and then looking at the other Pokemon in the tier in the context of the metagame. You appear to be doing this in an extremely condensed fashion, which I understand to an extent because who wants to post a fucking novel, but in doing so you neglected to provide any evidence as to why you think a certain way. If everyone where to post like this in the thread, then posting in the first place would essentially have no purpose whatsoever as you're bringing nothing novel or informative to the table. Moreover, expanding on what you mean by "super good" and why you believe all of the aforemention Pokemon are potent in the metagame while Gengar is not, comparatively speaking, would probably be ideal. Expanding off of this, I don't think I agree with your point.

I do think that Pokemon like Zygarde provide a unique offensive and defensive presence with various sets that can either be annoying or threatening to common team structures and Pokemon like Tangrowth and Ferrothorn are essentially defensive staples in the current metagame with incredibly useful defensive niches, utilities at their disposal, etc.. However, I think that Gengar is one of the best offensive threats in the tier due to the sheer lack of counterplay and while it does not receive nearly as much usage as any of the aforementioned Pokemon, it surely should be in discussion with them. There is nothing else in the tier that can spam its STAB quite as well as Gengar and given what it has at its disposal (speed, special attack, movepool, etc.), this makes it stand out as something that's able to do well against every archetype of team depending on the set and team it is used on. For example, Z-Ghost and the rare Black Sludge sets with Taunt, Wisp, Hex, and/or other utility moves can be incredibly problematic for slower, fat teams and stall, if used properly, while they don't have counters on offense, either. Additionally, Specs/LO variants are very threatening to balance and offensive teams as nothing really switches in and even specs can Trick Chansey or Toxapex on Stall, which adds onto the viability of these variants significantly. Finally, choice scarf Gengar is slowly falling out of favor and is not my personal Gengar of choice, but it tends to do well against offense as it can revenge kill many things and spam Shadow Ball while being the quickest thing in the battle most of the time, but it doesn't do much to bulkier teams unless it packs Trick or they're weakened significantly beforehand, admittedly. I'm well aware that many people shy away from using Gengar on their teams due to it providing minimal defensive presence, but it still can soft-check Pheromosa and switch into Tapu Fini once or twice, so it's not as hard to fit onto teams as one might think, in my opinion. Moreover, Gengar clearly fits into the context of the A rank and it is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier.
 

Scribble

formerly Dartrix - Joker
is a Contributor to Smogon
I know you're not fully opposing it and all, but I can't help but be skeptical of the reasoning you employ that leaves you on the fence as opposed to being in favor of Gengar rising to A rank.

Saying a Pokemon is "super good" and proceeding to juxtapose that assertion by saying you're not quite sure if it's A level with the justification of name-dropping various Pokemon in A rank and labeling them "potent" is incredibly general and hardly proving any point at all, let alone convincing anyone on either side.

I think one of the key components of formulating an opinion when it comes to VR related matters requires looking at things in the context of the metagame and then looking at the other Pokemon in the tier in the context of the metagame. You appear to be doing this in an extremely condensed fashion, which I understand to an extent because who wants to post a fucking novel, but in doing so you neglected to provide any evidence as to why you think a certain way. If everyone where to post like this in the thread, then posting in the first place would essentially have no purpose whatsoever as you're bringing nothing novel or informative to the table. Moreover, expanding on what you mean by "super good" and why you believe all of the aforemention Pokemon are potent in the metagame while Gengar is not, comparatively speaking, would probably be ideal. Expanding off of this, I don't think I agree with your point.

I do think that Pokemon like Zygarde provide a unique offensive and defensive presence with various sets that can either be annoying or threatening to common team structures and Pokemon like Tangrowth and Ferrothorn are essentially defensive staples in the current metagame with incredibly useful defensive niches, utilities at their disposal, etc.. However, I think that Gengar is one of the best offensive threats in the tier due to the sheer lack of counterplay and while it does not receive nearly as much usage as any of the aforementioned Pokemon, it surely should be in discussion with them. There is nothing else in the tier that can spam its STAB quite as well as Gengar and given what it has at its disposal (speed, special attack, movepool, etc.), this makes it stand out as something that's able to do well against every archetype of team depending on the set and team it is used on. For example, Z-Ghost and the rare Black Sludge sets with Taunt, Wisp, Hex, and/or other utility moves can be incredibly problematic for slower, fat teams and stall, if used properly, while they don't have counters on offense, either. Additionally, Specs/LO variants are very threatening to balance and offensive teams as nothing really switches in and even specs can Trick Chansey or Toxapex on Stall, which adds onto the viability of these variants significantly. Finally, choice scarf Gengar is slowly falling out of favor and is not my personal Gengar of choice, but it tends to do well against offense as it can revenge kill many things and spam Shadow Ball while being the quickest thing in the battle most of the time, but it doesn't do much to bulkier teams unless it packs Trick or they're weakened significantly beforehand, admittedly. I'm well aware that many people shy away from using Gengar on their teams due to it providing minimal defensive presence, but it still can soft-check Pheromosa and switch into Tapu Fini once or twice, so it's not as hard to fit onto teams as one might think, in my opinion. Moreover, Gengar clearly fits into the context of the A rank and it is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier.
You're correct in that I didn't want to post a novel, as I do not care much for Gengar's position on the VR and didn't really want to do so. I do agree that the reasoning I provided was extremely general, you're right on that. I'll elaborate here since I realize that my reasoning was not convincing as to why I'm on the fence. I'm still not going to post a novel as I don't feel strongly on this, but I'll go into the more detail you requested.

The pokemon I named, Zygarde, Magearna, Ferrothorn, and Tangrowth, are all definitely potent in the metagame.

Zygarde is an extremely reliable win condition, Its great bulk combined with its typing also allow it to be a check to Volcarona and Zard Y. It also allows it to use defensive variants of Mega Venusaur as set up fodder, Celesteela, and non HP Ice Tangrowth as set up fodder too, among others. A team that is weak to Zygarde will eventually be swept by Zygarde. It doesn't even need any coverage moves, as Thousand Arrows is such an amazing move on its own, which essentially gives Zygarde 3 free moveslots, which can be filled by some combination of Substitute, Coil, Dragon Dance, Outrage, Extreme Speed, and Toxic. Zygarde's EV spread is also flexible, and it could go bulky or more offensive. It's an extremely versatile mon, and is very reliable at what it does.

Magearna is also very versatile. It can run AV, Z move, Specs, Trick Room, etc. It has an amazing Steel/Fairy typing that makes it only weak to Fire/Ground. It serves as one of the tier's best answers to Tapu Lele, and its typing and bulk allows it to check some other threats such as Greninja, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, hell even Gengar. It also serves as a win condition with its Shift Gear set or Calm Mind set, or a win condition on Baton Pass teams as it's a very good receiver with Shuca Berry.

Ferrothorn has always been good, ever since its introduction. It's a fat, annoying mon, and without a way to reliably break through it it will just sit there and recover all its health and set up hazards on top of hazards. It serves as a check to Tapu Lele, non Hammer Arm Metagross, Lando-T, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, and many other mons in the meta.

Tangrowth has been on the rise in the past couple weeks, as its AV set checks like half the tier. It's one of the best pivots in the tier right now, and it's extremely splashable. If your team needs a Tapu Koko answer, just throw on Tangrowth! Ash Greninja weak? Throw on Tangrowth! What about Zygarde? Tangrowth! It's amazing ability in Regenerator and its good utility movepool allow it to check or counter all these things multiple times throughout the match.

Gengar, on the other hand, I've used a lot recently, and it has disappointed me to an extent. It's a solid A- mon, I can definitely see that, but it's almost dead weight against bulkier teams or stall teams if it lacks Trick. It can't really spam Sludge Wave when Mega Metagross, Celesteela, Magearna, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Magnezone, and Mega Scizor all exist and are all very common. It provides minimal defensive presence, though admittedly it being a soft Pheromosa check is useful. Its lack of defensive capabilities make it harder for this thing to even come in, and its very weak to priority. I'm not a fan of the scarf set. When I look for a scarfer I'd prefer one that can handle Volcarona over anything else, and Gengar can't do that. Scarf Gengar is pretty weak power wise. The set I found most success with was its Specs set, and even then, I found its power level to be pretty underwhelming, and the fact that it's Choice locked was pretty annoying too. It has a good speed tier, but it only ties with Mega Metagross, leaving it to be inconsistent in that 1v1. Greninja can also come in on Shadow Ball once, and Gengar is forced out. When compared to the other mons in A, I find Gengar to be much less consistent, and dead weight in certain matchups.
 
My thoughts on current noms:

Gengar

Many people have already commented on this, but Gengar's checks are still just as prevalent, and not much has changed in the meta to warrant a rise. Whereas in XY/ORAS it had no good switchins in the tier, now we have Celesteela, Magearna and Muk as well as a lot more offensive threats that stop Gengar in its tracks. Scarf is weak as shit if not super effective or against a paper mon and loses Taunt, making it much less flexible. It's still good but it fits in well with A-


Tapu Bulu

Bulu has become less effective with a shift in the meta towards offensive Celesteela, Gunk Greninja, Scizor and others that make it harder to spam. A lot of the things it beats, like Lando, Ash Gren, non BB Koko, have really spammable volt-turn moves that they commonly use, making its switches a waste. Overall I feel like it's much less effective than it once was.


Kyurem-B


Kyurem is still disgustingly strong and still doesn't have any hard checks. Its moveset is so unpredictable - switching to Scizor is dodgy, Magearna does not enjoy taking Earth Power or banded Fusion Bolt and Chanseys are not known for taking banded Outrages or Z-Freeze Shocks particularly well. It hasn't really lost any viability and is still just as awful to find switchins for as it always has.


Scizor-Mega


Not sure how this thing isn't considered one of the better A- mons to be honest. It is such a ridiculous Pokemon, countering so much at once including the near impossible task of countering MMeta. It's not at all passive and outside of stall is insanely difficult to keep all your checks/counters to. Its defensive and offensive presence is far too much for the current meta for it to be B+.

 
SD + Fight Z Kartana and Tapu Bulu, Hidden power Fire Latios and Greninja, and SD + Flynium Z/Rockium Z all lure and remove Mega Scizor.
None of these are lures.

An example of a lure is HP Fire Mega Metagross, since Mega Scizor beats in all other cases otherwise and HP Fire hits nothings but Scizor.

HP Fire Latios is not a lure since that's a standard coverage move on it. Fightium Z Kartana/Bulu, HP Fire Lati and Gren, and Z-move lando are all common sets.
 

Mega Scizor B+----->B rank

Mega Scizor is incredibly easy to bait and remove in this metagame. SD + Fight Z Kartana and Tapu Bulu, Hidden power Fire Latios and Greninja, and SD + Flynium Z/Rockium Z all lure and remove Mega Scizor. It finds itself as Setup Bait For Volcarona, Mega Zard X, Gyrados, Calm Mind Tapu Fini, Kartana, Automatize Celesteela, and Landourus Therian , as all it can do to them is just U-Turn out. One top of that, using Mega Scizor comes with an opportunity cost. Since Scizor takes up your mega slot, you cant run similar megas such as mega metagross. But the main problem I find with Mega Scizor is that it can't compare itself to other mons in B+ such as Z Terrakion, Gyrados And Salamence all of which need little support to set up and end things. It finds itself spamming roost all the too often which basically lets in your opponents sweeper in for free, or just simply run out of PP altogether. Tapu Fini is better as a hazard remover, Tyranitar is a more effective trapper, and Skarmory outshines it ( in most scenarios). And all of the aforementioned pokemon don't take up a Mega slot. We could mention its other flaws too, such as how its dead weight against stall, or how Psychic Terain blocks Bullet Punch, but I think I made my point clear for now.

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Scizor-Mega: 323-381 (94.1 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Scizor-Mega: 349-411 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Scizor-Mega: 302-359 (88 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Scizor-Mega: 333-392 (97 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

As you can see, Mega Scizor just can't stand up to the current metagame. At all.
Most of those calcs are somewhat misleading, as three of your four were done with pokemon at +2, whereas Scizor would typically U-Turn out of the threats (these days, most M-Scizors I see run Bullet Punch, U-Turn, Roost and Defog/SD) as they SD to get to +2, allowing for a check/counter to them to come in instead of M-Scizor. M-Scizor is thus only going to face these actual attacks rarely, so they are hardly relevant. The only way they really threaten Scizor is if it switches in on a SD, then takes a hit, or is foolish enough to stay in against mons it cannot do too much against. In addition, of this list only Landorus-T is a top tier threat, the rest are good but not meta-defining threats.

M-Scizor does struggle in this meta more than in ORAS, but still has a good role as a bulky mega that can pack a punch, and it's defensive typing is second to none. To my mind, it's quite happy where it is, and the above calcs aren't too relevant.
 
Those calcs dont really mean anything. Of course a +2 z move from common powerhouses can OHKO scizor, as well as a 4x effective move from LO lati. Scizor is a very good pokemon still, and should not go down to the level of Kingdra/Zydog/etc. The pokemon in B generally have specified roles and fulfill a niche well (like rain) and/or are hard to justify a team slot for. Scizor is a good mon that checks Metagross (and is pretty much the only mon to do so) and also can blanket check a ton with its typing, not to mention priority, slow uturn, sd, hazard control, reliable recovery. While you can't do all of this on the same set, you can pick a few for great role compression and also do things no other mon can do. IMO A- or B+, but no lower. I haven't decided how bad the opportunity cost really is but there's no way mega scizor is below B+.
 
For a mon to effectively bait something in, the target has to have a reasonably good match up under the majority of scenarios to want to come in. Z-move Landorus-T is arguably its best set, and HP Fire is common enough on Latios that Scizor would scout for it before trying to check it. Those sets being standard is precisely why they don't work for your proposed reasoning: Scizor won't switch into Latios if the standard set has HP Fire, and it doesn't have much to break the other targets itself even if it sponges hits from Kartana or Lando-T. If those match ups affected Mega Scizor, they're what put him down in B+ compared to last Gen's A+ to begin with, they're not driving him any lower. Kartana's low ranked and mons that Scizor could check and beat properly are dropping in usage or not usable right now, like the Latis, Kyurem-B, and Megas such as Gardevoir.

I'd argue that Mega Scizor is fine where it is. The drop to B+ already represents its overall decline from ORAS because of the shift in bulky teams, but it nonetheless is holding onto its defensive ability to check Metagross (best Offensive Mega in the tier for sure) and a slow defensive U-Turn. Scizor's main issue is that its power doesn't cut it with how much more Steel heavy the meta has gotten, he's much less capable of breaking mons down rather than knocking off items, taking hits, and U-Turning around, utility application rather than a combination of offensive and defensive synergy.
 
Definitely better than other B- mons like Mimikyu, Latias, and Mega Gyrados.
This is not true, or poorly worded. Omastar is usuable in only one team archetype, which is Rain teams. Omastar is a 100% niche Pokémon in the Overused tier, and his only niche is, well, rain teams. This is not the case for the three Pokémon you mentionned.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Kingdra can stop water shuriken from greninja which is crucial for rain and the power difference is minimal they probably achieve nearly the same amount of KOs if you compare Surf Omastar vs Hydro Pump Kingdra.

The reason you would use Omastar us for shell smash + waterium as it can break through venusaur and tapu fini in rain not for specs which kingdra does better
 
Omastar is Better than kingdra.
Well when you put it that way I have no choice but to agree.

For real though:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Omastar in Rain: 333-396 (118.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash in Rain: 269-317 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Ash Greninja easily OHKOs if rain is up, meaning the rain player needs to make tricky switches. Ash Greninja can be quite effective against rain and can do some work if the rain player's Ferrothorn/Gastrodon/whatever is worn down.

Omastar is also slow af, with a modest nature it's still slower than Pheromosa+every scarfer under rain. If you run timid, it's barely stronger than Kingdra, which is the main reason for even thinking of running it in the first place. It doesn't have a useful secondary STAB like Kingdra does (lol ancient power), and if Knocking Off Chansey is a priority then you need to predict that. Kingdra has some tech for Chansey too, such as a mixed set. Omastar's extra power is outweighed by the lower speed and worse type. It's not ORAS anymore, where the most common priority is Brave Bird and the fastest non-scarfers only hit 405 Speed.

Basically, Specs Omastar is not a great set in this metagame, and it's not the reason why it's ranked.
 
Kingdra's Dragon STAB is excellent for hitting Grass- and Water-types. Omastar has Ice Beam and Hidden Power, which are clearly not on the same level as a poweful Draco Meteor. Draco Meteor makes Kingdra incredibly difficult to stop and smacks through things like Latios to give Keldeo a field day in Rain. So, no, Dragon is not a "horrible offensive typing" and Omastar is in no world better tha Kingdra.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
It doesn't make sense to rank a rain abuser above the rain setter unless it's a clearer meta game threat. An example is in ORAS when Excadrill ranked above Tyranitar for some time due to how potent it was as a cleaner.

Not only is Omastar not a more meta defining threat than Pelipper, whose viability it relies upon, it is not better than Kingdra. Omastar is so slow that some common Scarfers such as Keldeo actually outspeed and beat it even when Rain is up. Kingdra outspeeds all scarfers bar Pheromosa and has better defensive typing to take a hit when it needs to. Furthermore, Choice Specs is not even Omastar's best set - it is Shell Smash with Waterium Z.

Posing Specs Omastar as more viable than Specs Kingdra and Pelipper both leaves me very unconvinced by your arguments for a rise. I think this point has been beaten to death so it may be a good idea to move on.

I think Mega Scizor is closers to rising than falling, fwiw. I also think Toxapex could be considered for a rise, simply because it is so damn difficult to KO and checks a large portion of the meta. While it is passive, it has utility options like Haze, Scald, and Toxic which prevent it from being total setup fodder. Its typing is also exceptional, as it's immune to poison which is fantastic defensively.
 
I think we've passed the previously mentioned point of "arguing on bad points" as mentioned earlier.

From a different scrub, is there perhaps anything to discuss about Zygarde's placement perhaps? I feel like the rise of bulky Steel types and Tangrowth for Mega Metagross would do it some favors, and Tapu Bulu's on a decline given its nomination to drop. The Toxic set is still an effective Stallbreaker, but I'm wondering if it's getting better or worse with things like Pheromosa also having moved up.

Could I get a reminder about the rest of the discussion points on the council's radar?
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
In what world will Greninja not only transform by using water shuriken and then send out omastar against it? How does kingdra run a mixed set? How is kindra's secondary stab usefull? (dragon is a horrible offensive typing). In what world will a player sack ferro while ash gren is still alive? Like, for real.
hi

1) the world that Greninja kills Omastar with Water Shuriken is the world where Greninja transforms earlier in the match (easy considering youre giving it rain), and then simply revenge killers Omastar later. Obviously due to Kingdra's 4x resist, Kingdra does not fall to this. If we are talking about switch ins, then obviously Kingdra again has an a edge because it can actually switch into the move, and Omastar can not
2) Kingdra's secondary STAB is useful for dealing damage to certain water-type resists that Omastar can not really hit as hard. Venusaur, Keldeo, Rotom and Toxapex come to mind. It's also worth mentioning that while Omastar has Ice Beam, Draco Meteor is obviously much stornger than Ice Beam, so there are less situations where prediction would be necessary
3) im not sure what you mean by this, but I think youre implying that ferrothorn is necessary team support for Omastar because of the Greninja weakness. Great, Ferrothorn can do that, but obviously this is restrictve to teambuilding. This extra freedom makes Kingdra better.

Omastar is just too slow to be a better rain Specs user than Kingdra. While it does certainly have a better matchup against Chansey, which is nice, that's pretty much all it has going for it. Water/Rock really isn't a better defensive typing at all.
 
In what world will Greninja not only transform by using water shuriken and then send out omastar against it? How does kingdra run a mixed set? How is kindra's secondary stab usefull? (dragon is a horrible offensive typing). In what world will a player sack ferro while ash gren is still alive? Like, for real.
Dragon isn't a horrible offensive typing at all. It has one resist and one immunity and hits everything else for at least neutral. Draco Meteor is so powerful that nothing really wants to take it at all. Also, unlike Rock, which is up there with Ice and Psychic as one of the worst Defensive Typing's in the whole game, Dragon has key resists that make it more viable overall. Water/Dragon is superior in every way to Water/Rock in that way. Now, does this make Omastar bad? Nope. It is still good. However, Specs Kingdra is significantly faster than Specs Omastar, has better SpDef, and can easily spam moves and has only limited weaknesses. Omastar is just harder to use Specs and is outclassed by Kingdra. Omastar is good to Smash up and end the game. Kingdra is good to just break walls with easily spammed moves and weaken teams. Omastar has its place, but I don't see why it needs to go higher up. I think it is in a good spot.
 

Leo

after hours
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
"Offensive typing" means how many types it hits for Super effective/neutral damage not what it resists. But enough with omastar anyway.
I think that's what he meant actually since it hits everything for neutral bar Steel (resist) and Fairy (immune)
 
"Offensive typing" means how many types it hits for Super effective/neutral damage not what it resists. But enough with omastar anyway.
That is silly. With that logic, Ghost would be a bad offensive typing since it only hits two things for Super Effective damage. Dragon, Ghost and Normal STAB all have limited "super-effective hits" but all are very hard to just switch into without fear. What Resists Dragon? Two things. What resists Ghost? Two things. What resists Normal? Three things. Once you weaken or get rid of these resists, all three types are easily spam-able moves that require minimal prediction. To me that makes them good offensively.
 

hecatomb

Banned deucer.
Blissey C- to C. I think people underestimate how good Blissey can be on stall, with eviolite being nerfed chansey can be annoying at times. Though on stall I think Blissey can be used better, she pretty much takes like no damage from sp attacks, and seeing how most of the top mons all use sp attacks, she can just wall them off. Pheromosa, landorus t and mega metagross give chansey problems. If Blissey gets knocked off, she only loses leftovers, if chansey gets knocked off, she just becomes useless. I dont think Blissey is that great on offense, though just try her on stall she is really good.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 3)

Top