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Resource SM PU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'PU' started by Megazard, Sep 13, 2017.

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  1. Megazard

    Megazard I'll show you the life of the mind!
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    art by Dibs The Dreamer
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    Most of you know the drill by now, but if you don't: viability rankings are a method of sorting Pokemon in a given tier based on how good they are in said tier. S rank is reserved for the defining Pokemon of the tier, while D rank is the place for near unviable Pokemon that have almost no worthwhile use in the metagame. As the metagame changes, the rankings are periodically updated by players who are well-versed in the tier. Note that ranks are currently done alphabetically and not by viability, this may change like it did last gen.

    Do not post one-liners in this thread. Unless it is an exceptional sentence that is able to justify or explain something in a few words, one-liners rarely contribute anything of value to a thread. For NFEs not already included in the viability rankings (or even already included): put the effort into actually investigating its uses in the metagame and providing substantial FACTS and REPLAYS to prove your point before you post. Opinions contribute very little to the discussion if they do not have something to back them up, nor do posts that look at a single point and ignore everything else that has been said. When arguing for a Pokemon's ranking, account for opposition, and do not attempt to ignore the drawbacks of a Pokemon either.
    If nominating an unranked Pokemon to be ranked, it is highly recommended that you get feedback from the PU room and/or Discord beforehand to make sure that there is a concrete reason that said Pokemon deserves to be ranked.

    For this thread, remember this: it is not on the community to do the research and debating for your proposed change. If you want something to rise, drop, or be added, please do the work to gather the evidence. And if you made a nomination that didn't go through, it didn't get ignored, and feel free to ask for reasonings by VM'ing a mod, or asking in the SQSA or PU discord chat (but please do not ask in this thread). Also contact a mod if you find a small error (Pokemon being out of alphabetical order, etc.) rather than posting in the thread about it.

    PU does not use rank descriptions like some other tiers do. Each Pokemon in a rank should just be seen as above or under Pokemon in other ranks rather than needing to fit a certain set of criteria.

    PU Viability Rankings

    S-Rank

    • [​IMG] Archeops
    • [​IMG] Mesprit
    • [​IMG] Skuntank


    A-Rank

    A+


    • [​IMG] Carracosta
    • [​IMG] Gurdurr
    • [​IMG] Jynx
    • [​IMG] Magmortar
    • [​IMG] Oricorio-Sensu
    • [​IMG] Primeape
    • [​IMG] Qwilfish
    A
    • [​IMG] Ferroseed
    • [​IMG] Hitmonchan
    • [​IMG] Lanturn
    • [​IMG] Lilligant
    • [​IMG] Musharna
    • [​IMG] Pyroar
    • [​IMG] Raichu-Alola
    • [​IMG] Regirock
    • [​IMG] Weezing

    A-

    • [​IMG] Abomasnow
    • [​IMG] Drampa
    • [​IMG] Exeggutor-Alola
    • [​IMG] Floatzel
    • [​IMG] Gastrodon
    • [​IMG] Golurk
    • [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    • [​IMG] Miltank
    • [​IMG] Sableye
    • [​IMG] Swanna
    • [​IMG] Type: Null

    B-Rank

    B+

    • [​IMG] Absol
    • [​IMG] Aggron
    • [​IMG] Clefairy
    • [​IMG] Eelektross
    • [​IMG] Gourgeist-Super
    • [​IMG] Kabutops
    • [​IMG] Ludicolo
    • [​IMG] Lycanroc
    • [​IMG] Palossand
    • [​IMG] Pinsir
    • [​IMG] Raticate-Alola
    • [​IMG] Shiftry
    • [​IMG] Stoutland
    • [​IMG] Throh

    B
    • [​IMG] Dugtrio-Alola
    • [​IMG] Haunter
    • [​IMG] Liepard
    • [​IMG] Passimian
    • [​IMG] Persian-Alola
    • [​IMG] Silvally-Fairy
    • [​IMG] Togedemaru
    • [​IMG] Zangoose

    B-
    • [​IMG] Audino
    • [​IMG] Articuno
    • [​IMG] Combusken
    • [​IMG] Cradily
    • [​IMG] Golem
    • [​IMG] Gorebyss
    • [​IMG] Leafeon
    • [​IMG] Lurantis
    • [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    • [​IMG] Oricorio-Pom-Pom
    • [​IMG] Poliwrath
    • [​IMG] Probopass
    • [​IMG] Torterra
    • [​IMG] Ursaring

    C-Rank

    C+

    • [​IMG] Altaria
    • [​IMG] Arbok
    • [​IMG] Bronzor
    • [​IMG] Carbink
    • [​IMG] Crabominable
    • [​IMG] Crustle
    • [​IMG] Gourgeist-Average
    • [​IMG] Granbull
    • [​IMG] Jumpluff
    • [​IMG] Kadabra
    • [​IMG] Kecleon
    • [​IMG] Komala
    • [​IMG] Leavanny
    • [​IMG] Mawile
    • [​IMG] Misdreavus
    • [​IMG] Mudsdale
    • [​IMG] Munchlax
    • 198.png Murkrow
    • [​IMG] Ninjask
    • [​IMG] Pawniard
    • [​IMG] Sandslash
    • [​IMG] Silvally-Ghost
    • [​IMG] Roselia
    • [​IMG] Toucannon
    • [​IMG] Turtonator
    • [​IMG] Victreebel
    • [​IMG] Vigoroth
    • [​IMG] Volbeat

    C
    • [​IMG] Cacturne
    • [​IMG] Chatot
    • [​IMG] Drifblim
    • [​IMG] Dusknoir
    • [​IMG] Exeggutor
    • [​IMG] Gourgeist-Small
    • 326.png Grumpig
    • [​IMG] Lapras
    • [​IMG] Lycanroc-Midnight
    • [​IMG] Manectric
    • [​IMG] Masquerain
    • [​IMG] Meowstic-M
    • 375.png Metang
    • [​IMG] Muk
    • [​IMG] Ninetales
    • [​IMG] Prinplup
    • [​IMG] Pyukumuku
    • [​IMG] Regice
    • [​IMG] Rotom-Frost
    • [​IMG] Tangela
    • [​IMG] Togetic
    • [​IMG] Wishiwashi
    • [​IMG] Zebstrika

    C-

    • [​IMG] Basculin
    • [​IMG] Beheeyem
    • [​IMG] Bibarel
    • [​IMG] Camerupt
    • [​IMG] Electivire
    • [​IMG] Electrode
    • [​IMG] Hippopotas
    • 367.png Huntail
    • [​IMG] Lumineon
    • [​IMG] Natu
    • [​IMG] Rampardos
    • [​IMG] Rapidash
    • 586.png Sawsbuck
    • [​IMG] Shiinotic
    • [​IMG] Silvally-Ground
    • [​IMG] Silvally-Steel
    • [​IMG] Swoobat

    D-Rank

    D

    • [​IMG] Beartic
    • [​IMG] Bouffalant
    • [​IMG] Ditto
    • [​IMG] Duosion
    • [​IMG] Dusclops
    • 133.png Eevee
    • [​IMG] Gabite
    • [​IMG] Golem-Alola
    • [​IMG] Kingler
    • [​IMG] Marowak
    • [​IMG] Rotom-Spin
    • [​IMG] Silvally-Dragon
    • [​IMG] Simisage
    • [​IMG] Simipour
    • [​IMG] Stunfisk
    • [​IMG] Vullaby
    E-Rank

    Everything else
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017 at 8:51 PM
  2. UBERSkitty

    UBERSkitty

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    98
    So, here are some of the first nominations that came to mind.

    [​IMG] Stoutland C+ ---> B

    Stoutland is simply a great wallbreaker. It has a great Attack stat, a nice movepool, and the amazing wonder for the ability that is Scrappy. This makes it remain an incredibly difficult mon to safely switch in on if it isn't locked into a move yet, with Return to hit most of the tier, Superpower to hit those Rock and Steel types, Facade if they ever try to cripple you with status, and Pursuit to trap things in or Crunch to hit Bronzor. It also has its secondary role of being a great Sand Sweeper, which may not be as good as its wallbreaker self, its still notable. Its main setback is in its competition from Zangoose and Kangaskhan, but even then Zangoose is pretty easily widdled down by its Toxic Orb, and Kangaskhan simply doesn't put the same damage output, making Stoutland all the more preferable Normal wallbreaker.

    [​IMG]Gourgeist-XL B+ ---> A-

    Gourgeist-XL can be an amazing check for many physical attackers, with a combination of great Defense, Synthesis, Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, and Foul Play, to take advantage of these mon's Attack stat and use it against them. It doesn't depend on Lefties, so it can hold a berry such as Colbur to better handle against these potential threats to your team, such as Knock Off on Gurdurr. Even without the berries, it still manages to wall mons that carry potential coverage for it, such as Ice Punch Hitmonchan. It also has Its typing also allows it to furthermore by a nice spinblocker and check things such as Fighting types. However, I can see why Gourgeist-XL has fallen in comparison to Gen 6. It ends up in a lot of win-or-lose situations, since many special attackers can break through it somewhat easily, particularly all the Fire types running around, on top of the competition it gets from Sableye and, to an extent, Weezing. But I still believe it makes up for this as it remains a large threat to many physical attackers, and is deserving of a spot on A- of the VR.
  3. GeneralAnnoyance

    GeneralAnnoyance

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    204
    Rises
    [​IMG]Abomasnow B+ > A-: This mon is incredibly good in this meta. It fairs well vs offense+balance and can serve as a natural Archeops/Lilligant/A-Egg/Corios check with Ice shard. Nothing outside of Bronzor switches into its STAB + Eq and it hits a high enough speed tier to reliably come in on rockers like golurk and pilo. Additionally, Hail damage on the switch prevents leftovers recovery from thick fat users + audino so not much actually enjoys switching in. Definitely would put this at A- due to its ability to check/pressure a ton of the A->S ranks and it's ability to come in on walls and put immediate pressure on.

    [​IMG]Sensu B > A-: Sensu is really anti-meta right now. Its speed tier lets it check hitmonchan (which a lot of people are using as a frail-ish AV user on offense) and zangoose which has very few switch ins on offense already. Z-Hurricane + Sub forces 50/50 OHKOs on skuntank and can secure an easy kill if you bluff a scarf set. The ghost typing allowing it to come in on priority fightings is huge in this meta and because of its ability you can use it to deter Lilligant Quivers as well.
    [​IMG] Swanna B > A-: The second best defogger in the tier. At some points I'd consider it tied with skuntank before qwil and mesprit dropped. The prevalence of lanturn cores has shaped the meta quite heavy but swanna is still a force to be reckoned with. Due to its base 98 speed it's capable of coming in and defogging quite reliably vs many of the fighting types and bulky wallbreakers in the tier. It's by far the best webs remover as it outspeeds common webs abusers like goose/ape/absol. Being able to threaten the vast majority of rockers is also huge for its removal ability. Solely by looking at A->S it can come in on Gurdurr, Ape, Regi, A-Egg, Golurk, Qwil, Seed, Mortar, Pilo, Weezing, Sable, Costa. Flying/Water Stab has very few resists on teams not running lanturn. Mon is just so good in this meta. Additionally (and I know there are those who will refute this), Def Swanna isn't bad at all. The defensive set isn't as good as the offensive but it provides the mon with versatility on teams needing a fighting resist and a remover in the same slot.
    [​IMG]Zangoose B > A: Zangoose is easily one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. Nothing switches into it outside of sableye and even then sable is taking ~40% from a knock off. Goose has coverage to beat literally everything in the meta and it can easily be put on volt/turn to get the toxic orb off on the unsuspecting switch. Goose definitely took a hit once scyther rose due to losing one of its best partners but lanturn/ape/corios/ect still gives it plenty of options. The AoA with QA set is superior to SD atm due to its ability to threaten rocks/steel and do huge damage to pick off frail scarfer/setup sweepers with QA.
    Calcs (open)
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 201-237 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 301-355 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 184-218 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 201-237 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    [​IMG]Clefairy B- > B: Clef is still really good. Gets CM, serves as fighting/dark resist, sets up on ferroseed, survives physical hits from archeops and company and can twave them back. It gets rocks and is immune to status. It's still a quality mon and definitely deserves to be a bit higher.
    [​IMG]Golem C+ > B: I've been using this mon a lot recently and it still does a lot of things right in this meta. Normal resist + Electric immunity is huge for role compression as it was last gen and prio sucker punch gives it options for handling frail psychic sweepers. Common stuff like weezing, torterra, priority fighting moves keep it down but serving as a normal/flying resist + and electric immunity is still huge for me when building.
    [​IMG] Articuno C > B: With Klinklang gone articuno has had a huge opportunity to shine. Nothing outside of Probo/Aggron resists freeze dry/hurricane. Cuno has the speed at base 85 and bulk to revenge priority fighting types and Skunktank. It beats most "ice resists" like lanturn and does huge damage to balance builds utilizing walls like weezing/gastro/gourg. It can abuse the fact that Special Skunk sludge bomb can't break sub. It can PP stall fire blasts. Another thing that's huge for art this gen is that it got a ton of remover options it synergizes well with and keeping rocks off the field for it is a lot easier than in past generations.
    [​IMG]Bronzor C > B/B+: A bit passive, Skunk counters it, weak to fires and fires are super good this gen. Yeah, I hear ya. But it also resists normal/flying types better than almost any other mon, checks archeops, weezing, pilo, jynx, kangaskhan, lilligant, miltank, regirock, abomasnow, granbull, and the list goes on. The mon suffers from not being able to recover reliably without rest but it checks so much of the meta it's ridiculous and needs to be accounted for.
    [​IMG] Stoutland C+ > B: Mon comes in on sableye, doesn't mind t-spikes, doesn't mind lazy "ghost as your normal resist" builds. It's still a prominent meta threat. I often find that zangoose is better but stout has a better niche at wallbreaking ghosts and has more longevity due to not being on a timer and being able to take hits and ohko offensive threats back.
    [​IMG] Aggron B- > B: Lots of weaknesses but similar to the role golem serves. Here we have a real mans normal/flying resist. Fire punch to lure ferroseed. Checks psychic types with fairy coverage like mush/mesprit. Weezing also can get 2hko'd by head smash depending on the set it's running.
    [​IMG]Floatzel B > B+: Outspeeds archeops and hits super hard with phys/special/mixed sets. Access to Z-focus blast is big for stuff like miltank, and it has coverage to hit everything on offense not running a lanturn pivot. Really underrated in this meta and if you look on viability A- > S, the special set finds tons of ins on walls to click LO Hydro/Beam.
    Drops
    [​IMG]Togetic B- > C-: Send this mon to the shadow realm. Togetic is so god awful at what it's trying to do there is very little reason to use it in this meta. It can't defog on any rocker/tspiker/spiker outside of torterra not running edge and more importantly it's so passive it can't even threaten them out. Knock off+rocks cripple it. Hitmon Ice Punch+rocks does heavy damage. It's just not something I would ever even consider running. We have so many better answers to fighting types and hazards in general.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  4. Taskr

    Taskr
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    391
    First off I wanna start with some noms already made that I agree with.

    [​IMG] B+ > A- : Abomasnow's coverage in this meta tends to be unresisted as a lot of teams only pack Ice resists in the form of Lanturn or Piloswine whereas actual counters like Bronzor and Munchlax are pretty uncommon. Abomasnow can also viably use an SD set which can blow back usual specially defensive switch ins such as AV Hitmonchan and Throh.

    [​IMG] B+ > A- : Oricorio-Sensu has the ability to run multiple sets, all of which work really well. Choice Scarf is a great late game cleaner as Ghost type is nearly unresisted coverage meaning that weakened teams can often be picked off late game. Z-Hurricane is great against stuff like Skuntank as GA mentioned and it's ability to act as a pseudo spin-blocker for offense is handy role compression.

    [​IMG] B > B+ : Mostly the same reasons as GA, Zangoose is able to hit incredibly hard and can really destroy playstyles such as Balance or Bulky Offense only hindered by it's ability to be worn down quickly.

    [​IMG] B- > C+ : This mon is a complete momentum drain for any type of Offensive playstyle whilst not even being a great defogger for Balance or Stall as it's weak to rocks itself and loses to common rockers/spikers. However I don't believe it should drop all the way to C- as it can take on threats such as Gurdurr and Absol lacking Iron Tail.

    Okay time for some nominations of my own.

    [​IMG] C- > C+ : Pawniard really does not deserve to be this low. I understand why due to the prevelance of Fighting types now but Pawniard can still be threatening against teams without sturdy ones such as Gurdurr or Poliwrath. It finds set up opportunities on stuff like Knock Off Sableye, Physical Skuntank and Defensive Mespirit.

    [​IMG] C+ > B- : Palossand is a great check to a plethora of physical attackers such as Primeape, Archeops and Zangoose. It can spinblock decently well and take on Electric types too allowing for good role compression. Although it doesn't have access to Stealth Rock, you can pair it with a different rocker such as Regirock or Carracosta meaning it isn't that hard to fit on teams either.

    [​IMG] B- > B : Lurantis is a decent defogger in this metagame as it can take on common rockers such as Regirock, Carracosta and Golem. It can also be a massive threat to defensive teams as Contrary Leaf Storm damage builds up quickly and can be hard to stop.

    [​IMG] D > C- : Pyukumuku is a key asset to Stall builds. With Quagsire leaving Pyukumuku is the only viable Unaware user we have left and that in itself leads me to believe it should be higher up in terms of the rankings.

    Now I'm going to mention some drops.

    [​IMG] C+ > C : Vullaby suffers from a similar situation to Togetic although it's less of a momentum drain due to its ability to U-turn. Vullaby is really hard to fit on teams as even though it's key resistances are Dark, Ghost and Psychic, it is still beaten or heavly pressured by stuff like Absol, Raticate-Alola, Oricorio-Sensu, Ice Beam Mespirit and Fairium Z Musharna.

    [​IMG] C > C- : Pidgeot's niches in this metagame are very limited and probably only come down to the use of Z-moves but in most situations I feel like Archeops and Toucannon are just better options in general.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  5. Megazard

    Megazard I'll show you the life of the mind!
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Just wanna make a formal announcement that we are officially removing the E rank. Even without the Silvally formes it was a massive project just to list all the Pokemon that ended up here but aren't usable at all, and it serves no real discernible purpose. If you believe any of it had a small niche in the metagame and would like to see it ranked, that's what D is for.
  6. rhydonphilip

    rhydonphilip

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    189
    Number of mons to talk about:
    [​IMG]
    Guzzlord B -> A/A+:
    It's rediculess to see Guzzlord, a mon without any switchins and all opportunity in the world to switch into common threats and it is ranked B mid. Guzzlord is able to reliably switch into a number of pokemon(LO Pyroar, Oricorio-Sensu, Weezing and it doesn't even have to take risks doing so with the already less bulky Specs set.).
    Only max special defense pokemon such as SpD Miltank, Munchlax or Type: Null are able to answere it and neither of those even have the offense to pressure it back if it were to take the route of spamming dark pulse. Fairy/steel types might prevent it from spamming Draco, but neither can switch into specs Sludge Bomb/Fire Blast or Sludge Wave/Flamethrower respectively, not even speaking of how they are OHKO'd by that(Exept Clefairy).

    Replay showcasing how structually fair this pokemon is:
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-628675043

    Some damage calcs to give a better idea:
    Show Hide

    252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 208-247 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Mesprit Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 372-440 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Oricorio-Ghost Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 183-216 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 SpA Oricorio-Ghost Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 459-541 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mesprit: 273-322 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Guzzlord Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    I can place near countless damage calc on here but I question the point when these above 2 provide the fact that it is a wallbreaker.


    Rain:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Ludicolo/Kabutops (B/B+ -> A-/A):
    Both these pokemon are best at abusing what once was seen as an insane play style. To put it simply, ferroseed, roselia, cradily and abomasnow are the closest relevant things to counter ludicolo without mentioning more limited checks such as Swanna/Guzzlord. Only Ferroseed/Abomasnow are directly viable at that and all ferroseed can do is get worn alongside it and proceed to slowly ruin ludicolo while ferroseed itself is down to no health as well.
    Abomasnow is a subject for later in the post but to put it simply, it's relevant enough to hinder their direct impact. But that is without mentioning Kabutops who can proceed to KO Abomasnow, has acces to Rockium Z + SD to get past weezing, acces to priority to stop anything thinking it can revengekill and has answeres all worn or brought down by Ludicolo. Yea, it needs to be paired with Liepard, Damp Mesprit or Volbeat but the gain is straigh up undeniable.
    I kinda want to trow in how Kabutops without Rain can disassemble teams but I wanted to put attention to how major rain is in this meta.

    [​IMG]
    Abomasnow (B+ -> A-/A):
    Slow, pretty poor defensive type... but that offense is sooo good. Acces to always accurate Blizzard, Giga Drain to beat any water type trying to switch into that, acces to Earthquake to KO Magmortar or any fire thinking they can take adavantage of your spam and Stab Priority in Ice Shard to assure dominance.
    There is little this slow wallbreaker can't keep pressence on as even after it leaves the field pokemon will be chiped down by hail. As for the subject of Hail, it beats rain and grants you the ability to outwall and even outspeed(with +speed nature) Ludicolo as those run modest. I understand it's not the easiest thing to switch in with a number of more specific things it wants to take adavantage off and the fact it still has answeres in the likes of spD Miltank. But nothing close to the extraordinary compaired to higher ranked pokemon such as Magmortar and Golurk.

    [​IMG]
    Regirock (A- -> A+):
    Regirock is easily one of the most versatile blank answere to common threats in this metagame and is a reliable rocker. Ranging from the ability to check nearly any strong physical attacker down(arceheops, zangoose-ish) to taking on some of the scariest special attackers such as Pyroar. Being able to take up to 2 HP Grasses from Specs Pyroar and 2 from Lo Pyroar with SR up on the field. Because it's utility is shown in the replay on both sides of the field I didn't include another replay for this, but here are some damage calcs:
    Show Hide

    252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 143-169 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    184 Atk Regirock Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pyroar: 338-398 (107.9 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 73.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 96-114 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- 16.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Kangaskhan Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 114-136 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    4 SpA Archeops Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 136-160 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 112-134 (30.7 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    +2 252+ Atk Hustle Raticate-Alola Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 282-333 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Skuntank Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 84-100 (23 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Skuntank Hidden Power Grass vs. -2 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (-2 from acid spay)

    Sadly can't take on solar power Solar beam from charizard:
    252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Regirock in Sun: 328-386 (90.1 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Because of the size of this post the following nominations will be cut in size:

    Swanna(B to A-): Flyinium Z set is one of the best offensive hazard removers able to pressure loads of the tier and filling the role of an offensive water type all at once. User GeneralAnnoyance put most of what I wanted to say here already.

    Raichu-Alola(somewhere in A/A-/A+): LO Nasty Plot OHKO's the tier ''lol'', pretty frail with some notable opportunity for common pokemon to revenge kill but still effectively able to set up on forced switches and weak special attackers. After that you have a +2 boosted 110 speed powerhouse with the coverage to beat on Guzzlord, Ferroseed, Exeggutor-Alola and anything thinking they take a hit from you. And then it also has Z-Hold Hands/Happy Hour, Specs Pivot, Z-attacker pivot(Z-Psychic/Electric + Volt Switch), even scarf can function but lacks a little force and many more options it can go for.
    calcs (open)

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 387-458 (98.2 - 116.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 291-343 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 676-798 (115.1 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 290-343 (95.3 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 321-380 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 265-312 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psychic vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 220-261 (56.2 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (yea I forgot to mention how Lanturn is a weak special attacker ideal for set up bait)
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  7. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Throh -> B+ : I posted about it a fair bit and a few users have brought it up in the PS! chat and would like to bring it up here too. I think throh is one of the hardest pokemon to kill this generation, with immense bulk and the fighting resists often forced out by circle throw, paired with hazards and it's a deadly combination. The 2 main sets I see are rest-talk mono attacking bulk up, which in its own right, if you don't have something that can hit it super effectively and switch in freely, you're almost screwed if you don't have a ghost type. And the second set being the rest-talk knock off set, which is the set I have used, and is also extremely hard to kill and annoying, since you remove lefites / items, force switches again and generally is such a pain to kill, whilst also being an effective answer for ghost pokemon like haunter who can't 3hitko due to its immense bulk. Overall I would say it warrants a rise.

    I agree with:
    Stoutland -> B : it's a powerhouse, although i have yet to use it, it still is one of the best breakers (on paper) in the tier, with ways around its checks and answers.
    Sensu -> B+ : This mon has virtually no reliable answers atm, with amazing dual stabs and access to great support moves, I think B+ is justified.
    Aggron -> B : One of the best breakers in the tier with some great utility. very underrated.

    Disagree with:
    Bronzor -> B- : bronzor at the moment is way too easy to take advantage of, whilst most of the meta has something to take it on reliably and the common effectiveness of skunk, bronzor is literally a momentum drain for most teams at the moment.
    Swanna -> A- : It's very easily chipped, lanturn / guzzlord being way too common, i just think being a- rank is too high for it at the moment, i'd like to see some more replays to really see how it is, but from playing it in the past, it's very match up dependent.

    Edit:
    I also agree with a guzzlord rise to A-, but anything higher than that is too much of a rise tbh. Amazing special attacker right now, great defensive check for fires / darks and generally forces so many switches.
  8. Terrakion.

    Terrakion.

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    My mans Huntail got completely left out of the VR (wasn't even E rank) so I would like to nom it for B-. Huntail is a pretty good win-condition and in most situations would be better to use over Gorebyss. The addition to Z-Moves allows it to break through a lot of fatter Pokemon it struggled to break through if they weren't whittled down by hazards or other passive damage such has hazards or status. Huntail also has access to priority in Sucker Punch to be able to nail the Pokemon that it cannot outspeed after a Shell Smash boost. Its honestly not much to say since we're all aware of what Huntail is capable of, and for other Shell Smashers such as Gorebyss and Tutronator to be ranked (Huntail is better than both of them imo), Huntail should be up there too.

    I wish I actually kept replays showing off Huntail but me being a smart guy I never save replays so rip.
    ShuckleDeath, Aaronboyer and GenZeon like this.
  9. Kill the Lights

    Kill the Lights

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    [​IMG] Guzzlord B > A- or A: This thing switches into so many mons and threatens to KO either what it's switched into or what switches into it. There are very few mons in the tier than can even pretend to be safe switch-ins to this, with spdef Clefairy possibly being the only one that can, but it can still be 2HKO'd by Sludge Bomb.

    [​IMG] Silvally-Steel C- > B-/B: I think Silvally-Steel is seriously underrated. It gives a fairly important immunity to poison, while resisting all the common offensive moves run by Mesprit, and it can take hits from non-HP Fire Liligant. Flash Cannon dents a good chunk of the tier and it has multiple options for coverage and then T-Wave and Toxic as options too. Parting Shot also helps it keep momentum. Parting Shot is obviously hurt by the popularity of Primeape but it feels like it should definitely be higher than it is now.

    [​IMG] Silvally-Ghost C+ > B-/B: Similar to Silvally-Steel it has a good typing that isn't abundant in the tier. The biggest benefit is its an offensive Ghost-type with the bulk to actually take hits and no SR weakness (albeit this does leave it with an aversion to Spikes and T-Spikes, so I don't feel it deserves to be tiered close to Ori-Sensu). It checks Fighting-types fairly well, except Gurdurr, which does definitely hurt its viablity but not so much I feel it falls into C+.

    [​IMG] Regirock A- > A+: Regirock is just the premier physical wall in the tier; possibly the best mixed wall in the tier. It's got the ability to set up SR multiple times a game, while being a check to Pyroar (never 2HKO'd by HP Grass, and is only really threatened by Bloom Doom, which is pretty uncommon, while being able to hit back for upwards of 90% of Pyroar's HP or paralyse with T-Wave), Charizard (if Zard sets up Sunny Day on the turn Regirock switches in, Solar Beam hits for 68.1-80.7% and Regirock KOs it cleanly in response), while probably being the best normal resist in the tier. It's also got a good offensive presence, so it's never merely setup fodder.

    [​IMG] Stoutland C+ > B: Stoutland is just a monster of a wallbreaker, with ways of beating nearly any mon that switches into it. Its bulk is also one of the biggest reasons its usable over Zangoose, since it can take attacks like Gurdurr's Mach Punch and Skuntank's Sucker Punch with ease.

    [​IMG] Vibrava Unranked > D: This might be a bit of a stretch but as a defogger Vibrava has one benefit that none of the other options have, which would be an immunity to both types of Spikes and a resistance to Stealth Rock. It can couple this with U-Turn and Roost to be able to come in and defog fairly consistently during a game while providing a slow U-Turn to team-mates. That said, it loses to just about every hazard setter in the tier, while the best it can threaten just about any mon with is Toxic. I'd understand if this isn't enough of a reason to rank it, but it's not like it has no niche whatsoever.
  10. Skankovich

    Skankovich

    Joined:
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    [​IMG] to B or something, easily as good as Cradily.

    This is the only thing that really stood out to me as a mistake on this VR, SpDef Solrock is a really cool Stealth Rock user right now that checks a bunch of common mons. Rock typing with levitate and fighting neutrality means it's one of the few reliable answers to all our Fire types (outside of Sunny Day Zard sets) but also to Kanga and non-knock Archeops along with general neutral-hitting special attackers. It has a great matchup against the majority of other rockers, burning the likes of Pilo, Golurk, Miltank, Regi etc. while also beating the physical set of our most common defogger Skunk. Unfortunately the only replays I have are like from 4 bans back, so I'll build a bit and get back with some more.

    And briefly on some other noms:

    Disagree with Bronzor rise, it checks a tonne of stuff but a rocker being a literal free switch for one of the best mons in the tier who is also a defogger and potential pursuit trapper is very lame. It's also an almost free switch for the scariest wallbreaker and also potential pursuit trapper in Faticate and another scary mon in Absol, which is really lame for more defensive teams.

    Agree with Throh rise, it's a really nice bulky set up sweeper, but I'd say to B. I've found myself often replacing Throh with Type-Null as a specially-bulky-physically-boosting mon thanks to its greater bulk, less weaknesses and more immediate power, so I feel the rankings should represent Type Null being a little better imo.

    Pallo is a neat wall, agree with rise. Even though it's a ground type it actually pairs well with common rockers thanks to its fighting immunity, making lack of rocks less of an issue.

    Togetic is really bad, should definitely drop. A fighting check that hates Knock and Ice punch, our two most common forms of fighting mon coverage right now, is bad, and then it doesn't even beat rockers as a defogger.

    Pyuku rise yeah, it's a good mon for stall so should be in the C ranks.

    Don't agree with Zangoose rise, at least not all the way up to A. It's a threatening wallbreaker, but its paper thin bulk along with toxic orb means even vs passive teams it struggles to get in, never mind that it needs either a free turn or to get in via a pivot move for Toxic Orb to activate, as before that it's not especially powerful. It's one of those mons I feel I'd be terrified of on paper but whenever I encounter it in a match it just takes a chunk out of something then dies.

    Definitely agree with Raichu rise, there's a lot of Sucker Punch in the tier right now unfortunately, but when this thing sets up the answers are few and far between with its great speed tier and coverage.
    Good J, 2xTheTap, Many and 3 others like this.
  11. Mango Smoothie

    Mango Smoothie

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    rip monferno

    I agree with Abomasnow to A- and Regirock to A. The former is incredibly hard to switch into as the only things that really want to take hits (Magmortar and Steels) get bopped by coverage like EQ and Focus Blast, and Giga Drain gives it some nice staying power. The latter, while not incredibly splashable is an amazing blanket check to most things not carrying STAB SE special moves, and it just doesn't die sometimes. Its incredibly reliable rocks setter and not really exploitable on any end of the spectrum. Not to mention it blocks Skuntank from Defogging like nobody's business, and takes on Acrobatics Archeops really well (actually any non-band archeops).

    A nom I'd like to make is Tangela from C- to C+ or B- on the merits of its offensive set. I made a post about it in the metagame thread that you can read here, my thoughts on it haven't really changed much. In short it can contribute in basically any matchup that isnt sun teams and while you can't use it alone as your physical measure like you could last gen, its by no means passive and acts as a good blanket check to most of the unboosted metagame. Even slower boosting threats like BU Gurrdur can be dealt with pretty easily. Unfortunately special attackers kind of laugh at it (its got the bulk to live nonSTAB ice beams tho) and you're opening yourself up to stuff like Zard and Pyroar if you play recklessly with it, but pairing it with something like Regirock covers almost all those bases. Its flaws are definitely less pronounced than something like Kingler or Swoobat, and it needs much less support than most anything else in the C's to function properly.

    Here is a replay in which I play kind of stupidly with Tangela , but (had I not sacked it prematurely) it would've been able to handle half of my opponent's team.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-628382193
  12. amber lamps

    amber lamps

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    Supporting the rise of Guzzlord from B to A at least, probabily one of the best specs nukes in the tier (if not the best), with great fire/poison coverage alongside its dark /dragon stabs, preventing fairies or steels to be sure switch ins and, as mentioned above, it can also switch in on a good amount of mons thanks to its respectable resistances /bulk.

    Pawniard C- to C/ C+ despite the amount of fightings it can still find its opportunities vs stuff like phys. skunk, sableye or mesprit, as well as being a decent addition to hazard stacking HOs due to defiant and nice overall offensive presence

    Pidgeot C to either C- / D honestly i dont feel like there are many arguments to justify its niche, but i can see pidgeot going mixed (archeops does it better) or somewhat resembling a bad chatot with access to z hurricane, while also being an inferior bravebird user than toucannon on the physical side, even unranking it wouldnt be a wrong option imo.

    Fearow C to C- / D holds a very poor niche in running a sniper crit abusing set. Lack of bbird makes it an overall outclassed option than toucannon except maybe you could brag that its faster, but again even scarf toucannon bbird hits harder than cb drill peck :shrug:
  13. Aldertz

    Aldertz formerly BPGXMG

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    This is gonna be short but Imo bronzor in c is just not right. It checks far too much for C. Flying and normal types are both prominent, and checking both is a huge boon. It also checks many set up sweepers, most notably Jynx and lilligant. Checking grass is gr8 in this meta. It has the immunity to ground, resistance to flying and neutrality to fighting over ferroseed. Rise to B-.
    Ludicolo also has no place in B. The Rain Dance set exploits many meta trends, most notably how many fires, rocks, grounds and waters there are. It's rather fast under the rain and has decent special bulk so revenge killing can be tough for some teams. Rise to B+.
    I agree with most of the noms here :)
    Rwby and GeneralAnnoyance like this.
  14. GyroNutz

    GyroNutz

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    Zebstrika: C -> C+

    Zebstrika on paper is just a weaker manectric, which is only B- itself. What sets Zebstrika apart that puts it above the other electric types is that its unique 116 speed tier puts it above fast threats like floatzel, archeops, lycanroc and a couple of others, and its ability. Sap sipper allows zebstrika to be an interesting check to lilligant, especially ones not carrying z move. I think it should be on par with electivire at least. However, due to a lack of power, zebstrika should go no higher than C+

    Tangela: C- -> C+

    I second this nom. 100 base special attack is nothing to laugh at, and with incredible 65/115 bulk coupled with eviolite skyrocketing its defence and boosting its weak special defence, it gets a lot of switch in opportunities to fire off stab leaf storms or cripple its would-be switch ins with sleep powder (except magmortar). Regenerator gives it good sustain, but that and leaf storm drops means that tangela will have to be switched out a lot to make best use of it. It's no godmon, but C- is way too harsh for it imo.
  15. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons ACAB
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    things i agree with:
    aboma to a-: this thing's among the top wallbreakers, extremely difficult to switch into due to fantastic dual stab, only becomes more problematic due to its ability to either go mixed or physical with SD. definitely deserves to be in the a ranks.
    guzzlord to a-/a: this thing's way too low right now. its gargantuan bulk plus great dual stab make it an excellent gluemon that doesn't forfeit offensive momentum, checking the likes of lilligant, charizard, pyroar, lanturn, raichu-a etc etc etc. i find myself really liking its set of resistances plus its firepower (serious lack of common dragon resists right now) and it finds a place on teams often enough to warrant a spot in the a ranks imo.
    articuno to b or whatever: i still hold that this thing has been broken in pu in the old gens and i guess now it's not anymore but it's still really underrated. we got more means of removing rocks so that means the one great bane of articuno isn't as much of a problem anymore and it's still obnoxiously hard to kill.
    gourgeist-super to a-: i love this mon, it's so bulky, still is one of the best blanket checks to physical attackers since its raw bulk isn't mediocre like sableye's and it has recovery unlike weezing, also spinblocks chan which is cool. i find myself using it a lot due to how well it synergizes with stuff like lanturn, definitely just one of the more solid defensive mons around so deserving of a- imo.
    golem rising: wouldn't say b, but b- is a nice fit. regirock is a better pick overall but golem's electric resist can come in really handy and makes it a very viable pick.
    togetic dropping: who uses this lol
    rain sweepers rising: i barely see these but theyre scary basically

    things i disagree with:
    zebstrika to c+: trash mon sorry
    solrock to b: like if u wanna put it in c+ or some shit go ahead but it's still fuckin solrock, it's a good normal check but otherwise it's pretty mediocre, looking at its matchups vs the mons in the a ranks it generally performs worse than most stealth rockers, its psychic typing hurts it a lot ultimately by making it weak to skuntank and knock off from zangoose etc

    own noms:
    mawile to b: honestly really good rocker due to the roles it compresses, provides for a good physical normal resist, dark resist, emergency dragon immunity, also checks hitmonchan which is big for a rocker, generally does a lot of good stuff. i've personally been liking sets with taunt (+ toxic) a lot, bulkier teams really struggle with it due to surprise factor + generally bulky taunt mons screw with stall etc. taunt + toxic also fucks with musharna hard so that's cool.
    lycanroc to b: cool mon but honestly not feeling it that much, it more often ends up serving as an offensive zard check (which now is rivaled by archeops) than as an actual breaker/sweeper. u dont find a lot of time to set up an sd and even when you do its lack of proper coverage hurts it too much. meh.
  16. galbia

    galbia
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Leader

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    Oricorio i agree that this mon should rise up a subrank at least. it has a decent speed tier for the scarf set and decent dual stabs to run flyinium-z and substitute very well. the latter is particularly good since it has a lot of opportunities to set up considering the amount of pokemon that are forced out so be sure to try it. the popularity of lanturn and piloswine should keep it away from the a-ranks for now but b+ is completely fair.

    Mawile is another decent mon and i support the nomination to B since it has a good set of resistances, TAUNT, and is able to set up rocks multiple times in a game due to how well it comes in against skuntank (not many are running fire blast from my experience)

    Stoutland would fit well in B/B- due to the raw power and decent bulk that lets it check most offensive pokemon that don't have fighting-type coverage moves, i dont want to repeat the points already made about it but it's decent, try it.

    Pinsir
    is decent but i don't think it's as good as the other B mons currently. I really like Stealth Rock and Lum SD sets with Mold breakers since they do well against Weezing, Qwilfish, and Mesprit tho so B- will be fine

    won't expand but i also agree with bumping up Abomasnow and Aggron
    Rwby, LordST, tenkai and 8 others like this.
  17. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons ACAB
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    My main issue with the Stoutland nom is that it faces heavy competition from Kangaskhan. Kanga is faster, bulkier, and more versatile (can run CB like Stoutland but also the great Silk Scarf set, as well as more niche stuff like a Whirlpool trapper set or a SubPunch set) and compensates for its comparatively low Attack with access to Double-Edge. Earthquake is also more reliable than Superpower, albeit weaker and unable to hit Ferroseed hard (Fire Punch fixes that if that's a big issue for you). Stoutland does have certain advantages over Kanga, I will admit, but I'm not sure if those advantages are enough to push Stoutland into the B ranks. C+ means it's still viable but largely overshadowed and I feel that's where Stoutland finds itself atm.
  18. Twix

    Twix is this a dog or a bear
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    Murkrow from Unranked to ~C Rank
    [​IMG]
    Murkrow @ Flyinium Z
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Mirror Move
    - Sucker Punch
    - Pursuit / Frustration / Facade

    Yeah so I was pretty shocked that Murkrow wasn't even put on the VR just because of how solid it is in practice. It is one of the fastest and strongest users of Brave Bird in the tier, and also has access to STAB Sucker Punch and other cool tricks. Mirror Move with Prankster gives it another form of priority, while Z Mirror Move even gives it an SD boost and allows it to clean fairly easily late-game. It's criminally underrated imo and I think it's deserving of C rank if not higher.

    replay from not open:
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-623758047
    cleans around t36
  19. Tuthur1

    Tuthur1

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    [​IMG] Togetic from B- to C+: disagree, Togetic is a cool mon able to check a lot of special attackers like Turtonator (except if comming into +2 Fire Blast), Exeggutor-Alola (even if it carries Sludge Bomb), Ludicolo under Rain (if comming into Giga / Rain Dance), Choice Specs Pyroar (ik it's not its best set), Shifrty and Lilligant. While being able to check physical threat like Primeape and Passimian locking into Earthquake / Close Combat and Absol lacking Iron Tail, Torterra lacking Stone Edge and Golurk lacking Stone Edge and Ice Punch. It's a cool defoger despite being weak to Stealth Rock because it's immune to Spikes / T-Spikes. Yeah, Togetic isn't the best Pokémon and I'm not nominating it for higher because I B- is the place of a Pokémon which can check some attackers and Sableye lacking Calm Mind while providing utility with Defog and having recovery in Roost.

    [​IMG] Crabominable from C+ to B-/B: Crabominable is the best trick room abuser thanks to a awesome dual STAB which are only resisted by Qwilfish, Grumpig (which is rare) and some NFE like Frislish (that no-one use). Basically bar physically defensive Qwilfish there is nothing that isn't 2HKO by Crabominable. Even if you try 50/50 to stall out Trick Room your Pokémon will take a ton. You can also try to Intimidate it with Granbull or Qwilfish but Crabominable can carry PuP to negates the attack drop and then forces Qwilfish / Granbull out. PuP is also a good move which allows you to revenge kill Pokémon that have been weakened by Carbink's / Gourgeist's Explosion.
    I also think Crabominable needs to rise because Trick Room is super strong in this metagame thanks to good abuser in Crabominable, Ursaring and Mudsdale, good setters in Exeggutor-Alola, Musharna, Mesprit, Carbink, Audino, Dusknoir and Gourgeist.
    Some calcs proving Crabominable is strong (open)

    Granbull: -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 165-195 (43 - 50.9%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Qwilfish: -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Crabominable Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Qwilfish: 239-283 (71.7 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 181-214 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
    Musharna: 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 227-269 (52.4 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Mesprit: 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Crabominable Ice Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 273-321 (90.6 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    [​IMG] Simisage from D to C+: Simisage is a solid Choice Scarf user thanks to its wide coverage. It has Leaf Storm for Carracosta, Archeops and Golurk, Rock Slide for Charizard, Jynx and Masquerain, Gunk Shot for Lilligant and Ludicolo, Knock Off for Raichu-Alola, Jynx and Haunter. Simisage has also its disavantages: lacking bulk for taking priority like Absol/Faticate Sucker Punch, Rock Slide is rather weak and doesn't kill Z-Celebrate Zard without Rocks and Turtonator at -1, and 101 speed means it doesn't outspeed Timid Ludicolo and Adamant Kabutops. But I think C+ is the rank for a Pokémon which is able to revenge kill a lot of offensive threats.
    calcs (open)

    Carracosta: 4 SpA Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 657-774 (227.3 - 267.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Archeops: 4 SpA Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Archeops: 219-258 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Golurk: 4 SpA Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 332-392 (103.7 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Charizard: 252 Atk Simisage Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 332-392 (111.7 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO ; 252 Atk Simisage Rock Slide vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 224-264 (75.4 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Z-Celebrate Charizard needs some cheaps)
    Jynx: 252 Atk Simisage Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 300-354 (110.7 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO;
    252 Atk Simisage Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 260-306 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Masquerain: 252 Atk Simisage Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 400-472 (142.3 - 167.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Lilligant: 252 Atk Simisage Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 272-322 (96.7 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Ludicolo: 252 Atk Simisage Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Raichu-Alola: 252 Atk Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO; 252 Atk Simisage Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (need some cheaps if the Raichu-Alola is holding a Z-stone).
    Haunter: 252 Atk Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 326-384 (141.1 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Some other threats like Magmortar, Oricorio-Sensu, Aggron and non-Eviolite Combusken dies after cheap damages.


    I also agree with Abomasnow to A-, Oricorio-Sensu to B+, Swanna to B+, Pyukumuku to higher, Pawniard to C+, Pidgeot to D, Fearow to Unranked, Silvally-Ghost to B-, Tangela to C+ or higher, Regirock to A, Bronzor to C+/B-, Ludicolo to B+, Articuno to B, Murkrow to C and Huntail to C.
    I also disagree with Kabutops to A-, Stoutland to B, Bronzor to B, Solrock to B, Raichu-Alola to A-, Zebstrika to C+ and Mawile to B.
    Lakeredman, Twix and MaahirMomtaz12 like this.
  20. Rwby

    Rwby :3c :3c :3c :3c :3c :3c :3c :3c :3c :3c
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    734
    Charizard from A+ to S rank
    [​IMG]

    This is, in mine and many people's honest opinion, the strongest and most threatening mon in the tier, with each of its varied sets able to defeat another ones checks. It has an above average speed tier with access to a varied movepool and decent offensive stats; it also has decent defensive stats to boot. In terms of a teambuilding perspective it's actually a rather restricting mon that forces you to build in a certain way or you'll quite literally lose to it at matchup; that's half the reason I run defensive pivots like Munchlax and Regirock. Even though sets like Dragon Dance, Choice Specs, Bulky Swords Dance and Life Orb are all good sets in there own right, the most threatening sets are by far the Z-Celebrate (or Z-Hold Hands if you want to use Blaze) and Z-Sunny Day sets which wall-break with incredible efficiency. I personally believe the Z-Celebrate set is the strongest one, because at +1 in every stat it's almost impossible to actually revenge and with +1 offensive stats and Roost it's able to punch holes whilst remaining healthy throughout. Z-Sunny Day has a similar wall breaking ability, but is by far the easier set to wear down; even if it does hit harder with Fire Blast and is able to break both Lanturn and Gastrodon easier in comparison. Even though these sets really only get one shot to sweep it really doesn't matter considering how efficient they are at it, and even if they fail to sweep they generally break most teams enough for the rest of your team to win. In conclusion, this mon is busted af boop.
  21. GenZeon

    GenZeon

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    99
    Some short thoughts on mons I believe are underrated in the current meta

    [​IMG]
    Charizard: A+ to S

    I don't think I have to explain why this is the single most threatening mon in the tier right now. It can run a huge variety of totally viable sets which makes it completely unpredictable. Imagine you guess it's Specs or Z Happy Hour, want to switch your Lanturn in and it suddenly clicks SD/DD. This thing on it's own can turn a sheer unwinable battle around. BAN THIS BROKEN PIECE OF S*** I wouldn't be surprised by an upcoming suspect test.

    [​IMG]
    Gurdurr: A to A+

    Underrated setup sweeper in my opinion. With it's unique Fighting/Dark coverage most teams only have 1 or 2 mons to handle this monster. With one bulk up it basically can't be killed by any physical attacker in the tier bar Granbull. Common defensive mons like Sableye, Weezing (without Haze) or Qwilfish are just setupfodder. Toxic spikes on pretty much every second team are also great for it.

    [​IMG]
    Lilligant: A to A+

    By far my favorite sweeper in the tier. This thing gets so many setup opportunities through out a game or even creates opportunities on it's own with sleep powder. +1 Breakneck Blitz kills basically every Giga Drain resist in the tier bar maybe Guzzlord or AV Magmortar. With Syther gone in the last shift the only thing I'm afraid of while being at +1 is scarfed Primeape (which doesn't even ohko) and scarfed Pyroar. I can give you hundrets of replays where this mon sweeps, but here are some from the recent tour.

    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-625252796 (round 2 against Grunkulous)
    Lilli comes in against Cradily, sets up and sweeps (Turn 20+)
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-625261828 (round 2 against Grunkulous)
    I get rid of the 2 mons which can stop Lilli and proceed to sweep (Turn 26+)
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-633999400 (round 5 against Twix)
    Lilli comes in on a choice locked mon, sets up and brings my team in a good position for the rest of the match (Turn 20)
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-634003375 (round 5 against Twix)
    Lilli comes in on expected spikes and just goes ham (Turn 4+)

    [​IMG]
    Primeape: A- to A

    Arguably the best scarfer right now. Probably the best lead in the tier too. Can always get an U-Turn of for momentum, can EQ lead Qwil for a 2hko or CC rockers like Regi or Pilo. Also the ability to outspeed +1 Lilli and scarfed Oricorios is neat. If you get the switch into a Defog right, you can single handedly sweep an entire team.
    Also Stone Edge bops Zard

    [​IMG]
    Regirock: A- to A/A+

    This mon is on exactly 80,9% of my teams lol. This monster eats hits for weeks days and you will always get rocks up due to it's amazing bulk. I also love to run protect on this thing to scout for U-Turn on Primeape/Passimian or to see in which move a mon will lock itself. It's also the best Zard answer and it can always switch reliably into Skuntank. It's offensive presence is also not too shabby.

    [​IMG]
    Guzzlord: B to A

    B is just a punch in the guts for this mon. Specs Draco/Dark Pulse has literally zero switch-ins. While ohkoing 70% of the tier only few mons can reliably take two. With smart doubles this thing can destroy an entire core on it's own. Fire Blast is cool for Ferro and Sludge Wave for fairies.

    [​IMG]
    Stoutland: C+ to B

    How the mighty has fallen. Last gen it was a solid Top 5 mon while now being overlooked by most people. But I still believe this is the best banded mon in PU. A lot of people believe that Kanga entirely eclipses Stout, but this is not true. In my opinion Kanga is a very versatile mon which can stall out fast mons on T-Spikes with Fake Out and Sucker, but can also deal out heavy damage with Double Edge. On the other hand Stout is the better banded mon. With doubles or slow Volt Switches/U-Turn it can come in for free and 2hko something. Also it's a cool status absorber because of Facade.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 229-271 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 289-342 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    ridiculous.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  22. Megazard

    Megazard I'll show you the life of the mind!
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    BSS Tour Champion

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    4,471
    On the Charizard to S thing- absolutely but only if it isn't banned so I would save your time if you're planning to post to support that. Anyway here's a bunch of stuff I don't wanna write a lot about.
    Piloswine A+ to A: Yeah it's really good, annoying and strong, but it isn't exactly exceptional or anything. I just kinda wish it could do a little more. Also I tend to never use it unless I want it for rocks so competing with like every other setter
    Jynx A to A+: This is a terrifying sweeper. This is better than Lilligant. Z-kiss just runs through teams. Oh and scarf is also pretty solid and sash is actually pretty annoying. Bust mostly because Z-kiss is just so damn scary
    Qwilfish A to A+: Ridiculously good at everything it does. Try some more offensive sets too people, they're also scary. Spikes have never been so good or reliable.
    Alolan Eggy A- to A: OTR has like no checks it's just kinda stupid. Specs is always solid, plus the threat of OTR makes it weirder to play around than guzz or drampa
    Primeape A- to A: it's on like every team and is always good lol

    Interlude for other people's noms: Abomasnow to A- is good fsr. I'm not entirely sold on bumping lilligant or regirock but not entirely against. guzzlord id rather stopped at B+ because people are really overrating this, but a- isn't too unreasonable. If you think Zangoose should be anywhere near here, no. Sensu to B+ is yes. Togetic should go to like C or somth. Stoutland is fine in B next to Zangoose, idk about Gourg-XL rising though. Maybe in a post-zard meta. Clefairy, Golem, and Cuno can go up but maybe not quite so much for the latter two, more competition than I see acknowledged. I like Palossand up, but Pawniard sucks. We're nuking Pidge and Fearow fsr, but that doesn't mean Swanna should go up when it's still just slightly too frail/weak/lanturn bopped. Solrock aint rising quite that high, and ranking Vibrava/Murkrow/Huntail/Grumpig is going to happen. Tangela and Zebstrika ought to go up, dont drop Pinsir tho :c ppl just keep coming up with new ways to use it well. Ok back to my stuff

    Turtonator B- to C+: this just has lots of competition from costa, zard, whatever. Can barely see fit to use it on a non-screens team
    Manectric B- to C+: Wow this thing is lame. Has anyone tried it? I've been using more Zebstrika tbh, it might be really weak in this meta but beating out Archeops is too big to pass up. Raichu-A also gives it a huge run for its money. I'm just not that desperate for an Electric immunity in this meta
    Eelektross C+ to B-: This is an actually good electric type. AV is surprisingly good at checking things despite not quite having the longevity you'd want, its coverage is quite annoying to deal with without some kind of blanket check, I've seen people messing with its expansive movepool with stuff like Superpower and Acid Spray, and it actually annoys Archeops quite a bit how about that
    Altaria and Arbok C+ to C: I don't know why they're this high but they aren't good.
    Kingler and Relicanth C- to D: Don't quite want to unrank yet but why am I using these again?
    Gogoat, Oricorio-Baile, Monferno, Dusknoir, Gumshoos D to unranked: yeah I just don't know what they do and while they might not have a ton of testing they seem super bad, nobody's using, and we can always add them back later. Not monkey though. Rip monkey

    e: the below post reminded me, I think Granbull should actually drop from B+ to B, it's really suffering a lot in the Weezing/Qwilfish meta and it's just way harder to find a place for it on teams imo
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  23. tenkai

    tenkai

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Messages:
    47
    gonna throw my support in for alolan eggy to go to a, I've been using specs a lot in particular lately and its fantastic. big thing it has over other specs dragons aside from the threat of trick room is that it's secondary stab in leaf storm is just as strong as draco, which in practice means that it requires little prediction because even resists take a solid chunk from either stab, aside from like ferroseed which gets hit by flamethrower anyway

    also i think granbull could probably go to a-, lack of recovery outside of lefties or z heal bell sucks, but its a really nice blanket physical check thats splashable and pretty consistently checks shiftry, hitmonchan, archeops, etc, and its actually got a surprising level of versatility between lefties, z heal bell, the super underrated banded, even spdef bulk up if you wanna go that route. no healing is annoying and tbf it gets overwhelmed easily by the bunch of good special attackers we have so honestly if people disagree with this i get it, but its splashable and is very rarely deadweight so

    also pyroar should go up but i get the feeling that wouldnt be well recieved rn, so i'll make that nom later when/if zard gets banned
  24. Specs Jigglypuff

    Specs Jigglypuff

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Messages:
    56
    Really good VR. Agree with most of it, but figured I would give my take on some of the mons listed and make a case for where they should be (imo).

    [​IMG]Jumpluff C to C+ Great speed tier, sub leech seed can be really obnoxious, and sleep is great in the meta rn. Overall I think it deserves to be a bit higher.
    [​IMG]Swanna B to B+ Not sure why it ranked so low on this tbh. Relaible fighting check outside of scarf Primeape, decent speed tier for what it wants to do, hits pretty hard with LO/Z Hurricane. This mon does a great job at what it does.
    [​IMG] Togedemaru B to B- I can maybe see why it could be this high, but it's susceptible to so much. Fightings like Hitmonchan and Primeape, bulky grounds like Golurk and Piloswine, doesn't hit as hard as it would like to, coverage is lacking. It's not an awful mon but idt its B worthy right now.
  25. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    504
    image.jpg
    Drampa: B- ---> B, really anything higher than B- lol

    What? Personal bias? Pfft, nonsense! Jokes aside, I do think Dramps could use a promotion. Compared to other special attackers in the tier, it lacks quite a bit in bulk and speed, and it has to directly compete with Guzzlord and Alolan Exeggutor as a special attacking Dragon. But when it comes to sheer brute force and versatility, it's second to none. Besides the obvious 135 Special Attack which beats even Latios and Kyurem-Black in OU, Drampa has coverage up the wazoo: Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Hurricane, Energy Ball, you name it, the wiseman of PU has probably got it. It also has some very good status/support moves, particularly Calm Mind and Roost. As you might imagine, it has potential to run quite a few different sets, distinguishing it from the linearity of even some A rank threats. My personal favorites are Defensive Calm Mind, Calm Mind + Z-move, Choice Specs and Life Orb and Choice Band. In short, Drampa has some crippling flaws, such as a middling speed tier and a pretty bad defensive typing, but it can somewhat make up for it with it's immense power and fairly high versatility for PU standards.

    image.jpg
    Gurdurr: A ---> A+

    I cannot stress enough how few teams sufficiently prepare for this guy. It absolutely rips balance apart, with the only counters being Weezing, who can't Will-O-Wisp it for fear of triggering Guts, and Granbull. Guts also discourages Toxic stall to an extent. Gurdurr has commendable bulk with Eviolite: Coupled with Bulk Up, the chances of a physical attacker getting past Gurdurr are slim. It's Special Defense isn't half bad either, allowing it to easily take some special attacks from stuff like Lanturn and Shiftry. Being worn down over the course of the match isn't an issue in the slightest due to a handy Stealth Rock resistance and Drain Punch. Speaking of which, Gurdurr really only needs three moves to flatten everything in it's path: Drain Punch and Knock Off form a STAB combo only resisted by a handful of things, and Mach Punch allows it to pick off frailer/weakened Pokemon, such as Jynx, Lilligant and Lycanroc. Gurdurr is one of the premier late-game cleaners of PU, occasionally even being able to pull off sweeps (Use this guy on low ladder and watch the sparks fly). It is absolutely something you must keep in mind while team-building, as it can and will steamroll once it's checks have been disposed of. And with Charizard now gone, it's only gonna get better.
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
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