Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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you kinda contradict yourselft right there
Most highly ranked pokemon are able to work in bad match ups.

e:
there is no contradiction for making case for ho-oh to be in C+ because of it has many bad match ups and bugceus moving up to somewhere in C with the similar situation.
 
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Yeah, but the difference is that Mega Latias, as said before, can easily act as a Psyspam check and as a Primal Kyogre Check, which neither of Arceus ground/water or Mega Mence can do. Also, yes, it does cost a Mega slot, but this is also partly why it isn't ranked higher than the mons you cited.
It's an extremely shaky Pogre check at best. Considering MLatias's niche is a bulky Defogger, it's absolutely hopeless against Modest CM Pogre, and you'd have to run so much SpDef to avoid the 2HKO from an unboosted Ice Beam without rocks up. If rocks happen to be up, even max/max MLatias has a 70% chance to be 2HKOd by Ice Beam. Grass Knot fails to 2HKO back when uninvested, meaning even if MLatias comes in on an Origin Pulse, Pogre can just keep clicking Ice Beam until it drops. It's even worse if Pogre CM'd on MLatias's switchin.

MLatias can only really check defensive Pogre and even then, it has to run some special bulk to prevent the 2HKO from Ice Beam after rocks.

4 SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 56+ SpD Latias-Mega: 134-158 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

If anything, as some have stated already, if it's ever ranked, MLatias should be judged on its ability as a bulky defogger that can switch in relatively safely to Pdon, similar to how Mega Salamence and Giratina-O manage to accomplish that.
 
You guys who are ragging on latias for not "checking" pogre needs to learn the definitions and distinction between counter and check.

No shit, latias isn't a counter but it is unquestionably a check.
 
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You guys who are ragging on latias for not "checking" pogre needs to learn the definitions and distinction between counter and check.

No shit, latias isn't a counter but it is unquestionably a check.
It doesnt check either, even as a revenge killer, much less as a GSI or SSI check. it can somewhat dissuade thunder and take out weakened pogre/physdef ogre, but:
0 SpA Latias-Mega Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 154-182 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I've been playing with Mega Latias lately and I think its biggest strength lies in being an amazing pivot switch-in for Pdon and Groundceus. I love how the Toxic, Ice Beam set checks every ground type in the tier that isn't Dragon Claw Pdon.
 
why everyone ignores Aerodactl M, its fast and a bit bulky to set up Stealth Rocks, also have taunt to prevent defog, access to Rock Tomb / Offensive moveset, I wouldn't consider it a meme
 
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the difference between deo-s and aero-m is the offensive pressure guys, while Deo-S is weak to common magic bouncers users and gengar mega, aerodactyl is not thanks to coverage moves [Earthquake + Stone Edge/ Rock Tomb], if using deo-s ur forced to run psycho boost / skill swap, for me its a nice way to set up SR on a metagame where offense and balance are the most common stuff played, give it a try before.
And NO, im Not memeing.
 
m aero is decent and i think that defog maero is also a noteworthy niche to beat sticky teams reliably with offense. also, it's important to understand that maero will never solo break smart sableye teams. revenge killing marsh without scarf is also very valuable for offense. i'd send aero somewhere above ho-oh in C+.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
i'd send aero somewhere above ho-oh in C+.
I dont think Ho-Oh is THAT bad like you think. Ho-Oh can fullfill alot of roles, from offensive, choice band, bulky, it can do alot of things. and I dont see it near anywhere around C+. Ho-Oh has amazing bulk especially on the spdef side. It has also multiple ways of recovery, leftovers, roost, regenerator. they are all in Ho-Ohs amazing favour of longetivity. So I think at least A is more than justified, it should stay A+ in my opinion as it is good in every role it should fullfill on a well build team.
To show of the amazing bulk which Ho-Oh brings:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 350-414 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also Mega Aerodactyl might be faster and a good Taunter of the huge speed tier it has, but imho Mega Aero gets checked by bulky offensive pressure. As the defenses are not the highest. The main role imho what Mega Aero can fullfill is mostly suicide lead taunt, rocks setter, thats all! tbh.

I see Mega Aerodactyl as a suicide lead at uber more on D / C- but not on C+ in an Instant and definetly not above Ho-Oh, as i stated Ho-Oh should stay on A+.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
But i Still don't see a Pokemon like Ho-Oh underneath a Pokemon like Mega Aero which isn't even unranked. I donnot see, why Ho-Oh should drop that low. and even if it drops, it should def drop to A but not C+.
 
I like how you assume that Sr won't be up and that ho-oh will be completely unscathed when it uses brave bird a lot.
yeah, but you know what ? This is why Ho-Oh is nearly always played on balanced, where a mon with defog, who can remove the stealth rocks from the field, is used. Also, Ho-Oh's ability, regenerator, helps to cancel the recoil damages it takes with Brave Bird. I could clearly understand a nomination for Ho-Oh to drop, but please, use real arguments next time, and explain what has changed for him to drop, not things that were already taken in consideration when it was initially ranked.
 
See my earlier post re goth influencing Sr meta to the point where no viable ho-oh team can outplay Sr techs.
ho-oh is ridiculously rocks weak and have absolutely terrible match ups vs bulky goth balances that dominates the metagame right now. goth basically removes all of the possible defoggers outside of darkceus/ghostceus/gira-o/a. the remaining defoggers are extremely weak to marsh/yveltal meta. In short, ho-oh's viability is directly correlated with defog capability of other pokemon. the defog capability is simply too low for ho-oh to justify any team slot outside of few niche teams that it can work on. ho-oh appears great on paper when you don't factor in metagame trends for hazards. ho-oh rating has been inflated for 3 years straight anyways.
OK, so then, right of the bat, what you are saying about bulky goth balances, which are supposingly "dominating the metagame", can't be considered: if you take snake draft, only four games out of 15 were featuring goth, and even then, out of these 4 games, the goth player only had a 50% win rate (whereas Ho-Oh build were able to win the 2 games where they appeared).
Then, in your post, you are only talking about 1 bad match-up: the one versus goth. And while it is true that goth give Ho-Oh trouble because of its ability to remove defogger, Ho-Oh is great versus a large amount of other playstyles, such as offense (where is it, after rocks are being removed, able to check a large number of threats with its defensive set, namely, M-Lucario, Marshadow if not rock tomb, Deoxys-A ( Who can't OHko it with Psycho-boost and a modest nature under the psychic terrain, while the bird can immediately switch out and regain its health), M-Gengar, or also Yveltal), balanced and stall (where is it able to punch huge holes into the opposing team thanks to the choice band).
In conclusion, while it is true that the rise of Goth does dent Ho-Oh's viability, it still does not mean at all that Ho-Oh is as good as mons like Solgaleo, which is outclassed in nearly every way by Magearna as a bulky pivot, and by Mega-Scizor as a sweeper, or Dugtrio, which only works against weakened Primal Groudon and Magearna
 
OK, so then, right of the bat, what you are saying about bulky goth balances, which are supposingly "dominating the metagame", can't be considered: if you take snake draft, only four games out of 15 were featuring goth, and even then, out of these 4 games, the goth player only had a 50% win rate (whereas Ho-Oh build were able to win the 2 games where they appeared).
when you think win/loss rating over 4 games for goth and 2 games for ho-oh is an accurate estimation (:
 

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Can someone elaborate on Mega Lucarios current rank? I know the obvious stuff it does but why is it as a high as it is in A above balance staples like celesteela, arc fairy, and arc water and in the bracket as zyg-c, pogre and yveltal mons i feel overall bring more to the table? It seems to fit only one type of build (offense) to me and I think can be inconsistent with overreliance on iron tail hitting to break certain mons and coverage in breaking stuff like defensive hooh. Idk the threat level doesnt seem to be that high.
 

mags

Banned deucer.
orch might be overreacting but he he is somewhat right when it comes to hooh being a lot less viable when sr is up and I think every team is running a sr setter that will eventually get sr up and outlast any defogger. If you watch some recent tour games sr is up pretty much for most of the battle. Usage for stall has gone down which makes hooh slightly less valuable but keep in mind every balance team needs something to deal with stall so stall usage dropping doesn't exactly make it worse. It's like in oras during that period where ppl spammed stall (even tho stall sucked) because a ton of ppl brought balance or offense that had very little offensive synergy. I have no opinion on moving hooh since I don't care that much but maybe ppl should look at all perspectives rather than going off the paper all the time. Hooh has been a god when sr is off for every gen but every gen the meta will always adapt just to make sure the sr setter beats all relevant defoggers/spinners etc so maybe u gotta assume sr is on the field for at least 50% of the time when taking into account hoohs viability. In reality sr is up more than 50% too soooo
 
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Some posters seem to be forgetting this^.
Anyways just to avoid making this a 1 liner, i fully agree with Ho-Oh dropping Orch made some fair points however i think C+ is too far down. I suppose it dropping to A- is a good start.
 
agree that ho oh is pretty garbage as it doesnt check xern anymore and there are way better punishes to support arc. you dont even get anything off a free turn from ho oh anymore vs balance cuz of big boss and stall has potentially zygs/tars/giras/regen pexes. the only way this mon ever does any work is vs people that purposely leave themselves weak to it bc they know its ass for the most part. though i guess it does have a defensive niche in checking the inferior mixed pdon set (rp) but who uses rp when you can use chinese pdon. its a dead mon in so many matchups.
 
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I would argue that if you really need hazard removal, as in Ho-Oh's case, you can do it. Mons like Giratina-O exist.
 
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