Arceus forme can't hold a plate and a Z-Crystal.
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Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)
- Thread starter Nayrz
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They also change type with the Z crystals now.
Nominating regular non-primal Kyogre from D to B/B-
I have been using scarfed Kyogre on my balance/semi stall team a lot lately and it has been working out great. I was surprised when I saw it was ranked this low on the VR thread. People always say that regular Kyogre sucks because you can't spam water spout if the opponent has a Primal Groudon (and everyone does), which is correct. The thing is, you shouldn't reveal your kyogre unless the opposing Primal Groudon and other scarf Kyogre checks are dead.
Another flaw with Kyogre is that it can't switch in to SR without its main stab attack being weakened, which is also correct, but it's not that big of a deal. If Kyogre switches into stealth rocks once its water spout becomes 131 base power. After two switches it will become 112 base power, which is still ridiculously strong in rain coming off of a 438 special attack. Plus you don't want to switch your Kyogre in multiple times anyway, because if your opponent sees your Kyogre is not primal the surprise element is gone.
On the topic of surprise elements: Nobody expects a scarf Kyogre in a metagame with Primal Groudon everywhere, so it can clutch a lot of games as a late game sweeper, seeing as people don't expect it to be scarfed. Because of this surprise factor and the raw power of a rain boosted water spout I think Kyogre is on the same power level as, for example, Darkrai, Arceus-ice and Tyranitar in the current metagame, which are all placed in B.
It also got a little better with sun/moon, because of the soul dew nerf two Kyogre checks have left the meta.
Here are some calcs for scarfed kyogre: (can't do 131 BP because of the calculator not allowing 87.5% hp)
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (132 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence in Rain: 237-279 (60.3 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (132 BP) vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Rain: 402-474 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (132 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Dialga in Rain: 197-232 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (132 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete in Rain: 409-483 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (132 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y in Rain: 337-397 (95.4 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water in Rain: 191-225 (43 - 50.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo in Rain: 234-276 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
As you can see, you can't really switch into kyogre reliably without sacking a mon, because pretty much everything in the metagame is 2HKO'ed. The only mons that can reliably switch into Kyogre are Giratina, Primal don and Palkia. If some of its semi-checks, like Mega mence and Dialga are weakened kyogre can easily sweep.
Here are some replays of Kyogre clutching the game for me:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-528483373
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-528001330
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-529584363
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Above Primal Kyogre? Are you guys serious? That thing is completely walled by the most common Pokemon in the metagame. Scarf Kyogre was a thing back in XY, but it's been a n unreliable gimmick at best since then. And Duggy trapping and taking out PDon? Not going to happen.
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 313-369 (150.4 - 177.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Without Focus Sash you can't switch Dugtrio in, and with a Focus Sash you can't get close to a OHKO.
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
And that of course is assuming Groudon doesn't click Lava Plume and burn your Dugtrio on the switch in, killing it in one shot. Or Rock Polish, and begin to demolish your team.
TL;DR - don't use Scarf Kyogre, in a metagame with Primal Groudon on almost every team it's not a good set.
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 313-369 (150.4 - 177.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Without Focus Sash you can't switch Dugtrio in, and with a Focus Sash you can't get close to a OHKO.
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
And that of course is assuming Groudon doesn't click Lava Plume and burn your Dugtrio on the switch in, killing it in one shot. Or Rock Polish, and begin to demolish your team.
TL;DR - don't use Scarf Kyogre, in a metagame with Primal Groudon on almost every team it's not a good set.
Just FYI, Tectonic Rage Dugtrio does actually get very close to OHKOing PDon, you have to use the Z-Move calculator.
252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Groudon: 324-384 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still can't switch in, and if Groudon uses Rock Polish you're toast. Regular Kyogre is exactly where it belongs. Scarf Kyogre needs too much support.
I never said it was better than primal kyogre. I just said that it should be moved up because its niche is being an unexpected late game sweeper, it's very good at that. So it should at least move out of D, because D is really shit except for Kyogre. It's definitely on the same power level as some of the other mons in B.
Tbh I think Kyogre is higher than D, but B/B- is waaaaaaaaay too much. It's one thing to surprise your opponent with a late-game ScarfOgre (which is surprisingly effective if you can overload P Don with shit like SpecsXern) or to surprise your opponent with the amazing Z-Blizzard lure, but you're never going to get this done on a regular basis. I still think it's better than D since ScarfOgre is surprisingly hard to deal with for offense teams, especially if you've led them to believe you've got a bog-standard P Ogre that their GeoXern or Ghostceus or Mewtwo or whatever can waltz past in the late game only for you to turn them into paste with ScarfOgre once you've lured out their P Don and killed it. Against balance and stall though, it's totally useless unless you're using Z-Blizzard, in which case it's not bad vs balance but still terrible vs stall.
I still think regular Kyogre is better than shit like Reshiram and Mega Kangaskhan and especially turd Xurkitree, but I reckon that's more of a case of them being rated too high than Kyogre being too low (but should still be higher than D)
I still think regular Kyogre is better than shit like Reshiram and Mega Kangaskhan and especially turd Xurkitree, but I reckon that's more of a case of them being rated too high than Kyogre being too low (but should still be higher than D)
Kyogre should definitely ranked higher than D, i think C+/B- should be fine.
The thing is, that PDon is soo easily damaged, especially against a team with a Kyogre / Dugtrio / Xerneas Core. Its never safe switching in because of Duggy and even if it switches in, it takes damage from Rocks / Ice Beam / Moonblast. I know, that teams often have more answers for Xern than only PDon, but especially against offense their is so much pressure on PDOn, that Scarf Ogre can be really good.
As Shrang said against stall its very useless, unless you are spex (but cm pogre should be better), but against offense it can do work.
Another point is, look at the C rank. Their is shit like Arc Grass, mega kanga, Xurkitree. Kyogre is definitely better than these mons.
Also, I want to suggest to move Arceus-Flying up to C/C-.
SD with Z-FLyinium is kinda fun to use and can put some work. there aren't many flying resists in the game and you can hit them with EQ. Arc Water is KOd after rocks from +2 Z-Fly, Yveltal is OHKOd even without rocks.
It also has a nice Ground immunity, but a nasty rock weakness. I think its on the same/higher level than Arc electric/Arc grass.
The thing is, that PDon is soo easily damaged, especially against a team with a Kyogre / Dugtrio / Xerneas Core. Its never safe switching in because of Duggy and even if it switches in, it takes damage from Rocks / Ice Beam / Moonblast. I know, that teams often have more answers for Xern than only PDon, but especially against offense their is so much pressure on PDOn, that Scarf Ogre can be really good.
As Shrang said against stall its very useless, unless you are spex (but cm pogre should be better), but against offense it can do work.
Another point is, look at the C rank. Their is shit like Arc Grass, mega kanga, Xurkitree. Kyogre is definitely better than these mons.
Also, I want to suggest to move Arceus-Flying up to C/C-.
SD with Z-FLyinium is kinda fun to use and can put some work. there aren't many flying resists in the game and you can hit them with EQ. Arc Water is KOd after rocks from +2 Z-Fly, Yveltal is OHKOd even without rocks.
It also has a nice Ground immunity, but a nasty rock weakness. I think its on the same/higher level than Arc electric/Arc grass.
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I feel like Kyurem-W is deserving of a higher rank then C.
Almost for the same reason as Kyogre, this thing hits hard and puts so much pressure on offence if running scarf. There are almost no switch ins to a stab Ice Beam in Ubers. Not to mention its speed tier is a good thing to have, giving it the ability to outspeed Groudon and other base 90s.
It just doesn't seem to belong in C with mons like Mega Kanga and Reshiram.
Almost for the same reason as Kyogre, this thing hits hard and puts so much pressure on offence if running scarf. There are almost no switch ins to a stab Ice Beam in Ubers. Not to mention its speed tier is a good thing to have, giving it the ability to outspeed Groudon and other base 90s.
It just doesn't seem to belong in C with mons like Mega Kanga and Reshiram.
Metagross should be moved from Unranked to somewhere around B rank imo.
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Grass Knot / Ice punch / Hammer Arm
- Zen Headbutt / Ice punch / Hammer arm
Metagross has really nice bulk and serves as one of the best offensive checks in the game to both Xerneas, ekiller, mega mence, and deo-a. Its fantastic base 150 defense lets it easily tank hits from Lucario, Rayquaza, Muk, and almost any physical attacker in the tier. On top of this, while metagross is not as strong as lucario, it still packs enough of a punch to OHKO most of the offensive pokemon in the tier. Bullet punch allows metagross to pick off things and stop threatening sweeps from xerneas. Being immune to sticky webs pre-mega is cute too! Metagross has a lot of coverage options, though it will mostly only click mash and bullet punch throughout a game. Grass knot gives Metagross a way to always 2hko waterceus, which would otherwise be a counter. Zen headbutt gives metagross a way to hit groudon; it does about 33% to spdef pdon. Zhb is also a strong coverage move against Kyogre, Lucario, and Ho-oh, allowing Metagross to 2hko all of them. Ice punch is a usable coverage move to dispose of Zygarde, and it also makes Metagross a stronger salamence check. Hammer arm allows metagross to prevent ekiller from setting up easily, and has a chance to KO in conjunction with bullet punch. It also lets metagross hit ferrothorn and OHKO lucario, as well as any other random steels one might come across (like zong). Rock slide is usable to dispose of Ho-oh.
I feel as if metagross plays a far stronger defensive role than lucario, while also still hitting pretty powerfully. For this reason it deserves a rank at least D:!
Offensive calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 422-498 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 229-270 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 292-348 (45.9 - 54.7%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 202-238 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defensive calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Metagross-Mega: 233-275 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 147-173 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Salamence-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 272-322 (90.3 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 190-224 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 133-156 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
some replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-242074
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-246148 (ignore the crit at the end, Metagross would've won since it lives shadow force + espeed)
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Grass Knot / Ice punch / Hammer Arm
- Zen Headbutt / Ice punch / Hammer arm
Metagross has really nice bulk and serves as one of the best offensive checks in the game to both Xerneas, ekiller, mega mence, and deo-a. Its fantastic base 150 defense lets it easily tank hits from Lucario, Rayquaza, Muk, and almost any physical attacker in the tier. On top of this, while metagross is not as strong as lucario, it still packs enough of a punch to OHKO most of the offensive pokemon in the tier. Bullet punch allows metagross to pick off things and stop threatening sweeps from xerneas. Being immune to sticky webs pre-mega is cute too! Metagross has a lot of coverage options, though it will mostly only click mash and bullet punch throughout a game. Grass knot gives Metagross a way to always 2hko waterceus, which would otherwise be a counter. Zen headbutt gives metagross a way to hit groudon; it does about 33% to spdef pdon. Zhb is also a strong coverage move against Kyogre, Lucario, and Ho-oh, allowing Metagross to 2hko all of them. Ice punch is a usable coverage move to dispose of Zygarde, and it also makes Metagross a stronger salamence check. Hammer arm allows metagross to prevent ekiller from setting up easily, and has a chance to KO in conjunction with bullet punch. It also lets metagross hit ferrothorn and OHKO lucario, as well as any other random steels one might come across (like zong). Rock slide is usable to dispose of Ho-oh.
I feel as if metagross plays a far stronger defensive role than lucario, while also still hitting pretty powerfully. For this reason it deserves a rank at least D:!
Offensive calcs:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 422-498 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 229-270 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 292-348 (45.9 - 54.7%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 202-238 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defensive calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Metagross-Mega: 233-275 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 268-316 (89 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 147-173 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Salamence-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 272-322 (90.3 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 190-224 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 133-156 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
some replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-242074
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-246148 (ignore the crit at the end, Metagross would've won since it lives shadow force + espeed)
Mmm, while everything you said sounds good and all, I think Mega Metagross shouldn't rank that high. In my opinion, if an offensive mega is slower than the 3 most common megas in Ubers there is little reason to use it, especially over something like Lucario, who uses 3 coverage moves + SD and applies even more pressure than Metagross. I guess the /defensive/ side of Metagross is cool but I mean, most of the calcs you posted are rolls, I'm not sure if a pokemon is reliable enough to check something if it has to rely on a roll.
just my 2 cents.
P.S. I would most definetely fit Pursuit somewhere, trapping Lunala could be cool.
Do you actually need max Speed? What value do you get from running max Speed compared to just outrunning Timid Yveltal/Xern? Might make some of those rolls a little more friendly...
e: with 88 HP you always live +2 Xerneas HP Ground and +1 Mence EQ becomes a 6.3% roll
e: with 88 HP you always live +2 Xerneas HP Ground and +1 Mence EQ becomes a 6.3% roll
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You could run one more speed point to outpace Adamant Mega Lucario to avoid unnecessary Close Combat damage and OHKO it with Hammer Arm.
Edit: for some reason, I misread Yveltal/Xern as Solgaleo/Lunala...that earlier speed tier is just fine although Timid Yveltal/Xern isn't as common of a spread as Adamant Mega Luke.
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Timid yveltal and xerneas outspeed adamant lucario. Timid Lunala is the one who is outsped by 1 point. Freeroamer HP on it could be interesting :o I've never tried it tbh but yeah I'd opt for 330 speed (or 331 since I usually go 330 on support arceus these days, particularly darkceus)
I'm gonna repost this since it got ignored last time. I'm back at #1 on the ladder and steel arceus has been a huge contributor to my team. There is no way he belongs in C rank. I would probably put him at A rank if I was in charge but if not that he deserves at least B rank. Steel typing isn't perfect but the way I play this set He's often on the field for a lot of turns so immunity to toxic is vital so the only other option would be poison. I like steel because its defensive synergy fits better with my team. resistance to psychic lets him beat most deo-A 1v1 whereas poison would be dead to psycho boost even with a CM up and resistance to extreme speed and bullet punch stops your sweep from getting cut short. Resistance to flying lets him crush all the salamence that have stopped running EQ. Resistance to draco meteor isn't as necessary as it was a couple generations ago but it's still nice to have a pokemon who can sponge the hit if you're not running a fairy type. And all his other random resistances give him lots of opportunities to switch in at high health.
I think CM Steelceus, as an anti-stall win condition, is stronger than Darkceus and/or Xerneas, mostly because Magearna exists in this gen, and Steelceus can wear it down with little threat to itself.
Metagross: I personally like Explosion on it. My post in the sets thread explains. Essentially, it provides a very solid Xern check for HO teams which means you can be more adventurous with PDon's EVs (letting you run more Speed, or run mixed), while having the ability to Explode on Defoggers to keep your hazards down.
CM Steelceus - I really don't see the appeal of this. Steelceus is questionable as it is, and SD is superior to it IMO. Literally the only thing I can see CM doing better is that Earth Power hits Primal Groudon harder at base than EQ does. On the flip side though, you lose the ability to even remotely check Xerneas (At least physical can ignore Geomancy boosts and pump Xerneas really hard with (Z-)Iron Head if Focus Blast misses), lose to Ho-oh and Kyogre. Z-Iron Head also does a lot more to Ekiller if you win that speed-tie, while Judgement does like 40% at best.
CM Steelceus - I really don't see the appeal of this. Steelceus is questionable as it is, and SD is superior to it IMO. Literally the only thing I can see CM doing better is that Earth Power hits Primal Groudon harder at base than EQ does. On the flip side though, you lose the ability to even remotely check Xerneas (At least physical can ignore Geomancy boosts and pump Xerneas really hard with (Z-)Iron Head if Focus Blast misses), lose to Ho-oh and Kyogre. Z-Iron Head also does a lot more to Ekiller if you win that speed-tie, while Judgement does like 40% at best.
I think you need to see it in action before you can say that. CM brings a lot of things to the table. First off iron plate judgement hits 120 base power a full 50% stronger than Z-crystal iron head. The CM special defense boosts let you turn a lot of pokemon into set up fodder, yveltal, palkia, kyurem-W, mewtwo, dialga, defensive arceus ground, defensive kyogre, lunala etc.
I'm still sceptical about CM Steel Arceus. It never worked well for me last gem and I don't see how things are better now. Could you post a replay?
Ho-oh weakness is a real issue but the rest of my team deals with it well and if you can keep stealth rock on the field Ho-oh won't last too long. And I don't know what you mean by you "have to" use Giratina-O. I don't use him or any other defoggers.
I just had this battle http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-534507807 Arceus absolutely demolished that team
I just had this battle http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-534507807 Arceus absolutely demolished that team
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You probably meant to say just Iron Head here, because Z-Iron Head hits 160 BP.
Also, this applies to many other CM Arceus formes for a large majority of these cases anyway, like Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Ice, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Rock, etc. Say what you will about some of these matchups, like GhostCeus vs Yveltal or RockCeus vs POgre, but at least none of these Arceus formes get dicked over by the likes of PDon, Ho-oh, Zygarde-C, and offensive GroundCeus at once. Not to mention that unlike its fellow CM Arceus brethren, SteelCeus's STAB simply doesn't have good enough neutral coverage to warrant a slower CM boosting set and thus becomes a greater opportunity cost for your Arceus slot; SteelCeus should probably just go for the more explosive SD Z-set if it wants to attempt sweeping imo.
Instead of switching to his Primal Groudon on turn 5, he switched to his Ferrothorn and let you get 3 more Calm Minds for free, so that was more his fault than anything else. Arceus-Ice could've put in massive work against him too, especially if it has Fire Blast.
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What I meant by z-crystal iron head was iron head where your hold item is a z-crystal but you're not using the z-move.
I know other arceus forms could do similar sets but I don't think there's any other type that could fill all the roles that arceus steel does on my team. And I don't think his niche is that small either, I've been succesful on the ladder with mutliple different teams featuring him and I've never felt that he was not pulling his weight.
while ladder performance is a good baseline for reference u are vastly overselling its relation to the viability of a mon or set
ppl have peaked with all kinds of shit, it's not a valid argument to imply that peaking the showdown ubers ladder proves how good smthing is let alone to the extent ur trying to sell arceus-steel
ftr tho i do think it could be a cool mon in the meta but its nowhere near as good as ur making it out to be
ppl have peaked with all kinds of shit, it's not a valid argument to imply that peaking the showdown ubers ladder proves how good smthing is let alone to the extent ur trying to sell arceus-steel
ftr tho i do think it could be a cool mon in the meta but its nowhere near as good as ur making it out to be
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