Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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pyu

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Came back with a content that is not Shedinja so be glad.



S -> S-

I personally love using this guy, he completely shuts down all support variants such as Smeargle, and eliminate vitally important victory factor of the opposing team thanks to its broken ability Shadow Tag. But why do I suggest to demote this Ghost to S-?

In this Gen, I found it harder to utilize this Gengar. While it can trap the likes to Tapu Lele, I always had to anticipate Choice Scarf set which can be devastating if I failed to make the right prediction about mega evolving or not.

Also these are the new (or updated) threats for Mega Gengar that I find in this gen:

* Lunala (Thanks to Shadow Shield, it can take a Shadow Ball assuming Stealth Rock is not up)
* Alolan Muk
* Yvetal (Significantly more viable this Gen due to introduction of Solgaleo and Lunala)
* Zygarde-C (Retarded bulk allows it to take any 2 hits bar Icy Wind)

In addition, what hampers Mega Gengar is its pathetic bulk, which is 2HKOed by uninvested Gyro Ball from Ferrothorn and Forretress. This usually forces Gengar to press Destiny Bond (followed by Taunt) to eliminate threats, while its best niche is to get rid of an important opponent and take down something like Primals or Extreme-Ceus before it faints.

Despite this, I believe that Gengar is still worthy of staying in S tier because these flaws does not reduce its viability as a fantastic trapper with access to Destiny Bond, Taunt, Perish Song, etc. I just thought it is harder to utilize Gengar this gen due to the change of cirtumstances; nevertheless, it is still S_class Mega mon that has undeniable viability.
I can see your reasoning, but every mon above (bar Lunala) still gets trapped and dies to destiny bond. None of those threats outspeed without a scarf. Mega Gengar still does its role just as well, but that's akin to saying every mon who gets a few new things that deal with it marginally well should get dropped. Second, your scarf point has and always will be a factor, and isn't something new at all. Third, Mega gengar traps the likes of Solgaleo, has a roll to ohko xern with rocks, etc. Not to mention none of those mons gets out of destiny bond. In conclusion, M-Gengar has no real reason to drop out of the tier it is in, especially not because a few more mons can take a hit, but still die to dbond.
 
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Perhaps its my incapability to find it on the VR, but where is Hoopa-Unbound? It runs several effective sets, enough to warrant some kind of ranking IMO. It's one of few Pokemon that can run all 3 Choice items effectively, and as of recently, it has received the ability to hold Darkium-Z, which in combination with Snatch, provides +2 Speed to this otherwise low-speed-tier-crippled wall-breaker. Additionally, it can use Black Hole Eclipse at BP 160 (Dark Pulse) or BP 180 (Hyperspace Fury) if Snatch is not desired. It isn't a fantastic Pokemon that you can slap onto every team, but it has some noteworthy features that IMO deserve some sort of mention on the VR.

Hoopa-Unbound Unranked---->Somewhere
Hoopa-U, especially with Z-Snatch, is hella good. Stealing possible SDs from Lando-T, Geomancy from Xerneas, Calm Mind from Landorus-I... I could go on. But in any case, Hoopa-U, as said, can be run with any Choice item due to its versatile movepool. It also takes down Alolan Legendaries easily (Dark/Ghost moves destroy Lunala while Dark moves hurt Solgaleo, like Knock Off for removal of Scarf or Band). Of course it's defense could improve but running A-Vest lets it tank so many hits from powerful Special Attackers in the meta.

From the Z-Hypnosis Sweeper Xurkitree with +3 SpA:+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 243-286 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still lives a hit from one of the best special attackers in the meta, even though it is in OU to begin with.

From +2 Mega Mewtwo-Y: +2 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Highest SpA in the game, and yet, Hoopa-U lives.

So yeah, it may not be the BEST Ubers mon. But it has its uses especially as a special tank. And while Ho-Oh and Lugia are still better, they both can hardly live a banded Stone Edge. Hoopa, however, can.
 

ckw

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Hoopa-U, especially with Z-Snatch, is hella good. Stealing possible SDs from Lando-T, Geomancy from Xerneas, Calm Mind from Landorus-I... I could go on. But in any case, Hoopa-U, as said, can be run with any Choice item due to its versatile movepool. It also takes down Alolan Legendaries easily (Dark/Ghost moves destroy Lunala while Dark moves hurt Solgaleo, like Knock Off for removal of Scarf or Band). Of course it's defense could improve but running A-Vest lets it tank so many hits from powerful Special Attackers in the meta.

From the Z-Hypnosis Sweeper Xurkitree with +3 SpA:+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 243-286 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still lives a hit from one of the best special attackers in the meta, even though it is in OU to begin with.

From +2 Mega Mewtwo-Y: +2 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Highest SpA in the game, and yet, Hoopa-U lives.

So yeah, it may not be the BEST Ubers mon. But it has its uses especially as a special tank. And while Ho-Oh and Lugia are still better, they both can hardly live a banded Stone Edge. Hoopa, however, can.
Well, first of all, Calm Mind Lando-I isn't really a thing (Lando-I itself as a matter of fact) but i understand what you're trying to say.
You would usually use Hoopa-U for wallbreaking than a spdef tank since AV is easily outclassed by proper Spdef Walls like Ho-Oh and the likes.
The SpDef tanks in the tier for example, Ho-Oh and Toxapex are very reliable at their job and both share the common purpose of being able to wall Xerneas, one of the most threatening special attacking sweepers in the tier (Hoopa-U gets oblitherated by this) and though it might be able to take an Oblivion Wing from Yveltal, it doesn't really have anything to hit back with unlike Tyranitar as a rival Dark type mon.
I dont really see why how being able to take a banded Stone Edge makes Hoopa-U's job as a Specially Defensive tank better, as Ho-Oh isnt really meant to take a CB Stone Edge from anything. If u predict a Stone Edge/ Rock move, u better switch to ur Arceus-Ground. I'll just quote what Dominatio had previously mentioned about Hoopa-U since they are basically all the reasons why Hoopa-U should still remain Unranked.
Aside from those Pokemon that are Ubers by tiering, everything else on the rankings is there because it serves a specific niche in the metagame, not just if it has a high base Attack stat or something. For instance, Celesteela walls nearly every support Arceus formes and some SD variants as well, while Tapu Lele is able to set Psychic Terrain to support hard-hitting teammates such as Deo-A. In comparison, Hoopa-U is extremely vulnerable to any physical hit, lacks adequate support moves and the bulk to make support sets viable, and isn't helped by the growing prominence of Dark-types (it wasn't particularly good last gen either). The only type of build I could see it fitting on would be Trick Room, but that's shaky at best and would need more experimentation.
 
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Hoopa-U, especially with Z-Snatch, is hella good. Stealing possible SDs from Lando-T, Geomancy from Xerneas, Calm Mind from Landorus-I... I could go on. But in any case, Hoopa-U, as said, can be run with any Choice item due to its versatile movepool. It also takes down Alolan Legendaries easily (Dark/Ghost moves destroy Lunala while Dark moves hurt Solgaleo, like Knock Off for removal of Scarf or Band). Of course it's defense could improve but running A-Vest lets it tank so many hits from powerful Special Attackers in the meta.

From the Z-Hypnosis Sweeper Xurkitree with +3 SpA:+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 243-286 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still lives a hit from one of the best special attackers in the meta, even though it is in OU to begin with.

From +2 Mega Mewtwo-Y: +2 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Highest SpA in the game, and yet, Hoopa-U lives.

So yeah, it may not be the BEST Ubers mon. But it has its uses especially as a special tank. And while Ho-Oh and Lugia are still better, they both can hardly live a banded Stone Edge. Hoopa, however, can.
Ok first off Lando I doesn't even run calm mind, and secondly, Hoopa-U isn't even a switch in to Lando or Xern as they both knock it out. Not to mention the z move is a waste when you can use it on lunala, xerneas, etc. which are all better.

184+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 344-408 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 500-592 (166.1 - 196.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
184+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also why run av Hoopa when it functions better as a wallbreaker. Sure it can take hits but either fails to outspeed things or hit things hard. Xurkitree is literally non-existant so why is that calc even brought up and also focus blast is what is run on mmy, not aura sphere. Also non-specs fails to ohko mmy, and also it doesn't switch into +2 mmy focus blast as it gets 2hko'd.

+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa-Unbound: 188-222 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 272-324 (77 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also it gets outsped and destroyed by any physical attacker in the tier, including solgaleo, which you mentioned.

252+ Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 424-499 (116.4 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO
208+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 409-484 (112.3 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 414-487 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

tl;dr Hoopa-U does little as it gets outsped by plenty of mons and gets ohko'd or 2hko'd from every physical mon. As well as 2hko'd or 3hko'd from every special mon unless you have AV, which is a useless set because you hit way less harder which is Hoopa's primary role to begin with. The z-move is suboptimal because there are plenty of mons that can abuse the z-slot better and any mon that it can steal from (at least the one's you mentioned) can ohko it or 2hko it. Overall, I'd say keep Hoopa-U Unranked.
 
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RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Also when I joined this thread I had a thought that came to mind:

We don't rank unranked stuff by its unique niche: it has to deal with common threats (from Primal Groudon) to other many threats at least to certain degree.

Hoopa-U, I personally like it as well, but the thing is its 60 defense leave it vulnerable to much to physical attackers, as if Shedinja is vulnerable against Yvetal.

It really is. It cannot switch into anything except the likes of Blissey and Chansey.

It is sad that this legendary (or not) is unranked, but now lets put that consideration in OU tier and talk about something that has more viability and unique niches, or at least a useful gimmick.
 
I think Tapu Lele has a shot at moving up a bit through its B ranking. While they're not ranked just yet, the introduction of the Mega Mewtwos means that Psy-Spam gained two more abusers alongside Deo-A and regular LO Mewtwo, and with Psychic Terrain nullifying the ever-common priority attacks in the tier, all of the main abusers of the terrain really appreciate Lele's utility. On its own, it's also a pretty neat stallbreaker with Taunt + NM which helps it break down fatter mons for its terrain abusing teammates.
 
Sorry but I have a question (not very good with the smogon rules), Is cloyster considered uber or ru in SuMo? Or rather does it play under uber or ru format? I've seen that it's ru in tier but under format, it's just uber and battle spots single so wanna clear this out
 

ckw

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Sorry but I have a question (not very good with the smogon rules), Is cloyster considered uber or ru in SuMo? Or rather does it play under uber or ru format? I've seen that it's ru in tier but under format, it's just uber and battle spots single so wanna clear this out
It is indeed in the RU tier. You can find out if any Pokemon is usable in a tier by changing the format to that tier, have the Pokemon and its set in the TeamBuilder, and by clicking on "validate". You should get something like " Your team is valid for [Tier Name]" if its legal
 
Sorry but I have a question (not very good with the smogon rules), Is cloyster considered uber or ru in SuMo? Or rather does it play under uber or ru format? I've seen that it's ru in tier but under format, it's just uber and battle spots single so wanna clear this out
It's ranked in the RU tier by usage stats, but it is viable in Ubers as an offensive Spikes/Toxic Spikes setter with access to Rapid Spin. It's confusing I know, hope that clears things up though.

edit: rip got sniped by a few seconds lol
 
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It's ranked in the RU tier by usage stats, but it is viable in Ubers as an offensive Spikes/Toxic Spikes setter with access to Rapid Spin. It's confusing I know, hope that clears things up though.

edit: rip got sniped by a few seconds lol
In another words it can be played in other tier?
 
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In another words it can be played in other tier?
Yes. If a Pokémon is in a particular tier, it can be played in that tier as well as any other tier above it.

So since Cloyster is RU, it can be played in RU, UU, OU and Ubers. As a different example, as Tapu Lele is OU; it can be played in OU and Ubers. Hope that helps clear things up
 
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Krauersaut

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mega blaziken would actually be solidly a- in this meta as a fast fighting type w/ stupidly high attack (that can 2hko pdon, so i'm not sure what you mean by 'walled'.)

in other news, and so this post doesn't COMPLETELY lack substance, nominating giratina-a to rise from c+ to mid-low b; it's an essential crux of many v successful stall teams this gen (cough lance) thanks to its mixed bulk and dragon typing, and can be reliable with dual status or defog.
 
I haven't had much success with Solgaleo. I think it probably should go down to C+
Too many threats can come up it pretty easily, such as Giratina-O, Zygarde-C, Arceus-Water, Mega Sableye, Ho-Oh (Stone Edge could fix this, but it's very risky), Lunala, Palkia, Kyogre, and especially Primal Groudon, which is never a good thing, while it also struggles to do much back to them aside from Toxic, which Zygarde-C and Sableye don't care for.
In terms of Xerneas checks, I personally think that Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon still do a pretty good job, even with Thunder for Ho-oh since the accuracy sucks.

Too easily trapped by Mega Gengar and Dugtio also is an issue that can't be overlooked even by a little. (Dugtrio may be uncommon but still..)
Z-Splash may seem fun, but it's far too gimmicky to setup, and once you use it up, you can't switch, which makes it even more prone to being trapped or revenge killed. Plus, you're still stopped by Zygarde and Kyogre.

+3 252+ Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 294-346 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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Punchshroom

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mega blaziken would actually be solidly a- in this meta as a fast fighting type w/ stupidly high attack (that can 2hko pdon, so i'm not sure what you mean by 'walled'.)
252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 175-207 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

??

Also, wasn't Blaziken C+ while MBlaziken was D last Gen? I mean yeah, MBlaziken has the advantage of its slightly better immediate Speed this time around, which won't even matter in the long run if you run Protect, but it has Mega Lucario (aka a fast Fighting-type with stupid high Attack that can actually 2HKO PDon) to compete for the Mega slot and it'd still seem much more practical to run a LO Blaziken and live (well, die) with the additional recoil. So pardon me if I find your notion of A- MBlaziken extremely sketchy.

Edit: Krauersaut point is there still seems to be little to no reason to run MBlaziken over regular Blaziken, but we can drop this lol

Edit2: Seirle the point of the argument was Mega Blaziken's viability (over Blaziken), not Blaziken's.
 
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Krauersaut

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252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 175-207 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

??

Also, wasn't Blaziken C+ while MBlaziken was D last Gen? I mean yeah, MBlaziken has the advantage of its slightly better immediate Speed this time around, which won't even matter in the long run if you run Protect, but it has Mega Lucario (aka a fast Fighting-type with stupid high Attack that can actually 2HKO PDon) to compete for the Mega slot and it'd still seem much more practical to run a LO Blaziken and live (well, die) with the additional recoil. So pardon me if I find your notion of A- MBlaziken extremely sketchy.
"can"... not every pdon is max hp, and denting it that much for teammates is a huge boon, because what's confidently switching in to blaziken not afraid of knock off? answer: mons w/o reliable recovery

(and i believe adamant mega hjk after sr is a 2hko anyway)

it's also v versatile; u can run hp ice, sd, protect, knock off, etc

and u fail to mention that over lucario it has speed boost, which with protect would allow it to revenge fast mons and scarfers (see: lunala), or that it can run dark type coverage

all this being said; don't forget it's entirely theoretical and not the main point of my post lol
 
Let's move away from the blazikens. I disagree with Krauersaut's nomination of giratina altered from C+ to B- because its main problem is a lack of recovery besides rest. For a bulky pokemon, this means it gets worn down quickly. Losing to Xerneas is also a large problem, and Giratina altered competes with Giratina Origin due to the species clause. This is important since Giratina-Origin is one of the best Primal Groudon checks and Groudon can dent Giratina altered with Precipice Blades.
 
252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 175-207 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

??

Also, wasn't Blaziken C+ while MBlaziken was D last Gen? I mean yeah, MBlaziken has the advantage of its slightly better immediate Speed this time around, which won't even matter in the long run if you run Protect, but it has Mega Lucario (aka a fast Fighting-type with stupid high Attack that can actually 2HKO PDon) to compete for the Mega slot and it'd still seem much more practical to run a LO Blaziken and live (well, die) with the additional recoil. So pardon me if I find your notion of A- MBlaziken extremely sketchy.

Edit: Krauersaut point is there still seems to be little to no reason to run MBlaziken over regular Blaziken, but we can drop this lol
252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 180-213 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The big change between ORAS and SM is that almost every team has a dark type now because of the Lunala spam and this benefits Blaziken and Lucario.


Let's move away from the blazikens. I disagree with Krauersaut's nomination of giratina altered from C+ to B- because its main problem is a lack of recovery besides rest. For a bulky pokemon, this means it gets worn down quickly. Losing to Xerneas is also a large problem, and Giratina altered competes with Giratina Origin due to the species clause. This is important since Giratina-Origin is one of the best Primal Groudon checks and Groudon can dent Giratina altered with Precipice Blades.
Everything you said can be said about Zygarde-C and he's placed in A-.
 

Aberforth

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Comparing Gira-A, the go-to example of a mon that just sits there, with Zygarde, which is actually threatening with the sub coil set, is kinda ludicrous. Especially when u consider that Zygarde has got a way to annoy all of its checks (Glare).
 
I'd like to nominate regular Blaziken to move up to B-. Dark and steel types: which are both common, are (mostly) forced out by Blaziken, which makes it less inconsistent than something like Xurkitree, in my opinion.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-532257506

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-545850485

Perhaps not the best examples of why I feel Blaziken should be moved up, but they show that, with proper hazard support at least, a Blaziken with a swords dance boost can be difficult to deal with.

I even managed to utilise Bkaziken in a defensive way:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-546762128
 

Krauersaut

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Comparing Gira-A, the go-to example of a mon that just sits there, with Zygarde, which is actually threatening with the sub coil set, is kinda ludicrous. Especially when u consider that Zygarde has got a way to annoy all of its checks (Glare).
gira-a, unlike zygarde, can act as a pseudo check to pogre, which is all too important in association w/ the current trend of pdon-less stall teams

it's main niche over zygarde is being able to soak all kinds of mixed damage without having to drop below 50% hp, cause the only thing it's really scared of are boosted attacks and entry hazard stack, whereas a random ice coverage move ends zygarde's hopes and dreams

(and, that being said... i'm not nominating giratina-a for the same tier as zygarde, that would be stupid lol. zygarde is definitely an objectively better mon. only nominating a rise to mid b lol.)


oh and please ffs stop talking about blaziken good lord
 
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