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SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mark Three

Discussion in 'UnderUsed' started by pokeisfun, Aug 27, 2017.

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  1. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    [​IMG]

    Credits for this amazing banner go to user: monomite! Make sure to check his stuff out :)

    Welcome to the SM UU Viability Ranking Thread!

    Firstly, a shout out to eht who worked very hard and very effectively on the last thread; I will do my best to emulate and build off their work. If you were thinking of liking this post, please consider sending them a thank you message instead.

    As always, I'll be assisted a team of players with extensive knowledge of the current metagame, who will help me going through nominations made in this thread, as well as metagame shifts caused by drops and successful retests. This group consists of (in no real order):

    So where do you come in? In light of our current rankings, it's the community's duty to refine them in order to more accurately reflect the true viability of all relevant Pokemon in the UU metagame. Because our guesses will come before much meaningful experience using Pokemon will have occurred, we can't be accurate enough without your help. Post about the Pokemon that you have experience with, but try not to let your personal bias oversell any Pokemon.

    The S tier contains a select few metagame-defining Pokemon, the best of the best. The A tiers reflect on the Pokemon which are extremely effective but flawed in some aspects. The B tier is slightly more expansive, with the B+ tier representing Pokemon that are fairly common and threatening but don't quite make the cut for A-, while the B- tier represents Pokemon who fill minor, but relevant, niches. Below the B tier, the generic C tier displays the rest of the Pokemon that are usable in UU, but don't have a niche that is appreciated by most UU teams. Finally, the D rank will only include Pokemon that are tiered in UU by usage, but have no viable niche in the metagame. Furthermore, discussion on D-ranked Pokemon is NOT ALLOWED in this thread.

    S Rank
    [​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Latias
    [​IMG] Scizor

    A+ Rank
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl Mega
    [​IMG]Cobalion
    [​IMG]Manectric Mega
    [​IMG]Rotom-Wash
    [​IMG]Sharpedo Mega

    A Rank
    [​IMG]Altaria Mega
    [​IMG] Beedrill Mega
    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    [​IMG] Infernape
    [​IMG]Klefki
    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    [​IMG] Primarina
    [​IMG] Suicune

    A- Rank
    [​IMG]Amoonguss
    [​IMG]Empoleon
    [​IMG] Heracross
    [​IMG]Muk Alola
    [​IMG] Sceptile Mega
    [​IMG]Starmie
    [​IMG]Swampert
    [​IMG] Tentacruel
    [​IMG] Togekiss

    B+ Rank

    [​IMG] Aggron Mega
    [​IMG]Alomomola
    [​IMG] Blastoise Mega
    [​IMG] Doublade
    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    [​IMG] Krookodile
    [​IMG] Nidoking
    [​IMG]Nihilego
    [​IMG] Pidgeot Mega
    [​IMG] Seismitoad
    [​IMG]Sylveon
    [​IMG] Terrakion
    [​IMG] Zygarde 10%

    B Rank
    [​IMG]Absol Mega
    [​IMG]Azelf
    [​IMG]Blissey
    [​IMG]Celebi
    [​IMG] Chandelure
    [​IMG] Cofagrigus
    [​IMG]Crawdaunt
    [​IMG] Jellicent
    [​IMG] Kyurem
    [​IMG] Magneton
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG]Mandbuzz

    B- Rank
    [​IMG]Abomasnow Mega
    [​IMG]Bewear
    [​IMG] Crobat
    [​IMG] Entei
    [​IMG] Florges
    [​IMG] Haxorus
    [​IMG]Gastrodon
    [​IMG] Metagross
    [​IMG] Moltres
    [​IMG]Porygon-2
    [​IMG]Quagsire
    [​IMG] Raikou
    [​IMG]Salazzle
    [​IMG] Slowbro
    [​IMG] Snorlax
    [​IMG] Steelix Mega
    [​IMG]Toxicroak
    [​IMG]Umbreon
    [​IMG] Volcanion

    C+ Rank

    [​IMG] Darmanitan
    [​IMG]Decidueye
    [​IMG] Feraligatr
    [​IMG]Froslass
    [​IMG]Lucario
    [​IMG] Mienshao
    [​IMG]Ninetales
    [​IMG] Reuniclus
    [​IMG]Rotom-Cut
    [​IMG]Smeargle
    [​IMG] Talonflame
    [​IMG]Venomoth

    C Rank
    Barbarcle (sprite to be found ASAP)
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    [​IMG]Chesnaught
    [​IMG] Gigalith
    [​IMG]Hoopa
    [​IMG]Kabutops
    [​IMG]Nidoqueen
    [​IMG] Stoutland
    [​IMG] Tornadus
    [​IMG] Venusaur

    C- Rank
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    [​IMG]Cloyster
    [​IMG]Honchkrow
    [​IMG]Slowking
    [​IMG]Roserade
    [​IMG]Xatu

    D Rank
    [​IMG] Arcanine
    [​IMG] Forretress
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  2. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,025
    This post contains links to previous VR threads, links to all updates in this thread, and a short description on why each Pokemon in B- to S rank is in their placement.

    S Rank Descriptions
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Latias Mega
    Has the ability to sweep at a moment’s notice either through Reflect Type or Stored Power sets or purely offensive sets with coverage. Both require Calm Mind. Can also run Defog.

    [​IMG] Scizor
    The most dangerous set is offensive Swords Dance but this versatile tank can also give defensive utility with a slow U-turn and Defog in addition to immediately strong Choice Band sets.




    A+ Rank Descriptions
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl Mega
    Has two main sets, both of which can end up sweeping late game: a Hone Claws sweeper that is both fast and strong or a Pursuit and Roost set that gives up some power for more longevity and utility.

    [​IMG]Cobalion
    Most Cobalion run slight variations of the same Swords Dance plus Stealth Rock set; any item from Fightium Z to Rocky Helmet are often seen. It may forego one of Swords Dance or Stealth Rock to be a better utility Pokemon or sweeper respectively.

    [​IMG] Gliscor
    An extremely versatile Pokemon that ends up going in one of two routes - providing utility with Stealth Rock and/or U-Turn or stallbreaking with either Toxic, Taunt and/or Swords Dance. Boosting sets can also sweep.

    [​IMG]Klefki
    Klefki has one clearly defined set in the tier that gives it two roles - Spikes stacker and a counter to top threats like Weavile and Latias. Can invest in either or both defenses.

    [​IMG] Latias
    Sets herself apart from the Mega version by abusing the item to the fullest, often uses Z crystals to sweep or wallbreak. She can also support teams by Defogging or using Choice Scarf.

    [​IMG] Manectric Mega
    Has one set and one role in being a great offensive Volt Switch pivot, can really only change up Hidden Power coverage or Flamethrower for Overheat.

    [​IMG] Rotom (Wash)
    Very versatile in terms of sets, although it generally always acts as a pivot with Volt-Switch. Can be physically or specially defensive, or offensive with Choice items or Waterium Z. Defensive sets can also abuse Waterium Z.

    [​IMG]Sharpedo Mega
    Possibly the easiest to set up sweeper, Sharpedo Mega just sweeps through teams with Crunch and some coverage moves, often giving up Waterfall for Psychic Fangs.


    A Rank Descriptions
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Altaria Mega
    The most threatening sets are Dragon Dance, usually offense but sometimes defensive. Altaria Mega can also support its team by acting as a cleric and even a physical wall. Cotton Guard also helps versus some offensive counters.

    [​IMG] Beedrill Mega
    An offensive pivot with U-Turn, it can also sweep even without the rare Swords Dance because of its natural speed and power. Relying mainly on STABs, it can use the extra slots for utility like Toxic Spikes or more coverage.

    [​IMG] Hydreigon
    Usually a revenge killer and pivot with Choice Scarf and U-Turn, Hydreigon can also fill the role of wall breaker with either coverage, Taunt, or Choice Specs.

    [​IMG] Infernape
    Usually a revenge killer and with Choice Scarf, Infernape can also fill the roles of wall breaker and sweeper with boosting moves and priority.

    [​IMG] Mamoswine
    A wall breaker with access to utility in priority and Stealth Rock. Can either run fully physical sets or Freeze Dry with special attack to surprise some would be checks.

    [​IMG] Primarina
    The most threatening set is Choice Specs. However, Primarina’s good typing lets it also run more defensive sets with Rest Talk and even a mono attacking set with Work Up.

    [​IMG] Swampert
    A very useful defensive utility Pokemon, it counters a lot of threats and provides Stealth Rocks. Usually runs physical defense.


    A- Rank Descriptions
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    Known for Spore, Amoonguss is almost always seen as a defensive Pokemon that can halt many sweepers, especially as it stays healthy with Regenerator.

    [​IMG] Krookodile
    Usually a revenge killer with Choice Scarf, Krookodile can also fill the role of an offensive utility Pokemon with key typing, Stealth Rock, and Pursuit.

    [​IMG] Pidgeot Mega
    A fairly strong sweeper that always uses Hurricane, can either find success by U-turning and with Heat Wave coverage or with Work Up and Refresh to break walls. Can also run Work Up and Heat Wave.

    [​IMG] Sceptile Mega
    A fast offensive Pokemon that can sweep and sometimes revenge kills. It can use specially offensive sets or Swords Dance sets. Occasionally runs Substitute + Leech Seed.

    [​IMG]Starmie
    Usually seen as an offensive Pokemon with Analytic which sometimes runs Rapid Spin. Can also run bulkier sets which always have Rapid Spin and Natural Cure.

    [​IMG] Terrakion
    It uses the same moves to accomplish many roles, usually seen as a sweeper and wallbreaker with Rock Polish and Swords Dance. Can also revenge kill with Choice Scarf or break with Choice Band. Sometimes acts as suicide lead with Stealth Rock and Focus Sash.

    [​IMG] Togekiss
    Usually breaks stall with Nasty Plot and Heal Bell or Z Coverage. Can also focus on utility with Defog and/or Heal Bell. Sometimes acts as revenger killer or sweeper with Trick Choice Scarf.


    B+ Rank Descriptions
    Show Hide


    [​IMG] Aggron Mega
    A defensive utility Pokemon that always has Stealth Rocks and STAB, often changes up the other moves for coverage or different utility moves.

    [​IMG]Alomomola
    Keeps itself and its team healthy with Regenerator and Wish. Spreads status and sometimes paired with Magneton to use Eject Button sets.

    [​IMG] Blastoise Mega
    Specially offensive tank that beats many offensive threats one on one because of good bulk, power and coverage. Usually provides utility with Rapid Spin.

    [​IMG]Celebi
    A very versatile Pokemon that relies on its movepool to do work, often seen as a Nasty Plot sweeper with Groundium Z but can run offensive and defensive Stealth Rock sets as well. Can run Swords Dance.

    [​IMG] Doublade
    Uses its typing to counter some top threats and poses a sweeping threat with Swords Dance and Shadow Sneak.

    [​IMG] Empoleon
    Provides several utility moves like Defog and Stealth Rock, usually through specially defensive sets. It can be more offensive, especially with Shuca Berry.

    [​IMG] Hippowdon
    A strong mixed wall that provides utility. Can focus on just one defense.

    [​IMG] Heracross
    Usually seen as a top wall breaker with Swords Dance, Flame Orb, and Guts. It can also revenge kill and sweep with Choice Scarf Moxie or just use Choice Band to wall break.

    [​IMG] Nidoking
    A specially offensive attacker that can either provide Stealth Rocks or get past certain walls with coverage or Taunt.

    [​IMG] Suicune
    Sweeps in a variety of ways, usually Protect + Substitute to stall out with Pressure and gain Leftovers recovery. Also can run mono attacking sets to sweep with Calm Mind or shuffle with Roar. Can combine most of these moves as well.

    [​IMG] Tentacruel
    Usually a defensive spinner that also provides Toxic Spikes. Can also be an offensive set, usually only retaining one utility move in Rapid Spin.

    [​IMG] Volcanion
    A specially offensive tank that uses Choice Specs for power and abuses its good bulk to get in many attacks.

    [​IMG] Zygarde 10%
    A sweeper with Choice Band that spams Thousand Arrows most of the time to get strong hits off of most teams.


    B Rank Descriptions
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Abomasnow Mega
    A wallbreaker that uses its good offensive typing, coverage, and Swords Dance. Priority lets it sweep. It sometimes runs mixed or special sets.

    [​IMG] Azelf
    The most threatening set is Nasty Plot sweeper although suicide leads with Stealth Rock are more common and easier to fit on teams.

    [​IMG]Blissey
    The top special wall that usually provides one or two of Wish, Stealth Rock, or Heal Bell support.

    [​IMG] Crawdaunt
    Breaks walls either through Swords Dance or Choice Band. Can also sweep because priority.

    [​IMG] Jellicent
    Usually used to spinblock, it also has a good enough typing and bulk to counter some threats.

    [​IMG] Magneton
    While only used because trapping Scizor is important, it also can provide nice power or speed depending on Choice item.

    [​IMG] Slowbro
    A physically sturdy wall that can dish out some hits with respectable power.

    [​IMG] Steelix Mega
    Provides utility, immense physical bulk, and a useful defensive typing through its standard Stealth Rock set.

    [​IMG] Sylveon
    A balance staple that provides utility, bulk, and good typing.

    [​IMG]Venomoth
    Sweeps with Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz, Tinted Lens and Bugium Z.


    B- Rank Descriptions
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]Bewear
    Breaks walls and tanks hit with good physical bulk, especially if Fluffy is activated, and great power with Choice Band.

    [​IMG] Chandelure
    Usually tries to break walls with Choice Specs or Substitute + Calm Mind. Can also use Choice Scarf sets and even Pain Split sets.

    [​IMG] Cofagrigus
    Almost always seen as an offensive Trick Room Pokemon, it also is paired with hazards to block Rapid Spin.

    [​IMG] Crobat
    An offensive utility Pokemon that usually uses Taunt, Defog, and/or U-Turn. SOmetimes boosts its Brave Bird by Choice Band or Flyium Z.

    [​IMG]Entei
    A wallbreaker with Choice Band that can revenge or sweep with Extremespeed. Can run lure sets easily with Grass moves.

    [​IMG] Haxorus
    One of the top stall breakers, usually uses Dragon Dance and rarely Swords Dance to boost past walls.

    [​IMG] Gastrodon
    A defensive Pokemon that reliably walls moderate hits and usually beats Electric Pokemon.

    [​IMG] Kyurem
    A special attacker that gets past walls through powerful Choice Specs attacks or Pressure stall with Substitute.


    [​IMG] Mantine
    Provides Defog utility and good bulk with good typing.

    [​IMG]Mandibuzz
    Provides Defog utility and some useful attacking moves like Knock Off and Foul Play. Can invest in either or both defenses.

    [​IMG] Metagross
    Usually provides Stealth Rock support, occasionally uses Assault Vest to beat some special attackers. Can also sweep with Agility.

    [​IMG]Mienshao
    Uses Choice items to sweep or wallbreak.

    [​IMG]Nihilego
    Often used as a suicide lead. Can also pose a more offensive threat by using Choice Specs, Choice Scarf and even Acid Spray.

    [​IMG]Quagsire
    Physically defensive wall found almost exclusively on stall.

    [​IMG] Raikou
    A special sweeper that uses good speed and power and Z moves to beat some would be checks.

    [​IMG] Snorlax
    A sweeping tank that almost always uses Curse; keeps itself healthy either through Recycle + Figy berry and Gluttony or Rest.

    [​IMG] Talonflame
    Usually runs offensive sets with Z Brave Bird and Swords Dance to get as many KOs as possible.

    [​IMG]Toxicroak
    Swords Dance sets can sweep teams with priority and sometimes even wall break, especially with the Scald immunity.


    Previous Sun Moon UU VR threads:
    Link to all updates in Version 3 UU VR thread:
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
    dodmen, Renny_, Ernesto and 26 others like this.
  3. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,025
    UPDATE FOR AUGUST 8 2017 TO AUGUST 27 2017

    New Pokemon rankings

    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Abomasnow Mega --> B-

    Mega Abomasnow has two major flaws in the metagame - extremely low speed and questionable defensive typing. These flaws hold it from rising to major relevance in UU, but the large immediate power and bulk to check threats like Mega Sharpedo means it can stay comfortably in the lower Bs. Another great quality is the dearth of true counters because of it’s great mixed power and slightly above average offensive typing.


    [​IMG] Aggron Mega --> B+

    Mega Aggron’s slightly below average Special Defense is it’s main drawback. Stealth Rock and immense physical bulk are always welcome but the former is relatively easy to achieve in UU and the latter is rarely necessary except on the bulkiest teams, where Steelix Mega may be preferred for the Electric / Volt Switch immunity. Still, Aggron Mega can hardly be considered worse than Steelix Mega as it better checks Sharpedo Mega and Weavile while having a very useful ability so an equal ranking is fitting.


    [​IMG] Camerupt Mega --> C+

    Mega Camerupt was nominated to B- on the basis of its very strong power and ability to function in Trick Room. These two reasons do not warrant a place for Camerupt Mega in the Bs however because of how common checks and counters to it are - there is little point in being a special wall breaker if you cannot break Blissey and Latias reliably. Trick Room has always been very matchup based and unreliable as a playstyle. The only reason it is even in C+ is because Explosion can help it to wallbreak, although unreliably and at the expense of its life.


    [​IMG] Banette Mega --> D
    Mega Banette received no nominations and has received no significant usage by the council. More input would be welcome on this potential threat, but for now, it will be D rank.


    Rises
    Show Hide


    [​IMG]Weavile A --> A+

    Weavile’s natural speed and priority has become increasingly relevant in the metagame, being able to revenge kill most offensive threats without being locked into a Choice Scarf. While Weavile technically has many offensive checks, including Scizor, Primarina, and Infernape, essentially none are good switch ins because Knock Off’s secondary effect which gives Weavile an excellent matchup against offensive teams.

    [​IMG] Sharpedo Mega A --> A+
    Mega Sharpedo’s rise to A+ reflects a number of different trends mentioned in the nomination. Firstly, Psychic Fangs is quite useful against most Aurora Veil teams. Secondly, the dominance of offensive teams means more prey for Sharpedo Mega as it outspeeds and OHKOs most offensive Pokemon with easy Protect set up. Lastly, priority moves like Ice Shard Weavile and CB Bullet Punch Scizor do little to deter a shark attack. In addition to these trends, Sharpedo Mega has an underrated matchup against bulky teams, as it can 2HKO all bulky waters if it gets a Crunch drop and they can do little back. The only real flaw is the total lack of bulk, especially before Mega evolution.

    [​IMG] Gliscor A --> A+

    While Stealth Rock sets make a good supporting Pokemon on bulky offense and balance, its Swords Dance and Rock Polish double dance set can pose a threat to every single playstyle. Gliscor can also be a nearly peerless stalbreaker with access to Swords Dance, Poison Heal and Taunt.

    [​IMG] Infernape B+ --> A-

    Infernape has always had only slightly above average stats but a very wide movepool with high powered moves and boosting options. It’s rise comes from a surge in its Z move sets which become incredibly powerful after a boost, reliable for a single turn, and still unpredictable before set up. Additionally, Infernape benefits from Aurora Veil which is increasing in relevance by easier set up.

    [​IMG] Crawdaunt B- --> B+

    This rise is likely long overdue, as Crawdaunt has been one of the best wallbreakers, and by extension stall breakers, the tier has ever had. Its prowess has only increased with a fall in Quagsire, Chesnaught, and Tangela as they have become subpar Electric resistances with Xurkitree’s prominence. While Crawdaunt’s significantly below average bulk and reliance on priority means it cannot quite rise to top tier status, it definitely has a very strong niche.

    [​IMG] Rotom Cut B- --> B

    Similar to Infernape, Rotom Cut’s rise comes from a new surge in its Z move set, which bolsters the points already made in its nomination. With Grassium Z, Leaf Storm becomes a powerful tool able to OHKO essentially all Ground Pokemon, including Gliscor, which makes Rotom-C one of the most interesting and useful Electric types to build around when combined with Levitate. The slightly below average stats do hold Rotom Cut back however.


    [​IMG] Heracross unranked --> B+
    Heracross has newly found relevance in the metagame because of Conkeldurr’s ban, and is even better at breaking down stall because of its stronger STABs and boosting move. Flame Orb Guts has been the main set, as a direct replacement to Conkeldurr, but even with this set alone Heracross is solidly in the B ranks as an incredible stall breaker. Its mediocre speed and general averageness at everything besides breaking down bulky cores stops it from rising to the top echelons of the metagame as unlike Conkeldurr, it does not have the bulk to tank many hits nor does it have priority.

    [​IMG] Crobat to C+ --> B-

    Crobat has more relevance than before because Infiltrator is more useful with the rise of Aurora Veil and the new use of sets that add previously unusual power in Choice Band and Flynium Z. It still suffers from a Stealth Rock weakness and average stats apart from Speed, but it is becoming slightly more mainstream as a threat now.


    [​IMG]Bewear to C --> B-

    Two major competitors to Bewear have been banned, Buzzwole and Conkeldurr, and Bewear’s bulk and power with Choice Band is still extremely appreciated in being able to counter Scizor and Mega Sharpedo for example. However, in addition to low speed, slightly below special bulk, and questionable defensive typing via Fluffy, Bewear has trouble with quite a few physical moves. Notably, Fluffy does not work for moves like Weavile’s Icicle Crash, Mamoswine’s Earthquake, and all Z moves. This means Bewear will be a usable but not dominant physical tank.

    [​IMG] Cofagrigus C --> B-

    Cofagrigus is yet another Pokemon that has benefitted from a rise in a particular Z set; this time, Z Shadow Ball on offensive Trick Room sets have seen a small surge in Cofagrigus. Still, despite the good power of the set and sweeping potential, along with new partners like the slow Mega pokemon, Cofagrigus needs two turns of set up to be a sweeping threat, something hard to do with a lack of resistances. The sheer costs of using Cofagrigus and the uncertain rewards with Normal types being immune to Z Shadow Ball means it remains mediocre, but very usable.

    Drops
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Zygarde 10% to B- --> C

    All Zygarde has going for it is an easy to spam move and speed (combined with priority). Even the interesting defensive typing is wasted because of Zygarde’s significantly below average bulk and even with Choice Band, Zygarde struggles to break walls

    [​IMG]Roserade to C+ --> C-

    Roserade has the movepool and power to work effectively, but falls short on basically everything else - typing, bulk, and speed are all average or worse. Furthermore, Roserade suffers from four moveslot syndrome and not only cannot have good enough offensive coverage, but also lacks all the utility moves it wants on any given set. It is barely viable.

    [​IMG] Magneton B --> B-

    The reintroduction of Weavile and resurgence of Sharpedo Mega has made it clearer than ever that Magneton has little defensive utility. Despite being a Steel type, it is nearly OHKOed by both, making it much harder to use on offense. Magneton still has a good niche of trapping Scizor, but as a special attacker more generally Magneton has competition from Xurkitree.


    [​IMG] Absol Mega B+ --> B-

    Weavile is almost the entire reason Absol Mega is facing a moderately large drop; the reason the drop is not even further is because Absol retains a small niche with Magic Bounce, Sucker Punch, and better mixed attacking stats.


    Unranked
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Silvally

    Rarely or never used in serious competition, no real noticeable niche.

    [​IMG] Honchkrow

    Rarely or never used in serious competition, all it has is power which is not enough to keep it ranked as this is far from a special trait.

    [​IMG] Swellow

    Rarely or never used in serious competition. This is very hard to justify using over Pidgeot Mega.

    [​IMG] Flygon

    While not directly outclassed by anything, it does face too much competition as a physical attacker and too little usefulness as a Defogger and special attacker.

    [​IMG]Ribombee

    Too weak to common threats like Blissey, Scizor and Nidos to justify use. Also basically not seen in competitive play.

    [​IMG] Gastrodon

    Basically never seen in competitive play and it does not counter anything special. It also dies horribly to Xurkitree and even struggles against Suicune despite the ability.

    [​IMG]Minior

    Almost never seen in competitive play and has some big weakness to priority. Also lacks wallbreaking power and speed after a boost.


    Declined Nominations
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Raikou B+ --> A-

    Mainly declined for the reasons in this post - it faces competition from Xurkitree still and has a lot of issues with its mediocre power.

    [​IMG]Blissey B --> A-

    While it is true that Blissey lost some counters like Conkeldurr and Mega Swampert (to some extent), it still has the fundamental weakness of being passive and having slightly below average physical bulk. These were the main issues and they remain as significant as ever.

    [​IMG]Froslass B- --> C+

    Froslass remains the best offensive Spiker in the metagame as it can block most anti hazard support. Spikes offense itself is still a strong playstyle.

    [​IMG] Doublade B- --> B
    While it is true Doublade is a very strong Hawlucha counter, other trends are not in its favor - Scizor is running Knock Off more and Terrakion running Earthquake. Additionally, B- is already quite reflective of its tanking and sweeping abilities while acknowledging bad special bulk and below average initial power.

    [​IMG]Bruxish C- --> unranked
    It is still extremely strong and can punish bulky teams, while much faster than Crawdaunt and much stronger than Sharpedo Mega after a boost. It has many obvious flaws, particularly bulk, but is still on the cusp of viability.


    Discussion Points
    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Terrakion B+ --> A-

    Terrakion has seen an increase in diversity, with Earthquake, Life Orb, Stealth Rock and Focus Sash being modifying the old staple of Rockium Z double dance.

    [​IMG] Alolan Ninetales B+ --> A

    It is up for debate if Aurora Veil offense has displaced bulky offense to be the dominant playstyle, but the fact that it is up for debate in the first place speaks volumes to Aurora Veil’s extreme prominence in the tier. The only relevant user of Aurora Veil deserves more attention.

    [​IMG]Slowking B- --> C+

    Slowking has never been quite a popular Pokemon in the metagame, even compared to its NU brother Slowbro. It faces severe problems with top tier threats like Latias, Hydreigon, Scizor and Weavile.

    [​IMG] Slowbro B+ --> B

    Similar to Slowking, it faces severe problems with top tier threats. While extra physical defense in exchange for special defense is generally welcomed and reflected in the higher ranking, metagame trends are generally not in its favor.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  4. Moutemoute

    Moutemoute

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    Messages:
    128
    First

    [​IMG] from B+ to A-

    I AGREE with this rise. Terrakion is a pretty good Pokemon atm and it can pressure a lot of Pokemon with is 2 strong STAB. I also would like to talk about the SD Fightinium Z which can absolutely nuke Heavy Stall if it's played well :

    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Terrakion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    As you can see, you can ensure the 2HKO on Quagsire which mean that you can SD after and break through the other Pokemon of the team.

    [​IMG] from B+ to A

    I AGREE with a rise of this Pokemon but I DISAGREE with A rank. Tbh even if Veil Offense are extremely strong and Ninetales-A is a pillar in this type of team, I trully think that A rank is too high for it and it should be ranked A-. With a good pressure of your part, you can prevent or bother Ninetales-A to set-up the Aurora Veil.

    For Slow[Bro/King] :
    IDK to be honest. I've not played with this 2 since a long time.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
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  5. Aldertz

    Aldertz formerly BPGXMG

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    Terrakion to A- - Agree. I personally believe it should have never dropped, and I'm glad people are realizing its options. LO, EQ, Sash - all of these add to it's versatility and play around many of it's old checks/counters like Klefki and Doublade. This can break and sweep pretty well in this meta. Rise.

    Alolatales to A - I think A- or A works. AV has supplanted BO as the best offensive playstyle rn. Most other archetypes of offense find that they have a difficult time vs it. It's single-handedly behind the rise of some of the most terrifying sweepers in the meta, such as Lucha and Xurk. The support Alolatales provides warrants a rise for sure.

    I'm not really certain about Slowbro but I am all for a drop for Slowking. Looking at the S through B+ ranks rn, pretty much every special attacker has some way around it. It's also terrible as a fighting check because only Cobalion doesn't have another STAB move to break through it. In fact, I believe it deserves a drop to C, as it fails to check far too many things that it should be able to.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
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  6. eht

    eht

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    Slowbro should definitely not drop. People don't appreciate just how helpful Regen + Fighting resist coming from that phys def is. It's by far one of the most reliable Fighting checks around in that there's no real way for any Fighting-type save for Z Edge Terrak or Z X-Scissor Coba (underrated set btw) to viably bust through it. With the exception of Gliscor, most other mons people use as Fighting resists - Lati, Sylveon, Crobat - aren't really that physically bulky and have to worry about hazards, chip damage, Z-Moves, etc blowing them away, but Slowbro really dgaf about any of those things in most scenarios. It's annoyed by Dragons and Darks and Scizor a lot, yeah, but it has ways to deal with them. I've gotten a lot of use out of Colbur T-Wave to fuck up Hydreigons and Latis on the switch, as well as Eject Button for Sciz. Also its phys def is actually enough that with a Colbur or Z Stone it simply doesn't care about physical Darks, so you can 1v1 shit like Krook and Weavile or T-Wave M-Shark in a pinch. Really useful and stupidly underrated mon that's 100% B+ material.

    I think Abomasnow can rise to B. It's weak to a lot but it's really not that tough to support. It's more a mon you have to build around than build with, per se, but in exchange you get a super nasty core breaker that can be really tough to switch into. I actually really like SD HP Fire so you don't have to rely on Mag but still boost fast enough to smash AloBliss. And if you do want Mag it's got super good synergy with Alo, the best E-Button user, as well as Mag itself, so yeah it's a big cost in teamslots but they're both good mons by themselves too. I'd say its biggest setbacks building with it are being a Grass-type that can check only fat Waters (which you should run 252+ Speed for; being able to outrun Alo and 0 Speed Sciz is super useful) and not stuff like Blastoise / M-Shark / Prima (though you outspeed Daunt and Modest Prima pre Mega with max Speed) and its 4MSS but again those aren't hard to compensate for.

    Also pokeisfun I neglected to move up Alo to B in the OP of the previous thread so be sure to fix that!
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  7. Venoxio

    Venoxio

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    oh hey Xurk's gone

    Well I have a nom that'll probably be turned down but with my personal experience with this mon, I think it should rise.



    [​IMG]
    Nidoking- B+ to A-

    With Xurkitree's departure from the tier, I feel that balance and stall will see a huge resurgence, and here we have an incredible breaker of both playstyles. Nidoking's sheer power alone is eye-catching with the combination of Sheer Force and LO, and its coverage only helps matters. It can be tailor-made to beat anything it or its team cannot overcome, with King having in addition to its amazing STABs and Ice Beam (generally its mandatory moves) Superpower to kill the main special sponge of the tier, Taunt to stop stall in general, Thunderbolt to round out its neutral coverage and hit Mantine hard, and Flamethrower to hit Scizor if its a serious problem. Nidoking's gotten better due to bulky styles becoming more viable as a whole, as I said, and it being an incredible breaker of all. It also is no slouch against offense either, forcing switches very easily and any switch in getting dented by whatever coverage option you want to click. Overall, Nidoking's prominence against stall and balance, ability to force switch ins towards most of the meta, and coverage and power warrant a rise. This could easily get rejected tho lmao

    Also I agree with AloTales to A and Terrak to A-. Terrak's newfound versatility allows it to threaten most of the meta or support its team, and Double Dance is still all right as a set despite becoming an old staple. I think AloTales should go to A just because of how much support Veil offers to a team, turning threatening mons on their own such as Mega Shark, Hawlucha, and Nidoking into powerhouses that take a lot of brute force to kill. It's easily one of the best playstyles in the meta rn that helps out so many mons.
  8. Alfredo_Rivero

    Alfredo_Rivero

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    TERRAKION TO A- -- AGREE

    Terrakion has a good offensive typing, good attack and speed, has a lot of sets; Life orb, sash, double dance, etc., check a good amount of pokemon like Hydreigon, Mamoswine, M-Aerodactyl, etc. In general he is an excellent offensive pokemon that fulfills his function very efficiently, especially in offensive teams, so he should raise his rank.
  9. Sun

    Sun Let's watch this city burn the world!
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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    [​IMG]A- > A first of all, i want to talk about Mamoswine, everyone knows (i guess) that this pokemon is really really strong atm, the xurk ban is a point in favor to increase its usage, this wallbreaker puts a lot of pressure on offensive teams, its coverage its really scary for a lot of common pokemons in the tier the likes of Latias, Hydreigon, Bird Jesus, Cobalion, also, as esteemed user pokemon sparrow showed us with his RMT in the past weeks, Freeze dry plus Life orb could be very scary for bulky waters likes Swampert, Slowbro, Alomomola and Suicune. Mamoswine is always a good choice as rocker in an offensive team, since it puts pressure to common removers likes Tenta, Latias, Empoleon and Togekiss. Mamoswine also provides priority pressure with ice shard shutting down some pokemons like hydreigon, Latias, mega Pidgeot and Gliscor. Finally, i want to say that Mamo in my opinion deserves this rise because is a very solid wallbreaker, a well played mamoswine can open a lot of holes to bulkier teams.

    [​IMG] as eht said, it deserves a rise to B, this mon could be really hard to deal with because it can run many sets, from special , mixed and even sd physical offensive, in the suspect ladder i've used a lot the SD one, i love how much pressure he puts in against bulky waters and bulky teams, to solve the Scizor/Cobalion weakness i've used good special wallbreakers like specs chandelure and scarf hydreigon, this mon needs to be supported a bit to work effectively, a special set with hp fire can be used in order to lure Scizors coming in, i like also earthquake on it because its a good move in general, hits steel types likes coba and empoleon, and fire types in general.

    [​IMG]agree this pokemon is amazing at the moment, as pif said above it can run many various sets, the DD will be always the best choice in my opinion because it puts a lot of pressure to both offensive and defensive teams, rockium z also allows terrakion to break past defensive walls like alomomola after a SD boost, also it provides rocks, which is cool in some teams that need an offensive rocks setter to pressure removers as soon as possible, the choice scarf set is really interesting as revenge killer, it works a lot in hazard stack teams in my opinion because hazards helps terrakion to put a lot of pressure against foe's.

    Good night uuers.

  10. dingbat

    dingbat squeal
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Holy shit the B- rank is fucking loaded again

    [​IMG] B+ --> A: This is a no-brainer lmao. There's a reason why so many people are bitching about how Veil is broken and this goes without saying that this is the main culprit, with very few counter play measures against it because 109 Speed allows it to set up Veil before getting KO'd most of the time and it manages to threaten Defog users not called Empoleon (which it can Encore anyways).
    [​IMG] Meh: Definitely don't think this is as good as Suicune in this meta rn, but if anything...
    [​IMG] B+ --> A-: I wanted to mention this in the last thread but I forgot to, so here it is. Cune is not only really good in this meta, but also really fucking annoying to face if it manages to start setting up Sub + CMs and you don't have CM Latias, something that can either cripple it with Trick/Status, or knock its Leftovers off early on. Veil also makes this mon damn near unbreakable lmao, I've even started to run shit like Roar > Protect because of veil.
    [​IMG] B --> B-: Its Taunt set competes heavily with Gliscor, which can afford to run lots of speed investment because of its ability and is generally more annoying to face. It also folds to most of the top tier threats even with Foul Play right now which is an issue because of how offensively oriented this tier is.
    [​IMG] UR --> C-: Still a lot worse than Mowtom, but this 'mon is actually low-key annoying to face sometimes. As bad as Fire/Electric sounds right now, this 'mon can still check a unique set of threats like non-QA Scizor, Mamoswine, Mega-Aboma, Mega Pidgey, and Togekiss among others. Although it cannot threaten ground-types as much as Mowtom can, Overheat still dents most of them not called Swampert pretty hard, and if it opts to run fire-z, it ohkos Krook and Megalix and has the option to run HP Grass to threaten Swamp.
    [​IMG] UR --> C: Refer to the last post in that page in the last VR.
    [​IMG] UR --> C+: Also flew under the radar for a while, but we're starting to see some successful teams (meeps comin' to the rescue once again) with this 'mon because it can also set rocks and reliably check plenty of shit in this tier. Forms a good defensive core with Alomomola, and also the Diamond Storm buff (50% chance for +2 def instead of +1) is really cool.

    EDIT: SHOUTOUTS p2 FOR POINTING OUT THAT XURK IS BANNED
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  11. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Definitly agree with eht here. After laddering with based sunfish for the last set of reqs, I saw Alomomola's usefulness on a lot of teams. It walls pretty much any unboosted physical attacker, and threatens to burn the ones that setup on it. It also has use on more than just stall teams - I've seen it used on more offensively-geared teams with eject button. I probably wouldn't put it higher than B-tier though because similar to blissey, it's very passive for the most part, and its Special Bulk leaves much to be desired.

    [​IMG] from B+ to A - I also think this is a no-brainer. Aurora Veil is dumb, and the amount of pokemon that benefit greatly from Aurora Veil (Hawlucha, Suicune, Infernape, Xurkitree pre-ban) is stupidly high.

    [​IMG] B+ -> A-: I'm pretty on board with this one as well. Terrakion on first glance appears to have a lot of unfortunate weaknesses in the top tiers, but I think a lot of those mons are only checks rather than counters in actual practice. A lot of the bulky waters (Suicune, Swampert, Blastoise) don't have a great form of recovery (another bonus of using Alomomola!!!) and are prone to being worn down. Terrakion's STAB also hits a large portion of the tier neutrally, so if you give it even a little bit of breathing room, it threatens to punch a hole in your team. It's still weak to bullet punch, Mega Shark, and struggles vs Gliscor though, so I wouldn't say it's quite on the level of the A/A+ threats, though. Just enough flaws to keep it a level below them.

    Suicune moving up to A- is definitely something to consider, but I wonder if a large portion of Suicune's success is due to Aurora Veil rather than Suicune by itself. Aurora Veil turns it into a defensive setup machine that is stupidly hard to break, but I think it's much easier to break on teams that don't sacrifice a slot to run Veil.
    i like cute things likes this.
  12. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    [​IMG] to A-
    Mega Sceptile is a very underrated Pokemon right now, and it definitely deserves to be higher. It's typing is very good offensively, being dragon and grass. Keep in mind it's one of the best offensive grass Pokemon UU has right now, and grass types are great for Pokemon like Alomomola and other bulky waters. Here's some calcs that I think may make you agree with my proposal:

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 292-348 (85.1 - 101.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 602-710 (125.1 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 408-482 (136 - 160.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 240-283 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    As you can see, many of the tier's top threats cannot come in on Sceptile, as they just drop most of the time. I think this Pokemon is very underrated, and very good, and should rise to A- for the aforementioned reasons. The only reason it isn't higher is because it's bulk is very average, and can only take 1 or 2 hits from things at max.

    Edit: I know Sceptile runs Modest but I had Jolly merely for the fact that it shows it true power regardless of having a + nature :D.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  13. Moutemoute

    Moutemoute

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    [​IMG] to A- : DISAGREE

    • Firstable, Sceptile-Mega is never runs with Modest nature because it's outpseed by 80 BS Spe with Scarf which mean that Togekiss Scarf and Chandelure Scarf can easily RK it.

    • Secondly, Sceptile-Mega is way too weak too so much things, it has to switch vs so much things cuz' is typing is defensively pure trash (Ice Shard everywhere) :

    252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 316-376 (112.4 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 336-396 (119.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    68 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 300-352 (106.7 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 474-560 (168.6 - 199.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 434-512 (154.4 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Wing Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 332-392 (118.1 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Basically, Sceptile-Mega has to switch vs basically every fast Pokemon in the tier. Ice Coverage is pretty common, especially for Gliscor and that just rekt Sceptile-Mega. Even with 145 SpA BS, it can not kill what he wants cuz' it's best STAB can't be spammed because of the SpA drawback which mean that it force you to have a lot of 50/50. If you LS in a Scizor then HP Fire is trash and you had to switch if you don't want to be rekt :

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 69-81 (24.5 - 28.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
    -2 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 172-204 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Even with Sr residual damage you can't ensure a 100% OHKO on the most Scizor's frail set (I don't talk about the bulky one which basically don't care if you are at -2 SpA and has 12.5% to OHKO Sceptile-mega with 0 EV Atk U-turn).

    • Thirdly, Sceptile-Mega is a dead weigt vs Stall (even Sub Seed can't break through) and can't basically beat a lot of Bulky Pokemon like Amoongus, Blissey, Muk-A (which can trap it). It can not even beat on 1-1 some regular offensive Pokemon :

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raikou: 229-271 (71.3 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 276-328 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beedrill-Mega: 172-204 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 432-512 (153.7 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 180-213 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 422-500 (150.1 - 177.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 434-512 (154.4 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 220-259 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 360-426 (128.1 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Tldr : Sceptile-Mega is in my opinion one the worst Mega atm in UU. It needs too much support to be good.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  14. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    Hi, great post by the way, I really don't believe that Mega Sceptile should run Timid ever, because while you mention that Togekiss and Chandelure revenge kill, you would NEVER stay in on those Pokemon in the first place. Also, you bring up all these calcs that are pretty irrelevant, because of course Ice Shard OHKOs Mega Sceptile from anything. I like to run Modest because it nets KOs that Timid doesn't, such as OHKOing Latias without rocks up. In terms of the calcs, you're showing Pokemon that merely revenge kill Sceptile, but nothing that counters. That's the biggest flaw in your argument. My argument stated that Mega Sceptile has few counters, and you have proved that. Also, Scarf Togekiss is an unpokemon.
    selfiehater likes this.
  15. Nightingales

    Nightingales

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    Timid should be the common nature run, unless you want to lose to various base 80's, like Moute said. Modest gives you more power, but you guys are forgetting that it basically just needs to harass the hell out of offense and likes to have speed to do so.

    However, offense right now has too much counterplay, and its' lack of boosting moves on the special side screw it over against stall, so yeah. Don't raise it.
  16. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    But the only scarfer that's base 80 is Chandelure so I really don't see the issue. Of course Chandelure beats Mega Sceptile, but that's why you run support. All Pokemon need support. It also doesn't need a boosting move because it's raw power is already enough.
  17. Hilomilo

    Hilomilo High-low My-low
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    I can't help but take issue with a lot of the arguments you presented Yoshizilla315. Providing us with calcs of things that Sceptile can hit super effectively doesn't accurately represent its worth in the metagame, because as you even said yourself, anything that's getting hit super effectively by a move is going to take a good chunk of damage, so it isn't really a good argument. Modest Sceptile also isn't a good option most of the time, because in foregoing a Timid nature you are losing crucial speed ties against Choice Scarf Chandelure and Crobat, which are two increasingly relevant Pokemon in the metagame, while also losing which is otherwise a 50/50 chance to outspeed and OHKO Mega Beedrill in the event of a tie (this can be really important if Sceptile is your last Pokemon alive). As far as Mega Sceptile's viability in the metagame goes, I generally feel that it lacks the consistency of other offensive Grass-types, mainly Rotom-C and Celebi. Unlike Celebi, it isn't capable of boosting its power and has pretty pitiful bulk, and also can't achieve the calcs that Rotom-C can due to its inability to hold Choice Specs or Grassium Z. It's essentially forced to use HP Fire on all of its sets so it isn't walled by Scizor, but this means that it's going to miss out on two of Giga Drain, Focus Blast, and Earthquake, which can all be essential moves to fit onto a set. The prevalence of Choice Scarf-wielding Dragon-types and Ice Shard is also extremely troublesome for Mega Sceptile, whereas due to their better typings and bulk, Celebi and Rotom-C can more easily respond to these metagame trends (Celebi moreso in the case of Scarf Latias). Overall, Mega Sceptile's flaws and poor responses to a lot of recent metagame trends really hurt its matchup against offense, which is supposed to be its main strength, and I don't think anything has happened in the metagame for a rise to be justified.

    While I'm here, I would also like to go over a few things that I think could happen come this next update:

    [​IMG] Hawlucha up to A-/A
    Hawlucha is arguably the best in the tier at utilizing Aurora Veil, and has turned into one of the biggest thorns in the sides of literally any playstyle. It's able to capitalize on the free turns it gets from plenty of the tier's best Pokemon (mono-attacking Gliscor, Cobalion, Krookodile, Amoonguss, etc.) to easily set up with either Substitute or Swords Dance, and requires very intelligent play on the opponent's side to keep from flat out sweeping. Either of its STAB moves have a really good chance of OHKOing most offensive Pokemon after a Swords Dance boost, and can also do a number on the tier's majority of bulkier foes due to Hawlucha's ability to set up beyond +2 on the majority of Pokemon seen on defensive builds without too much of a problem. Generally, the biggest things going against Hawlucha are its poor power before setup and its vulnerability to priority, though its poor power is easily circumvented by its ability to force switches and easily nab an opportunity to set up as a result, while the priority weakness is taken care of with both Substitute and Aurora Veil. Hawlucha is definitely a top tier threat due to its prowess when equipped with Aurora Veil, and has easy ways of circumventing its common weaknesses, since its struggles against the likes of Sylveon and Doublade aren't too troublesome given the rarity of these mons.

    [​IMG] Sylveon up to B
    Although Sylveon fits best on Balance, lately it's been seeing some more use on bulky offensive teams due to its ability to easily exploit Hawlucha. Beyond just taking care of Hawlucha with extreme ease, Sylveon can also take care of a lot of Pokemon that have been quite troublesome to most team builders as of late, including Weavile, Krookodile, Mega Sharpedo, and Choice Scarfed Dragon-types. While Sylveon's vulnerability to prevalent threats in Scizor and SD Gliscor definitely hinders it, I've felt that its placement in B- has been understated for far too long given the large number of particularly troublesome offensive threats that it can keep at bay. Definitely deserves more recognition as the tier's best defensive Fairy-type, and has always just been a solid Wish passer in general.

    [​IMG] Rotom-C up to B+
    I'm aware of the fact that this thing just rose, though I think that in all honesty it's about as effective as an Electric-type as Raikou. The likes of Empoleon and Suicune have both been rising in viability and consistency lately, while bulky Ground-types like Gliscor and Hippowdon are still as annoying to break past as ever. The ability to easily pressure both bulky Ground- and Water-types with just one Pokemon is something that's becoming a lot more appreciated by team builders lately, and I also think that the combined viability of Rotom's Specs, Scarf, and Grassium Z sets gives it a lot of unpredictably and severely limits its defensive counterplay. It's definitely got its fair share of flaws, such as the average stats and poor Speed tier, though it's been proving lately that it's ability to form incredible VoltTurn cores with almost any U-turn user alongside its unpredictability between three very viable sets makes it about as good an Electric-type as Raikou, and certainly a Pokemon closer in viability to the likes of Nidoking and Tentacruel than Azelf and Jellicent. Overall just a super solid mon that's fairly easily to fit on teams and will almost always put in a good amount of work.

    Thanks for reading! Let me know what you guys thought of what I had to say, let's hope for some thought-provoking discussion in the weeks to come! :)
    Aaronboyer, Muscle K, Sun and 13 others like this.
  18. Demoness

    Demoness

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    so TIL, super effective attacks from powerful Pokemon can KO a Pokemon with mediocre defences. Wow, thats an amazing thing that i never would've known if you didn't calculate those out for me. It's not like thats the thing a lot of other offensive Pokemon have to do or anything /s.

    Also, nice, run that Ice Fang Gliscor when you could use Facade and instead deal more damage to like, everything that Ice Fang would aside from mega-Aerodactyl, which you either wall anyway, or get smacked with Aqua Tail, which means you don't want to stay in and hit with Ice Fang anyway. That alone makes your argument kinda just suspect to me because it sounds like you have no idea what is a good option on Gliscor in terms of moves.

    Like, sure, Mega-Sceptile shouldn't rise for legitimate reasons Hilomilo just made, but your reasoning is kinda just not good at all tbh.
    Mikael and Aldertz like this.
  19. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

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    I don't see why you're calling Modest Mega Sceptile bad because of Scarf Chandelure. That set is absolutely awful, and has no reason to be run over something like SubCM or Specs. Also, the calcs provided are a bit iffy, but I think it's always nice to see that a Pokemon beats Pokemon in higher ranks, which in my opinion, justifies the viability of a Pokemon.
  20. Bread_Wood

    Bread_Wood

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    Jan 11, 2015
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    I definitely agree with both hawlucha and sylveon rising. Lucha is a huge threat to offensive teams even without veil support, and is a great wincon with it, even against bulkier teams, since it can better afford to set up.

    I haven't seen enough rotom now to actually have an opinion, although it sounds good on paper. If someone's got a team built with it, I'd definitely give it a shot.
  21. MewBby

    MewBby

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    Jul 22, 2016
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    29
    Losing out on the chance to outspeed Mega-Bee and now being outsped by Crobat both suck. The extra power Modest provides is triumphed by what mons you outspeed when running Timid. Also: showing calcs of a mon beating mons it should beat adds nothing to the argument for rising it. Of course Mega-Sceptile beats water types, and of course it can kill a Latias.

    When making a nomination, it's advised to talk about what has changed meta-game wise to warrant the rise. For example, you could have addressed the surge in bulky water-types with the ban of Xurkitree, meaning Mega-Sceptile is inherently more threatening.

    Though in all honesty, Rotom-C does what Mega-Sceptile wants to do eons better due to access of a held item, a pretty dope defensive typing, and nice utility.

    tl;dr don't raise mega-scept

    also pokeisfun don't forget to banish electric tree!!!
    Reviloja753 likes this.
  22. Yoshizilla315

    Yoshizilla315

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    438
    But why would you want to out speed either of those haha? I don't get why you would try to beat Mega Beedrill or Crobat with Mega Sceptile.
  23. Venoxio

    Venoxio

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    264
    Even if you don't wanna 1v1 Mega Bee or Crobat with Mega Scept, it can do great damage to both and kill them after a bit of chip (considering both mons are weak to rocks it's not hard to chip them down anyway) with Dragon STAB. It also creeps Scarf Chandelure (which it also kills after a bit of chip) as a little thing, but in any case like said before Rotom-C does what Mega Sceptile does so much better and should definitely be ranked higher than the grass dragon. (also rotom-c doesn't die to ice shard and can 1v1 mamo somewhat well fwiw)
    Yoshizilla315 likes this.
  24. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,025
    Try this team http://pokepast.es/11ede3d71202f707:

    • Jolly Mega Beedrill with U-Turn, Poison Jab, Brick Break, Toxic Spikes (last two moves are for Veil and stall)
    • Rotom-C with Volt, Tbolt, Z Leaf Storm and Will o Wisp
    • Scarf Hydreigon with Fire Blast
    • Utility Gliscor with SR and U-Turn
    • Max HP and Attack CB Pursuit Superpower Scizor
    • Life Orb Analytic Rapid Spin Starmie with Hydro Pump, Psyshock and Ice Beam
    It's my current Volt Turn offense team and does quite well against most of the tier. I bet you could improve it as I just made it; for example it is quite Sharpedo Mega weak right now.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  25. Euphonos

    Euphonos ...and all I want to do is fly, just fly.
    is a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    927
    I would like to discuss some of the things worth discussing upon reading some of the posts after pif's:

    Mega Abomasnow: B- to B
    I started to appreciate using Mega Abomasnow lately during the Xurkiteee suspect, though I didn't use the Swords Dance or the Leech Seed set as most people would say. I used the ORAS classic Mixed Growth set and it is one of the most potent stall breakers ever graced. While Blizzard's power is not boosted by Hail, unfortunately, the boost provided by Growth is more than enough to deal potentially massive damage even to most Steel-types trying to catch such hits. This is one Pokemon I can attest worth having its viability raised.

    Mega Sceptile: B to B+ (at minimum)
    This is another Pokemon I started to appreciate during the Xurkitree suspect, and I feel it should have its viability raised as well. Don't get me wrong: giving Mega Sceptile a Modest nature loses its ability to tie with other Mega Sceptile and Mega Beedrill, but that is more than enough to dispose of most Water-type Pokemon very well. I feel very underwhelmed with the damage output it brings when I give Mega Sceptile a Timid nature; however, that nature works very well on Substitute + Leech Seed sets. I will definitely remain open to this nomination, though, since I really don't mind Mega Sceptile's viability not being raised at this time and of the same viability as Mega Abomasnow.

    (on a side note, Pak can attest how good Mega Sceptile is; I beat him three times with it during the suspect ladder)
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
    The Idealistic, Sun, Venoxio and 11 others like this.
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